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-   -   Leica Elmar-r 100mm (http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43985)

ludwig 14th January 2017 11:51 AM

Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
So I've managed to get a shot of the above lens. Seems to be in very good condition, and tho I've yet to take images of the camera, I'm sure the shots I've taken are going to be good.
I'm using a k&f adapter for m4/3 and it seems to be an excellent fit.

But...

For some reason I can't focus on objects far away. I can only get in focus objects from a couple of feet away up to maybe 20 feet or so. I can't get my back fence in focus from our kitchen window and its maybe at most 15 or 20 yards from the window.

Any idea why this might be?

It doesn't feel damaged, or as though there's an issue with it, the lens seems to travel well when focussing and its seems to have a lot of scope to fine tune focus but just doesn't have the extra bit of turn required to get further objects focused. Is the adaptor incorrect or something? I know my father has an issue with a lens where it zooms but only half the distance it should due to a grub screw sticking out somewhere and stopping the lens. This doesn't feel like the same issue.

Any ideas?

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peak4 14th January 2017 12:30 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Do you have access to a micrometer or accurate digital caliper?
If so measure the thickness of your adaptor. According to this list mFT register is 19.25mm and Leica R is 47mm, so I'd expect the difference to be the thickness of the adaptor. i.e. 27.75mm.
Any more than that and it will be acting as a thin extension tube as well as a mount adaptor.

Do a bit of double checking on the measurements though, rather than just taking my word for it. This Wiki

ludwig 14th January 2017 01:03 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Dont' have digital calipers, but do have a ruler - and it looks like your number is right, going by eye.

I've checked the lens, and it is indeed stopping at bang on the infinity symbol on the markings, so it looks like the lens is doing what it should, to an extent...

peak4 14th January 2017 01:15 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ludwig (Post 403865)
Dont' have digital calipers, but do have a ruler - and it looks like your number is right, going by eye.

I've checked the lens, and it is indeed stopping at bang on the infinity symbol on the markings, so it looks like the lens is doing what it should, to an extent...

To mix my units, even 1/2mm out would be enough to cause an issue.
I've had this before with Chinese adaptors, though in my case it was too thin so a very thin shim was inserted behind the front mount to take it up to size.

ludwig 14th January 2017 01:26 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Got you - even 1mm out would have an impact - it's already quite a tight fit on the camera though - not sure if a shim would help at all. The adaptor seems quite well made though, apart from this massive issue. May have to send the adaptor back and try something else...

peak4 14th January 2017 01:41 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Yes Ludwig, I was talking about length, rather than diameter, and 1mm might well be enough to prevent infinity focus.
In your case though, if that is the issue, adding a shim would make it even worse, as it would make the adaptor even longer.
Would you have a friend with some measuring gear? Alternatively Aldi/Lidl often have callipers in for less than a tenner. There're not spectacular, but they do the job. Unfortunately there's none currently on offer at either, unless they have any old stock.
Are you on good terms with any car repairers/engine rebuilders, as they would certainly have some kit to measure it for you.
Off out for a while now, so not ignoring you if I don't reply.

ludwig 14th January 2017 02:02 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Ok doke. I have a feeling my partners dad may have a set of callipers. Maybe not digital ones though. I'll ask him when we are visiting today...

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Harold Gough 14th January 2017 02:17 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
I had an Elmarit 60mm macro which started to refuse to focus outside of the macro/close-up range. It was a lack of lubricant on the focusing helicoid.

Harold

ludwig 14th January 2017 02:22 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
This lens of mine hits a hard stop though Harold. It doesn't just tighten up at infinity it rotates to it and makes a hard stop - as if there's a small bolt sticking out to stop it rotating - that kind of thing.

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Harold Gough 14th January 2017 02:31 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ludwig (Post 403876)
This lens of mine hits a hard stop though Harold. It doesn't just tighten up at infinity it rotates to it and makes a hard stop - as if there's a small bolt sticking out to stop it rotating - that kind of thing.

