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Old 4th October 2017
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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

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The Americans seem to have a fixation on some sort of - for want of a better description - apocalyptic war, where they will need bunkers and to be armed to the teeth. Does this come from computer warlike games? I don't think so, because I think this problem precedes computer wargaming. There seems to be a collective mindset hooked on shoot 'em up before they get you, even from the US police.
I think there are two problems:

Firstly, the Americans do seem to have a fixation with guns and ammunition, even though for most people the need to 'bear arms' passed a very long time ago.

You only have to watch an American movie or cop show to see that the Yanks glorify guns and violence. If a 'baddie' has one gun, you can guarantee that the 'good guy' will have two or three guns, and he won't mind using them.

The violence in some video games just takes this to a new level, and I suspect, 'normalises' this kind of behaviour in the minds of many.

I fear we are also seeing the effects of this here in the UK, with more and more people not only carrying guns and knives, but being willing to use them without any thought whatsoever.

Secondly, the vast majority of Americans have never left American soil, so they live in their own little bubble not seeing how the rest of the world lives and works. This, I believe, is why the Americans (and their products) are so backwards in many respects.

If they visited other countries outside of the USA they might come to realise that not everybody goes out to the local supermarket tooled up to massacre the entire neighbourhood!
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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

Surely we have more than enough bad situations and events occurring in this country without spending hours discussing the rights and wrongs of the USA. We have recently introduced laws on gun control but if events reported in the media are anything to go by, we have more gun related crimes and deaths than before the laws were introduced. Knife incidents and related deaths have also increased dramatically here over the last few years. Maybe we should discuss putting our own country in order before criticising others.

Just a thought.

John
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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

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Maybe we should discuss putting our own country in order before criticising others.

John
Well that's us told!

However, I would argue that many of the problems in our own country (to which you refer) also stem from the gun and violence culture and other excesses that are endemic in the USA. If this is correct then we have every right to criticise them.
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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

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Well that's us told!

However, I would argue that many of the problems in our own country (to which you refer) also stem from the gun and violence culture and other excesses that are endemic in the USA. If this is correct then we have every right to criticise them.
If we believe the media reports, the majority of illegal firearms coming into this country originate in Eastern Europe. Apparently the going price is 50 for a handgun and ammunition !

I actually agree with a lot of your comments regarding the USA but can see no practical enforceable solution to the gun problem there. There is estimated to be currently one firearm for every American resident in the country and billions of rounds of ammunition, so even if laws were passed to restrict the purchase there is enough guns and ammo available to last for many years.

Regarding the UK, we all have a given right to criticise anything and anyone but my personal opinion is, it pays to examine our own circumstances before throwing stones elsewhere.

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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

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If we believe the media reports, the majority of illegal firearms coming into this country originate in Eastern Europe.

John
That may well be the case; but in my view the seeds of violence are sown very firmly in the USA.

I cannot count the number of violent movies, television programmes and video games that have been made in the USA. I couldn't name any from the former Eastern bloc, although I daresay they exist.

Gun crime happens all around the world, but the USA seems to have a bigger problem with guns than any other developed country. This must be more than a coincidence surely?

Stronger gun laws might have little short-term benefit in the USA given the huge numbers of weapons already in circulation, but a change in attitudes would help enormously.

I can remember a time when it was considered socially acceptable to drink and drive here in the UK, and as long as you could walk in a straight line when instructed by the police you wouldn't be prosecuted. Forty years on, drinking and driving is now considered socially unacceptable by the majority of right minded people.

Alcohol is just as readily available now as it was in the 1970's, if not more so, but a much smaller number of people risk mixing it with driving these days. Why shouldn't the same principle apply to guns?
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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

Possibly correct Nigel but I for one won't live long enough to find out if it works or not.

John
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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

Some very interesting points being made. For me, it's down to who makes the decision maker's toe the line. It doesn't help when a certain, recently appointed individual, makes comments that back-track on previous statements.

This also doesn't help, but does explain why the gun culture will rule for many, many decades to come... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41489552

As John the Heatinh Man said: "Not in my life-time." Same goes double for me.
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Old 5th October 2017
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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

There is an important point regarding the growing violent culture here in the UK, though, folks. The British, and especially young Brits, seem to want to ape the Americans in all things. I don't understand why; but they seem to see America as glamorous, and with it, the Americans' gun culture. I think that we need to do something about this trend here, if we are to cut down on our own gun and knife crime.

