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Old 22nd April 2019
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Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

A recent study in Germany shows that electric vehicles actually pollute more than Diesel ones. Who would have believed it?


http://brusselstimes.com/business/te...an-study-shows
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Old 22nd April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

Indeed. I believe this is reasonably accurate and when you consider the heavy metals and rare earth elements needed for modern electronics there are a number of other actors as well which need to be considered in terms of total environmental impact

IMO electric vehicles are useful for improving air quality in critical areas and that is the main reason to consider them but the hype that goes with them (which I have researched a lot recently leading up to an electric motorcycle purchase for my wife) omits so many facts that the manufacturers miss out that it is east to draw the wrong conclusions

The main thing we need to consider is thinking more long term. Many of those rare elements are not easy to recycle out from electronic compounds whereas the energy used to produce my 31Yr old Land Rover is still in use (not 10 years as per the study).

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Old 22nd April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

Nothing new there, Dave. However, you need to delete the word ‘pollute’ in your post and replace it with something like ‘release much more CO2’.

I assume you’re not arguing for ignoring the 30,000 premature deaths in the U.K. per year caused by vehicle emissions on our roads, so pollution as defined by that is indeed vastly worse with old diesel engines (those not meeting the latest NCAP standards), especially the very oldest. Those are usually commercial vehicles.

If we were to switch rapidly away from diesels in the U.K. we’d lose all chance of meeting our agreed CO2 emission target.

The latest NCAP diesels have much lower CO2 emissions than the latest petrol cars, and as good or better particulate pollution emissions. So the current media and government downer on all diesels is actually damaging to all sorts of genuinely important interests.

The problem with electric vehicles at the moment is that although they don’t produce particulates on the road, most of their electric power is produced in fossil-fuel powered generating stations: the current administration’s appalling withdrawal of encouragement for investment in renewable energy is partly to blame for the U.K. slowing its investment in this, but the inevitable economics of the market have now turned somewhat in that direction regardless of their kowtowing to the fossil fuel industry.

The big advantage of electric vehicles regardless of how their power is generated is that even coal and gas power stations aren’t situated in city centres where your children will be breathing it in and contributing to the 30,000.
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Old 22nd April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

What about the folks (I hate the bastardisation of the English language) mining neodymium on minimum wage, probably at subsistence or sub-subsistence levels suffering serious health risks. I suspect the average bod doesn't give these poor sods a second thought as they enter the flashy car showroom.

In the grand scale of things, my intuition informs me that the environment would be in a better place if cars were kept and used for 10 years before replacement. There is a tremendous cost to the environment to manufacture new cars.
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Old 22nd April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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Originally Posted by drmarkf View Post
I assume you’re not arguing for ignoring the 30,000 premature deaths in the U.K. per year caused by vehicle emissions on our roads, so pollution as defined by that is indeed vastly worse with old diesel engines (those not meeting the latest NCAP standards), especially the very oldest. Those are usually commercial vehicles.
You are making several wild assumptions there Mark.
Firstly, that the emissions responsible for those 30,000 premature deaths all originate from motor vehicle exhausts, and specifically road vehicles. I am not convinced that they do.

Secondly, that fossil fuel fired power stations are emission free and won't cause wider global damage. I am not convinced that they are;

Thirdly, that the materials used to produce electric cars and their battery systems are inherently safe. I am not convinced that they are either;

Fourthly, that there is no risk attached to particulate matter originating from rubber tyres and brake friction materials; both of which are used in ICE and electric vehicles;

Finally, that there would be no deaths as a result of the manufacture or use of electric vehicles. For example, how many more people might be run over by silent cars than by clattering diesels?

As I see it, engineers have been very successful in cleaning up pollution so that we no longer realise that we are polluting. The smoke from steam trains and old diesel engines was obvious, and to a degree self-limiting because there were limits to what we could function in, and what we would put up with. Electric vehicles are just an exercise in moving pollution somewhere else to people who don't matter as much, and don't have as many votes as those in the big cities.

The DPF systems fitted to diesel engines reduce particulate emissions to very low levels. Modern petrol engines are also very clean, but the remaining particulates are tiny. Crucially, these particulates are of 'respirable size', and are much smaller than those from older engines.

