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OlyFlyer 22nd January 2008 10:50 PM

e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
I am sorry if I am the kill joy again, but one of the members has just pointed me to the terms and conditions of the forum.

Quote:

When posting images to the forum, your image may be downloaded and edited and/or enhanced by another forum user for re-posting in the interests of topical forum debate. This evolution of forum practice has worked well, so if you prefer that your images not be changed and reposted, you must clearly state this in your original posting.
That happaned because I complained about downloading, editing and re-posting one of my images. To me, it is wrong if that is allowed by default, and I, the original photographer and the copyright owner must state specifically if I don't want that. I don't want to use the word 'artist' but I do anyway. Now, do you all consider it is OK to do that with your images without being asked for in advance? Aren't you the artist, the one who decides if you want your image altered in any way? Or is that so that like me, and this member, the terms were not known before, because, honestly, not everybody reads everything in advance. I am sure namely, that the terms were not known to this member, until after several message postings, and possibly some help from somebody else in this matter, who pointed him to the terms.

IMO, if an image is posted, it is everybodies freedom to critisize that image in any way verbally, but to edit an image unless it is asked for is wrong, way out of line, regardless how well meant that is, and I should not have to be one who needs to state that every time I post an image. Only I, the 'artist' have the right to decide what is and what is not an enhancement of my image. I am however always ready to listen to any critical words about my images. I thougth that was very clear here, since this is a photo forum. Apparently, I was mistaken. :mad:

OK, enough ranting for today. I will carefully reconsider posting images next time (if there will be a next time), and I am very sad that this behavoir is considered OK on this forum.

Barr1e 23rd January 2008 08:22 AM

Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OlyFlyer (Post 5410)
I am sorry if I am the kill joy again, but one of the members has just pointed me to the terms and conditions of the forum.



That happaned because I complained about downloading, editing and re-posting one of my images. To me, it is wrong if that is allowed by default, and I, the original photographer and the copyright owner must state specifically if I don't want that. I don't want to use the word 'artist' but I do anyway. Now, do you all consider it is OK to do that with your images without being asked for in advance? Aren't you the artist, the one who decides if you want your image altered in any way? Or is that so that like me, and this member, the terms were not known before, because, honestly, not everybody reads everything in advance. I am sure namely, that the terms were not known to this member, until after several message postings, and possibly some help from somebody else in this matter, who pointed him to the terms.

IMO, if an image is posted, it is everybodies freedom to critisize that image in any way verbally, but to edit an image unless it is asked for is wrong, way out of line, regardless how well meant that is, and I should not have to be one who needs to state that every time I post an image. Only I, the 'artist' have the right to decide what is and what is not an enhancement of my image. I am however always ready to listen to any critical words about my images. I thougth that was very clear here, since this is a photo forum. Apparently, I was mistaken. :mad:

OK, enough ranting for today. I will carefully reconsider posting images next time (if there will be a next time), and I am very sad that this behavoir is considered OK on this forum.

If my living was made as a photograher and I posted on any site I would obviously look at the terms and conditions and if they didn't suit wouldn't post. If one embedded a copyright symbol onto the pic how would it affect one's rights?

For me personally, I would be flattered to think my picture was worthy of being used and all I would ask that my name be that of the taker.

I do understand though OlyFlyer the point you are making.

Regards. Barr1e

Ian 23rd January 2008 08:44 AM

Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
I understand the concern here, but the terms and conditions are quite clear and I believe that the benefits are tangible. BUT, it's always best if you ask permission before altering someone else's picture. I will update the T&C to require permission to be sought from the photographer - at least to clarify if that photographer is happy for his or her photographs to be altered as a matter of course here on the the forum.

Ian

Scapula Memory 23rd January 2008 10:18 AM

Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OlyFlyer (Post 5410)
I am sorry if I am the kill joy again, but one of the members has just pointed me to the terms and conditions of the forum.



