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-   -   ANOTHER American massacre... (http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46247)

KeithL 3rd October 2017 02:36 PM

ANOTHER American massacre...
 
I wonder when the US government will acquire some sense, and do something about gun ownership there? Surely the latest massacre ought to make them see sense; but seemingly not, if Trump's "warmest condolences" are anything to go by. Given that much of his elector base is the NRA, he sure ain't likely to condemn guns anytime soon.

Even in a 'normal' time, it's bad there now; I remember going to Detroit for three weeks one October in the early 90s, and there were 11 murders in Metropolitan Detroit in that three weeks. Would we put up with it? No way! One of those murders was on TV. A lady judge, who was divorcing her husband, was in court session, on TV, when he walked into the courtroom, shot her dead, then gave himself up to an usher. In front of the cameras. Two policemen, one a lieutenant, shot dead in Hamtramck district by a deranged retiree. A body in a dumpster, sporting a range of bullet holes. And so on, and so on...

And what do they do? Buy even MORE guns!

pdk42 3rd October 2017 04:03 PM

Re: ANOTHER American massacre...
 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...s-gun-violence

Jim Ford 3rd October 2017 04:57 PM

Re: ANOTHER American massacre...
 
As usual 'Newsthump' put their finger on it:

http://newsthump.com/2017/10/02/good...mass-shooting/

I guess all that will come out of it is that outdoor party goers will be advised to go fully 'tooled up', eg a Toyota pick up truck with a Browning 0.5 HMG mounted on the back. An RPG wouldn't be advised, as it has a slow rate of fire and a Thomson while looking stylish, hasn't the range!

Jim

Jim

KeithL 3rd October 2017 06:32 PM

Re: ANOTHER American massacre...
 
I find myself unable to understand the mentality. If everyone is armed with handguns, some people will buy SMGs; then everyone will want SMGs. When they get them, next will be some guys wanting something bigger, and so on and so on.

There are more than enough illegal guns in the UK since legal handguns are not allowed.

Almost at the end of a period in Milford, Michigan one of the engineers learned that I used to be a pistol shooter. He asked when I was going home, to which I replied, "At the end of the week". "That's a shame," he said, "I would have invited you over. I've a 40 acre yard with a range. I've a Kalashnikov, an M-16, and...." And I thought to myself, "I'll be glad when I'm on that plane!" Why do they need not only such weapons, but so many? I'm not afraid of guns, but I am afraid of their attitude to them. US police are very trigger-happy now, too. It feels like, you look at police the wrong way, and they'll shoot you and ask questions later.

If America is the great example of democracy, justice, and opportunity to the world, is this really a model that the rest of the world wants?

Harold Gough 3rd October 2017 07:50 PM

Re: ANOTHER American massacre...
 
"Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword". Their choice. I am unmoved by it. The USA is one place I would never visit.

Harold

Graham_of_Rainham 3rd October 2017 08:15 PM

Re: ANOTHER American massacre...
 
These attacks on innocents and soft targets are horrific and intended to cause the fear and reaction that they so easily achieve. This one it seems is difficult to determine the basic reasons behind the actions.

As many have commented, it is so easy to obtain a gun, and very easy to use it. Equally it is almost as easy to get explosives and chemicals, but that takes a bit more skill to use. Of late vehicles have become the weapon, which are again easy to get and use.

Behind all the arguments and debates, there lies the only common factor, in that it is people who do this, and they will continue to do so, by whatever means is available to them.

Because it's a mass killing and injuring, this escalates the impact of the problem, and hides the overall scale of death by Guns. Currently at just under 8700 Murders by Guns in the USA this year.

The reference of this statistic also provides some shocking numbers

http://www.romans322.com/daily-death...statistics.php

Internaut 3rd October 2017 09:52 PM

Re: ANOTHER American massacre...
 
We had a worry at work, yesterday. One of our colleagues plays competitive poker and is currently in Las Vegas. Fortunately, he’s been in contact to let everyone know he is safe (and just a couple of blocks away from the murder scene). Not only is this the worst mass shooting, but it is also the least explicable. The shooter was a fairly successful man with, apparently, everything going for him and everything to live for. I fear we may never get to understand this one.

Wreckdiver 4th October 2017 09:42 AM

Re: ANOTHER American massacre...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KeithL (Post 428785)
I wonder when the US government will acquire some sense .....

With Trump at the helm? Never!

The man is mad.

Steve

Wreckdiver 4th October 2017 09:45 AM

Re: ANOTHER American massacre...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KeithL (Post 428801)
.... If everyone is armed with handguns, some people will buy SMGs; then everyone will want SMGs. When they get them, next will be some guys wanting something bigger, and so on and so on.....

