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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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As a certain arty-farty might say…

QI A Brexit Central Item

Food for thought... http://brexitcentral.com/davis-tell-...l-trade-talks/

Or, as Lance Corporal Jones, would say..."They don't like it up em Mr. Mannering."
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Re: As a certain arty-farty might say…

Barnier ought to tell Davis to not let the door bang his **** on the way out!

http://newsthump.com/2017/10/11/prep...eal-on-brexit/

http://newsthump.com/2017/10/12/gove...-eaten-by-dog/

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Re: As a certain arty-farty might say…

I went to a talk by Lord Digby Jones this morning. He's an excellent speaker and had a lot to say about Brexit (he's a "reluctant leaver"). He's very well connected in government and the city so he's worth listening to. In his view, it's all about the money:

- EU has budgeted lots of spend over next 10-20 years based on current income levels from member states. Lots of infrastructure projects plus some serious pension commitments for employees of EU institutions.

- Germany is largest contributor to EU budget with UK as nr 2.

- Germany does not want to make up loss of UK's contribution. The ability of other states to do so is limited (basically because Germany is by far the largest and most successful economy in EU).

- Our strict legal obligations (already committed items in current budget cycle plus pension coverage for UK recipients) are about $15bn.

- EU are after contributions over and above this to cover future pension contributions for wider EU and have already planned spend beyond current budget cycle.

- Germany is in effect calling the shots. He talks of the EU becoming "the greater Germany" - and he says that they're doing this reluctantly rather than as some grand plan. I think I agree with him on this.

- Barnier is taking his lead from Merkel. Merkel right now is still using the denial of discussions on longer-term trade relationship etc as a bargaining chip to get the money she wants.

Actually, all this sounds completely logical and believable. It seems to me that:

- We need to keep our cool and our position.

- A deal will emerge and like many a negotiation it'll all come at once. To be expecting progress now is unlikely unless we give in. Any good negotiator will tell you that giving in might make swifter progress, but it'll not be in your own interests.

So, actually - I'm somewhat more positive about where we are now than before the talk. And I say that as a firm remainer!

In fact, maybe it's just the 5-stages of grief process, but I'm beginning to accept our fate out of the EU and it needn't be all gloom and doom. In fact, we need to find our confidence and mojo and get on with creating wealth for all our citizens without the EU as a crutch.
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Re: As a certain arty-farty might say…

I'd vote for you Paul. You need to apply for a negotiating job
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Re: As a certain arty-farty might say…

I like Digby Jones he talks a lot of sense.

I agree with Paul we need to get our confidence up find our mojo and get on with it.

but ..
I dont like the idea of introducing a transition period after we leave. We had two years to transition from the time we gave notice thats enough. Every month we continue paying into the EU we just continue racking up more debt. We effectively borrow the money to make our payments its just crackers. I hope democracy is finally is accepted and we do actually leave but I dont trust this government especially Hammond who I fear is plotting a fudge.
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Re: As a certain arty-farty might say…

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I'd vote for you Paul. You need to apply for a negotiating job
Ha - I couldn't talk myself out of a paper bag!
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Re: As a certain arty-farty might say…

On the subject of money = projects as peviously mentioned by Paul, it could be of interest to see whether this project gets completed and from where the dosh came from? A BBC item from last week - Is Europe's ghostliest train station about to rise again? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-41445860

200 million euros (£175m) has been promised with further funding from Brussels...
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Re: As a certain arty-farty might say…

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On the subject of money = projects as peviously mentioned by Paul, it could be of interest to see whether this project gets completed and from where the dosh came from? A BBC item from last week - Is Europe's ghostliest train station about to rise again? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-41445860

200 million euros (£175m) has been promised with further funding from Brussels...
That's a fascinating story Wally - thanks for posting it. As much as I love railways I'm not sure spending €200m is money well spent. Mind you, €200m, at about 1/200 of the cost of HS2 sounds like a bargain!
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Re: As a certain arty-farty might say…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally View Post
On the subject of money = projects as peviously mentioned by Paul, it could be of interest to see whether this project gets completed and from where the dosh came from? A BBC item from last week - Is Europe's ghostliest train station about to rise again? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-41445860

200 million euros (£175m) has been promised with further funding from Brussels...


Why do we pay money to a non-elected, non-democratic entity to get a very small share of our own money back that we gave them in the first place - please can some remainer explain why this is good ?

Also don't mention the EU broadcasting company also known as the BBC it should be closed down or made to operate a subscription model.
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Re: As a certain arty-farty might say…

Quote:
Originally Posted by wornish View Post
Why do we pay money to a non-elected, non-democratic entity to get a very small share of our own money back that we gave them in the first place - please can some remainer explain why this is good ?

Also don't mention the EU broadcasting company also known as the BBC it should be closed down or made to operate a subscription model.
Well... I could start a long post here, but I think the big points are:

- Peace and harmony within a continent historically riven by war
- The power of inclusion vs isolationism
- Stronger together against other world economic powers (Asia, US)
- Strong cultural and family bonds
- A united, liberal force with strong human rights

Sure there are problems with the EU - but there are few 100%s in life... A reformed EU is a no-brainer for us to be a part of. I'd rather remain and make it better than run away.