That happaned because I complained about downloading, editing and re-posting one of my images. To me, it is wrong if that is allowed by default, and I, the original photographer and the copyright owner must state specifically if I don't want that. I don't want to use the word 'artist' but I do anyway. Now, do you all consider it is OK to do that with your images without being asked for in advance? Aren't you the artist, the one who decides if you want your image altered in any way? Or is that so that like me, and this member, the terms were not known before, because, honestly, not everybody reads everything in advance. I am sure namely, that the terms were not known to this member, until after several message postings, and possibly some help from somebody else in this matter, who pointed him to the terms.

IMO, if an image is posted, it is everybodies freedom to critisize that image in any way verbally, but to edit an image unless it is asked for is wrong, way out of line, regardless how well meant that is, and I should not have to be one who needs to state that every time I post an image. Only I, the 'artist' have the right to decide what is and what is not an enhancement of my image. I am however always ready to listen to any critical words about my images. I thougth that was very clear here, since this is a photo forum. Apparently, I was mistaken. :mad:

OK, enough ranting for today. I will carefully reconsider posting images next time (if there will be a next time), and I am very sad that this behavoir is considered OK on this forum.

What might be helpful here is if Ian changes the default setting for image edit to " no " meaning that the user would have to give permission on request to allow another user to edit the image. This would certainly remove the surprise of having ones images edited without you realising that can be done. I think that would remove the confusion you have experienced.

On another note however I think the T&Cs here are very clear and easy to understand. It can be solidly argued that it is your responsibility to read them as you would have ticked a box in the set up process that says you agree to the terms here. You must have ticked that box to agree to these terms. As a user of any forum or web site I always look at the terms and conditions thoroughly and most definately the privacy policy and have sometimes disagreed with them for whatever reason and chosen not to continue. You say yourself that no one reads things right through but there are many others that do.

Having said that I cannot imagine users on here altering images in any other way other than for the purpose of helping others. I think this is a very useful facility to have and I myself have benefitted from this.

John

PS: Looks like Ian has seen this already.

E-P1 fan 23rd January 2008 10:26 AM

Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scapula Memory (Post 5432)
Having said that I cannot imagine users on here altering images in any other way other than for the purpose of helping others. I think this is a very useful facility to have and I myself have benefitted from this. John

I agree I'd hate this to be adversley affected. If anyone is really precious about any specific images - don't post them.
This is an amateur forum isn't it? :confused:

PeterD 23rd January 2008 10:34 AM

Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scapula Memory (Post 5432)
What might be helpful here is if Ian changes the default setting for image edit to " no " meaning that the user would have to give permission on request to allow another user to edit the image. This would certainly remove the surprise of having ones images edited without you realising that can be done. I think that would remove the confusion you have experienced.

On another note however I think the T&Cs here are very clear and easy to understand. It can be solidly argued that it is your responsibility to read them as you would have ticked a box in the set up process that says you agree to the terms here. You must have ticked that box to agree to these terms. As a user of any forum or web site I always look at the terms and conditions thoroughly and most definately the privacy policy and have sometimes disagreed with them for whatever reason and chosen not to continue. You say yourself that no one reads things right through but there are many others that do.

Having said that I cannot imagine users on here altering images in any other way other than for the purpose of helping others. I think this is a very useful facility to have and I myself have benefitted from this.

John

Hi John/OlyFlyer

I think that images posted here should remain the property of the originator whilst also agreeing with you John that changes to images up to now have been done with care and with the sole intention of helping the originator. We should retain this flexibility.

By default, no changes should be allowed but permission to alter/improve images should be requested by PM to the originator. Thats a matter of courtesy. A means to allow editing should then be available, to the originator, to allow the nominated registered user to make changes. When re posted, the modified image should bear the names of the originator and the editor. I woud hope that by this means we can retain the flexibility but protect any potential malicious or unauthorised editing in the future. Each one of us has a unique handle and therefore this should allow such a change to be implemented.

