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-   -   Milky Way (http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48142)

chris 19th June 2018 12:48 PM

Milky Way
 
Id like to have a go at shooting the Milky Way, I realise that the common understanding is that larger sensors are more suited to Astro, but hey ho, Im going to try anyway...

I have a dark sky area in mind not too far away, and think I understand the theory (500 rule etc).

My current widest lens is the 17mm 1.8 - is this wide and fast enough? What iso can I push it to, and any m43 specific tips? Or am I wasting my time?!

Any example images youve taken would be cool too.
Thanks

wornish 19th June 2018 08:49 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Go for it. You are not wasting your time.

Don't believe all you read.

Definitely use a tripod.
F/1.8 is fine
Iso 800 is ok or higher say 1600/ 3200.

Great tutorial here that blows lots of the pre conceived ideas/rules (myths), applies to M4/3 as much as FF.



Look here to see whats possible.

https://www.google.com/search?q=milk...ZWGf-QXAP52AM:

chris 19th June 2018 09:15 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Thanks Dave

Matt_Hirst 21st June 2018 06:06 AM

Re: Milky Way
 
Let us know how you get on, I'd like to photograph the milky way as well.

Matt

chris 21st June 2018 06:57 AM

Re: Milky Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_Hirst (Post 449495)
Let us know how you get on, I'd like to photograph the milky way as well.

Matt

Will do Matt. Looks like youre from the same part of the country as me, Im thinking of Surprise View/Over Owler Tor in the peaks, which is a dark sky area, using the Mother Cap or Beehive rocks in the foreground.

Matt_Hirst 21st June 2018 06:15 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Sounds superb, I look forward to seeing the images!


Matt

Phill D 21st June 2018 06:45 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
That's on my list as a place to go too. Good luck, tonight sounds like it could be clear.

chris 21st June 2018 08:16 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
There’s a lot of good locations in the area

It won’t be night photography this weekend though for me, I have plans for a sunrise over winnats and a waterfall to chase!

freewheeler 23rd June 2018 10:45 AM

Re: Milky Way
 
Sorry for hi-jacking your post Chris but I have a question on a similar topic. Recently I have shot the moon, using the 50-200 at full zoom the moon still looks the same size as viewing it with the naked eye, I don't understand why this would be surely the moon should look bigger if it's magnified

wornish 23rd June 2018 11:24 AM

Re: Milky Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by freewheeler (Post 449593)
Sorry for hi-jacking your post Chris but I have a question on a similar topic. Recently I have shot the moon, using the 50-200 at full zoom the moon still looks the same size as viewing it with the naked eye, I don't understand why this would be surely the moon should look bigger if it's magnified

It is bigger when viewed with a 200mm lens but you probably hardly notice it, your mind plays tricks and you always think it is bigger than it really is when just looking with your naked eye. The Sun and Moon are both about 0.5 degrees = 30 arc minutes in diameter.

freewheeler 23rd June 2018 02:57 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Thanks Dave, my logic is if I look at the moon through say a telescope, it would look considerably larger so the effect should be the same with a lens. I don't notice too much enlargement with the 70-300 either and thought it was some setting I have wrong in the camera.

Bengeo 26th June 2018 08:21 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
These were taken last year at a dark site in Cornwall with a very clear sky. They could do with some more processing. First is with the 12mm f2 (20 seconds) and the other 2 were taken with the Samyang fisheye (30 seconds).



https://farm1.staticflickr.com/925/4...93fe05d5_b.jpg


https://farm1.staticflickr.com/923/2...4b06ffa1_b.jpg


https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1826/...d74190c7_b.jpg

wornish 26th June 2018 08:25 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
They are very nice indeed, #2 for me. Well done.

chris 26th June 2018 08:30 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Nice images, I will wait until a less bright moon phase in a couple of weeks before giving it a try. There's an article in this months Outdoor Photography on the milky way, but to be honest its not at all enlightening.

