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OlyFlyer
22nd January 2008, 10:50 PM
I am sorry if I am the kill joy again, but one of the members has just pointed me to the terms and conditions of the forum.

When posting images to the forum, your image may be downloaded and edited and/or enhanced by another forum user for re-posting in the interests of topical forum debate. This evolution of forum practice has worked well, so if you prefer that your images not be changed and reposted, you must clearly state this in your original posting.

That happaned because I complained about downloading, editing and re-posting one of my images. To me, it is wrong if that is allowed by default, and I, the original photographer and the copyright owner must state specifically if I don't want that. I don't want to use the word 'artist' but I do anyway. Now, do you all consider it is OK to do that with your images without being asked for in advance? Aren't you the artist, the one who decides if you want your image altered in any way? Or is that so that like me, and this member, the terms were not known before, because, honestly, not everybody reads everything in advance. I am sure namely, that the terms were not known to this member, until after several message postings, and possibly some help from somebody else in this matter, who pointed him to the terms.

IMO, if an image is posted, it is everybodies freedom to critisize that image in any way verbally, but to edit an image unless it is asked for is wrong, way out of line, regardless how well meant that is, and I should not have to be one who needs to state that every time I post an image. Only I, the 'artist' have the right to decide what is and what is not an enhancement of my image. I am however always ready to listen to any critical words about my images. I thougth that was very clear here, since this is a photo forum. Apparently, I was mistaken. :mad:

OK, enough ranting for today. I will carefully reconsider posting images next time (if there will be a next time), and I am very sad that this behavoir is considered OK on this forum.

Barr1e
23rd January 2008, 08:22 AM
I am sorry if I am the kill joy again, but one of the members has just pointed me to the terms and conditions of the forum.



That happaned because I complained about downloading, editing and re-posting one of my images. To me, it is wrong if that is allowed by default, and I, the original photographer and the copyright owner must state specifically if I don't want that. I don't want to use the word 'artist' but I do anyway. Now, do you all consider it is OK to do that with your images without being asked for in advance? Aren't you the artist, the one who decides if you want your image altered in any way? Or is that so that like me, and this member, the terms were not known before, because, honestly, not everybody reads everything in advance. I am sure namely, that the terms were not known to this member, until after several message postings, and possibly some help from somebody else in this matter, who pointed him to the terms.

IMO, if an image is posted, it is everybodies freedom to critisize that image in any way verbally, but to edit an image unless it is asked for is wrong, way out of line, regardless how well meant that is, and I should not have to be one who needs to state that every time I post an image. Only I, the 'artist' have the right to decide what is and what is not an enhancement of my image. I am however always ready to listen to any critical words about my images. I thougth that was very clear here, since this is a photo forum. Apparently, I was mistaken. :mad:

OK, enough ranting for today. I will carefully reconsider posting images next time (if there will be a next time), and I am very sad that this behavoir is considered OK on this forum.

If my living was made as a photograher and I posted on any site I would obviously look at the terms and conditions and if they didn't suit wouldn't post. If one embedded a copyright symbol onto the pic how would it affect one's rights?

For me personally, I would be flattered to think my picture was worthy of being used and all I would ask that my name be that of the taker.

I do understand though OlyFlyer the point you are making.

Regards. Barr1e

Ian
23rd January 2008, 08:44 AM
I understand the concern here, but the terms and conditions are quite clear and I believe that the benefits are tangible. BUT, it's always best if you ask permission before altering someone else's picture. I will update the T&C to require permission to be sought from the photographer - at least to clarify if that photographer is happy for his or her photographs to be altered as a matter of course here on the the forum.

Ian

Scapula Memory
23rd January 2008, 10:18 AM
I am sorry if I am the kill joy again, but one of the members has just pointed me to the terms and conditions of the forum.



That happaned because I complained about downloading, editing and re-posting one of my images. To me, it is wrong if that is allowed by default, and I, the original photographer and the copyright owner must state specifically if I don't want that. I don't want to use the word 'artist' but I do anyway. Now, do you all consider it is OK to do that with your images without being asked for in advance? Aren't you the artist, the one who decides if you want your image altered in any way? Or is that so that like me, and this member, the terms were not known before, because, honestly, not everybody reads everything in advance. I am sure namely, that the terms were not known to this member, until after several message postings, and possibly some help from somebody else in this matter, who pointed him to the terms.

IMO, if an image is posted, it is everybodies freedom to critisize that image in any way verbally, but to edit an image unless it is asked for is wrong, way out of line, regardless how well meant that is, and I should not have to be one who needs to state that every time I post an image. Only I, the 'artist' have the right to decide what is and what is not an enhancement of my image. I am however always ready to listen to any critical words about my images. I thougth that was very clear here, since this is a photo forum. Apparently, I was mistaken. :mad:

OK, enough ranting for today. I will carefully reconsider posting images next time (if there will be a next time), and I am very sad that this behavoir is considered OK on this forum.