My guess it that whilst the exhaust fumes from a thirty year old diesel Land Rover may be unpleasant, they may actually be less harmful to us than the exhaust fumes from a Euro 6 Discovery.

Somebody recently said that the private motor car is a failed 20th century experiment which should be scrapped. I tend to agree. Rather than making pollution cleaner we really need to find ways of polluting less.
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Old 22nd April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

Nigel, do you suggest we all sit in the dark at home?
Also, Steve, whilst you are right about the effects on the miners, if you were to take away their jobs they wouldn’t thank you for that. Give them an alternative and it would be different though.
Sadly the world is an unfair, overpopulated place, we all have to die of something (hopefully before dementia gets us) and the rich (mostly) don’t care about anything except themselves. Ever it was and ever it shall be I expect.
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Old 22nd April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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Originally Posted by Ricoh View Post
...

In the grand scale of things, my intuition informs me that the environment would be in a better place if cars were kept and used for 10 years before replacement. There is a tremendous cost to the environment to manufacture new cars.
Deliberately built-in obsolescence in all manner of technology, including white goods and other products like soft furnishings and clothes, is a massive environmental scandal which seemingly no government is prepared to address. Durability of most products has gone down and down. Cars however seem to have bucked the trend. In my memory (40+ years ago) a car which did 100k miles was extraordinary, whereas now it is normal.
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Old 22nd April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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Originally Posted by TimP View Post
Nigel, do you suggest we all sit in the dark at home?
Also, Steve, whilst you are right about the effects on the miners, if you were to take away their jobs they wouldn’t thank you for that. Give them an alternative and it would be different though.
Sadly the world is an unfair, overpopulated place, we all have to die of something (hopefully before dementia gets us) and the rich (mostly) don’t care about anything except themselves. Ever it was and ever it shall be I expect.
Where did I suggest that we should sit in the dark?

Transport of all kinds uses thousands of times more energy and creates thousands of times more pollution than light bulbs.

The private motor car is probably the most inefficient and polluting mode of land transport ever devised, especially if only the driver is on board. Even air travel generates fewer KG of CO2 per passenger mile travelled.

The fact is that a large percentage of road journeys and flights are unnecessary, or could be avoided with better planning and organisation.

The problem is that successive governments have come to rely on the vast revenue generated by road users so whatever the claimed risks to health caused by motor vehicles they are unlikely to want to reduce road travel any time soon.
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Old 22nd April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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Deliberately built-in obsolescence in all manner of technology, including white goods and other products like soft furnishings and clothes, is a massive environmental scandal which seemingly no government is prepared to address. Durability of most products has gone down and down. Cars however seem to have bucked the trend. In my memory (40+ years ago) a car which did 100k miles was extraordinary, whereas now it is normal.
I would agree that modern cars have bucked the obsolescence trend in some ways, but many perfectly serviceable vehicles are scrapped prematurely because the cost and complexity of electronics makes even simple repairs uneconomic.

A few weeks ago the coil pack failed on our Vx Corsa. Thankfully this was covered by the extended warranty so the job was entrusted to our local Vauxhall Main Dealer, which curiously enough shares its name with Robin Hood's forest!

Anyhow, I told Service Reception exactly what the problem was, but was told that they would need to plug it into the computer to check the fault codes, and that the extended warranty may not cover this. Cost £60 + VAT.

Around 10.30 am I received a call from the garage informing me that I was right and that the coil pack was indeed faulty. The replacement part was £247.00 + VAT, which was covered by the warranty, but I was told that the job specification required new spark plugs to be fitted. I argued the toss pointing out that the car had only covered 24,000 miles but was given some bullshit about not being able to warranty the replacement coil pack unless new plugs were fitted! Cost £72.46 + VAT!

Now I can remember when a set of Champion N9Y spark plugs could be bought for £1/-/- (5/- each), whilst a Joe Lucas, Prince of Darkness ignition coil cost about £3/-/-. How and why have these parts become so expensive?

All in all this very simple job added up to £554.95 including labour (for a two minute job), so is it any wonder that so many perfectly good vehicles are scrapped?
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Old 22nd April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

Anyone who is serious about tackling the problem of climate change and lowering their households carbon footprint, has to take serious consideration of their lifestyle choices.

