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-   -   Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering... (http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47199)

Otto 22nd February 2018 12:55 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
I seem to recall Farage himself saying before the vote that a "52-48 result would be unfinished business". That's exactly what we have got though because it's in his favour he's shut up about it. I strongly suspect there will be civil unrest anyway.

By the way, the Brexit thread on Alfaowner.com has now reached 9386 posts on 376 pages, and they haven't reached a conclusion either :D.

DerekW 22nd February 2018 01:18 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
If in a committee of say 10 people plus a chairman there is a debate about moving away from an existing practice, there is a vote on whether to change to a new practice and the vote is 5 for 5 against changing the the chairman is required to vote to maintain the existing practice.

The referendum was badly or imprecisely defined. There should have been a requirement for a minimum turnout of say 65% of eligible voters and 15% majority.

The Brexiteers do not have a proven majority of the population. Hence they do not speak for the country.

I have heard comments on the TV from Brexiteers saying "Now we are out of the EU, whey are the Pakistanis still here"

Otto 22nd February 2018 01:25 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnheatingman (Post 440630)
If the evidence in court was provided by the government, politicians and media it would always be challenged as unreliable. In the case of the referendum, it seems to have been the only evidence provided to the public, as will probably always be the case in any referendum. We either have to accept and live with it, or find a better more acceptable reliable system.

The present system mght be better if it required a minimum margin of (say) 60-40 and a minimum turnout of 80% of the electorate.

I now see DerekW has said pretty much the same thing :).

Otto 22nd February 2018 02:05 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Just how much is the current fiasco costing us? If the minimum parameters were not met, that would mean that too few people wanted change. That would be the end of the story and the status quo would remain. Until the next time *chr.

Naughty Nigel 22nd February 2018 02:28 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnheatingman (Post 440630)
If the evidence in court was provided by the government, politicians and media it would always be challenged as unreliable. In the case of the referendum, it seems to have been the only evidence provided to the public, as will probably always be the case in any referendum. We either have to accept and live with it, or find a better more acceptable reliable system.

John

Evidence given in Court is delivered in a very different way to an election or referendum.
  1. All witnesses are required to swear an oath before giving evidence;
  2. Witnesses are routinely cross examined to establish facts from fiction, in what is a very dry and sterile environment (and difficult to lie in);
  3. Cross examination can take hours or even days, which is very different to giving ten-second sound-bites on radio or television;
  4. Judges can order that a witnesses' evidence is disregarded if they believe the witness is seeking to mislead the Court. (I have seen this happen many times.);
  5. Anyone who lies or deliberately gives false evidence in a Court of Law is liable to be charged with Perjury; a very serious criminal offence which can result in lengthy jail terms!

I have been trying to avoid taking sides on this debate, but I think it will be seen that had this been a trial at Court, "witnesses" from both sides would almost certainly be looking at a spell inside for the "evidence" they have given to date! *yes

Jim Ford 22nd February 2018 05:30 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wornish (Post 440580)
Yes I certainly read. If we remain will it make any difference ?

So that's the fall back situation for the leavers however bad it gets when we leave - 'It would've been the same if we remained!'

Jim

wornish 22nd February 2018 05:45 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Ford (Post 440651)
So that's the fall back situation for the leavers however bad it gets when we leave - 'It would've been the same if we remained!'

Jim

Think you are missing my point.

Jobs will come and go if we remain, as they have whilst we have been members. Being a member does not protect us against global change or EU mis management. Just look at whats happened some of our industries as I pointed out in an earlier post. We have also paid $Billions for the pleasure of losing jobs.

If we leave we save the money we pay out and can use those savings to develop new jobs in expanding market areas or even increase funding for the NHS.

Naughty Nigel 22nd February 2018 05:56 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Ford (Post 440651)
So that's the fall back situation for the leavers however bad it gets when we leave - 'It would've been the same if we remained!'

Jim

Equally, the same argument could be used by the Brexiteers.

One thing is sure; leaving won't be made any easier if we ask for a stay of execution. :rolleyes:

Graham_of_Rainham 22nd February 2018 09:41 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Its referendum time again... :D

Vote in the "Poll" at the top of the page.

wornish 22nd February 2018 09:47 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Think Brexiters might be getting through, Remainers are not used to being challenged. and now want to close the thread.

