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-   -   Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering... (http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47199)

Wally 14th February 2018 03:29 PM

Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
According to rumours… The UK is doomed?

What or who to believe? --> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business

And then, there is this? --> https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news...id=mailsignout

Perhaps certain high-lighted links could explain why so called negotiations are not being negotiated? :confused:

pdk42 14th February 2018 03:57 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Look at the big picture...

- UK is a small, post industrial nation with severe productivity challenges (skills, infrastructure, capital investment, regional imbalances, ...)

- Europe is one of the world's biggest and richest markets and makes up 50% of our trade.

- Euro currency union probably a mistake

What we want is to be part of the EU and its internal market but not the Euro. Oh, hang on - isn't that what we have now?

Jim Ford 14th February 2018 04:04 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Spot on Paul, spot on!

Jim

Jim Ford 14th February 2018 04:08 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally (Post 439812)
Perhaps certain high-lighted links could explain why so called negotiations are not being negotiated? :confused:

Because David 'Thick as Mince' Davis is just strolling around with his hands in his pockets and a smug look on his face!

Jim

MJ224 14th February 2018 04:20 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Am/was not a leaver, but now we are at the leaving point, I think we need to break free of the EU and not be a hanger on,

We, as a country want to be independent, and there are plenty of opportunities out there to make it a success. Gonna be a year or two before it works out tho'.

EU are not being helpful, which is understandable. Why should they??

Lets just get on with it. EU needs us as much as we need them, re exports certainly.

My regret is that we will not have a RIGHT to live there, as they do us.............................

(Not an expert on the matter, but kinda sitting on the fence)

:confused::confused:

pdk42 14th February 2018 04:29 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ224 (Post 439822)
Am/was not a leaver, but now we are at the leaving point, I think we need to break free of the EU and not be a hanger on,

We, as a country want to be independent, and there are plenty of opportunities out there to make it a success. Gonna be a year or two before it works out tho'.

EU are not being helpful, which is understandable. Why should they??

Lets just get on with it. EU needs us as much as we need them, re exports certainly.

My regret is that we will not have a RIGHT to live there, as they do us.............................

(Not an expert on the matter, but kinda sitting on the fence)

:confused::confused:

We've got much, much more to lose than EU. That's why the "negotiations" are doomed. We'll get screwed no matter what. We need to get this stupid decision reversed. Another referendum or a general election where the EU question is the key agenda item is needed desperately. We're in a complete mess right now and I just don't see any way out.

Theresa May's government is floundering. Massive splits in Tory party. Negotiations nowhere. It's crisis time!

KeithL 14th February 2018 04:36 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
The biggest single problem with Brexit is the total lack of evaluation of all the diverse aspects that have to be addressed. If we had wanted out, say 35 years ago, it would have been relatively simple. Today it is anything but. The evaluation should have been done BEFORE the referendum; an over-simplistic referendum followed by triggering exit without even thinking about what the issues would be, what it would cost us, etc, etc, was about as incompetent as it could possibly get. Now we are resorting to blind faith and hubris, again without any evaluation of these allegedly wonderful opportunities, history will undoubtedly repeat itself.

I think the upshot will be that we leave without any sort of deal. And I have to say, for the first time in my life, I fear the future.

pdk42 14th February 2018 04:44 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KeithL (Post 439826)
The biggest single problem with Brexit is the total lack of evaluation of all the diverse aspects that have to be addressed. If we had wanted out, say 35 years ago, it would have been relatively simple. Today it is anything but. The evaluation should have been done BEFORE the referendum; an over-simplistic referendum followed by triggering exit without even thinking about what the issues would be, what it would cost us, etc, etc, was about as incompetent as it could possibly get. Now we are resorting to blind faith and hubris, again without any evaluation of these allegedly wonderful opportunities, history will undoubtedly repeat itself.

I think the upshot will be that we leave without any sort of deal. And I have to say, for the first time in my life, I fear the future.

Totally agree - that's why we need to get it reversed.