As to the BBC - it's the best broadcaster in the world - by a long way. Go and watch TV or listen to radio ANYWHERE else and you'll appreciate the jewel that we have. Subscription TV is a recipe for endless channels of junk.
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Re: As a certain arty-farty might say…

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Well... I could start a long post here, but I think the big points are:

- Peace and harmony within a continent historically riven by war
- The power of inclusion vs isolationism
- Stronger together against other world economic powers (Asia, US)
- Strong cultural and family bonds
- A united, liberal force with strong human rights

Sure there are problems with the EU - but there are few 100%s in life... A reformed EU is a no-brainer for us to be a part of. I'd rather remain and make it better than run away.

As to the BBC - it's the best broadcaster in the world - by a long way. Go and watch TV or listen to radio ANYWHERE else and you'll appreciate the jewel that we have. Subscription TV is a recipe for endless channels of junk.
Pinning our hopes on the USA as a trading partner is a recipe for disaster. The Americans only ever do what is in Americas best interests. The current debacle with Boeing and Bombardier should leave us in no doubt about our position in the eyes of the US administration.

Your (Paul's) summary of the EU's position makes a lot of sense, and is almost exactly as I suspected; that the EU was relying on our money for its spending plans, and we have spoilt their party.

Cameron was a fool for allowing the EU referendum in the first place, although the EU question would have kept on surfacing until a vote was held. However, the biggest mistake was on the part of Tony Blair for signing us up to treaties that were not in our interests, and the EU for being so intransigent when Cameron tried to negotiate with them.

As for the BBC I can only agree with Paul. The BBC is criticised for being biased from all directions, so they must be getting it about right! I am happy to pay the licence fee to enjoy television and radio uninterrupted by advertising and drivel, (with the possible exception of Chris Evans), and for the generally high quality programme output. I also like that the BBC doesn't feel the need to recap the whole programme after every break!

One observation that I would make is that the quality of broadcaster's outputs seems to go down exponentially with presenters' pay, and as the number of television and radio channels increases. This loss of quality started with Channel 4, accelerated with Channel 5, and went into terminal decline with the advent of Sky, Freeview, etc.
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Re: As a certain arty-farty might say…

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Pinning our hopes on the USA as a trading partner is a recipe for disaster. The Americans only ever do what is in Americas best interests. The current debacle with Boeing and Bombardier should leave us in no doubt about our position in the eyes of the US administration.

Your (Paul's) summary of the EU's position makes a lot of sense, and is almost exactly as I suspected; that the EU was relying on our money for its spending plans, and we have spoilt their party.
Yes, I couldn't agree more! Already there are more signs, too. We have been agreeing how to split the WTO tariffs with the EU after Brexit (we are WTO members via the EU), and the USA, China, Argentina, Brazil, New Zealand and some others have objected to what was agreed, demanding that as soon as we are out, we should open our market to tariff-free import of their agricultural products. BEFORE we even start trade talks with the USA.

Not only that, but India was in trade talks with the USA for 8 years, and they failed a few months ago. The reason? The indians insisted on free movement of people as part of the deal. They have also said they want visas made easier for their people already for a trade deal with us. So we'll swap Eastern European migrants for even greater numbers of Indian migrants. Good, eh? And will India want to buy our products? If what I have seen in the India Times is anything to go by, it'll be us buying Indian products.....

Re the referendum: instead of rushing it out, Cameron should have got an independent body to look at the whole scenario, and list the pros and cons on a per issue basis, then roll out a referendum (if indeed, we needed one, rather than letting our highly-paid MPs decide!) based on facts, instead of blatant propaganda.
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Re: As a certain arty-farty might say…

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Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
..................

As to the BBC - it's the best broadcaster in the world - by a long way. Go and watch TV or listen to radio ANYWHERE else and you'll appreciate the jewel that we have. Subscription TV is a recipe for endless channels of junk.
And our Aunty (Australian ABC) was based on the BBC (or that's how I perceive it) starting out requiring the best 'British sounding' (Queen's English) announcers & news readers.
It is (normally) more worthwhile than some of the trash on other commercial channels, but has suffered with budget cuts though, as I understand BBC have also gone through(?).
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Re: As a certain arty-farty might say…

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And our Aunty (Australian ABC) was based on the BBC (or that's how I perceive it) starting out requiring the best 'British sounding' (Queen's English) announcers & news readers.
It is (normally) more worthwhile than some of the trash on other commercial channels, but has suffered with budget cuts though, as I understand BBC have also gone through(?).
The BBC, like the NHS, will never have enough money.

Which raises the question; why does the BBC need to pay Chris Evans £2.5 million a year for his infantile drivel?

That equates to 17,250 licence payers' money!

And is Garry Lineker really worth £1.7 million?
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Re: As a certain arty-farty might say…

The Liberal Democrats are calling for a second referendum. Would an even number of referendums be democratic? No, as with coin tossing, it always has to be an odd number. So perhaps the 'man with the hat' should be calling for at least two further referenda.
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