Bengeo 26th June 2018 08:37 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Thanks, I would just give it a go and be prepared to experiment. I was very lucky with the weather and no moon or wind. Would be worth practising with your gear in the dark before you go.

chris 26th June 2018 08:54 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
The bit i'm not entirely sure on is knowing where to point the camera! Generically south, but is it obvious to the naked eye in a dark enough area? I have downloaded a night sky app to my phone to help!

Ian 26th June 2018 09:09 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chris (Post 449790)
The bit i'm not entirely sure on is knowing where to point the camera! Generically south, but is it obvious to the naked eye in a dark enough area? I have downloaded a night sky app to my phone to help!

If you can't detect it with the naked eye I would think it's probably not going to photograph well - but those more experienced than me can comment more authoritatively.

Ian

Ian 26th June 2018 09:18 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Nobody has mentioned the 500 rule. This calculates the maximum exposure time before the Earth's motion starts to turn the star points into little trails. For a 17mm lens you need to double to make 34 (full frame mm equivalent) and then divide 500 by it. Rounding up, that's a maximum of 15 seconds.

Actually, for Micro Four Thirds you can make it the 250 rule and there is no need to compensate for the crop factor, just divide the focal length (17) into 250.

For a 9mm super wide you can expose (250 divided by 9) for 28 seconds.

The longer the exposure the better of course and this is one reason why a moderate wide angle like a 17 isn't ideal for milky way shots, apart from the fact that it doesn't cover enough of the sky.

Ian

MJ224 26th June 2018 09:24 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
All good god photos, but my favourite is the last one with the red sun/moon/light pollution....*chr

wornish 26th June 2018 09:25 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
The 500 rule is a good guide elongated stars are not pretty.

BUT if you set your ISO high enough then you will be amazed at what you camera can capture in under 20 secs. Certainly more than the naked eye.

If you look the at link in my post #2 it shows you whats possible.

Not sure what phone you have but Celestron do some free software called Sky Portal which is very good. Highly recommended. It works on Android phones, apple phones and iPads.
It certainly will help you in deciding where to point.

https://www.celestron.com/pages/sky-portal-mobile-app

chris 26th June 2018 10:11 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian (Post 449792)
Nobody has mentioned the 500 rule. This calculates the maximum exposure time before the Earth's motion starts to turn the star points into little trails. For a 17mm lens you need to double to make 34 (full frame mm equivalent) and then divide 500 by it. Rounding up, that's a maximum of 15 seconds.

Actually, for Micro Four Thirds you can make it the 250 rule and there is no need to compensate for the crop factor, just divide the focal length (17) into 250.

For a 9mm super wide you can expose (250 divided by 9) for 28 seconds.

The longer the exposure the better of course and this is one reason why a moderate wide angle like a 17 isn't ideal for milky way shots, apart from the fact that it doesn't cover enough of the sky.

Ian

Thanks Ian, I was aware of the 500 rule and as you say, had calculated 15 seconds for my 17mm. Although I am on the lookout for a used 12-40 2.8 pro, so if i get one of those I can be upto 21 seconds at 12mm :)

Graptolite 26th June 2018 10:28 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
I've spent quite a bit of time trying to get good Milky Way photos with EM1.2 and never really been very satisfied, and I'm lucky enough to live somewhere with very low light pollution.This is fairly typical of what I've managed to get in a single exposure (this was taken in December - it never gets dark enough at this time of year for us to see the Milky Way. The wrinkly appearance of the sky is due to the phenomenon of air glow - it's relatively uncommon to see it as clear as this) )
EM1.2, 7-14mm Oly at 7mm, 30s f2.8 ISO 6400:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1767/...69ce7fef_b.jpgMilky Way and airglow, Mochrum Loch by DavidMB2006

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1764/...fc03bda2_b.jpgP116926 by DavidMB2006

I think you do need a bigger sensor to really get the detail, or possibly I'll need to have a good look at image stacking, which I've not yet tried.

Ian 27th June 2018 06:59 AM

Re: Milky Way
 
David, what were your settings (no exif data in your shots)?

Ian

wornish 27th June 2018 07:12 AM

Re: Milky Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Graptolite (Post 449801)


I think you do need a bigger sensor to really get the detail, or possibly I'll need to have a good look at image stacking, which I've not yet tried.

