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The lounge Relax, take a break from photo and camera talk - have a chat about something else for a change. Just keep it clean and polite!

View Poll Results: Are you getting fed up with Brexit and should we go back to discussing other things ?
YES - Close the thread 19 48.72%
NO - Keep the debate going on for eternity 20 51.28%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1276  
Old 18th September 2018
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
T Even the most optimistic Brexiteers now seem to accept that there will be at least short term hardship.
You mean, people may have to go to food banks and social services may be cut back? We don't want that, so let's stay in.

Harold
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  #1277  
Old 18th September 2018
TimP TimP is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Right or wrong, Brexit must happen if we’re to uphold democracy in this country. I personally feel Brexit is crazy but it was arrived at democratically, and before everyone jumps in saying the information given was wrong (the ‘losing’ side always says that), it was the only info we had at the time and only now are we suffering a deluge of dire warnings about what might happen. No-one knowswhat will happen, everything is pure speculation. It might go horribly wrong, it might improve things. Just cos a lot of people don’t like the result it’s not a reason to try for a result they do like.
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  #1278  
Old 18th September 2018
Jim Ford Jim Ford is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Right or wrong, Brexit must happen if we’re to uphold democracy in this country.
I agree. Post Brexit is going to be like a huge dose of castor oil for the country, to purge the idea that it was a good idea out of the electorate for 100 years.

Jim
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  #1279  
Old 18th September 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by TimP View Post
Right or wrong, Brexit must happen if we’re to uphold democracy in this country.

Democracy means people are allowed to change their minds.
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  #1280  
Old 18th September 2018
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Otto View Post
Democracy means people are allowed to change their minds.
When, the next day, month, year? How often? If you think we has uncertainty now...

Harold
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  #1281  
Old 18th September 2018
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Graham_of_Rainham Graham_of_Rainham is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Harold Gough View Post
When, the next day, month, year? How often? If you think we has uncertainty now...

Harold
When the vast majority of people think that the “government” is making a complete mess of the process...

There needs to be a system that allows the people to vote an MP out of office whenever they fail to fulfill the pledges and promises that they make.
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  #1282  
Old 18th September 2018
Rebecca Rebecca is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimP View Post
Right or wrong, Brexit must happen if we’re to uphold democracy in this country. I personally feel Brexit is crazy but it was arrived at democratically, and before everyone jumps in saying the information given was wrong (the ‘losing’ side always says that), it was the only info we had at the time and only now are we suffering a deluge of dire warnings about what might happen. No-one knowswhat will happen, everything is pure speculation. It might go horribly wrong, it might improve things. Just cos a lot of people don’t like the result it’s not a reason to try for a result they do like.
I try not to get involved in political debates but I have to say the above post by Timp is the most sensible and intelligent comment I've seen so far on here.

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Originally Posted by Otto View Post
Democracy means people are allowed to change their minds.
Ohh dear Otto, you can't possibly be serious Democracy means people abide by the view of the majority after holding a democratic vote. It has nothing to do with changing of minds or we would be holding a new referendum every month.

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Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
I agree. Post Brexit is going to be like a huge dose of castor oil for the country, to purge the idea that it was a good idea out of the electorate for 100 years.

Jim
Poor Jim, I think his needle's stuck yet again, same old comment. Repetition is so boring Jim.

I was initially surprised by the number of posts on this topic but it's becoming clear why now, same old comments repeated over and over with just a slightly different dressing.

I would have thought with such a high number of older, retired, Male Armchair Politicians on here the comments would have been far more original



Rebecca
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  #1283  
Old 18th September 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Rebecca View Post
I try not to get involved in political debates but I have to say the above post by Timp is the most sensible and intelligent comment I've seen so far on here.



Ohh dear Otto, you can't possibly be serious Democracy means people abide by the view of the majority after holding a democratic vote. It has nothing to do with changing of minds or we would be holding a new referendum every month.



Poor Jim, I think his needle's stuck yet again, same old comment. Repetition is so boring Jim.

I was initially surprised by the number of posts on this topic but it's becoming clear why now, same old comments repeated over and over with just a slightly different dressing.

I would have thought with such a high number of older, retired, Male Armchair Politicians on here the comments would have been far more original



Rebecca
Well said Rebecca. It isn't just the repetition which is boring, but the predictability of the comments from certain members.

Indeed, I suspect some here would enquire of a Paramedics politics before allowing them to use the Defibrillator!
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  #1284  
Old 18th September 2018
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
I think there are going to be a lot of very angry people next year as people that voted for Brexit lose their jobs and the value of any money they've saved.
In 2001, when there was no more than a low level background of discussion on possibly leaving the EU, nearly a decade before the financial crash and a decade and a half before the referendum, I lost my job, as did about 3,000 colleagues.

