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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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  #16  
Old 8th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

Short memories Folks - Not long ago you couldn't take any photos in NT Buildings. I agree that if they own and have to maintain the Asset, then they have a right to pursue commercial use of their Asset. However like all things, reason has to prevail. Silly or inappropriate charges = less revenue.


NT has a bad reputation for many things so this will not help their case.
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Old 8th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

When I saw this, I thought it might be the decision of the NT to enforce the decision to make volunteers wear their LGTBQPNF badges. If you want to know what the PNF stands for, don't ask - very un-PC.

The NT decision makers have reigned back on this, they have been quite absurd. What next, charge us for breathing the air while on their land? Presumably, photographers have paid through either subscription or entry fee, surely that should be enough?

Incidentally, there is no requirement to charge VAT until an annual turnover of 83,000 is reached, I suspect that the income of most pro photographers falls well below this figure.

David
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Old 8th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

I didn't renew my NT membership some donkey's years ago as they stopped photography inside the buildings. Have they reversed that now?

Anyway, 400 per hour. At 1/50th to 1/1000th second per shot I don't think it would amount to very much.
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Old 8th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

Sad to say, but the NT became anti-photographer years ago as reported in EPUK http://www.epuk.org/news/simon-norfolk-national-trust

Sure they need to raise money and clearly they can make their own rules inside their properties, but they go after the libraries getting them to remove pictures taken from the public highway as well

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Re: National Trust

Seems a lot are missing the point. I doubt very much if the NT is going to charge any non-commercial visitors for taking photos nor did I see any wording in the article that suggested it would be.

The main subject of the article relates to an un-named professional photographer the author happens to know who makes the claim of 400 per hour being suggested. This of course has to be true because it was stated on the Internet ! The other matter relates to name copyright and has nothing to do with photography by visitors.

Where the NT may require a fee is if a photographer wants to spend time on their property videoing or taking photos for commercial purposes. Likewise the NT may pursue images appearing in the media where a fee has been received by the photographer. As regards photos taken from the public road..... is it a public road or again owned by the NT ?

Images appearing in commercial online libraries are exactly as stated COMMERCIAL, taken by professionals and liable to fees from the landowner.

If you are on private property and take photographs for commercial gain you have to expect to pay for the privilege.

This has nothing to do with ordinary private non- commercial visitors to NT property. It's just being blown up to a ridiculous level.

John
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  #21  
Old 8th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

I have been following a similar discussion on Facebook, and I am little the wiser as there is so much misinformation being banded about.

Firstly, I would be interested to see the National Trust's Constitution, because at present I am not entirely sure how legal their current position is. I had always understood that National Trust land and properties belonged to the nation, (i.e. all of us), but that NT members had certain benefits such as access to houses and closed estates which non-members don't. Likewise English Heretics.

But does that make it Private Land? I don't think so.

What puzzles me is that Trust pays selected photographers serious money to photograph their properties and estates in the interests of gaining publicity, and yet they seek to charge other commercial photographers for doing exactly the same thing?

I could understand it if said professionals demanded exclusive access, but not otherwise. Equally I fully accept that it is reasonable for the Trust not to want their properties overrun by professional photographers trying to grab that killer shot when there are paying members just wanting to relax and enjoy themselves.

The NT may have some rights to restrict access and/or charge for access, but given the purpose of the NT any such restrictions and/or charges must be seen to be 'reasonable' otherwise it could be argued that the Trust's trustees are failing in their duty to the nation as set out in their stated aims and objectives.

If, for example, the NT decided that wanted to restrict access to all of its land it would probably be in contravention of several acts of parliament.

Ultimately I suspect the Trust's jurisdiction over what happens on its open land will at some point be tested and clarified in the courts.
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  #22  
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Re: National Trust

The National Trust constitution is fully documented and available as a PDF file.

Just search "national trust constitution"

I haven't read it yet

Regards,

John
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Re: National Trust

Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

I spent ages looking on their site and still didn't find what I wanted.

Like you I haven't read it all yet, but searches for the words 'camera' and 'photography' have come up blank.
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Re: National Trust

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

I spent ages looking on their site and still didn't find what I wanted.