Pet ownership has a much bigger carbon footprint than car ownership

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcm.../#2cada88413a6
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Old 22nd April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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Originally Posted by Graham_of_Rainham View Post
Anyone who is serious about tackling the problem of climate change and lowering their households carbon footprint, has to take serious consideration of their lifestyle choices.

Pet ownership has a much bigger carbon footprint than car ownership

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcm.../#2cada88413a6
Unbelievable, don't know where to even begin with the Forbes article.

So no pets - that will fix it.

Talk about lost the plot - jeesh! Virtue signaling in overdrive.

By the way, the climate has changed and will continue to change because of things way more significant than pet ownership - perhaps look at Sun activity, for example, just a thought.
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

People cannot change the activity of the sun. So we must look at the things we can change.

Meat production is by far the best place to start.

Plus it’s not just one source of data saying that pets are a problem
https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/4/16...climate-change

Reforestation is another huge change that needs to be made.

As for cars, simply having the correct tyre pressure can make a significant difference to fuel consumption. When I undertook an advanced drivers course, the first thing they said was they would save me money on fuel and I would more often than not cut my journey time.
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Old 22nd April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

I don't pretend to be anywhere near as technically knowledgeable as many on here about climate change or the reasons that cause it.

One thing I don't understand is whilst I have seen many comments blaming diesel cars and now of all things even pet ownership, little has been said regarding the effects of the hundreds of thousands of passenger jets in the skies every minute of the day and night. Is this because aviation fuel does not have the same impact as diesel fuel or is it simply due to political or financial motives and far easier to blame car usage ? Surely the billions of gallons of aviation fuel burned by passenger aircraft every hour comes close or exceeds the amount consumed by the worlds vehicles.

Maybe someone with technical knowledge can explain ?

Jax
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Old 22nd April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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I don't pretend to be anywhere near as technically knowledgeable as many on here about climate change or the reasons that cause it.

One thing I don't understand is whilst I have seen many comments blaming diesel cars and now of all things even pet ownership, little has been said regarding the effects of the hundreds of thousands of passenger jets in the skies every minute of the day and night. Is this because aviation fuel does not have the same impact as diesel fuel or is it simply due to political or financial motives and far easier to blame car usage ? Surely the billions of gallons of aviation fuel burned by passenger aircraft every hour comes close or exceeds the amount consumed by the worlds vehicles.

Maybe someone with technical knowledge can explain ?

Jax
I share your concerns in this regard. The fact that CO2 is generated at 40,000' must also be a factor, although I believe jet aircraft do help to burn methane in the earth's upper atmosphere which is around four times more powerful as a greenhouse gas than CO2.

That said, the fuel burnt per passenger mile by modern aircraft compares very favourably with private motor vehicles.

As far as I know there is little or no tax on aviation fuel; hence the reason it is dyed to prevent use in road vehicles. (I used to use Avgas 100LL in my racing bike. Avgas is coloured blue.)

For aviation fuel tax to be workable there would need to be consensus between governments otherwise airlines would simply route via countries where aviation fuel tax was lowest. This was one of the reasons for Shannon Airport in Southern Ireland becoming an important stopping off point for transatlantic flights in times of old. The Duty Free shop there was also one of the biggest rip-offs I have ever come across in my life. Oddly enough, everything is priced in $USD. Gullible or what?
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Old 23rd April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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Originally Posted by wornish View Post
A recent study in Germany shows that electric vehicles actually pollute more than Diesel ones. Who would have believed it?


http://brusselstimes.com/business/te...an-study-shows
We saw a summary n here several months ago. If I remember, Electric cars were slightly more expensive to build and the same for disposal. But fuel wise a lot cheaper to run. It's all a bit "how long is a piece of string"...…..

If you take into account oil exploration, refining, shipping, storage and local distribution, Fossil fuel has already racked up quite a massive CO2 footprint.

My little all electric car gets its energy from wind and sun, via Ecotricity, thus its CO2 footprint is small, as the cost of motoring (fuel-wise) shows.

But as we have already discussed here, all personal transport is expensive, and costs...…...even a bicycle costs CO2 to build. Oh Shanks pony is quite cheap, but still needs leather and food to sustain...….

Now how long was that piece of string...………...
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