At that time we were about as embedded in the EU as we have ever been.

The value of money has dropped by about 95% since the 1960s, during which time we joined the EU.

Apportion blame where you like but these things happen independently of EU membership. Major employers dump large numbers of staff from time to time. They then recruit again after the reduction in salaries NI, etc,. has improved the bottom line.

In a (10 year) earlier exercise, some colleagues were in the "Exit Lounge", having lost their jobs and engaged in looking for new ones, only to share the room (I don't get why) with their incoming replacements and were not allowed to apply for their old jobs.

It's a nasty world out there and always will be. It has, reality, little or nothing to do with membership of the EU.

Harold
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  #1285  
Old 18th September 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Gough View Post
In 2001, when there was no more than a low level background of discussion on possibly leaving the EU, nearly a decade before the financial crash and a decade and a half before the referendum, I lost my job, as did about 3,000 colleagues.

At that time we were about as embedded in the EU as we have ever been.

The value of money has dropped by about 95% since the 1960s, during which time we joined the EU.

Apportion blame where you like but these things happen independently of EU membership. Major employers dump large numbers of staff from time to time. They then recruit again after the reduction in salaries NI, etc,. has improved the bottom line.

In a (10 year) earlier exercise, some colleagues were in the "Exit Lounge", having lost their jobs and engaged in looking for new ones, only to share the room (I don't get why) with their incoming replacements and were not allowed to apply for their old jobs.

It's a nasty world out there and always will be. It has, reality, little or nothing to do with membership of the EU.

Harold
Yup. Been there done that in 1977 (from Courtaulds), 1980 (from a French company), and in 1993 from Courtaulds again.

None of these redundancies had anything to Europe, but everything to do with crass bad management and short termism, which had become a major problem in British industry as far back as the 1970's if not before.

Interestingly Europe was cited by management as the reason for redundancies (the phrase about 'needing to be slimmer and fitter to compete in the common European market' was often trotted out), but this was just bollox.

In answer to Harold's question, there are two reasons why businesses cannot or will not re-employ redundant workers. The first is that redundancy payments are tax free, therefore HMRC stipulate that redundant workers must not return to the same employer within (IIRC) 2½ years unless tax is paid.

The second, more obvious reason is that the new employees will be earning less than those that they replace, although employment law says that you cannot recruit new staff to fill the places of redundant workers for a certain length of time.

Having said that, when I worked for Courtaulds we always used to check the works noticeboards to see whether our jobs were advertised there. Illegitimi.
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  #1286  
Old 18th September 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Otto View Post
Democracy means people are allowed to change their minds.
Why am I doubting you’d say that if the situation was reversed.
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  #1287  
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Why am I doubting you’d say that if the situation was reversed.
Exactly. Would we be allowed a second vote if Corbyn was elected to No 10?
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  #1288  
Old 18th September 2018
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post

redundancy payments are tax free,
Only the first £30,000, which was a hell of a lot when introduced but it was never increased in 30 or 40 years.

My employer stopped paying the excess over £30,000 into the pension scheme, for new leavers, the year after I left.

In a conversation with my boss at the meeting where I was made redundant, he said something about my redundancy being approved by the pension scheme, who would pay for it. I can find no trace of this aspect in a Google search.

This means that pension funds suffer from mass redundancies.

Harold
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  #1289  
Old 18th September 2018
Jim Ford Jim Ford is offline
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
In answer to Harold's question, there are two reasons why businesses cannot or will not re-employ redundant workers. The first is that redundancy payments are tax free, therefore HMRC stipulate that redundant workers must not return to the same employer within (IIRC) 2½ years unless tax is paid.

The second, more obvious reason is that the new employees will be earning less than those that they replace, although employment law says that you cannot recruit new staff to fill the places of redundant workers for a certain length of time.
In redundancy it's not the employees that are redundant, it's the position they fill. It's the job that's redundant, not the person doing the job. That's why employers can't declare someone to be redundant, and employ someone else to do the same job.

Jim
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  #1290  
Old 18th September 2018
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Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...

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Originally Posted by Jim Ford View Post
In redundancy it's not the employees that are redundant, it's the position they fill. It's the job that's redundant, not the person doing the job. That's why employers can't declare someone to be redundant, and employ someone else to do the same job.

Jim
Thank you Jim. That was along the lines that I was thinking but you put it so much better.
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