Jim Ford 14th February 2018 04:50 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ224 (Post 439822)
We, as a country want to be independent, and there are plenty of opportunities out there to make it a success.

I believe that Liam Fox is in secret negotiations to export the entire turnip crop of Norfolk to Vanuatu, when we leave!

Jim

jdal 14th February 2018 04:52 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
What I don't get is this sovereignty thing which people drone on about.

Large tracts of our industry, services & infrastructure projects are owned by foreign companies, and we are leaking wealth at an alarming rate - look at the ONS Balance Of Payments figures here. Every trade deal you make as a small country with a more powerful one makes this worse.

This is not just about money, it means that our jobs & regional prosperity are at the whim of unelected foreigners. And not EU "bureaucrats" like "The Right Honourable Member for the 19th Century" would have you believe, but Japanese car manufacturers, Indian Steel Companies, Far Eastern banks etc. Where said MP probably has lots of money invested.

Sovereignty? Don't make me laugh.

MJ224 14th February 2018 08:39 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
ye but...............

We do have professions that work well here. I am not an original Brexiter, but now the cast is set, altho on a tricky count, I don't see a way back. EU would insist we do the Euro bit, which ^^cks up many local economics. Look at Greece.

Its a bloody mess I agree, but lets get on with the process.............

We do have to be focused, don't care bout customs union, we need to be free...........

Eventually we will e good. (may take a few years tho...:mad:)

DerekW 14th February 2018 09:13 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
It is not so depressing if you do not have the future of any descendants to worry about.

wornish 14th February 2018 09:55 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
I might be in the minority on this thread I voted to leave and the sooner we get out the better.

If the EU is such a great place why do they want to punish anyone who wants to leave ?

It is becoming clearer every day that all they want is our money.

The original Common Market we signed up to in 1974 was a good idea and still could be. But the EU as it as now become is a failing entity. It is simply a protection racket for inefficient corporate businesses. It puts up barriers against competition rather than encouraging innovation. People talk as if all trade with EU countries will stop when we leave. It won't business will continue despite the politicians.

The rest of the world is growing much faster than the EU and so its share of global GDP is shrinking. We should be doing trade deals with the areas that are growing not shackled to support those in decline.

Jim Ford 14th February 2018 10:03 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ224 (Post 439840)
EU would insist we do the Euro bit, which ^^cks up many local economics. Look at Greece.

Isn't the problem with Greece is that they borrowed a lot of money for profligate spending and they don't want to pay it back?

I read some time ago that they have more tanks than either the U.K. or France - and they're 'top of the range' German Leopards. I don't know what they're going to do with them - isn't Greece mountainous and not really tank country?

Jim

Jim Ford 14th February 2018 10:08 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wornish (Post 439844)
If the EU is such a great place why do they want to punish anyone who wants to leave ?

It is becoming clearer every day that all they want is our money.

Money that we had committed to! It's been stated that it's like a large group of people going to a pub to drink, and one of them wanting to leave when it's their turn to buy a round.

Jim

wornish 14th February 2018 10:09 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pdk42 (Post 439815)
Look at the big picture...

- UK is a small, post industrial nation with severe productivity challenges (skills, infrastructure, capital investment, regional imbalances, ...)

- Europe is one of the world's biggest and richest markets and makes up 50% of our trade.

- Euro currency union probably a mistake

What we want is to be part of the EU and its internal market but not the Euro. Oh, hang on - isn't that what we have now?

To take your points in turn

The UK is the 5th or 6th largest market in the world how is that small?

EU actually makes up 43% of our trade and falling. Also, trade won't stop when we leave, the EU does trade with China, US, and many other non members why would they stop trading with us?

I agree with your last point if you remove the word probably.

wornish 14th February 2018 10:14 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Ford (Post 439846)
Money that we had committed to! It's been stated that it's like a large group of people going to a pub to drink, and one of them wanting to leave when it's their turn to buy a round.

Jim

Think since we joined we have bought more rounds than most of the other members.

