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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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  #1  
Old 2nd August 2008
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Zuiko Zuiko is offline
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The Judge

A certain junior member of this Forum, who has self-styled himself "The Judge," has recently ruffled a few feathers with his no nonsense but rather condesending comments in which he purports to speak from a position of authority.

I suspect that the majority here do not need a judge, but rather a friendly word of advice, guidence or informed opinion. The reason that we do not need a judge is that, deep in our hearts, we are our own Judge, our own worst critic and we know when we have tried our best or not given our all. But, in order to improve at anything in life, not just photography, we have to take risks and sometimes that incurrs the ridicule of our peers and, worst of all, the wrath of our inner Judge. But whatever scorn we recieve for our failures, that pales into insignificance to the contempt we feel for ourselves if we squander our chances, waste our talents and don't even try!

Some years ago I wrote a poem that reflected these thoughts, at a time when I was feeling very bitter towards myself for a lack of courage in my own convictions. I guess I'm taking a risk now in exposing this to the mercy of public ridicule, but here goes:-

Life is a gift, a precious thing
A part on stage to play
A sheet of paper clean and white
To write the book your way
A tale of reckless gambles
Of chance, of win or lose
Or boring safety, take no risks
It is for you to choose

Just think which book you'd rather read
If the tale were not your own
One of squandered chances (yawn)
Not straying far from home
Or packed with high adventure
Each page a store of wealth
Of treasures seen, of new things done
You'd like to do yourself

To set a course on chartered seas
Is the tempting, easy way
Making sure you cannot fail
The same routine each day
Settle for obscurity
In comfort, snug and warm
Have only mediocre aims
From the day you're born

Though long your life might seem just now
There will come, at last, a day
When it is time to judge yourself
And the Judge will surely say
"Stand still while I pass sentance
And look me in the eye
You had the chance, you didn't fail
YOU DIDN'T EVEN TRY!"


So you see, Mr self-styled judge, you are not needed. There is within everyone of us a much more severe contempory of your kind. What we do need is a friend to offer guidence, support and encouragement, with the example of his own pictures when appropriate.

Thank you.
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  #2  
Old 2nd August 2008
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Graham_of_Rainham Graham_of_Rainham is offline
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Thumbs up Re: The Judge

This has to be one of the best and most considered responses I have ever seen.

I totally agree with all you have said and congratulate you on having posted this

Regards
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  #3  
Old 2nd August 2008
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Re: The Judge

I've had similar thoughts over the last few days but being a true northerner I tend to articulate them with little or no censorship, so I bit my lip! I'm all for constructive critisism, but do not see a place on these forums for the type of rudeness that is displayed in his replies.

Where are his pictures for others to view, or is the soul purpose of his presence here to upset people?
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Old 2nd August 2008
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Nick Temple-Fry Nick Temple-Fry is offline
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Re: The Judge

John

I wouldn't let the judge ruffle your feathers, underneath that scratchy wig is a man sitting all day on his piles.

The most important judgements are made by the jury, and here the jury consists of those who contribute to the group by submitting pictures.

And we are lucky here, a marvellous and generous collection of oddballs, eccentrics and individuals. None of us would know what to do with a soapbox, except to photograph it.

Nick
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Old 2nd August 2008
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Re: The Judge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Temple-Fry View Post
John

I wouldn't let the judge ruffle your feathers, underneath that scratchy wig is a man sitting all day on his piles.

The most important judgements are made by the jury, and here the jury consists of those who contribute to the group by submitting pictures.

And we are lucky here, a marvellous and generous collection of oddballs, eccentrics and individuals. None of us would know what to do with a soapbox, except to photograph it.

Nick
Spot on, I agree totally.

