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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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  #16  
Old 24th January 2008
OlyFlyer
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

I must say that this is not about stealing an image. That is a completely different, and far more serious thing, which I would definitely take to another level. This is about dowloading, editing and reposting an image on the same, or different thread without asking for permission to do so. This is OK by default according to the forum rules but not OK according to what I have been used to.

To prevent stealing and downloading images is possible, but then it would no longer be possible to include images, only to point to them using a link. If I wanted to do that, I could do that, but that kills some of the fun in foruming, the ability to see images directly, without having to click on a link.

As for only low resolution web images can be stolen and they are uselss, that is wrong. Web marketing is not new and in that case web size images are used. Even newspapers and magazines can without problems use the low res images, so regardless of resulution, a web sized image may even represent a bigger value than a full size image, depending on the use. But again, this is not about preventing stealing, it is more about politness, and reading the T&C, which I admittedly not done before joining, even if I normally am very careful, but missed this time. As it seems, I am not alone on this one, even if very few dare to admit it that being the case.

Just because one makes some images awailable for everyone to see does not make them a free, public property. Anybody walking passed my garden can see my garden, plants, flowers, childrens toys, furniture or whatever is there at the moment of walking. That does not mean it is free to take, not even if something is reachable without entering. It's OK for anybody to have a look, that's all. I could buid a high fence to prevent taking anything, and could have some ugly big and angry dogs to guard my property, but I don't. I prefer it that way, and at the same time I am aware that I am taking some risks, which is not the same as I have to accept if something gets stolen. Of course, I would be angry. I think that is the way everybody sees his home, garden and every other property he/she is posessing. I know some people don't see photographs on the Internet that way, which I thing is a sad negative evolution of moral. But that is a different discussion all together.
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  #17  
Old 24th January 2008
BigD
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

i think the tick box would be the best idea indeed, im quite happy for people to edit my pictures IF there reposting them with what and how they've improved them, as im still learning and photography is mainly a hobby for me.
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  #18  
Old 27th January 2008
Ellie Ellie is offline
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

No no, oh goodness me, I know there's no guarantee on the internet but I don't think this is about stealing pictures - which is done in secret. I know how easy it is for people to use/get an image even with the right click disabled because I've been shown how. (No, I won't do it, it was to show how easy it is). All it takes is a bit of time and effort, and with resizing software it's possible to get a usable image. It hasn't put me off putting pictures online, but now I'm more aware of what can happen to them.

If I see a place (forum/folder) where it says clearly that a picture can/might be downloaded and edited by others 'for critique' then it's up to me whether to post something there or not. Anywhere else I would prefer to be asked.
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  #19  
Old 28th January 2008
E-P1 fan
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

Agree Ellie.

The sort of person who is going to deliberately 'steal' someone else's image and pass it off as their own, or make major changes to an image without the originator having any say in that, is going to do that anyway.

Seems to me the only sensible attitude to take is to realise that anything you put on the internet is fair game to other people and unless you are using special bespoke encryption and copy protection software, any image you post is capable of being used by someone else. Even with special software someone will get past it if they want something badly enough.

As long as the purpose is a personal one, for non-profit motives, I don't personally see much of a problem. If I was really precious about my photos, regarded them solemnly as 'my work' and was paranoid about letting them out into the air - I just wouldn't put them on the internet and I certainly wouldn't post them up in a forum. I'm not that arrogant about what I currently produce

It's bit like with children I think. As parents you are always trying to run the right balance between sending them off into the world complete with a set of life-skills and ethics which will help them survive and prosper in an environment that can be hostile - and at the other extreme - being well aware of the risk of keeping them at home, blighting their lives by making them unable to interact with others - virtual prisoners - safe but trapped.

If a Nepalese herdsman wants to have an image of mine as their screensaver - I'd be really pleased. If some less than scrupulous image company was passing my pics off as their own - I'd be pretty cheesed off and want to follow that up - but I don't think the chances of that happening are very likely.

It's risk assessment. All the terms and conditions in the world won't stop someone from 'taking' an internet image and doing what they will with it.
If you don't like it, I respectfully suggest that a return to pre-internet days might be in order for you - where you are the undisputed owner and gatekeeper of the original and where people only see copies which you personally have produced.

However those who have only known the opportunities offered by the internet may find it hard to realise how hard it used to be to get your work seen by ANYONE in pre-internet times!
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  #20  
Old 28th January 2008
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Melaka Melaka is offline
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

I suspect I'm not alone in not having read the T&C sufficiently carefully before signing up. If nothing else, this thread has brought the problem to light. It certainly wasn't my intention when I posted my photos that they should be available for anyone to download, although I welcome constructive comment.

What in essence we're being invited to do is to sign away the copyright of any photos posted to the site. It doesn't matter whether you're a pro or an amateur, in most cases you will own the copyright of your photos and should be asked before anyone else uses them for any purpose. I regard myself as an amateur but I do get a dozen or so photos published each year and am very diligent in ensuring I get paid for them.

A couple of years ago a photographer friend had several of his photos lifted without his approval from a web site and used by a company in its publicity material. He was pretty irritated, took a tough line and eventually the offending company was obliged to give him goods to the value of over 2,000 for breach of copyright. If they'd asked permission they'd have paid peanuts by comparison.