How is it our turn?

jdal 14th February 2018 10:22 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Ford (Post 439845)
Isn't the problem with Greece is that they borrowed a lot of money for profligate spending and they don't want to pay it back?

I read some time ago that they have more tanks than either the U.K. or France - and they're 'top of the range' German Leopards. I don't know what they're going to do with them - isn't Greece mountainous and not really tank country?

Jim

Nope, they were loaned money by Euro banks, largely German. These loans were as bad as the US Subprime Mortgages. When the crash came, the German banks needed bailing out, but ECB/Euro rules don't allow that. So they loaned the Greeks money which they then had to hand back to the banks. There were large repayments (3.5% of GDP) plus cripping austerity foisted on them. These conditions were enforced by threats to shut down their banks. The solutions the Socialists offered via Varoufakis (supported by Norman Lamont and others) were the only chance the creditors would ever have to get their money back, but for political reasons Merkel's side won and the Socialist government caved in and now Greece are on a permanent debt repayment regime, which can never pay back the debts because the economy can't grow because of austerity.

Also, they should never have been in the Euro. It's a complex story - have a read of Adults In The Room by the Greek ex-finance minister at the heart of the discussions, Yanis Varoufakis, a fantastic real tale of how these things operate. It made me realise just how f*cked we are dealing with IMF, China, EU, USA.

MJ224 15th February 2018 08:07 AM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Ford (Post 439845)
Isn't the problem with Greece is that they borrowed a lot of money for profligate spending and they don't want to pay it back?

I read some time ago that they have more tanks than either the U.K. or France - and they're 'top of the range' German Leopards. I don't know what they're going to do with them - isn't Greece mountainous and not really tank country?

Jim

I am no expert, but I thought the Greek situation was brought on by the Euro being their currency. If they still had their own currency, they could devalue it. Still does not sort their bad economy I know, but does give them a solution of sorts...........:confused:

Wally 15th February 2018 10:07 AM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
I opened this thread, as reading the two provided links plus the others contained within, had left me none the wiser. I am just as much in the dark, or confused as I was in the run up to the referendum vote. Yes, I am a wrinkly, and again, yes I didn’t vote. I had had enough of the military style of cooking. When it's burnt it's cooked. I left my comfort blanket behind when I found there was a superior cuisine alsewhere. After all this time, and with the ongoing shenanigans I am still none the wiser but have now had enough of this enforced FOSKID diet... the prime reason I never voted. Read into that what you will.

I liked Jim’s analogy of ducking out of buying the round of drinks in the pub. In many ways, it hits the spot. However, during the pub crawl, what if your round was where most, if not all of the others decided to go for a more expensive bevy? Here is another take: Two countries are in the final for the World Cup. Wales and Ireland, after extra time and two sets of penalties were knocked out in the semi’s. The remaining two UK teams go through the same scenario. Bottom line is that one team lost and one team won.

Take on board Jim’s scenario and add it to the above and it all seems to sound very similar to our current situation. The ordinary man /woman / supporter in the street may be well and truly pssst off with the result. In this case, one way or another we all lost. However It doesn’t help or change the result just because the big punters argue over the final result because their favourite team didn’t get the result they put their money on to win.

I’ve often thought that when it comes to international football, having four teams competing against each other, considerably lessened our chance of taking home the big prize which is exactly where we stand today. Given what we have and where we stand in the current situation, three things come to mind. United, we stand… divided we fall; It’s easier to jump ship rather than stay and bail out the water to stay afloat. The other is from a song, ‘Bring on the clowns’. Seems to me we are doing all three in grand style. Finally, irrespective of the politics… it is all about money.
*idea And now for something completely different...

A bunch of politicians walk into a bar.

As one voice, they all shout OUCH!

Serves the tossers right as they should have watched where they were going. *yes

Harold Gough 15th February 2018 10:11 AM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pdk42 (Post 439815)

- Europe is one of the world's biggest and richest markets and makes up 50% of our trade.