When the air glow is there it will still show on a shot made using a full frame sensor, plus you won't get any more detail. To get more detail needs longer exposures at a given ISO, thats when astrophotography starts to hurt your wallet!

I assume the airglow is constantly changing so stacking a few shots taken at say 5 minute intervals may help as long as you align them first. Many photo applications can do this for you.

chris 27th June 2018 08:08 AM

Re: Milky Way
 
Whatched a tutorial on a free Milky Way stacking program called Sequator, looks user friendly with good results.

Graptolite 27th June 2018 08:29 AM

Re: Milky Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian (Post 449811)
David, what were your settings (no exif data in your shots)?

Ian

The settings are in my post just above the first photo Ian.

Ian 27th June 2018 09:12 AM

Re: Milky Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Graptolite (Post 449821)
The settings are in my post just above the first photo Ian.

Ooops, sorry - didn't notice that :)

Ian

Ian 27th June 2018 09:17 AM

Re: Milky Way
 
Can I presume that David's shots (which I would have been quite pleased with :)) were despite less than perfectly ideal conditions, meaning there is still more potential?

I can see some star elongation and I actually wonder if the focus is very slightly out?

Ian

chris 27th June 2018 09:31 AM

Re: Milky Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian (Post 449826)
David's shots (which I would have been quite pleased with)

Ian

Id be over the moon 🌛if I come out with anything even remotely approaching those.

Graptolite 27th June 2018 01:44 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian (Post 449826)

I can see some star elongation and I actually wonder if the focus is very slightly out?

Ian

Focus could well be slightly off - it's always a problem at night. I usually manually focus to the infinity sign on the focus ring and hope that with the wide angle lens there's enough dof to give me some leeway. Star elongation due to exposure length is usually more noticeable at the corners.

wornish 27th June 2018 02:00 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chris (Post 449816)
Whatched a tutorial on a free Milky Way stacking program called Sequator, looks user friendly with good results.

Thanks for the heads up on Sequator its a new one for me.

I have just watched the video and it looks very promising. I will give it a go when the skies get a little darker.

skids 30th June 2018 01:38 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Here's one of my efforts from a trip to Lundy in Nov 2016. I'm sure it could look more impressive if my processing skills were better.

EM1 mk1, 7mm, iso 1600, f/3.5, 41 seconds (had my Polarie Star Tracker with me so not much to worry about regarding trails as long as I align things properly).

Went back in Nov 2017 but no clear nights.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/446/3...5725c02b_b.jpgLundy Milky Way 2_25112016_181505 by jonskids, on Flickr

Petrochemist 1st July 2018 09:59 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by freewheeler (Post 449603)
Thanks Dave, my logic is if I look at the moon through say a telescope, it would look considerably larger so the effect should be the same with a lens. I don't notice too much enlargement with the 70-300 either and thought it was some setting I have wrong in the camera.

The effect is the same with a lens, but a decent telescope will have a much longer focal length than your 200mm. Even my little one is over 500mm without an eyepiece, with an eyepiece it's total can be as high as 16000mm IIRC

birdboy 2nd July 2018 10:52 AM

Re: Milky Way
 
Chris the key to all astophotography is clear skies and as low light pollution as possible. Currently the night sky is polluted everywhere in the UK because the suns light is still scattering its rays over the night sky. You will only get to astro dark from about August onwards. Clear Outside is a good place to start as a forecast and understand dark skies. You need to be in the black astrononimcal darkness zone.

http://clearoutside.com/annual_darkness/53.22/-1.68

Planning is everything and the best piece of software to use is Stellarium, its free. Set up your lenses so you can see what field of view you will get and set the location, date and time of year you plan to take images. This software will tell you where to point your camera. You can set up what level of human light pollution and it will also show the effects of the sun and moon on the clarity of the milkyway.

As for settings it is impossible to say (other than wide open aperature and shutter speed that does not show star trails) without knowing what level of light pollution you get from your location. Without a tracker I have never liked the 500 rule but would reduce it to about 400 which gives very short exposures. Stacking images works better but you then need to do some trickery with software to blend in images of landscape which will show rotation. I have heard that some folk use these low cost trackers and set the tracking speed to half rate and that enables them to double shutter speed without too much blurring of the stars and landscape.