It's irrelevant to say that because security can be circumvented and photos downloaded without authority that it doesn't matter. It's up to the copyright holder to decide whether he wishes to pursue the matter but if by default download is allowed he cannot do so.

I believe the default positon to be set to NO and that anyone wishing to download photos for whatever reason should seek the approval of the owner.
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  #21  
Old 28th January 2008
OlyFlyer
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaka View Post
I suspect I'm not alone in not having read the T&C sufficiently carefully before signing up. If nothing else, this thread has brought the problem to light. It certainly wasn't my intention when I posted my photos that they should be available for anyone to download, although I welcome constructive comment.

What in essence we're being invited to do is to sign away the copyright of any photos posted to the site. It doesn't matter whether you're a pro or an amateur, in most cases you will own the copyright of your photos and should be asked before anyone else uses them for any purpose. I regard myself as an amateur but I do get a dozen or so photos published each year and am very diligent in ensuring I get paid for them.

A couple of years ago a photographer friend had several of his photos lifted without his approval from a web site and used by a company in its publicity material. He was pretty irritated, took a tough line and eventually the offending company was obliged to give him goods to the value of over 2,000 for breach of copyright. If they'd asked permission they'd have paid peanuts by comparison.

It's irrelevant to say that because security can be circumvented and photos downloaded without authority that it doesn't matter. It's up to the copyright holder to decide whether he wishes to pursue the matter but if by default download is allowed he cannot do so.

I believe the default positon to be set to NO and that anyone wishing to download photos for whatever reason should seek the approval of the owner.
This is something I agree to 100% with.

In fact, just a few days before the event which triggered this thread, I had a discussion about this with my 18 year old son. He had the position that as long as nobody makes money on my images, it is OK to use them, edit them, download them and so on. I made it quite clear to him that just because something is easy, or available to take is not the same as it is free to do so without obligations. I may let Person A do anything with my images, while Person B may only edit some of them, and Person C may not touch them at all. To generally allow anyone to do anything with the images is not something which is normally regarded as OK, regardless of the purpose. Even if my images would be used for charity I would like to be asked for permission in advance each time.
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  #22  
Old 28th January 2008
ajwh ajwh is offline
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

Well, speaking as one accused of having stolen images......

Over on DpReview I received an e-mail accusing me of having a stolen image on my PBase website. It was a bit of a shock....

When I checked, it was an image which someone had posted in the OlySLR forum on the lines of "what is the matter with this?". I and several others played with it, in my case adjusting the curve, and to show the difference, I had to host it on PBase (carefully putting it in a "miscellaneous folder" labelled that it was for the purposes of forum discussion).

Yes - I suppose it was "stealing" in one sense - and I removed it - but how ellse can one respond?

Andrew

(PS - the complaint came about 2 years after the original posting)
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  #23  
Old 28th January 2008
OlyFlyer
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

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Originally Posted by ajwh View Post
Yes - I suppose it was "stealing" in one sense - and I removed it - but how ellse can one respond?
By not participating. You knew it was not your image and probably even knew the copiright owner was not asked. It is not a requirement to participate in every thread, I skip participating if not to my taste, or report to admin if against the rules or regulations.

Stealing an image is ALWAYS against the rules, and as I said that is not the subject of the debate here, because that can NEVER be OK, regardless of which purpose the image is used for. But, I have to admit, I did not read ALL the T&C of DPR. Some rules are well hidden.
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  #24  
Old 28th January 2008
ajwh ajwh is offline
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

NO - the copyright author did know! He posted the image, then looked at the modified image I posted showing that there was more image detail in the shadows than had revealed by his processing, and responded to my comments - and those of others in the thread, some of whom had posted other variations with different processing.

You could argue that he didn't realise that in order for me to display the modified image, I would have had to save it somewhere else in the web.....
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  #25  
Old 29th January 2008
Ellie Ellie is offline
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

Quote:
I regard myself as an amateur but I do get a dozen or so photos published each year and am very diligent in ensuring I get paid for them.
I wish! Everybody who asks if they can use pictures from my site expects to get them for nothing.
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  #26  
Old 29th January 2008
OlyFlyer
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajwh View Post
NO - the copyright author did know! He posted the image, then looked at the modified image I posted showing that there was more image detail in the shadows than had revealed by his processing, and responded to my comments - and those of others in the thread, some of whom had posted other variations with different processing.

You could argue that he didn't realise that in order for me to display the modified image, I would have had to save it somewhere else in the web.....
Than there was nothing wrong, except maybe hosting the image. On the other hand, it is not possible to post an image on DPR without hosting it somewhere else, since they don't have a gallery.
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  #27  
Old 29th January 2008
OlyFlyer
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

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Originally Posted by Ellie View Post
I wish! Everybody who asks if they can use pictures from my site expects to get them for nothing.
That's just it, normally I have no problem if people ask.
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  #28  
Old 4th March 2008
OlyFlyer
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

I guess since the discussion about the T&C wording is forgotten (last post is over a month old), there is not going to be any change about this question.

It's a pitty IMO.
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  #29  
Old 4th March 2008
BigD
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

cant you just add on your thread that you dont want the picture copied/saved unless asked.
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  #30  
Old 4th March 2008
PeterD
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Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions

Perhaps this is something for John (Music Man) to consider. He can work with Ian to decide what to do.

PeterD
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