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Just making sure the possiblity is covered.

If it was my lens I would find a way of moving the lens (not attached) to various distances from the camera, perhaps with a dark cloth over the gap, to see if it will form an image of a distant scene.

Harold

Harold Gough 14th January 2017 02:35 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
There is a bellows-only variant of the lens!

Harold

ludwig 14th January 2017 03:27 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Yes but mine is the helical version...

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peak4 14th January 2017 04:38 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ludwig (Post 403874)
Ok doke. I have a feeling my partners dad may have a set of calipers. Maybe not digital ones though. I'll ask him when we are visiting today...

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Micrometer or caliper (be it digital or vernier) doesn't matter, so long as you know how to read it. ;)

Where in the country are you?

ludwig 14th January 2017 04:41 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by peak4 (Post 403893)
Micrometer or caliper (be it digital or vernier) doesn't matter, so long as you know how to read it. ;)

Where in the country are you?

In Scotland...

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Simon Bee 14th January 2017 04:45 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Are you sure you have the 'infinity focus' version ? The reason I ask is because Leica made two versions of this macro lens, one that will focus to infinity and another that was meant to be mounted on a bellows, if the later it will not focus anywhere near infinity and not everyone is aware of this.

Kind regards, Simon

*** Just noticed 'posts 11 & 12' .... somehow I missed them when replying, as you have the helicoid version I would suspect the adapter is at fault.***

peak4 14th January 2017 04:53 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ludwig (Post 403894)
In Scotland...

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Bit far to travel to Sheffield or Buxton then; just a thought.

ludwig 14th January 2017 05:50 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ludwig (Post 403894)
In Scotland...

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Near Glasgow.
Quote:

Originally Posted by peak4 (Post 403893)
Micrometer or caliper (be it digital or vernier) doesn't matter, so long as you know how to read it. ;)

Where in the country are you?


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ludwig 14th January 2017 06:51 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Ok so, I managed to get hold of some electronic calipers.

27.75mm is the depth of the adaptor. I'm not sure what that's means yet - will need to look back a few posts...

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peak4 14th January 2017 07:57 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
If the figures I came up with are correct, that looks to be the correct length, so struggling for an answer now.
Sorry Ludwig.

Harold Gough 14th January 2017 08:18 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ludwig (Post 403912)
Ok so, I managed to get hold of some electronic calipers.

27.75mm is the depth of the adaptor. I'm not sure what that's means yet - will need to look back a few posts...

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I would say that there lies your problem. My Leica-R to m4/3 adaptor measures, within the limits of my ruler, exactly 27.0mm.

Harold

ludwig 14th January 2017 08:23 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Harold what make of adaptor are you using?

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peak4 14th January 2017 08:44 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
There's a fairly good explanation HERE but every set of data I can find suggests that 47 - 19.25 = 27.75mm should be correct.
Anyone else have one to measure?

Harold Gough 14th January 2017 09:00 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ludwig (Post 403937)
Harold what make of adaptor are you using?

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It has the initials RJ on it which suggest it was from RJ Cameras (several years ago).

Harold

Harold Gough 14th January 2017 09:16 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by peak4 (Post 403945)
There's a fairly good explanation HERE but every set of data I can find suggests that 47 - 19.25 = 27.75mm should be correct.
Anyone else have one to measure?

I don't know why but there are two flange to sensor distances in wide circulation for m4/3, 19.25 and 20mm. They can't both be correct.

Harold

ludwig 14th January 2017 09:33 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Weird thing is that the adaptor is actually really well made. Probably the best cheapie I've tried. But it's no use if it's not the right size...

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peak4 14th January 2017 09:49 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Harold Gough (Post 403947)
I don't know why but there are two flange to sensor distances in wide circulation for m4/3, 19.25 and 20mm. They can't both be correct.