Sorry I cant give any examples in the UK but its not for want of trying. I did get one when in Peru in 2015. This was taken with EM1 MK1 12-40 lens at 17mm f2.8 Iso 1600 10secs taken raw converted to tif and processed in Startools. This was at the start of my astrophotography journey.
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/5...s_Milkyway.jpg

wornish 2nd July 2018 12:37 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
+1 for Clear Outside. I have been using for two or more years now.
The current day and 5 day detail forecasts for you location get updated daily and are very useful. The UK weather is the biggest challenge.

birdboy 2nd July 2018 02:34 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Stacking has been mentioned a few times so I thought I would revisit my images I took from Peru these were the 17mm fl 10 sec f 2.8 ISO 1600 images.
The ealier one was a single frame without a crop.
I took a total of 30 frames at the time I have stacked these in Deep Sky Stacker and selected the best 50% and then processed the fits file in Star Tools. There is some cropping because of the rotation of the frames. I don't know how accurate the colour is but I used the default settings in Star Tools with a bias of green to yellow.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/5...ay_stacked.jpg

chris 2nd July 2018 07:13 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Thanks for all the input folks, much appreciated

blu-by-u 5th July 2018 01:43 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by birdboy (Post 450255)
Stacking has been mentioned a few times so I thought I would revisit my images I took from Peru these were the 17mm fl 10 sec f 2.8 ISO 1600 images.
The ealier one was a single frame without a crop.
I took a total of 30 frames at the time I have stacked these in Deep Sky Stacker and selected the best 50% and then processed the fits file in Star Tools. There is some cropping because of the rotation of the frames. I don't know how accurate the colour is but I used the default settings in Star Tools with a bias of green to yellow.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/5...ay_stacked.jpg

I was just thinking of the stacking techniques to reduce the noise.

Should the ISO be reduced and time increased to compensate or should I increase the ISO and shorten the time?

Sent from my ASUS_Z00UD using Tapatalk

birdboy 5th July 2018 02:18 PM

Re: Milky Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by blu-by-u (Post 450451)
I was just thinking of the stacking techniques to reduce the noise.

Should the ISO be reduced and time increased to compensate or should I increase the ISO and shorten the time?

Sent from my ASUS_Z00UD using Tapatalk

For a non tracking mount such as tripod your shutter time is governed by how fussy you want to be over star trailing 500, 400 rule (shutter time =400/efl). Your ISO is then governed by your shutter time and the amount of light pollution you have in your sky at the time of imaging, more light pollution lower ISO. Dark sites will require high ISO. The more frames you take the lower the noise 9 frames gives 1/3 reduction 16 frames 1/4 and 25 frames 1/5 etc.

The other option is to use a tracker and longer shutter times but try not to go much more than 60 seconds. Above 60 secs I would favour increasing ISO over longer times even if my tracker coped with star trailing.

blu-by-u 6th July 2018 03:25 AM

Re: Milky Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by birdboy (Post 450454)
For a non tracking mount such as tripod your shutter time is governed by how fussy you want to be over star trailing 500, 400 rule (shutter time =400/efl). Your ISO is then governed by your shutter time and the amount of light pollution you have in your sky at the time of imaging, more light pollution lower ISO. Dark sites will require high ISO. The more frames you take the lower the noise 9 frames gives 1/3 reduction 16 frames 1/4 and 25 frames 1/5 etc.

The other option is to use a tracker and longer shutter times but try not to go much more than 60 seconds. Above 60 secs I would favour increasing ISO over longer times even if my tracker coped with star trailing.

Trying to digest the above.

Using the 7-14 at 7mm & taking the 400 rule, 400/(7X2) = 28s.
Can I use the Em1ii's stacking to do the stacking or should I use the desktop program like RegiStax?

If using out of camera stacking, should I use the LiveComp, LifeTime or just 28s?

Will be travelling to Mt.Bromo/Surabaya/Indonesia to try the milkyway on the 10th July.

Stay tune for photos..hopefully:o


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