The truth about the European riches is that many member countries have huge debts, not just the P.I.G.S. but also (tête dans le sable) France. Their spending, funded by borrowing, cannot go on forever. When it all collapses, we want to be well clear of it.

Harold

Naughty Nigel 15th February 2018 10:35 AM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Ford (Post 439846)
It's been stated that it's like a large group of people going to a pub to drink, and one of them wanting to leave when it's their turn to buy a round.

Jim

We are still waiting from France (amongst others) to buy a round. :rolleyes:

I cannot help but feel that if Greece, Spain, Italy or any other economic basket case country had wanted to leave the EU their path would have been made very much smoother; and they would probably have received a large golden handshake too.

Naughty Nigel 15th February 2018 11:12 AM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
As much as I would like us to remain within the EU Customs Union, if our government (of either party) were to do a U-Turn now, or call another referendum, politics in the UK would be dead in the water, and it would take many years for the electorate to have any faith in the democratic process; if ever.

I also believe there would also be a very real risk of civil unrest and mob rule whichever way the new referendum went; and far too few police to deal with it.

drmarkf 15th February 2018 11:23 AM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wornish (Post 439848)
EU actually makes up 43% of our trade and falling. Also, trade won't stop when we leave, the EU does trade with China, US, and many other non members why would they stop trading with us?

Indeed.

The reason that it is falling as a proportion of the whole is that the U.K. is successfully and significantly increasing its international trade with countries such as China, the US and South Korea.

So, it is doing this while ‘shackled by the constraints of EU membership’ as Brexit supporters love to claim. So this claim is demonstrably rubbish.

jdal 15th February 2018 11:39 AM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drmarkf (Post 439865)
Indeed.

The reason that it is falling as a proportion of the whole is that the U.K. is successfully and significantly increasing its international trade with countries such as China, the US and South Korea.
.

Successful? Really? Why then do we have such a large trade deficit? I think this explains why, were I to understand the spreadsheets fully.

I'm obviously missing something here, if you have a trade deficit then surely less trade is better :confused: This stuff is way more complex than can ever be explained in soundbites.

Wally 15th February 2018 12:39 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
:eek: I seem to have heard this somewhere before... https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/othe...ons/vi-BBGfAWG

@ Jim F... has he plagiarised your comment or is the cheque still in the post? ;)

KeithL 15th February 2018 02:10 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Ford (Post 439845)
Isn't the problem with Greece is that they borrowed a lot of money for profligate spending and they don't want to pay it back?

I read some time ago that they have more tanks than either the U.K. or France - and they're 'top of the range' German Leopards. I don't know what they're going to do with them - isn't Greece mountainous and not really tank country?

Jim

I was involved with a Greek company during the 90s (during the drachma)and early 2000s |(in the Euro). our Greek partners were almost salivating over the Euro, they thought that by overvaluing the drachma, they would make a profit without any effort. The actual result was that they priced Greece out of various things, and a good example is the software business. There were quite a few American software companies in Athens, and they were there because the pay was low (due to the low drachma) and other costs too were low (likewise). After the Euro, costs rocketed, so what happened? The US companies upped sticks and moved to India and Pakistan, where, guess what, costs again were low.

The Spanish did the same, to a lesser extent; and, as with Greece, it's come back to bite them.

John D mentioned Varoufakis; in his book "The Global Minotaur", he said that big US corporations offered the Greeks banking mechanisms - he called them 'tools', IIRC - that allowed them to hide their debt from EU institutions like the ECB. Effectively they were given big loans from these American outfits, which of course needed paying back later. On top of those, they needed ECB loans when it all went wrong; and it went wrong when the US corporations wanted repaying. As they were bound to.

The EU and EC are too trusting; they expect member states to be honest with them, and don't appear to have a way of handling dishonesty.

