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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

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  #61  
Old 24th April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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I'm not religious but I'm not anti-religion, in general. Sadly, religion is the main source of human conflict.

Ian
I am also not religious but tolerant of the beliefs of others. I do feel that often conflict and atrocities are carried out "In The Name Of Religion" by those who are not truly religious but simply evil human beings who need a label to justify their actions.

How far Off Topic can this thread get

Jax
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  #62  
Old 24th April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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This really is part of the answer. Less cars on the roads can only be a benefit.

But of course our political masters don't look long term, just long enough to get in next time.
There is some evidence that the trend towards car ownership is in decline - at least here in the UK. The modernisation of car hire and taxi services will also be a factor. There are already care sharing schemes where you can let a stranger use your car for a fee when you aren't using it. Uber and the like have made private hire services much more popular as well.

Elon Musk believes in a fully autonomous future for cars, so you could order a car for the day or whatever and it drives itself to you and drives away again when you have finished with it. I'm inclined to think this will take quite a bit longer than many of the predicions, but it will come eventually.

In fact Tesla have just announced all theur cars currently in production have the latest higher-performance hardware suitable for fully autonomous driving.

I'm rather comforted by the fact the fact that when I'm too old to drive a conventional car safely, cars will almost certainly be smart enough that I will still be able to use them!

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  #63  
Old 24th April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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I am also not religious but tolerant of the beliefs of others. I do feel that often conflict and atrocities are carried out "In The Name Of Religion" by those who are not truly religious but simply evil human beings who need a label to justify their actions.

How far Off Topic can this thread get

Jax
I fully support that sentiment (religious atrocities in the 'name' of religion, rather than religion per se) but I would like to see all religions work harder and together to neutralise the fundamentalist evil acted out in their names. And by that I don't mean use war against war.

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  #64  
Old 24th April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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I am also not religious but tolerant of the beliefs of others. I do feel that often conflict and atrocities are carried out "In The Name Of Religion" by those who are not truly religious but simply evil human beings who need a label to justify their actions.

How far Off Topic can this thread get

Jax
I was having the same thought about the thread going off topic - it shows how the human mind creates linkages.
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  #65  
Old 24th April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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I'm rather comforted by the fact the fact that when I'm too old to drive a conventional car safely, cars will almost certainly be smart enough that I will still be able to use them!

Ian
I could be approaching that situation rather sooner than I imagined. Given the lack of Smart Cars at the moment I will possibly be relying on the driving skills of SWMBO or paying for taxis. Neither of these two options provide much comfort to me.

Jax
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  #66  
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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Purely as a point of interest from someone who has never considered purchasing an electric car :

With a conventionally fueled car, if, for whatever reason you run out of fuel, a friendly RAC or AA man or even a hitch to the nearest filling station with a can usually solves the problem. What happens with an electric vehicle in similar circumstances ?

Jax
There are a lot of public charging points around that the recovery service could transport you to and of course you can plug in to a standard socket, though it would take several hours to get a handful of miles charged up.

It's worth noting that most EVs have quite sophisticated means of monitoring electrical usage and so predict realistic range, so the idea is that you shouldn't get into this situation in the first place

With Teslas you can also plan a route using the car's own nav system with Superchargers strategically located on the way. It can even estimate which Superchargers you should top up at along your route.

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  #67  
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
Well you really wouldn't want an Apple software update on your four year old Tesla car. Maximum speed would be limited to 40 MPH "to protect the battery" (and no doubt to force you to buy a new one).
Very amusing but that reality with Teslas is that they constantly receive software updates and this means functions previously unavailable have been unlocked over time and the cars perform better.

Like computers and phones, the hardware does also change. The three-year-old car we're expecting to buy will be the last of the 'first-generation' semi-autonomous cars, with radar and proximity sensing and computation from the Israeli MobileEye company. Since the end of 2016 Tesla have used significantly more powerful NVIDIA computing in conjunction with more external sensors and cameras. Just in the last few weeks Tesla has upgraded the computational power again to an in-house developed module that is apparently over 20x more powerful than the NVIDIA hardware.

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  #68  
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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I was having the same thought about the thread going off topic - it shows how the human mind creates linkages.
If everyone seems content with the conversation then there isn't a problem, is there?

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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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Very amusing but that reality with Teslas is that they constantly receive software updates and this means functions previously unavailable have been unlocked over time and the cars perform better.