The US's personal arms race.

Steve

drmarkf 4th October 2017 09:46 AM

Re: ANOTHER American massacre...
 
The NRA attitude permeates a huge proportion of American society, in my view to the level of a collective delusion: the level of motivated reasoning applied certainly qualifies as a delusion.

A few facts I find interesting:

The Centres for Disease Control & Prevention (the US's excellent federal Public Health organisation) were specifically directed some years ago to stop all their research on gun-related deaths, and they had all their funding removed for that purpose.

If there is a gun in a household in the US, a child in the household is 8 times more likely to be killed or injured by accidental discharge of the weapon than it is ever to be fired in self-defence. (Motivated rationalising of that is of course "I take great care of my guns, so that risk applies to inexperienced/poor/careless/black/hispanic/inner-city people, and not me").

I had a conversation with a successful Chicago commercial lawyer I met on holiday a few years ago who regularly brought up the topic of the 2nd Amendment and told me most of the firearms deaths in the US occurred among inner city blacks (and by implication they therefore weren't worth worrying about). The conversation ceased at that point, I might add.

Roughly 10,000 people die per year in the US from guns fired by other people, but a statistic that's rarely mentioned is that a further 20,000 die per year from guns fired by themselves. In other words, having lethal means readily available makes suicide vastly more successful. (Again, motivated reasoning argues that such things only happen to other people, but, since around 30% of everyone suffers clinical mental illness once or more during their lives, that is a highly risky delusion).

I see Hilary Clinton is making a lot more noise about the NRA these days. If she was to continue in that line she might yet make a worthwhile contribution to humankind, but I'm not holding my breath. Research also shows that people who hold fixed and self-serving beliefs in reality have them firmed-up by contrary scientific evidence rather than having them weakened.

Harold Gough 4th October 2017 10:19 AM

Re: ANOTHER American massacre...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wreckdiver (Post 428840)
With Trump at the helm? Never!

The man is mad.

Steve

He was heavily funded, in his election campaign (corrupt electoral system), by the gun lobby.

Harold

DerekW 4th October 2017 10:31 AM

Re: ANOTHER American massacre...
 
The Vegas gun man had the means and ability to deliver the ultimate to F U too the rest of society, he had had all the fun he wanted and thought that this would be the ultimate exit.

Ross the fiddler 4th October 2017 10:59 AM

Re: ANOTHER American massacre...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KeithL (Post 428785)
I wonder when the US government will acquire some sense, ......................

Are you kidding? Sense, what's that? *sarc With a president voted in that they have, the people don't seem to have any, so with the money making heavies that have stooges in congress there isn't much hope. *shrug

KeithL 4th October 2017 01:07 PM

Re: ANOTHER American massacre...
 
Perhaps an even more disturbing statistic is that per capita, Canada has more guns than the USA. Yet they don't have the same problem of mass killings. One reason is that they have to be locked in cabinets in gun clubs (as we used to do for some firearms). They have fun shooting at paper targets, rather than people.

The Americans seem to have a fixation on some sort of - for want of a better description - apocalyptic war, where they will need bunkers and to be armed to the teeth. Does this come from computer warlike games? I don't think so, because I think this problem precedes computer wargaming. There seems to be a collective mindset hooked on shoot 'em up before they get you, even from the US police.

I stayed in a hotel in Detroit once, where there was a wildlife reserve warden staying. Guess what? Tooled up like the SAS! I had to go to a hospital for treatment in Detroit once; again, guards patrolling the corridors, also tooled up like they were at war. In the latter case, I said to my American host, "Why on earth do they need guns to patrol a hospital?" And his answer was, "Yeah, well, some of them do get a kinda John Wayne mentality." Fine - so why not DO SOMETHING about it?

Again, near Detroit, in Milford, MI, I was talking to one of the engineers. He said to me, "Ya don't wanna go down South! They're real gun-mad down there. Even take their pieces out with them to restaurants and dances."

It isn't as if many of the population don't know there's a problem; it seems to be the total lack of ability or will to do something about it. If both Dems and Republicans acted together, they could effectively shut down the NRA, and clamp down on gun ownership. But politics being what it is, they won't.

Wreckdiver 4th October 2017 02:10 PM

Re: ANOTHER American massacre...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Harold Gough (Post 428845)
He was heavily funded, in his election campaign (corrupt electoral system), by the gun lobby.

Harold

That doesn't surprise me in the least.

Steve


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