I never cease to be astonished at how many British people have a goal of going to Las Vegas, for example. Why? What is the attraction? Plastic and tinsel? I have even seen online comment to the effect that everything to do with Europe is grey and boring, and everything to do with America is exciting and glamorous. The people taking that view seem unaware that most Americans have their roots in Europe! From their view, I deduce that they think, for example, that Irish people in Ireland are dull and boring, yet Irish people in Boston MA are exciting and glamorous. It seems to me that such an attitude is growing ever stronger here.

Should we perhaps curtail what sort of American made TV programmes are shown on British TV? (Yeah, yeah, I know it'd be seen as censorship) But just take Graham Norton's programme on TV, and how many of his guests are Americans. The majority of the films in our cinemas are American. I'll bet it's not so on the continent!
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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

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Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
There is an important point regarding the growing violent culture here in the UK, though, folks. The British, and especially young Brits, seem to want to ape the Americans in all things. I don't understand why; but they seem to see America as glamorous, and with it, the Americans' gun culture. I think that we need to do something about this trend here, if we are to cut down on our own gun and knife crime.

I never cease to be astonished at how many British people have a goal of going to Las Vegas, for example. Why? What is the attraction? Plastic and tinsel? I have even seen online comment to the effect that everything to do with Europe is grey and boring, and everything to do with America is exciting and glamorous. The people taking that view seem unaware that most Americans have their roots in Europe! From their view, I deduce that they think, for example, that Irish people in Ireland are dull and boring, yet Irish people in Boston MA are exciting and glamorous. It seems to me that such an attitude is growing ever stronger here.

Should we perhaps curtail what sort of American made TV programmes are shown on British TV? (Yeah, yeah, I know it'd be seen as censorship) But just take Graham Norton's programme on TV, and how many of his guests are Americans. The majority of the films in our cinemas are American. I'll bet it's not so on the continent!
Sorry Keith I don't totally agree.

Guns don't kill people..... people using guns do it.

Knives don't kill people.... people do it using knives

Films don't make teenage thugs and yobs... many social reasons such as no decent employment, social deprivation, parentage, and a vast and varied amount of other social reason are responsible. A large percentage of responsibilty has to fall on the parents and they way they have brought their "little darlings" up.

When someone reaches their teens, they are fully aware of what is right and wrong, what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. They have to make a concious decision to step outside the rules of acceptable behaviour and why they choose to do this is probably based on the factors above.

The exception to this is when someone has some sort of mental deficiency. In my opinion the shooter in Las Vegas could not possibly been of totally sound mind and no amount of laws or gun controls would have prevented him from creating some sort of major incident whether it was with guns, explosives or something else.

Nobody will ever convince me that someone who kills numerous people whether it is in the name of religion or any other reason, is totally of a sound mind.

Once again we seem to blaming America and using it as a convenient excuse for what is our own home grown UK problem and one for which there seems to be no easy answer.

John
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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

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Originally Posted by Johnheatingman View Post
Sorry Keith I don't totally agree.

Guns don't kill people..... people using guns do it.

Knives don't kill people.... people do it using knives


Films don't make teenage thugs and yobs... many social reasons such as no decent employment, social deprivation, parentage, and a vast and varied amount of other social reason are responsible. A large percentage of responsibilty has to fall on the parents and they way they have brought their "little darlings" up.

When someone reaches their teens, they are fully aware of what is right and wrong, what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. They have to make a concious decision to step outside the rules of acceptable behaviour and why they choose to do this is probably based on the factors above.

Once again we seem to blaming America and using it as a convenient excuse for what is our own home grown UK problem and one for which there seems to be no easy answer.

John
Of course guns and knives are just tools. In the 70s/80s I was a pistol shooter, but I didn't go and shoot someone, neither did any other of our gun club members (except one guy who managed to shoot himself!)

I'm not blaming America for our problem, but a contributory attitude that has grown here is idolizing America. Yes, that's down to parents; but I don't believe that social deprivation and poverty, iniquitous as they are, are a root cause. They create conditions where young people are more easily persuaded one way or another to 'go wrong'. In the 1920s and 30s there was plenty of social deprivation - probably worse than today - but young people didn't turn to often gratuitous crime and violence like they do today.

