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View Poll Results: Are you getting fed up with Brexit and should we go back to discussing other things ?
YES - Close the thread 21 47.73%
NO - Keep the debate going on for eternity 23 52.27%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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  #511  
Old 12th August 2018
KeithL KeithL is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by wornish View Post
Er , yes I was.

There must be a reason the Daily Mail and the Sun are so popular wonder what it is ?
The Wail learned how to tap into older people who like moaning, and they did it very successfully. The Sun presumably appeals to more like the football fanatics.

I'm always a bit puzzled by the appeal of the Wail; just look at its history, of e.g. supporting people like Oswald Mosley in the past. They railed against women having the vote - it was the Wail that coined the term "suffragette" and also the term "flapper", both were meant as insults! in the 30s they supported Hitler. Yet that paper has found a very effective way to get through to its readers and convince them of all sorts of things - maybe just a constant drip drip drip of the same propaganda; Goebbels said if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth.
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  #512  
Old 12th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Otto View Post
I didn't say all her policies were wrong. There's no doubt that excessive union power needed to be curtailed, but in the process I believe she sowed the seeds of much that is now wrong with this country. The only time in my life I've ever voted Tory was at the 1983 general election when she won a second term. I don't personally think Corbyn is the answer but some of the imbalances of the Tories need to be reversed. When the Coalition were in power the LibDems managed to keep the Tories in check to some extent, but the issue of tuition fees (introduced originally by Labour don't forget) was their undoing, sadly.
Up to a point, yes; but a lot of the strikes were a symptom of decline. I voted for the Conservatives until 1983; seeing what she was about convinced me not to again, and I never have since. One issue is that today's Conservative party is really more Georgian style Tory in its outlook. I think both the major parties will split in two and a new centre party will emerge. Certainly, things can't go on as they are.

Edit: so far as JC is concerned, I agree with some of his ideas, like renationalizing the railways. But I think he is not up to getting down into the gutter and playing dirty like so many of today's politicians, especially on the other side, and that doesn't bode well.
  #513  
Old 12th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

No they cannot. The sooner a new party emerges the better, so many people are disillusioned with the present setup.
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  #514  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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No they cannot. The sooner a new party emerges the better, so many people are disillusioned with the present setup.
Yes, and a good starting point would be to scrap Brexit, sort out the mess properly, and perhaps do a new referendum based on truth and facts that can be verified, or else have the guts to say, "no, this is not in the interests of the country" and just stay put for now. Then their energies could be put to much better use sorting the country out.
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  #515  
Old 12th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

This is what Jeremy Corbyn wants, certainly not to go back to the 1970ís......

Pasted from the Labour Party website:

ďSo letís build a fairer Britain where no one is held back. A country where everybody is able to get on in life, to have security at work and at home, to be decently paid for the work they do, and to live their lives with the dignity they deserve.

Letís build a country where we invest our wealth to give everyone the best chance. That means building the homes we need to rent and buy, keeping our communities safe with more police officers, giving our childrenís schools the funding they badly need and restoring the NHS to its place as the envy of the world.

Donít let the Conservatives hold Britain back.

Letís build a Britain that works for the many, not the few.Ē

Jeremy Corbyn
Leader of the Labour Party
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  #516  
Old 12th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Of course, such statements are easy; saying it and doing it are two very different things!

What really worries me is, having witnessed the ongoing dog's breakfast that is the preparations for Brexit, and "negotiating", it is extremely likely to be followed by another dog's breakfast of actually leaving, and probably an even worse one of sorting out what we're doing after leaving. And if it ends in disaster, it will be too late - you can't turn the clock back.
  #517  
Old 12th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Gate Keeper View Post
This is what Jeremy Corbyn wants, certainly not to go back to the 1970’s......

Pasted from the Labour Party website:

“So let’s build a fairer Britain where no one is held back. A country where everybody is able to get on in life, to have security at work and at home, to be decently paid for the work they do, and to live their lives with the dignity they deserve.

Let’s build a country where we invest our wealth to give everyone the best chance. That means building the homes we need to rent and buy, keeping our communities safe with more police officers, giving our children’s schools the funding they badly need and restoring the NHS to its place as the envy of the world.

Don’t let the Conservatives hold Britain back.

Let’s build a Britain that works for the many, not the few.”

Jeremy Corbyn
Leader of the Labour Party
I think its what called nirvana. (or maybe la la land).
He just expects people to sit back and let the state look after them.
Why would anyone bother setting up a business. Why would anyone bother to get an education. Why would anyone try and better themselves when Corbyn will do it all for them.

Call it what you want but it sounds like Communism, looks like Communism and it has never worked. Guess those that tried haven't done it right so far.

Its typical Corbyn all words and no clue about how to make it work.
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  #518  
Old 12th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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... convince them of all sorts of things - maybe just a constant drip drip drip of the same propaganda; Goebbels said if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth.
Therein, I believe lies our greatest problem. Over the years we have been brainwashed into believing we are useless and good for nothing etc., etc.

We've now reached a point where we need a comfort blanket as, without it, we are all doomed. As things stand, given what we now have in the leadership department and have had for many years, plus being force fed a daily helping of being FOSKID, we are where we are.

