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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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  #16  
Old 8th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

Sad to say, but the NT became anti-photographer years ago as reported in EPUK http://www.epuk.org/news/simon-norfolk-national-trust

Sure they need to raise money and clearly they can make their own rules inside their properties, but they go after the libraries getting them to remove pictures taken from the public highway as well

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Old 8th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

I have been following a similar discussion on Facebook, and I am little the wiser as there is so much misinformation being banded about.

Firstly, I would be interested to see the National Trust's Constitution, because at present I am not entirely sure how legal their current position is. I had always understood that National Trust land and properties belonged to the nation, (i.e. all of us), but that NT members had certain benefits such as access to houses and closed estates which non-members don't. Likewise English Heretics.

But does that make it Private Land? I don't think so.

What puzzles me is that Trust pays selected photographers serious money to photograph their properties and estates in the interests of gaining publicity, and yet they seek to charge other commercial photographers for doing exactly the same thing?

I could understand it if said professionals demanded exclusive access, but not otherwise. Equally I fully accept that it is reasonable for the Trust not to want their properties overrun by professional photographers trying to grab that killer shot when there are paying members just wanting to relax and enjoy themselves.

The NT may have some rights to restrict access and/or charge for access, but given the purpose of the NT any such restrictions and/or charges must be seen to be 'reasonable' otherwise it could be argued that the Trust's trustees are failing in their duty to the nation as set out in their stated aims and objectives.

If, for example, the NT decided that wanted to restrict access to all of its land it would probably be in contravention of several acts of parliament.

Ultimately I suspect the Trust's jurisdiction over what happens on its open land will at some point be tested and clarified in the courts.
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  #18  
Old 8th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

I spent ages looking on their site and still didn't find what I wanted.

Like you I haven't read it all yet, but searches for the words 'camera' and 'photography' have come up blank.
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Old 8th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

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Originally Posted by sapper View Post
If I were a member I would certainly be writing to the trustees re this decision. The NT has not had good publicity these last few days.
I stopped my membership in the early '90s over some long forgotten issue. The NT has been having bad publicity for the past quarter century.
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Old 8th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

From the NT Acts 1907 - 1971:

Section 30.-
(1) The National Trust may make such reasonable charges for the admission of the public to any of the property of the National Trust or any part or parts thereof or for the use by the public of any such property as they may from time to time determine.

Power to charge for admission to Trust property.

(2) The National Trust shall not make charges for admission to any common or commonable land or to any other property of the Trust to which the public had a right of access at the date when such property was acquired by the National Trust or the Association except such part or parts of such common or commonable land as may be from time to time set apart under the provisions of and for the purposes specified in subsection (F) of the section of this Act of which the marginal note is "Powers exerciseable over certain Trust property."

varied by N.T. Act 1971 sec. 23(3).

(3) The National Trust may make such reasonable charges as they may from time to time determine in respect of the playing of games sailing boating bathing and fishing and other forms of recreation on any lands or property or waterway of the National Trust.


The reading continues but the above seems reasonable enough to me and certainty doesn't suggest the NT is just waiting to fleece anyone.
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Old 9th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

I read that article as "Professional photographer wants to use NT property as location for professional photoshoot". "NT responds with quite high, but not necessarily unreasonable charges to use their property as a location". For all I know that charge includes closing access to the public and a team of people on site.
The photographer would like to use the location for free while the maintenance is done at someone else's expense. I'm sure they're working for nothing as are the other participants.

All the guff about pursuing dead photographers for damages struck me as complete b.. hearsay.

Fake news.
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  #22  
Old 9th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

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Originally Posted by AMc View Post
I read that article as "Professional photographer wants to use NT property as location for professional photoshoot". "NT responds with quite high, but not necessarily unreasonable charges to use their property as a location". For all I know that charge includes closing access to the public and a team of people on site.
The photographer would like to use the location for free while the maintenance is done at someone else's expense. I'm sure they're working for nothing as are the other participants.

All the guff about pursuing dead photographers for damages struck me as complete b.. hearsay.

Fake news.
If a professional photographer wants to use a NT estate or building for a photo-shoot I believe it is entirely reasonable that they should pay a charge for this. Even with vast numbers of volunteer staff the NT doesn't run on fresh air.

However, any charges for photography should be 'reasonable' and proportionate to the work involved, and not arbitrarily dreamt up by local estate managers. Indeed, I think this may be where the NT has created bad press recently: If there was a clear policy set out as to what was allowed where, how much it cost and where to pay I think it would go a long way to calming everyone's fears that the NT is about to ban professional photography in the Lake District or wherever.