What do you think?

Kind regards

PeterD

OlyFlyer 23rd January 2008 12:24 PM

Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
First, I must say, somehow I agree with you all.

It may not a big deal, but I think it is bad habit to regard everything on the internet as freeware. Editing an image may be necessary to show something which is difficult to explain, which was not the case in the incident. The words used explained well the points that were critisised, even if I may not agree, but I well understood. So, as I see it, there was absolutely no need.

Regardless of which, I think it should be the opposite way, editing is by default prohibited unless it is asked for or permission is granted by the photographer.

I disagree with the comment that this is an amateur forum, because it has nothing to do with if you are an amateur or a pro. As a matter of fact, I have written a few articles in a Swedish aviation magazine a few years back (the magazine does not exist any more) and every time I sent in some material I had to sign an agreement that the illustrations are mine, or I have permission to use them. Until I produced that, the magazine would not print, regardless of how obvious it was that I would be the copyright owner or that I would have the permission. So, even if my images were printed, I am still an amateur because I feed my family using money I earn mainly through other type of work, not photography or writing. Now I am 'working' on another project, and when that is finished, I will still be an amateur, in fact, I have taken a decision about 30 years ago never to become a pro photographer, but that is a different story.

I also agree that the T&C is clear and easyly understood, but understandig it was not the problem. I admit, I didn't read it, because for such a basic thing, I assumed it would be the other way round, not the way it says in the T&C. When the T&C was pointed out to me, I apologized to the member, since he was following the rules (probably not knowing he was, but anyhow...), and I was stupid not reading the T&C before posting my images. To sum up the whole story, it was totally my fault, I neglected reading the T&C.

What I would wonder, how many can honestly state they read every word of it, and all the other conditions and rules? I am however very glad if the T&C is getting an update in this regard. It is easier to do that while the forum is still small.

Cheers.

theMusicMan 23rd January 2008 01:47 PM

Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
Ian - can I make a suggestion here please. How about adding a custom field (checkbox yes/no) to the profile page (postbit_legacy template) that is default to no that a user sets in their profile settings - this field is the indication of if a user wants their images to be amended or not?

OK, it is a 'for all' images, but if the default is no, then a user can set to yes if they don't mind generally, but state in the post that this one shouldn't. Or, they leave as set to 'no' and state in the post that they don't mind for this particular image.

Win-Win then... :)

OlyFlyer 23rd January 2008 02:25 PM

Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by theMusicMan (Post 5448)
Ian - can I make a suggestion here please. How about adding a custom field (checkbox yes/no) to the profile page (postbit_legacy template) that is default to no that a user sets in their profile settings - this field is the indication of if a user wants their images to be amended or not?

OK, it is a 'for all' images, but if the default is no, then a user can set to yes if they don't mind generally, but state in the post that this one shouldn't. Or, they leave as set to 'no' and state in the post that they don't mind for this particular image.

Win-Win then... :)

Good idea, but the T&C must even in that case be changed to prevent contradiction.

Graham_of_Rainham 23rd January 2008 02:36 PM

Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
I am the one that had to point out the Ts&Cs, which I had read when I first joined the group. They are very clear and the particular rule provides a simply and very effective way of conveying thoughts. (Picture vs 1000 words etc...)

I strongly believe they should NOT be changed, they are the rules and anyone not likeing them should not use the forums. However if as suggested the system can be enhanced to provide a Tick Box ("do not edit this picture", which by default should be set in line with the existing rules), then everyone should be satisfied.

If anyone took the time and trouble to edit one of my images and give constructive comments, I'd be only to gratefull to them, in the same way as I respect the opinions of judges who I present my work to. I may not always agree but that is the condition which we accept when entering competitions and Forums such as this...

Hopefully this "debate" will serve to enlighten members to the "Rules" and we can continue to use the forum as it was intended to be used, without further distraction or upsetting peoples sensibilities...