From my POV, as things stand, I can't see there being much difference in our coming out of the EU or, in having another referendum where we vote to stay in. I can't see, in that case, why we would be allowed to revert back to square one with whatever allowances / privileges we had previously enjoyed. In either case, I suspect we are going to get put over a barrel and royally screwed. The real choices we have are: Backs against the wall and take it on the chin or: bend over and kiss your wotsit goodbye. Such is life.
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  #519  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Wally View Post
Therein, I believe lies our greatest problem. Over the years we have been brainwashed into believing we are useless and good for nothing etc., etc.

We've now reached a point where we need a comfort blanket as, without it, we are all doomed. As things stand, given what we now have in the leadership department and have had for many years, plus being force fed a daily helping of being FOSKID, we are where we are.

From my POV, as things stand, I can't see there being much difference in our coming out of the EU or, in having another referendum where we vote to stay in. I can't see, in that case, why we would be allowed to revert back to square one with whatever allowances / privileges we had previously enjoyed. In either case, I suspect we are going to get put over a barrel and royally screwed. The real choices we have are: Backs against the wall and take it on the chin or: bend over and kiss your wotsit goodbye. Such is life.
I don't really think that's true, in the way that you've written it. We have known for many years that the UK is in decline, and that we have a problem. We have done little to try to resolve the problem. After all, we went into the then EEC BECAUSE we had a problem. As I said, if we hadn't done so, we wouldn't have a motor industry or aviation industry now. Thatcher said that 'we didn't need industry. We can get along very nicely on services alone.' Now that is definitely a part of the problem. We shouldn't have allowed our industries to be decimated as we have.

On the other hand, we haven't grabbed the opportunities the EEC/EU offered. I well remember the owner of Innocent drinks saying that he couldn't understand why firms didn't try to sell into the EU; he'd done so, and IIRC, he said that he had tripled his business. I know of a long-standing engineering firm that closed down not far from here, last week, and I am told that the owner didn't even try to go out and get business; he expected it to come to him.

There are so many things that could have been done to benefit the country, that haven't. You talked about education; well, plenty of young people go to uni now - and take useless degrees. There are plenty of young people with degrees who work as bar staff or in care homes. What is the point of giving them a good education, for that sort of job to be the end point? I worked damned hard to get my qualifications in order to get myself the best career that I could; and it has worked. But - a big but - if I had gone into law, for instance, I would have been far better off financially. People who work in industry in this country are viewed as somehow inferior to those who provide a service. There's a problem that we need to get resolved.
  #520  
Old 12th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by wornish View Post
Maybe a case. But, I still don't see why we could not have set our own standards.

The UK has never set standards that it cannot meet. and that's much the same for many countries. The US in particular has a terrible track record with toxic sites having to introduce "Super Fund" status to clean them up and now Trump is clipping the wings of the EPA and the other agencies as he sings along to the tune of big business.

Then there's the EU waste framework directive 2018.

The EU directive on H&S is estimated to have saved thousands of lives and prevented millions of lost hours related to work place accidents.

There is already findings being revealed on Fire Safety and building materials standards that the EU have set being ignored by many throughout the UK. We have all seen what that leads too...

Now the EU has its sights set on "Tax dodging", the money men want out...

Yes the UK could have done it, but we will never know if it would have done anything like as much.

The world is so connected, interdependency makes so much more sense than independence.
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  #521  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Graham_of_Rainham View Post
... Now the EU has its sights set on "Tax dodging", the money men want out...
They may want to get out but they might just have to leave their dosh behind?

I posted a link earlier https://www.independent.co.uk/news/l...-a8239956.html that showed a distinct two faced approach to tax dodging.

Within the very highest echelon of the EU, a single vote has prevented the tax dodging prevention legislation from taking place.
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Old 12th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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They may want to get out but they might just have to leave their dosh behind?

I posted a link earlier that showed a distinct two faced approach to tax dodging. Within the very highest echelon of the EU, a single vote has prevented the tax dodging prevention legislation from taking place.
That sounds like the vote of 2013, when Juncker, who was still finance minister for Luxembourg, had no option but to do his best for his country. He is no longer a Luxembourgish minister, and has recently said that he supports action against tax dodging.

Graham: "now Trump is clipping the wings of the EPA and the other agencies as he sings along to the tune of big business." Yes, indeed, and this is the man that we want a deal from! We have to be mad to expect a good deal from Trump's USA - after all, his mantra of "America First" isn't there for fun! Did you see that he has OK'd I think it was something like mineral extraction on hitherto pristine land that was a native American reserve? He doesn't give a tuppenny damn for anything but money and power. IMV.
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  #523  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

And they'd doubtless want a contribution to the huge costs associated with the colossal waste of their time!
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  #524  
Old 12th August 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Graham_of_Rainham View Post
We canít even get close to EU air quality standards in London.
When we're out of the EU we won't need to observe EU standards - or any others for that matter. Job done!

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  #525  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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All these demands to scrap Brexit by various people on here are fine
I certainly don't demand that we scrap Brexit - there still isn't a groundswell of opinion that we do so.

I suspect that we'll leave and after a period of grinding austerity, that the Brexiteers will have to suck up, there will be a clamour to rejoin. There may also be major civil unrest and hopefully the heads of Johnson, Davis, Fox, Rees-Mogg etc. will end up on spikes on London Bridge - and I'll give a hand to put them there!

Jim
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