The Greeks created an illusion to fool the EU; Leavers are also creating an illusion. The only way that illusion can be dispelled is to properly evaluate ALL the issues, and present them honestly to the electorate, and then have a second referendum where ALL the electorate is required to vote. Then we might - MIGHT - reduce the profound division that it has opened up in the country. But I think the likelihood of crashing out is rather greater!

KeithL 15th February 2018 02:14 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Naughty Nigel (Post 439864)
As much as I would like us to remain within the EU Customs Union, if our government (of either party) were to do a U-Turn now, or call another referendum, politics in the UK would be dead in the water, and it would take many years for the electorate to have any faith in the democratic process; if ever.

I also believe there would also be a very real risk of civil unrest and mob rule whichever way the new referendum went; and far too few police to deal with it.

If the referendum as it was run was an example of British democracy, God help us! When reality dawns and people start paying with their jobs, as I'm sure they will, particularly if we crash out, that's when the real risk of violence will happen. Especially if the troubles start up again in Northern Ireland.

wornish 15th February 2018 02:24 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KeithL (Post 439869)
...............


The Greeks created an illusion to fool the EU; Leavers are also creating an illusion. The only way that illusion can be dispelled is to properly evaluate ALL the issues, and present them honestly to the electorate, and then have a second referendum where ALL the electorate is required to vote. Then we might - MIGHT - reduce the profound division that it has opened up in the country. But I think the likelihood of crashing out is rather greater!


If in a second election the majority also vote to leave do we then have a third. Best out of five. That seems to be the norm for the EU, (Ireland for a recent example)

We had a democratic vote and almost two years later the government still haven't really started taking the steps necessary to leave. Any attempt to ignore this vote will destroy the electorates faith in democracy and who knows what would happen. I am certain it would not be pretty.

Soros and his minions are throwing everything they can to delay and even stop Brexit. Think we should just walk away and see what the EU then does.
We need someone with some backbone to take us forward. Not sure May is up to it she just seeks compromise after compromise.

Ricoh 15th February 2018 02:27 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
There's mention of a 2nd referendum. I'm ok with that, but are two referenda sufficient? If the outcome is reversed it becomes a draw. Do we have a penalty shoot out, toss a coin or hold a third referendum?

MJ224 15th February 2018 02:30 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Vote with your feet..............

Remainers walk up to Scotland, leavers go to the smoke.........

But I'm staying in Wales......:confused:*chr

wornish 15th February 2018 02:31 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricoh (Post 439873)
There's mention of a 2nd referendum. I'm ok with that, but are two referenda sufficient? If the outcome is reversed it becomes a draw. Do we have a penalty shoot out, toss a coin or hold a third referendum?

The EU would love us to have never ending referendums as long as we keep paying them lots of money. Why not make the transition period 50 years so everyone can plan for the change seems like a good idea. Not:D

Ricoh 15th February 2018 02:34 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Ah, a question of referenda or referendums. Origins in Latin so possibly referenda.

Let's hold a rererendum on it.

Ricoh 15th February 2018 02:37 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
The elephant in the room is the Scotland and Nothern Ireland issue, so two elephants actually.

Graham_of_Rainham 15th February 2018 02:40 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Leave or Remain; is there anyone who believes this "government" is capable of delivering a successful outcome. :confused:

Ricoh 15th February 2018 02:44 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
David Cameron should shoulder the blame for offering a referendum (just the one). It's far too complex a problem for Joe Public. Did any of the polititions mention Scotland, or Ireland and the Good Friday agreement?

KeithL 15th February 2018 03:17 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricoh (Post 439873)
There's mention of a 2nd referendum. I'm ok with that, but are two referenda sufficient? If the outcome is reversed it becomes a draw. Do we have a penalty shoot out, toss a coin or hold a third referendum?

Not if it's done properly, not the bad joke that was done in June 2016. It was effectively a constitutional change; no other country voting on a constitutional change does it on a straight FPTP vote, nor do they allow voters not to bother to vote. Only some 70% of the country voted- high for us in recent years - and that means that 36% voted leave. If everyone had been required to vote, we would know what the remaining nearly 30% wanted; as it is we have no idea. So, 36% will take us out? That's not democracy.