Like computers and phones, the hardware does also change. The three-year-old car we're expecting to buy will be the last of the 'first-generation' semi-autonomous cars, with radar and proximity sensing and computation from the Israeli MobileEye company. Since the end of 2016 Tesla have used significantly more powerful NVIDIA computing in conjunction with more external sensors and cameras. Just in the last few weeks Tesla has upgraded the computational power again to an in-house developed module that is apparently over 20x more powerful than the NVIDIA hardware.

Ian

I understand you can download and update the software the car uses - again it takes a certain amount of trust though to update something that your life depends on, but I guess its the same in a conventional car the garage can and does update the firmware.

Is the compute module itself an upgradeable item if you have an older car?
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  #70  
Old 24th April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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Absolutely true. We can't have people using 4-year-old technology got to have the latest version.
On the outside, the three year old Tesla we are looking at buying is discernably the same as today's showroom models, with only reasonably subtle styling changes. In fact the interiors are almost identical.

But the smart hardware has changed a great deal. 2013-2016 cars have one front facing radar and one front-facing camera plus ultrasonic sensors all around.

These cars can auto-steer on roads with clear lane markings and also automatically maintain a safe distance from the car in front. You can also change lane and overtake simply by using the indicator. They can also auto-park, can be driven at a walking pace from a parked position using an app - this is called 'Summon'. Some obstacle-avoidance capability is also provided as well as blind-spot warning. Speed limit adherence is also provided.

Late 2016 - early 2019 cares have a lot more computing power and more sensors, including cameras that cover a 360 degree view. These can be used as security cameras as well. These cars can do a lot more in the way of autonomous functions and will work better on roads that are not so well defined by road markings. Even so, the software is still not mature, so owners of these cars can expect a lot of additional functionality and performance improvements.

2019 cars are now said to have enough computing and sensory performance for full autonomous driving but that doesn't mean they are autonomous yet - a lot of software development work will be needed to enable that, not to mention localisation and type approval.

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  #71  
Old 24th April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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I understand you can download and update the software the car uses - again it takes a certain amount of trust though to update something that your life depends on, but I guess its the same in a conventional car the garage can and does update the firmware.

Is the compute module itself an upgradeable item if you have an older car?
The 2016 car we're looking at can't be physically upgraded. I do look a bit enviously at the newer cars but to be honest the 2016 car has enough automation for now!

For late 2016-early 2019 cars there was a CPU upgrade and it has been possible for earlier cars in this time period to be upgraded to the later spec. computing module. I'm not sure about the very latest upgrade only announced this week.

At this stage you are still supposed to be in full control of the car and should be holding the steering wheel.

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  #72  
Old 24th April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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With the right electricity deal, overnight charging at home can be as low as around 5p per KWH. On a Tesla Model S 85D, which is a large car, that computes to a realistic 2 pence per mile - even less if you drive economically. A 50MPG diesel costs around 11 pence per mile in fuel.

Ian
I don't dispute your figures Ian, but if you were to take the road fuel duty and 20% VAT off of Diesel the costs would be much closer.

Presumably at some point we will move away from fuel duties to 'road pricing' or similar so that all vehicles contribute to the public purse; at which point the tax advantage currently enjoyed by electric vehicles will evaporate.

Also, be careful when calculating electricity costs as you will need to put much more power into the storage batteries than you will ever get out. This is very different to conventional fuel tank where you expect to get the same volume of fuel out as you put in. There are also losses involved in [electrically] heating the storage batteries to the required temperature.

Regarding off-peak electricity; there are two systems in use at present. The old Economy 7 and now Economy 10 tariffs provide cheaper electricity during set off-peak periods overnight, and in the middle of the day. However, I recently discovered that off-peak periods vary by electricity region, so the London area, for example, will have different off-peak times to other parts of the country. This is because of the demands of large industrial users in those areas.

The second system uses 'smart chargers' and other 'smart' devices that only draw power when the grid is in surplus. This works by detecting when the grid frequency is exactly 50 Hz or above. This is much preferred by NG for obvious reasons, but depending on the overall load, weather conditions and so forth there is no guarantee that you will be able to charge your car at any given time, although the grid must, by law, average 50 Hz over a 24 Hour day except in exceptional circumstances.