Why do young people, even young kids, not fear the police today? One of my cousins lives in Crete; he says they fear the police there! But it's like it used to be here: if a kid cheeks a policeman there, he gets a clip round the ear - and his parents support the police. One factor here is parents obsessing over kids' rights, and ignoring their obligations. And, indeed, their own.

I don't know how we change the culture that has developed here, but change it we must. Likewise in the USA. There are plenty of countries where people own lots of guns; but these multiple killings are, terrorists apart, unique to the USA, or at least, appear to be. I'm not convinced that all these multiple killers are psychopathic. They may have some form of mental deficiency or disturbance, but they know what they are doing.
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  #26  
Old 5th October 2017
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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

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Films don't make teenage thugs and yobs...
Not in isolation maybe, but if a child is brought up witnessing violence at home or in a violent neighbourhood, and is routinely 'parked' in front of the television or games console watching violent films and games then there good chance that they will see violence as a normal part of life.

As for America, I struggle to think of more than a handful of American imports that have actually benefited the UK or Europe.
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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
Not in isolation maybe, but if a child is brought up witnessing violence at home or in a violent neighbourhood, and is routinely 'parked' in front of the television or games console watching violent films and games then there good chance that they will see violence as a normal part of life.

As for America, I struggle to think of more than a handful of American imports that have actually benefited the UK or Europe.
Nigel, I agree with your comment but surely that scenario is the fault of the parents and not actually the films ? If a parent allows a 6 yr old child to watch a violent X rated film, do we blame the film producers or the parent?

My experience having worked with the general public for all my working life is that children will adopt the parents beliefs and mirror their behaviour as they get older. Those with parents who are "yobs" who have no respect for law, decency and society will in all probability grow up to be the same. As in most scenarios there are of course exceptions but these sadly seem to be rare.

John
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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

I was curious to understand what a "bump stock" was so did a Google search - as you do. First hit was this. Take a look:


What struck me really was two things:

- The gun he was using looked like a serious weapon of war - but it's a semi-automatic rifle and totally legal in most parts of the US.

- Fitted with the bump stock it was firing rounds at greater than 1 per second.

Surely it's totally insane to allow these sort of weapons to be freely available. What "sporting" purpose could anyone want these sort of guns for? Many Americans think it's to "protect" themselves - but as this hilarious video shows that's a complete joke:

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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

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Originally Posted by Johnheatingman View Post
Nigel, I agree with your comment but surely that scenario is the fault of the parents and not actually the films ? If a parent allows a 6 yr old child to watch a violent X rated film, do we blame the film producers or the parent?

My experience having worked with the general public for all my working life is that children will adopt the parents beliefs and mirror their behaviour as they get older. Those with parents who are "yobs" who have no respect for law, decency and society will in all probability grow up to be the same. As in most scenarios there are of course exceptions but these sadly seem to be rare.

John
But what if the violent video games and television programmes didn't exist in the first place.......?

Why do the Americans produce this trash? To make money of course, as they are bankrupt of more original ideas.

If you read the posts in the Lounge many relate to poor business decisions, lack of foresight and short-termism. In my experience these are all American imports, or at least American inspired.

American business is only interested in profit and has no social conscience. As an example, some years ago the Ford Pinto gained a reputation for becoming a fireball if rear-ended. Being America the courts made some big awards for compensation, which of course Ford fought tooth and nail to defend.

Clearly there was a serious and fatal design flaw, but Ford decided that the compensation awarded to the victims' next of kin would still cost less than re-tooling the metal presses. Ford continued to produce these death traps until the Supreme Court handed down a massive fine for Contempt of Court.

This is just one example of many.

Their attitude to the environment is equally disturbing.
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Re: ANOTHER American massacre...

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Surely it's totally insane to allow these sort of weapons to be freely available. What "sporting" purpose could anyone want these sort of guns for?

Paul, some time ago I watched a TV program that featured Americans hunting deer and bear from a helicopter using high powered semi-automatic rifles. When interviewed, the so called "sportsmen" taking part stated they had paid a small fortune for the organised hunt and it was their most enjoyable sporting event in years.

John
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