Harold

Cheers Harold, I'd only seen the 19.25mm one. That could certainly explain the issue that Ludwig's been having.
However, I've also only ever seen 38.67mm as the register distance for full size 4/3s.
I've just measured my official MMF-3 mFT-FT adaptor, which comes out at 19.37mm; the difference between them is 19.3mm, which kind of supports the mFT register distance of 19.25mm.

Regardless of all this number churning, it does look like Ludwig's adaptor is a shade too long.

Fortunately I've got a lathe at my disposal, so in my case, since the adaptors are reasonably inexpensive, I think I'd shave a touch off the body of the adaptor, behind the R mount, and try and get it set up such that the infinity stop actually works at infinity focus, rather than a bit beyond it. If you take a bit too much off, then it could easily be shimmed out a touch.
All this is hypothetical of course as I have neither the mount or a Leica lens.

I have done this sort of thing to adapt an old Tokina lens to a night vision photo multiplier tube, but I guess this diversion isn't helping Ludwig much.

ludwig 14th January 2017 09:54 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
So these adaptors, are they just a "suck it and see" type of thing?
I'm gutted this adaptor doesn't work given how well made it seems to be.
But likewise, I can't really spend a ton of dosh on a new adaptor that will def work - it needs to be a cheapie as I'm not even sure if I'll use this lens that much - only reason I got it was it was a fantastic deal and figured it must be worth a shot...

Otto 15th January 2017 10:43 AM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
I don't know what you regard as a "cheapie" but these people are reliable and offer good customer service:

http://srb-photographic.co.uk/micro-...ors-1175-c.asp

They can probably advise on the correct length of the adaptor.

ludwig 15th January 2017 11:04 AM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Some more research required I think.

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ludwig 17th January 2017 10:06 AM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Harold Gough (Post 403947)
I don't know why but there are two flange to sensor distances in wide circulation for m4/3, 19.25 and 20mm. They can't both be correct.

Harold

I sent Kent Faith an email about this pointing out that I'd measured the flange to be 27.75mm
This issue throws up a few questions, which I hoped they'd answer.
They didn't.

The questions I asked them are as follows.

1) Do your adpators definitely work? Ie are they actually tested with the equipment they are intended to be used on?
2) Or could this adaptor I have purchased be from a batch of adaptors that were not intended for sale (I noted that your website does not sell this adaptor, even though the above mentioned Amazon vendor does)?
3) Or, could this be a counterfeit adaptor?

Kent Faith responded very vaguely (maybe a language barrier).

"we just check the adapter you purchased,all are good!"

So - not much of an answer - they then said - send us the adaptor back.
Given that the adaptor cost me a tenner all in, I'm a bit reluctant to send it back, only to get a replacement that is exactly the same.
10 isn't a lot, but I want to know if the vendor has sold the adaptor under false pretences - ie given how well the thing seems to be made, why would the flange distance be out therefor nullifying any potential to focus to infinity.

Am I missing something? This lens should focus to infinity right?

I don't suppose anyone on here has an adaptor they'd lend me to test this lens with? In return I could send my dodgy one to test with at their end?
Maybe that's a pointless exercise - I'm not sure - this lens of mine seems to be mechanically sound - it's maybe a solid 8 out of 10 in terms of condition...

ludwig 23rd January 2017 12:32 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Ok - so here's an update...

Harold kindly offered to test out my adaptor with his lenses - and it seems at this early stage, that the adaptor checks out ok - he'll be testing again shortly, but so far it seems that 1) his lenses focus to infinity with the adaptor, and 2) his adaptor seems to have the same flange depth as mine.

So - if this is indeed the case, that my adaptor is fine - what would cause my lens not to focus to infinity - and what can I do about it?

Harold Gough 23rd January 2017 02:25 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ludwig (Post 404681)
Ok - so here's an update...

Harold kindly offered to test out my adaptor with his lenses - and it seems at this early stage, that the adaptor checks out ok - he'll be testing again shortly, but so far it seems that 1) his lenses focus to infinity with the adaptor, and 2) his adaptor seems to have the same flange depth as mine.