Professional film and television productions should of course pay proportionate commercial rates as they would do elsewhere, although I would hope that the Trust will be mindful that any kind of professional filming or photography provides very good publicity at little or no actual cost.
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Old 9th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

Agreed what set my alarm bells ringing was this paragraph:
"A commercial photographer who was planning to shoot some action photographs for an outdoor publication on crags which fall within one of the NT’s extensive Snowdonia estates, has been quoted £250 to £400 per hour to carry out his assignment."
(My emphasis)

That suggests to me that there may be some risks involved. If you want to shoot someone plummeting off a cliff face in a wingsuit or dropping off a vertical face on a mountain bike you're going to need to close paths and stop unwitting members of the public (and sheep) from wandering into the shot or into the line of fire.
If it's not easily accessible then the cost of personnel, even volunteers could climb quite fast. I imagine there are liability issues which the NT would need to insure against.

It's not quite the same as a lone hiker setting up a tripod and taking a nice landscape

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  #24  
Old 9th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

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Originally Posted by Johnheatingman View Post
Has anyone seen any actual evidence that the NT is asking fees of around £400 per hour or are all the reports the same as this article ?
No we haven't, and we just don't know what the Trust's policy is on this matter.Therein lies the problem.

The trust does provide an email address for professionals wanting to sell images taken on Trust estates, but there is no clue as to what their policy is or how much it might cost to be granted permission. In many cases there may be no charge at all. We simply don't know.

I suspect much of the difficulty relates to finding someone within the organisation who is willing and able to make a binding decision on the matter.

There is also some lack of clarity as to whether permission should be sought before taking photographs, or before selling them. My interpretation is that it is OK to take the photographs but you must ask permission before selling them.
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Old 9th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

We as a group we are mainly amateur photographers (I'm exceedingly amateur I must say) so no worries for us. Anyone running a business profiting from their merchandise should expect to pay. The NT is an asset and any extra income generated should hopefully improve the homes and gardens for the members to explore.
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Re: National Trust

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
No we haven't, and we just don't know what the Trust's policy is on this matter.Therein lies the problem.
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/features/visitor-faqs

Where can I take photographs?

Outdoors: all visitors to National Trust properties are allowed to take photographs out of doors for their own private use. Any individuals wishing to sell or publish photographs should contact images@nationaltrust.org.uk.

Indoors: amateur photography (including filming) without flash is now permitted in historic interiors at the Property Managerís discretion. As with outdoor photography, any photographs taken are strictly for private use, and enquiries about selling or publishing photographs should be directed to images@nationaltrust.org.uk. However, visitors must be aware that at some places, there may be copyright issues, and further permissions may be required in respect of collections not owned by us. In these situations the Property Manager's decision as to whether photography is allowed is final.
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Old 9th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

All as I opined in my original post.
And yes most Properties now allow photography without flash - quite reasonably in the circumstances.
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Old 9th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

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Originally Posted by Johnheatingman View Post
Not much point in you being a member now David, youre 3.5 thousand miles away. Besides you will be too busy with the BBPS

Regards,

John
OK, what's BBPS. I'm pretty sure it's not BB Public School or Pre School.
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Old 9th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

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After your wife's recent experience with wildlife, BBPS = Black Bear Preservation Society

John
Very good. One was here again this morning about 10 minutes after I left for work.
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Old 9th August 2017
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Re: National Trust

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Originally Posted by AMc View Post
Agreed what set my alarm bells ringing was this paragraph:
"A commercial photographer who was planning to shoot some action photographs for an outdoor publication on crags which fall within one of the NT’s extensive Snowdonia estates, has been quoted £250 to £400 per hour to carry out his assignment."
(My emphasis)

That suggests to me that there may be some risks involved. If you want to shoot someone plummeting off a cliff face in a wingsuit or dropping off a vertical face on a mountain bike you're going to need to close paths and stop unwitting members of the public (and sheep) from wandering into the shot or into the line of fire.
If it's not easily accessible then the cost of personnel, even volunteers could climb quite fast. I imagine there are liability issues which the NT would need to insure against.

It's not quite the same as a lone hiker setting up a tripod and taking a nice landscape

It's a valid point. We had to stop mountain bikers coming onto the family farm in South Africa because of litigation issues. It was difficult to enforce, mainly because they were too fast for us to get them off the land. It was in part fearing litigation, but was also for their own safety. We went through a bad phase of the Lycra brigade being ambushed at night by criminals who would clobber them with 2x4's in the woods and take their bikes, beat them up.

The farm includes a forest on a mountain, which has a cliff face and over the years, mountain rescue have had to be called out to walkers, who fell into a pot hole or got stuck on the mountain in bad weather. The rescue helicopter charges $1000 per hour, then it gets complicated who pays. I have the photos. We have no objections to anyone taking photos. I can understand the NT's stance on commercial photography. Holiday snaps wouldn't apply. Right?
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