Regards - Paul
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  #6  
Old 2nd August 2008
fulhamphil
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Re: The Judge

I agree with all of the above, having been a "victim" of the judge myself, constructive critiscm is always welcome darn right ignorance isn't. By the way i did question his need to offer himself up as a self styled judge, and asked him if he was so perfect it would be nice to marvel at his efforts, i'm still waiting for his perfect pictures to appear.
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  #7  
Old 2nd August 2008
tlove
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Re: The Judge

I'm glad someone started this post - consider my feathers to be well and truly ruffled, and I haven't even posted anything recently!

A very good set of responses though - I totally agree with them all. I took the liberty of having a look at all threads posted by him/her. I had a job to see anything constructive in what this person has said about other people's work, yet have not posted any of his/her own for consideration - not that (I think) any of us would be so rude about them.

Belittling and demeaning other people's efforts is not what this site is about, and I hope the person concerned will get the message and either engage brain before starting to type, or if we're not high-brow enough for them, go and find another forum to annoy.

I invite 'The Judge' to read what it says on the Forum Index, under Photo Fair (where the majority of this person's 'comments' have been posted). It says, and I quote:

"Post your photos for friendly, non-critical feedback. This is the place to show pictures if you aren't yet ready for full-blooded critique, or simply want to share an interesting picture with other e-group visitors".

Being 'A Judge' I presume they think themselves an intelligent and articulate person, so how come they can't read?

Sorry folks, feathers now unruffled again!

p.s. If I get banned for this response, it's been nice knowing you all !!
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Old 2nd August 2008
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Re: The Judge

I have been tempted to say all the things that you all have said and I agree with you 100%. I did not take the bait earlier as I recall a similar incident earlier in the year when I was called too sensitive. Maybe thats whats wrong, not all of are sensitive to others and comments are always better received with a touch of it.
I do not wish to add to The Judge's feelings of superiority over others so I shall sign off now. His ego is bigger than all of ours put together already.

Peter
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Old 2nd August 2008
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Re: The Judge

I worry about posting a in a "flame" type thread like this because it drags me down to a level I don't like to go to, but sometimes you have to set standards.

The site rules say constructive criticism - if you can't don't
Comment on Image not topic - that's not your privilege

I see you for what you are.

You see if our friend really was a judge he would have been trained in the psychology of dealing with people and would know that what he's doing is counterproductve. What he looks more like is a self confident junior having a laugh at the expense of his betters because he know's he can. And like most young bullies he's probably sitting around his PC with a smile on his face seeing what the results of his bullying tactics are.

Regards
Andy
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  #10  
Old 2nd August 2008
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Re: The Judge

Have to agree with everything that has been said so far. The thing that annoys me the most is this Judge thing (Where is this guy coming from) He is not going to be my Judge nor do I think he is going to be anybody elses. As somebody else said he has not had a good word to say about any of the work he has JUDGED.

So now for some no holes barred Judgment WHO EVER YOU ARE GET A LIFE STOP READING SO MANY MAGAZINES AND LEARN TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, AND WHILE YOUR AT IT LEARN SOME MANNERS!

Over and Out!!
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  #11  
Old 2nd August 2008
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Re: The Judge

I fully agree with everyine's comments too.

Zuiko, that's a spot on poem, so apt to all areas in life.

Cheers
Susan
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Old 2nd August 2008
Jim Ford Jim Ford is online now
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Re: The Judge

An art critic doesn't have to be an artist to give a valid assessment of a piece of art, and a literary critic doesn't have to be an author to do the same for written work. In the same way, "The Judge" doesn't have to be a good photographer to provide valid criticism of images on this site - his photographic skills are largely irrelevant.

I'd agree that the tone of his postings tends to be rather direct, condesending and tending to sneering, but as I've stated before, I'd rather see this than the unqualified gushing praise that I've often noted in response to frankly indifferent images.

As far as I'm concerned, he (or anyone else for that matter) can give me his best shot on any of my images in my gallery!