So - if this is indeed the case, that my adaptor is fine - what would cause my lens not to focus to infinity - and what can I do about it?

In the past half hour I have completed a number of shots. I won't bother you with any other than this. I think 30,000+ feet counts as infinity. :D

http://e-group.uk.net/forum/picture....pictureid=2518

http://e-group.uk.net/forum/picture....pictureid=2520

The bad news is that the helicoid on the lens seems to need lubrication.

(There have been a number of PMs).

Harold

ludwig 23rd January 2017 03:01 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
"The bad news is that the helicoid on the lens seems to need lubrication."

Thanks for the help Harold - it's really appreciated.
However...

You say that the helicoid needs lubrication? How on earth can you say that without having the lens in front of you? Can you explain it to me?
My brain isn't making the correlation between lubrication and lack of infinity focus, especially given that the lens "feels" as though it doesn't have a lubrication problem (it feels fine to me - similar to that of my manual Takumar lenses, though maybe a touch stiffer). And as I said before, when in use the infinity indicator is aligned, this is when the lens stops rotating - just like my Takumar lenses do...

So where does the lubrication come into this?

Harold Gough 23rd January 2017 04:17 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ludwig (Post 404693)
"The bad news is that the helicoid on the lens seems to need lubrication."

Thanks for the help Harold - it's really appreciated.
However...

You say that the helicoid needs lubrication? How on earth can you say that without having the lens in front of you? Can you explain it to me?
My brain isn't making the correlation between lubrication and lack of infinity focus, especially given that the lens "feels" as though it doesn't have a lubrication problem (it feels fine to me - similar to that of my manual Takumar lenses, though maybe a touch stiffer). And as I said before, when in use the infinity indicator is aligned, this is when the lens stops rotating - just like my Takumar lenses do...

So where does the lubrication come into this?

I suppose it's hoping for the cheap option. When mine failed it would not wind back to focus further out than moderate close-ups. I'm wondering if a previous owner has forced it, making the alignment slip. In any case, it is a job for a pro and is likely to cost you upwards of 40, although they should take a look for free and give you an estimate.

You might find some expertise here but it it aimed at doing your own repairs.

http://forum.manualfocus.org/index.php

Good luck with it.

Harold

Harold Gough 23rd January 2017 04:22 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Harold Gough (Post 404697)
I suppose it's hoping for the cheap option. When mine failed it would not wind back to focus further out than moderate close-ups. I'm wondering if a previous owner has forced it, making the alignment slip. In any case, it is a job for a pro and is likely to cost you upwards of 40, although they should take a look for free and give you an estimate.

You might find some expertise here but it it aimed at doing your own repairs.

Good luck with it.

Harold

There is a book but a service is cheaper:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Leica-Camer...+9780936262871

Harold

ludwig 24th January 2017 08:17 AM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
That's quite an expensive book. I've tried to find it in eBook form somewhere and so far no joy. Also have posted elsewhere regarding my lens issue, and have had little response - though that Manual Lens forum you suggested Harold was closed for new registrations. I'm still hunting about though.

Harold Gough 24th January 2017 08:35 AM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ludwig (Post 404770)
though that Manual Lens forum you suggested Harold was closed for new registrations.

You can join, as I understand it, by contacting admin. I joined before self-registration was blocked. You can read the posts but, possibly not search, without joining.

An alternative:

http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/

Harold

ludwig 24th January 2017 09:58 AM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
I'll give that a look too Harold - seriously big thanks for all your help.
It's appreciated...

Harold Gough 24th January 2017 10:54 AM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ludwig (Post 404779)
I'll give that a look too Harold - seriously big thanks for all your help.
It's appreciated...

I have been given a lot of help from various forums and it is good to be able to give something back.

Harold

ludwig 24th January 2017 03:40 PM

Re: Leica Elmar-r 100mm
 
So - I managed to join that Manual Focus Lens forum - fingers crossed someone comes back with some good ideas.


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