Like you I haven't read it all yet, but searches for the words 'camera' and 'photography' have come up blank.
I'm sure you are far better qualified to trawl through the legal jargon than myself Nigel but I would be interested to see what conclusions you are able to arrive at

Regards,

John
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Old 8th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

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Originally Posted by sapper View Post
If I were a member I would certainly be writing to the trustees re this decision. The NT has not had good publicity these last few days.
I stopped my membership in the early '90s over some long forgotten issue. The NT has been having bad publicity for the past quarter century.
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Re: National Trust

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Originally Posted by David M View Post
I stopped my membership in the early '90s over some long forgotten issue. The NT has been having bad publicity for the past quarter century.
Not much point in you being a member now David, youre 3.5 thousand miles away. Besides you will be too busy with the BBPS

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Re: National Trust

From the NT Acts 1907 - 1971:

Section 30.-
(1) The National Trust may make such reasonable charges for the admission of the public to any of the property of the National Trust or any part or parts thereof or for the use by the public of any such property as they may from time to time determine.

Power to charge for admission to Trust property.

(2) The National Trust shall not make charges for admission to any common or commonable land or to any other property of the Trust to which the public had a right of access at the date when such property was acquired by the National Trust or the Association except such part or parts of such common or commonable land as may be from time to time set apart under the provisions of and for the purposes specified in subsection (F) of the section of this Act of which the marginal note is "Powers exerciseable over certain Trust property."

varied by N.T. Act 1971 sec. 23(3).

(3) The National Trust may make such reasonable charges as they may from time to time determine in respect of the playing of games sailing boating bathing and fishing and other forms of recreation on any lands or property or waterway of the National Trust.


The reading continues but the above seems reasonable enough to me and certainty doesn't suggest the NT is just waiting to fleece anyone.
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  #28  
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Re: National Trust

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
From the NT Acts 1907 - 1971:

Section 30.-
(1) The National Trust may make such reasonable charges for the admission of the public to any of the property of the National Trust or any part or parts thereof or for the use by the public of any such property as they may from time to time determine.

Power to charge for admission to Trust property.

(2) The National Trust shall not make charges for admission to any common or commonable land or to any other property of the Trust to which the public had a right of access at the date when such property was acquired by the National Trust or the Association except such part or parts of such common or commonable land as may be from time to time set apart under the provisions of and for the purposes specified in subsection (F) of the section of this Act of which the marginal note is "Powers exerciseable over certain Trust property."

varied by N.T. Act 1971 sec. 23(3).

(3) The National Trust may make such reasonable charges as they may from time to time determine in respect of the playing of games sailing boating bathing and fishing and other forms of recreation on any lands or property or waterway of the National Trust.


The reading continues but the above seems reasonable enough to me and certainty doesn't suggest the NT is just waiting to fleece anyone.
I suppose if the constitution hasn't been updated recently, it is not very likely you will find anything relating to commercial photography and the rights to charge. The thirst for images both private and commercial within the media must have increased dramatically over the years and is perhaps what has prompted the current situation. I would doubt if "other forms of recreation" would cover commercial photography. I'm sure there will be some clause buried somewhere that can be deemed to cover it.

Regards,

John
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Old 9th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

I read that article as "Professional photographer wants to use NT property as location for professional photoshoot". "NT responds with quite high, but not necessarily unreasonable charges to use their property as a location". For all I know that charge includes closing access to the public and a team of people on site.
The photographer would like to use the location for free while the maintenance is done at someone else's expense. I'm sure they're working for nothing as are the other participants.

All the guff about pursuing dead photographers for damages struck me as complete b.. hearsay.

Fake news.
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  #30  
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Re: National Trust

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Originally Posted by AMc View Post
I read that article as "Professional photographer wants to use NT property as location for professional photoshoot". "NT responds with quite high, but not necessarily unreasonable charges to use their property as a location". For all I know that charge includes closing access to the public and a team of people on site.
The photographer would like to use the location for free while the maintenance is done at someone else's expense. I'm sure they're working for nothing as are the other participants.

All the guff about pursuing dead photographers for damages struck me as complete b.. hearsay.

Fake news.
If a professional photographer wants to use a NT estate or building for a photo-shoot I believe it is entirely reasonable that they should pay a charge for this. Even with vast numbers of volunteer staff the NT doesn't run on fresh air.

However, any charges for photography should be 'reasonable' and proportionate to the work involved, and not arbitrarily dreamt up by local estate managers. Indeed, I think this may be where the NT has created bad press recently: If there was a clear policy set out as to what was allowed where, how much it cost and where to pay I think it would go a long way to calming everyone's fears that the NT is about to ban professional photography in the Lake District or wherever.

Professional film and television productions should of course pay proportionate commercial rates as they would do elsewhere, although I would hope that the Trust will be mindful that any kind of professional filming or photography provides very good publicity at little or no actual cost.
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