Compounding the felony was that both sides resorted to propaganda, not facts. We know people who wouldn't vote, because they said they had no idea what they were actually voting for, either way.

Let me put this to you: if we crash out of the EU or leave without a deal, we will lose most of what remains of the motor industry - they didn't come here to be on the outside again! - probably Airbus will pull out of N Wales (they have been talking about that for a while now). Is that what you want, or would be happy with? The motor industry employs around 700,000 people in the UK, most in suppliers. Is that a 'price worth paying'? (And, incidentally, don't tell me it won't happen; I worked in the industry for 37 years, and in high enough positions to know what I am talking about.)

Ricoh 15th February 2018 03:53 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
If you're asking me, I would definitely vote to remain, as is, with the concessions previously negotiated. If we leave and later rejoin the membership conditions will be not so good, mandatory single currency for example.

Unfortunately I think we're walking towards a financial disaster with the potential loss of industry as you say, and the valued financial aspects of our economy.

wornish 15th February 2018 04:16 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KeithL (Post 439888)

............................

Let me put this to you: if we crash out of the EU or leave without a deal, we will lose most of what remains of the motor industry - they didn't come here to be on the outside again! - probably Airbus will pull out of N Wales (they have been talking about that for a while now). Is that what you want, or would be happy with? The motor industry employs around 700,000 people in the UK, most in suppliers. Is that a 'price worth paying'? (And, incidentally, don't tell me it won't happen; I worked in the industry for 37 years, and in high enough positions to know what I am talking about.)

Robots are coming and a lot of the jobs in the motor industry will be replaced, leave or stay. Companies will invest where the workforce are prepared to change and learn new skills. Quite a lot of the car factories in the UK are world leaders in output efficiency are you saying companies will not want the benefit of our skilled workforce and management ?

Will the EU just stop buying cars next year because they are made in the UK ? The remain politicians seem to think so but business people are more pragmatic. I suppose BMW and Mercedes won't want to sell to us either.

Project Fear continues we cant possibly survive in the big bad world.
Lets all be good little EU poodles and do as we are told, keep paying them lots of £'s and let them make all our laws. :rolleyes:

pdk42 15th February 2018 05:24 PM

Re: Political: We're doomed, Captain Mannering...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wornish (Post 439890)
Robots are coming and a lot of the jobs in the motor industry will be replaced, leave or stay. Companies will invest where the workforce are prepared to change and learn new skills. Quite a lot of the car factories in the UK are world leaders in output efficiency are you saying companies will not want the benefit of our skilled workforce and management ?

Will the EU just stop buying cars next year because they are made in the UK ? The remain politicians seem to think so but business people are more pragmatic. I suppose BMW and Mercedes won't want to sell to us either.

Project Fear continues we cant possibly survive in the big bad world.
Lets all be good little EU poodles and do as we are told, keep paying them lots of £'s and let them make all our laws. :rolleyes:

Have you been reading The Daily Mail? Look at the facts not the rhetoric.

This country is already suffering an investment crash due to Brexit. Companies are already leaving. The impact on financial services will be huge. The impact on manufacturing will be huge. The impact of agriculture will be huge. There's hardly an industry that will benefit and most will suffer. Our growth is heading south compared to nearly all other major economies. The writing is writ large on very big walls.

It's only the rabid right wing press and the Boris/Gove/Rees-Mogg cabal that keeps spouting the referendum aphorisms about the EU - and they are demonstrably lies (£350m/wk for the NHS??!!).

All these arguments about the EU taking our money are complete BS. We agreed to those budgets and we are the recipients of many of the benefits from them.

As to making our laws - they're mostly about regulatory alignment and in truth are nearly always to our benefit. Having common ways of doing things leads to frictionless trade which aids commerce. In any case, if we want to deal with the EU after Brexit then we'll need to meet these regulations anyhow - the difference is that we'll no longer haves any say in their construction.


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