That said, so do I, this one will run forever.


Lets go take pictures *yes

Zuiko 22nd February 2018 10:03 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wornish (Post 440656)
Think you are missing my point.

Jobs will come and go if we remain, as they have whilst we have been members. Being a member does not protect us against global change or EU mis management. Just look at whats happened some of our industries as I pointed out in an earlier post. We have also paid $Billions for the pleasure of losing jobs.

If we leave we save the money we pay out and can use those savings to develop new jobs in expanding market areas or even increase funding for the NHS.

It is my opinion (and it can only be an opinion because our incompetent Government have failed to do any impact assessments) that what we gain in savings from our EU budget contributions will be more than wiped out by lost trade. I really, really hope that you are proved right and I am forced to eat humble pie, but from where I am standing we are about to take a huge gamble on our future prosperity with the odds stacked firmly against us.

Naughty Nigel 22nd February 2018 10:25 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
But do we have sufficient reliable information to vote whether to keep this thread open?

And if we make the wrong decision can we vote again? :D

wornish 22nd February 2018 10:28 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuiko (Post 440697)
It is my opinion (and it can only be an opinion because our incompetent Government have failed to do any impact assessments) that what we gain in savings from our EU budget contributions will be more than wiped out by lost trade. I really, really hope that you are proved right and I am forced to eat humble pie, but from where I am standing we are about to take a huge gamble on our future prosperity with the odds stacked firmly against us.


The UK needs the confidence to go out in the big bad world beyond the EU and fight its corner to make us succeed. We don't need to hang on the shirttails of anyone.

Of course I hope and believe the leavers are right. I certainly won't stop fighting for my country its served me and my family well. Cant say that EU membership has done a single thing that benefits us. When I ask questions on this thread about what the EU will be like going forward no one answers. But they do have answers for what will happen if we leave even thirty years out ! Strange isn't it.

Remainers seem to want the UK to just give up and be a group of subservient regional councils in an undemocratic failing entity that only wants our money and to punish anyone who dares to disagree.

Seen that before in history somewhere .....?

Graham_of_Rainham 22nd February 2018 10:42 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel (Post 440699)
But do we have sufficient reliable information to vote whether to keep this thread open?

And if we make the wrong decision can we vote again? :D

The question you should be asking is ... what is sufficient, how reliable and what sort of "open" are you considering ?

Of course there can be another vote! Especially if the result is not what is wanted. We can debate the status of the vote, and if it is representative of the membership or just those that voted.

But be quick, as the poll shuts in FIVE days.

KeithL 22nd February 2018 10:56 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wornish (Post 440701)
The UK needs the confidence to go out in the big bad world beyond the EU and fight its corner to make us succeed. We don't need to hang on the shirttails of anyone.

Of course I hope and believe the leavers are right. I certainly won't stop fighting for my country its served me and my family well. Cant say that EU membership has done a single thing that benefits us. When I ask questions on this thread about what the EU will be like going forward no one answers. But they do have answers for what will happen if we leave even thirty years out ! Strange isn't it.

Remainers seem to want the UK to just give up and be a group of subservient regional councils in an undemocratic failing entity that only wants our money and to punish anyone who dares to disagree.

Seen that before in history somewhere .....?

British firms have not been good at getting business in the EU, which after all IS a free trade area, and is on their doorstep. I wouldn't expect those firms to go to the other side of the world for business if they are too lazy to try to get business that is on their doorstep.

The most important issues though are, for me, that the referendum was a bad joke. Most countries that hold a referendum or vote on a constitutional change - which this effectively is - require that ALL the electorate vote, and that there is at least a 10%, more usually 15% or so, for the status quo to be overturned.

At the same time, if the government had done its job properly, and done its homework BEFORE the vote, and presented FACTS to the voters, then all of us could trust the result. As it is, 36% voted to leave, against 63% that did not, either through voting against, or not voting. That really is a pernicious situation which is not only stoking division and dissent now, but will continue to do so into the future.


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