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-   -   Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3 (http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48290)

MJ224 9th July 2018 04:32 PM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phill D (Post 450667)
Yep I agree with that too Mark, that Panny lens is on my potential shopping list unless Oly do bring one out. Interesting comment actually I only thought it was the pro capture L setting that wasn't compatible are there more issues?

Won't do the focus Stacking, although it does Bracketing. But that's a function of the body rather than the lens. With bracketing you can bracket very many shots, but need computer power to do the stacking. I am lazy, and like to stack at the time of the photo...

Mark j

MikeOxon 9th July 2018 04:46 PM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ224 (Post 450700)
Won't do the focus Stacking, although it does Bracketing. But that's a function of the body rather than the lens. With bracketing you can bracket very many shots, but need computer power to do the stacking. I am lazy, and like to stack at the time of the photo...

Quite a few Oly lenses won't do focus stacking either. I tend to find 8 steps rather too few, so am moving towards more steps followed by computer stacking. Perhaps Olympus could add more stacking steps with a firmware update?

Ricoh 9th July 2018 07:46 PM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
I think it was 'Uncle' Ken Rockwell who said shoot 'real' RAW. Sounds good to me!

pdk42 9th July 2018 11:34 PM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
For what it's worth, I think Hogan's right. There's no good technological reason why m43 should be languishing at 16 or 20 Mp. The Sony 1" BSI sensors (RX100 et al) are at 20Mp but have an area approx 55% of m43. The same tech on a m43-sized sensor would give us approx 36Mp. That would be nice :) . And before someone says that more Mp means more noise, I'll just add a few points:

- The RX100 is scarcely any worse than m43. The same pixel density, with the same per-pixel noise, but scaled up to a 36Mp m43 sensor would mean equivalent enlargements would show notably less noise than today's m43 sensors.

- The 42Mp A7Rii delivers very similar image-level noise on real-world enlargements as the 12Mp A7Sii.

Truth be known, progress in m43 sensors since the EM5 of 2012 has been very slow. I personally would really like a significant improvement in m43 sensor performance. Can I make decent images with what I have today? - yes, I think so. Does the overall m43 system today offer things that other systems don't - yes, but you have to take a detailed look to realise it. Does m43 look competitive against other systems - I think increasingly less so; which is the point Hogan is making.

Phill D 10th July 2018 07:27 AM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pdk42 (Post 450729)
- The RX100 is scarcely any worse than m43. The same pixel density, with the same per-pixel noise, but scaled up to a 36Mp m43 sensor would mean equivalent enlargements would show notably less noise than today's m43 sensors.

Interesting Paul. If what you say would translate into say a 30Mp sensor with less noise than todays sensor then that sounds like the way to go. If it mean's even slightly more noise though then it would be a disaster in sales/marketing terms. I suspect the slower development in m4/3s sensors probably has a lot to do with the fact that Sony doesn't use that size.

MJ224 10th July 2018 08:55 AM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
Bigger and bigger files...…………..Unsure of the optimum, but I was always very pleased with my Pentax Ist 6Mp...…..But of course I could not do half as much cropping with that size.....My present 20Mp seems PDG....How far do we go. I guess progress in 10 years time might have an almost infinite sensor, things we dare not dream about...………….:confused::confused:

Ricoh 10th July 2018 11:16 AM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ224 (Post 450746)
Bigger and bigger files...…………..Unsure of the optimum, but I was always very pleased with my Pentax Ist 6Mp...…..But of course I could not do half as much cropping with that size.....My present 20Mp seems PDG....How far do we go. I guess progress in 10 years time might have an almost infinite sensor, things we dare not dream about...………….:confused::confused:

You should crop with your feet, to mis-quote Ernst Haas, but the same sentiment non the less.

MJ224 10th July 2018 11:34 AM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricoh (Post 450757)
You should crop with your feet, to mis-quote Ernst Haas, but the same sentiment non the less.