Jim
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Old 2nd August 2008
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Re: The Judge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
An art critic doesn't have to be an artist to give a valid assessment of a piece of art, and a literary critic doesn't have to be an author to do the same for written work. In the same way, "The Judge" doesn't have to be a good photographer to provide valid criticism of images on this site - his photographic skills are largely irrelevant.

I'd agree that the tone of his postings tends to be rather direct, condesending and tending to sneering, but as I've stated before, I'd rather see this than the unqualified gushing praise that I've often noted in response to frankly indifferent images.

As far as I'm concerned, he (or anyone else for that matter) can give me his best shot on any of my images in my gallery!

Jim
Jim

You are of course right that you don't necessarily have to be good at something to comment on it and that there may be compliments that are undue on some images.

May be we should have a thread on judging and commenting style as a fran and open debate.

Like you I invite comments because I claim absolutely no artistc capability. I think I understand the technical stuff well enough, but then again I may be deluded. But you can be honest with out being rude

Regards
Andy
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4/3 E500, E510, E30 + 35macro, 50macro, 7-14, 11-22, 14-45 (x2), 14-54, 40-150 (both types), 50-200, 70-300, 50-500,
m 4/3 EM1MkII + 60 macro, 12-100 Pro
FL20, FL36 x2 , FL50, cactus slaves etc.
The Boss (Mrs Shenstone) E620, EM10-II, 14-41Ez, 40-150R, 9 cap and whatever she can nick from me when she wants it

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http://landroverkaty.blogspot.com/
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Old 2nd August 2008
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Re: The Judge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
An art critic doesn't have to be an artist to give a valid assessment of a piece of art, and a literary critic doesn't have to be an author to do the same for written work. In the same way, "The Judge" doesn't have to be a good photographer to provide valid criticism of images on this site - his photographic skills are largely irrelevant.

I'd agree that the tone of his postings tends to be rather direct, condesending and tending to sneering, but as I've stated before, I'd rather see this than the unqualified gushing praise that I've often noted in response to frankly indifferent images.

As far as I'm concerned, he (or anyone else for that matter) can give me his best shot on any of my images in my gallery!

Jim
I understand your thoughts here Jim but I think that the manner in which our ideas and comments are made is relevant.
Over recent months I have had the privilege of being mentored by a Fellow from the Royal Photographic Society. As you would expect, he really knows his stuff and does not hold back on criticism of my work, however he has never once put me down, been condescending or even suggested that he is 'better' than me. When I look back at some of the images I showed him early on I am now embarrased but at the time he simply pointed me in the right direction, consequently my photography and as he puts it 'my seeing eye' has improved.
When on a forum like this we dont know the people we are talking to or at what stage they are at, I suspect that had I received criticism in the manner that has been offered by The Judge had been offered to me in the first tentative postings, I would have agreed I was no good and given up, if it was offered to me now I would have sufficient confidence to take the comments on board, I have sufficient understanding of my own work to enable me see how I can incorporate improvements into my own work whilst appreciating that it doesnt mean that I am no good at photography, indeed I enjoy tough comments as I can see how they can help me move forward.
Sadly some people enjoy putting others down and the attention that comes from this and I have seen other good sites degenerate into slanging matches as a result of such contributions. Let us all not let this happen here, its a fabulous site where I, and many others, have received very constructive critique and been encouraged in the hobby we all enjoy.
I hope I have expressed my thoughts in away that is helpful to the deabate. I would like to see The Judge continue to offer constructive criticism but to temper the way in which this is offered.
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  #15  
Old 2nd August 2008
B.P.S Studios
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Re: The Judge

Shirley Makes a very good point here and I agree with her fully on this. I too have the pleasure of being mentored by an SWPP member and not once has he tried to put down me or my work. Critque only means something when you benefit from it otherwise it means nothing. But the manner in which it is given is just as important as its content.

While I would agree with Jim on his post I would say that Critque should be based on sound knowledge and experience not on opinion.

As Clint Eastwood once said, "Opinions are like asssholes, everybody has one"
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