Regards to all

Graham

E-P1 fan 23rd January 2008 02:47 PM

Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham_of_Rainham (Post 5454)
I am the one that had to point out the Ts&Cs, which I had read when I first joined the group. They are very clear and the particular rule provides a simply and very effective way of conveying thoughts. (Picture vs 1000 words etc...)

I strongly believe they should NOT be changed, they are the rules and anyone not likeing them should not use the forums. However if as suggested the system can be enhanced to provide a Tick Box ("do not edit this picture", which by default should be set in line with the existing rules), then everyone should be satisfied.

If anyone took the time and trouble to edit one of my images and give constructive comments, I'd be only to gratefull to them, in the same way as I respect the opinions of judges who I present my work to. I may not always agree but that is the condition which we accept when entering competitions and Forums such as this...

Hopefully this "debate" will serve to enlighten members to the "Rules" and we can continue to use the forum as it was intended to be used, without further distraction or upsetting peoples sensibilities...

Regards to all

Graham

Well said Graham. I reckon it's an over-reaction too

OlyFlyer 23rd January 2008 07:17 PM

Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham_of_Rainham (Post 5454)
I am the one that had to point out the Ts&Cs, which I had read when I first joined the group. They are very clear and the particular rule provides a simply and very effective way of conveying thoughts. (Picture vs 1000 words etc...)

I strongly believe they should NOT be changed, they are the rules and anyone not likeing them should not use the forums. However if as suggested the system can be enhanced to provide a Tick Box ("do not edit this picture", which by default should be set in line with the existing rules), then everyone should be satisfied.

If anyone took the time and trouble to edit one of my images and give constructive comments, I'd be only to gratefull to them, in the same way as I respect the opinions of judges who I present my work to. I may not always agree but that is the condition which we accept when entering competitions and Forums such as this...

Hopefully this "debate" will serve to enlighten members to the "Rules" and we can continue to use the forum as it was intended to be used, without further distraction or upsetting peoples sensibilities...

Regards to all

Graham

Well, what can I say, I'd have expected you to strongly disagree with me, if nothing else, just as a matter of principle...

Good that we have at least one member here who is free of faults and honest about having read the T&C. I am not that perfect, as I already admitted. Had you pointed me to the T&C in your first PM to me as an answer to my own PM to you, than maybe it would not have gone so far and would have believed you actually knew it was OK according to forum's T&C. I wonder why I doubt you knew that from the start, regardless of what you say now afterwords...

Anyway, the problem is that it can NEVER be wrong to ask for permission, but it CAN be wrong to not to and assume everybody os happy with that. Regardless if I was the stupid part (according to you) or not.

In my answer to you, I did thank you for your comments, so you are a bit unfair here, publicly claiming I was not thankful. You can hoewever NEVER claim that your comments weight more than my own, or somebody elses judgment on how MY image should look like, or should be crippled, even if you regard it as constructive criticism. To demand greatfulness is definitely going too far. I appreciate the time people are taking here, and every other forum where I am active, but as far as I see it, I have absolutely nothing to be greatful for. I regard my own contributions to more than well balance other peoples, maybe with you as an exception.

Personally, I think it's a shame that you posted your message on this thread because it makes it look like a fight between you and me. It is not about that at all. If I wanted to make it personal, I wouldn't have removed my answer to you from the actual post and image I was refering to, so other people could pass judgement on better base and could discuss differently.

My guess is that if this attitude is allowed here, not many people will post images, because, generally, I am 100% sure that most people don't appreciate that kind of 'helpful advice', even if they don't say it out loud, like I do it here. It shows a lack of respect for other peoples work and property, regardless of how worthless you regard that property is, because however you see it, the so called work you spent on my image was nothing comparable to the work and time I spend on them. A few quick moves is not what I call constructive criticism, what is constractive criticism is the comments I read on my other thread with the Tower bridge image, that is a good example of that. The problem is, I wasted too much time on your criticism to thank those people and answer them. Please, pay a visit there and read the comments, so you'll learn about how to give feed back and how to critisize using words.