What might be helpful here is if Ian changes the default setting for image edit to " no " meaning that the user would have to give permission on request to allow another user to edit the image. This would certainly remove the surprise of having ones images edited without you realising that can be done. I think that would remove the confusion you have experienced.

On another note however I think the T&Cs here are very clear and easy to understand. It can be solidly argued that it is your responsibility to read them as you would have ticked a box in the set up process that says you agree to the terms here. You must have ticked that box to agree to these terms. As a user of any forum or web site I always look at the terms and conditions thoroughly and most definately the privacy policy and have sometimes disagreed with them for whatever reason and chosen not to continue. You say yourself that no one reads things right through but there are many others that do.

Having said that I cannot imagine users on here altering images in any other way other than for the purpose of helping others. I think this is a very useful facility to have and I myself have benefitted from this.

John

PS: Looks like Ian has seen this already.

E-P1 fan
23rd January 2008, 10:26 AM
Having said that I cannot imagine users on here altering images in any other way other than for the purpose of helping others. I think this is a very useful facility to have and I myself have benefitted from this. John

I agree I'd hate this to be adversley affected. If anyone is really precious about any specific images - don't post them.
This is an amateur forum isn't it? :confused:

PeterD
23rd January 2008, 10:34 AM
What might be helpful here is if Ian changes the default setting for image edit to " no " meaning that the user would have to give permission on request to allow another user to edit the image. This would certainly remove the surprise of having ones images edited without you realising that can be done. I think that would remove the confusion you have experienced.

On another note however I think the T&Cs here are very clear and easy to understand. It can be solidly argued that it is your responsibility to read them as you would have ticked a box in the set up process that says you agree to the terms here. You must have ticked that box to agree to these terms. As a user of any forum or web site I always look at the terms and conditions thoroughly and most definately the privacy policy and have sometimes disagreed with them for whatever reason and chosen not to continue. You say yourself that no one reads things right through but there are many others that do.

Having said that I cannot imagine users on here altering images in any other way other than for the purpose of helping others. I think this is a very useful facility to have and I myself have benefitted from this.

John

Hi John/OlyFlyer

I think that images posted here should remain the property of the originator whilst also agreeing with you John that changes to images up to now have been done with care and with the sole intention of helping the originator. We should retain this flexibility.

By default, no changes should be allowed but permission to alter/improve images should be requested by PM to the originator. Thats a matter of courtesy. A means to allow editing should then be available, to the originator, to allow the nominated registered user to make changes. When re posted, the modified image should bear the names of the originator and the editor. I woud hope that by this means we can retain the flexibility but protect any potential malicious or unauthorised editing in the future. Each one of us has a unique handle and therefore this should allow such a change to be implemented.

What do you think?

Kind regards

PeterD

OlyFlyer
23rd January 2008, 12:24 PM
First, I must say, somehow I agree with you all.

It may not a big deal, but I think it is bad habit to regard everything on the internet as freeware. Editing an image may be necessary to show something which is difficult to explain, which was not the case in the incident. The words used explained well the points that were critisised, even if I may not agree, but I well understood. So, as I see it, there was absolutely no need.

Regardless of which, I think it should be the opposite way, editing is by default prohibited unless it is asked for or permission is granted by the photographer.

I disagree with the comment that this is an amateur forum, because it has nothing to do with if you are an amateur or a pro. As a matter of fact, I have written a few articles in a Swedish aviation magazine a few years back (the magazine does not exist any more) and every time I sent in some material I had to sign an agreement that the illustrations are mine, or I have permission to use them. Until I produced that, the magazine would not print, regardless of how obvious it was that I would be the copyright owner or that I would have the permission. So, even if my images were printed, I am still an amateur because I feed my family using money I earn mainly through other type of work, not photography or writing. Now I am 'working' on another project, and when that is finished, I will still be an amateur, in fact, I have taken a decision about 30 years ago never to become a pro photographer, but that is a different story.

I also agree that the T&C is clear and easyly understood, but understandig it was not the problem. I admit, I didn't read it, because for such a basic thing, I assumed it would be the other way round, not the way it says in the T&C. When the T&C was pointed out to me, I apologized to the member, since he was following the rules (probably not knowing he was, but anyhow...), and I was stupid not reading the T&C before posting my images. To sum up the whole story, it was totally my fault, I neglected reading the T&C.

What I would wonder, how many can honestly state they read every word of it, and all the other conditions and rules? I am however very glad if the T&C is getting an update in this regard. It is easier to do that while the forum is still small.

Cheers.

theMusicMan
23rd January 2008, 01:47 PM
Ian - can I make a suggestion here please. How about adding a custom field (checkbox yes/no) to the profile page (postbit_legacy template) that is default to no that a user sets in their profile settings - this field is the indication of if a user wants their images to be amended or not?

OK, it is a 'for all' images, but if the default is no, then a user can set to yes if they don't mind generally, but state in the post that this one shouldn't. Or, they leave as set to 'no' and state in the post that they don't mind for this particular image.