Yes understand your drift, but my blackbird does not, and the moon definitely has cloth ears...………..*chr

angelpaaul 10th July 2018 11:57 AM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
Here we go - 'My camera has more pixels than yours'. Didn't we have this years ago when we used film? 'My Canon is better than your Nikon', '35mm!!, medium format is far superior', etc..... I've used many different systems and makes over the years, bought with a specific job in mind. Medium format for weddings, 35mm for when I was hill walking, compacts for a 'carry everywhere' camera and so on. When the bride and groom were looking at their wedding photos, they never asked what camera or film did I use, the results said it all. I use olympus m43 and it suits me just fine. In fact, if people bought a camera they needed and not wanted, there'd be a lot more compacts around.

pdk42 10th July 2018 05:23 PM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by angelpaaul (Post 450765)
Here we go - 'My camera has more pixels than yours'. Didn't we have this years ago when we used film? 'My Canon is better than your Nikon', '35mm!!, medium format is far superior', etc..... I've used many different systems and makes over the years, bought with a specific job in mind. Medium format for weddings, 35mm for when I was hill walking, compacts for a 'carry everywhere' camera and so on. When the bride and groom were looking at their wedding photos, they never asked what camera or film did I use, the results said it all. I use olympus m43 and it suits me just fine. In fact, if people bought a camera they needed and not wanted, there'd be a lot more compacts around.

I sort of agree Paul - but cameras are not sold because they're "adequate"; they're sold because they are competitive with alternative offerings. It's a ratchet and it's Darwinian. That's the way the Western World works!

Pistnbroke 10th July 2018 06:32 PM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
I think PDK 42 makes realistic comments but I do notice that many move to 4/3 as they get older and want smaller gear . I go that way myself using the larger Nikons when the punter pays but using the oly when I am relaxing.

pdk42 10th July 2018 10:35 PM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
Pistnbroke - I agree! I think the benefits of m43 tend to become apparent to experienced photographers who understand a few important points:

- They understand that ultimate image IQ is not the only parameter when comparing camera systems. If their m43 cameras deliver "very very good" IQ, then that's good enough for nearly all of what they do. It's the image that matters.

- They value the wider features of the camera system as a whole. They value compactness, a huge range of excellent lenses, class-leading image stabilisation, superb feature set, and excellent support from two active and innovative manufacturers.

- They have the experience and skills to work around what IQ limitations remain. This could be knowing how to use image stabilisation well, how to stack images, or how to expose and process raw files properly.

- They appreciate that the ergonomics and usability of a camera is a huge part of making them WANT to take images. They know that big and heavy kit tends to get left on the shelf, and that fancy cameras with great IQ lose their appeal if the usability and ownership experience isn't right.

However, relative newcomers find these arguments too subtle and not readily understood since they are hard to measure objectively and their true value needs experience to properly appreciate.

Olympus and Panasonic need to attract these photographers and unfortunately that means they need to keep up in the sensor race since that measure is what is easily marketed and what newbies will look to when they are comparing systems.

Truth be known, the four thirds system was dead by 2012. The E-M5 changed the game and size was only a part of that. The Sony 16Mp sensor lifted mage quality to the equal or better of APS-C at the time. But there has been too little evolution since then. All the subsequent 16Mp sensors add essentially nothing to the E-M5's raw handling. The 20Mp sensors add a little - but it's marginal. I personally think this IS a big challenge for Olympus and Panasonic - which is Hogan's point.

drmarkf 10th July 2018 10:49 PM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistnbroke (Post 450641)
Interesting points.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/...try-point.html

My M5 with the 15mm is doing a great job

Hogan’s lost the plot. Zero facts quoted in that article, which is entirely based on preconceived prejudice.

It’s a shame, because 8 years ago he wrote and thought well for Nikon owners.

pdk42 10th July 2018 11:11 PM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drmarkf (Post 450791)
Hogan’s lost the plot. Zero facts quoted in that article, which is entirely based on preconceived prejudice.

That's true Mark - but his prejudice is reflecting a wider prejudice. And that's not an issue that facts or reason can easily counter.

shenstone 11th July 2018 06:20 AM

Re: Thom Hogan slams Olympus M 4/3
 
Quote:

as 24mp full frame is enough for a two-page magazine spread, even at high ISO values.
Sadly he clearly does not know publishing as much as he thinks he does or the 12Mp image I took with my E-30 would not have been able to be used as a 2 page spread in a book would it!


It's good that people comment to correct misunderstandings like his here because he does not permit comments - at least if people see this thread they can see that all he has offered is an opinion - not a fact at all

Regards
Andy


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