The "Picture vs 1000 words etc..." is just bull. Some things are better expressed using words and considering your native language is English, that should be easier for you than for me. I agree, it has become an overreaction, thanks to your contribution, and the blame it on others attitude. For me it was just a question of what people consider here is OK. So far, you are the only one I see who clearly say you are agains ANY change in the way things are in the T&C. What a surprise...

Yes, some don't care, but I guess the majority would like it the other way round, of course, this is just my guess. Why is it so difficult to ask first? That's the way I was brought up. Ask before take anything.

Ellie 24th January 2008 01:01 AM

Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
Quote:

I understand the concern here, but the terms and conditions are quite clear and I believe that the benefits are tangible. BUT, it's always best if you ask permission before altering someone else's picture. I will update the T&C to require permission to be sought from the photographer - at least to clarify if that photographer is happy for his or her photographs to be altered as a matter of course here on the the forum.
I thought I'd read the T&C carefully when I joined, but I must admit I didn't notice this. :o

I'd sort of thought there might be software that wouldn't let pictures be downloaded, because there's so much stuff about people taking pictures and using them somewhere else, being able to right click on any picture site is open to abuse. Mind you, I don't know if I'd be annoyed or pleased if it happened to something of mine, I think it would depend how and where it was used.

I've posted pictures on other sites, nobody has ever downloaded and edited them without asking first, in fact they've always asked if I'd send them a copy by email. I hadn't imagined anybody would do it without asking beforehand. So I suppose it puts me in the "No, not unless you ask first" camp.

I know I haven't been here very long, so perhaps I shouldn't have said anything.

PeterD 24th January 2008 01:14 AM

Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellie (Post 5517)
I thought I'd read the T&C carefully when I joined, but I must admit I didn't notice this. :o

I'd sort of thought there might be software that wouldn't let pictures be downloaded, because there's so much stuff about people taking pictures and using them somewhere else, being able to right click on any picture site is open to abuse. Mind you, I don't know if I'd be annoyed or pleased if it happened to something of mine, I think it would depend how and where it was used.

I've posted pictures on other sites, nobody has ever downloaded and edited them without asking first, in fact they've always asked if I'd send them a copy by email. I hadn't imagined anybody would do it without asking beforehand. So I suppose it puts me in the "No, not unless you ask first" camp.

I know I haven't been here very long, so perhaps I shouldn't have said anything.

Ellie,

You have every right to give your opinion and thank you for it. As you will see in my earlier post I agree with you too.

Kind regards

PeterD

Nick Temple-Fry 24th January 2008 01:22 AM

Re: e-group UK forum terms and conditions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellie (Post 5517)
I thought I'd read the T&C carefully when I joined, but I must admit I didn't notice this. :o

I'd sort of thought there might be software that wouldn't let pictures be downloaded, because there's so much stuff about people taking pictures and using them somewhere else, being able to right click on any picture site is open to abuse. Mind you, I don't know if I'd be annoyed or pleased if it happened to something of mine, I think it would depend how and where it was used.

I've posted pictures on other sites, nobody has ever downloaded and edited them without asking first, in fact they've always asked if I'd send them a copy by email. I hadn't imagined anybody would do it without asking beforehand. So I suppose it puts me in the "No, not unless you ask first" camp.

I know I haven't been here very long, so perhaps I shouldn't have said anything.

If you post on the internet then there is no guarantee that the image will not be 'stolen'; right-click protection is little more than a convention amongst software writers, certainly it is easy to circumvent.

But all they are stealing is a web-sized copy of your original photograph, something you've already made public to the whole world by putting on the internet. They might be able to make a passable A4 print, but not a proper photograph.

Please don't let this put you off from posting to the web, there is very little sadder than a photograph scared to be shared.


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