Having read all of the interesting viewpoints expressed above I should perhaps remind everyone that it wasn't so long ago we were all told to switch to diesel to save the planet.
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  #73  
Old 24th April 2019
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

The product marketing view of a product's lifecycle was defined by Geoffrey.A.Moore in the early 1990s.



Many products don't get across the chasm and enter the mainstream.

At best I would suggest electric cars are entering the early adopter stage.

I was in the late majority of Diesel users, and now with hindsight, I wish I had waited.
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

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The product marketing view of a product's lifecycle was defined by Geoffrey.A.Moore in the early 1990s.



Many products don't get across the chasm and enter the mainstream.

At best I would suggest electric cars are entering the early adopter stage.

I was in the late majority of Diesel users, and now with hindsight, I wish I had waited.
I've hired diesels and Julia had a diesel company car for a while but I have never owned a diesel. The amount of smoke produced by even new diesels put me off and even the high-tech diesels with particulate filters seemed to be problematic from owner-feedback. The fact that they have needed more frequent oil changes was also a put-off.

It's quite clear to me that the internal combustion engine for general vehicular power is on the way out. It will take a long time, but electricity is the future. But I also conceded that it will also take time for electric cars and the infrastructure to reach peak efficiency. However, you need to start somewhere!

Ian
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Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

As I said, you don't buy a Tesla - indeed most EVs currently - to save money; the actual cost of EVs for most of us means the total cost of ownership is higher than a conventional car.

But the 'fuel' cost is definitely a significant saving over a conventional diesel and even more so over a petrol car. The petrol/diesel in your car has to also power the airconditioning, lights, power steering. Combustion engine efficiency is also affected by environmental temperature and atmospheric pressure (altitude) and even humidity.

The battery storage efficiency issue is a good point but in practice I understand it's not that significant.

Certainly, there will be regional differences in terms of electrical supply cost - the same applies to petrol and diesel pricing.

The future for having a smart electricity supply regime is very interesting; automatically buying and storing (in your car, for example) electricity when it's cheap and even selling back to the grid when it's expensive can't come soon enough in my book. This will also make solar and home-battery systems even more attractive as well as helping the electricity supply infrastructure work better.

Saving 200-300 on the road tax for an EV is a nice bonus but not a deal breaker if it comes back, is it? The same applies to the Congestion Charge in London.

The diesel argument was simplistic; diesel is more energy dense per litre than petrol. But particulates and Ntrous oxide pollution were not factored in. And to be honest neither were the price premiums of diesel cars over petrol ones. At the time I was frustrated by the move to diesel just at a time when companies like Toyota were starting to demonstrate that petrol engines could be made significantly more efficient while remaining cleaner.

It's very clear that EVs are more expensive and the savings in running them will not fully compensate for the extra purchase costs. However, apart from wanting to make a contribution to the ecology effort, my wife is very keen on the Tesla's abilities to make driving safer and more interesting. We're unashamedly also making a rare self-indulgent purchase of an expensive luxury car that also has a lot of performance

Ian

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
I don't dispute your figures Ian, but if you were to take the road fuel duty and 20% VAT off of Diesel the costs would be much closer.

Presumably at some point we will move away from fuel duties to 'road pricing' or similar so that all vehicles contribute to the public purse; at which point the tax advantage currently enjoyed by electric vehicles will evaporate.

Also, be careful when calculating electricity costs as you will need to put much more power into the storage batteries than you will ever get out. This is very different to conventional fuel tank where you expect to get the same volume of fuel out as you put in. There are also losses involved in [electrically] heating the storage batteries to the required temperature.

Regarding off-peak electricity; there are two systems in use at present. The old Economy 7 and now Economy 10 tariffs provide cheaper electricity during set off-peak periods overnight, and in the middle of the day. However, I recently discovered that off-peak periods vary by electricity region, so the London area, for example, will have different off-peak times to other parts of the country. This is because of the demands of large industrial users in those areas.

The second system uses 'smart chargers' and other 'smart' devices that only draw power when the grid is in surplus. This works by detecting when the grid frequency is exactly 50 Hz or above. This is much preferred by NG for obvious reasons, but depending on the overall load, weather conditions and so forth there is no guarantee that you will be able to charge your car at any given time, although the grid must, by law, average 50 Hz over a 24 Hour day except in exceptional circumstances.

Having read all of the interesting viewpoints expressed above I should perhaps remind everyone that it wasn't so long ago we were all told to switch to diesel to save the planet.
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