Win-Win then... :)

OlyFlyer
23rd January 2008, 02:25 PM
Ian - can I make a suggestion here please. How about adding a custom field (checkbox yes/no) to the profile page (postbit_legacy template) that is default to no that a user sets in their profile settings - this field is the indication of if a user wants their images to be amended or not?

OK, it is a 'for all' images, but if the default is no, then a user can set to yes if they don't mind generally, but state in the post that this one shouldn't. Or, they leave as set to 'no' and state in the post that they don't mind for this particular image.

Win-Win then... :)Good idea, but the T&C must even in that case be changed to prevent contradiction.

Graham_of_Rainham
23rd January 2008, 02:36 PM
I am the one that had to point out the Ts&Cs, which I had read when I first joined the group. They are very clear and the particular rule provides a simply and very effective way of conveying thoughts. (Picture vs 1000 words etc...)

I strongly believe they should NOT be changed, they are the rules and anyone not likeing them should not use the forums. However if as suggested the system can be enhanced to provide a Tick Box ("do not edit this picture", which by default should be set in line with the existing rules), then everyone should be satisfied.

If anyone took the time and trouble to edit one of my images and give constructive comments, I'd be only to gratefull to them, in the same way as I respect the opinions of judges who I present my work to. I may not always agree but that is the condition which we accept when entering competitions and Forums such as this...

Hopefully this "debate" will serve to enlighten members to the "Rules" and we can continue to use the forum as it was intended to be used, without further distraction or upsetting peoples sensibilities...

Regards to all

Graham

E-P1 fan
23rd January 2008, 02:47 PM
I am the one that had to point out the Ts&Cs, which I had read when I first joined the group. They are very clear and the particular rule provides a simply and very effective way of conveying thoughts. (Picture vs 1000 words etc...)

I strongly believe they should NOT be changed, they are the rules and anyone not likeing them should not use the forums. However if as suggested the system can be enhanced to provide a Tick Box ("do not edit this picture", which by default should be set in line with the existing rules), then everyone should be satisfied.

If anyone took the time and trouble to edit one of my images and give constructive comments, I'd be only to gratefull to them, in the same way as I respect the opinions of judges who I present my work to. I may not always agree but that is the condition which we accept when entering competitions and Forums such as this...

Hopefully this "debate" will serve to enlighten members to the "Rules" and we can continue to use the forum as it was intended to be used, without further distraction or upsetting peoples sensibilities...

Regards to all

Graham

Well said Graham. I reckon it's an over-reaction too

OlyFlyer
23rd January 2008, 07:17 PM
I am the one that had to point out the Ts&Cs, which I had read when I first joined the group. They are very clear and the particular rule provides a simply and very effective way of conveying thoughts. (Picture vs 1000 words etc...)

I strongly believe they should NOT be changed, they are the rules and anyone not likeing them should not use the forums. However if as suggested the system can be enhanced to provide a Tick Box ("do not edit this picture", which by default should be set in line with the existing rules), then everyone should be satisfied.

If anyone took the time and trouble to edit one of my images and give constructive comments, I'd be only to gratefull to them, in the same way as I respect the opinions of judges who I present my work to. I may not always agree but that is the condition which we accept when entering competitions and Forums such as this...

Hopefully this "debate" will serve to enlighten members to the "Rules" and we can continue to use the forum as it was intended to be used, without further distraction or upsetting peoples sensibilities...

Regards to all

GrahamWell, what can I say, I'd have expected you to strongly disagree with me, if nothing else, just as a matter of principle...

Good that we have at least one member here who is free of faults and honest about having read the T&C. I am not that perfect, as I already admitted. Had you pointed me to the T&C in your first PM to me as an answer to my own PM to you, than maybe it would not have gone so far and would have believed you actually knew it was OK according to forum's T&C. I wonder why I doubt you knew that from the start, regardless of what you say now afterwords...

Anyway, the problem is that it can NEVER be wrong to ask for permission, but it CAN be wrong to not to and assume everybody os happy with that. Regardless if I was the stupid part (according to you) or not.

In my answer to you, I did thank you for your comments, so you are a bit unfair here, publicly claiming I was not thankful. You can hoewever NEVER claim that your comments weight more than my own, or somebody elses judgment on how MY image should look like, or should be crippled, even if you regard it as constructive criticism. To demand greatfulness is definitely going too far. I appreciate the time people are taking here, and every other forum where I am active, but as far as I see it, I have absolutely nothing to be greatful for. I regard my own contributions to more than well balance other peoples, maybe with you as an exception.

Personally, I think it's a shame that you posted your message on this thread because it makes it look like a fight between you and me. It is not about that at all. If I wanted to make it personal, I wouldn't have removed my answer to you from the actual post and image I was refering to, so other people could pass judgement on better base and could discuss differently.

My guess is that if this attitude is allowed here, not many people will post images, because, generally, I am 100% sure that most people don't appreciate that kind of 'helpful advice', even if they don't say it out loud, like I do it here. It shows a lack of respect for other peoples work and property, regardless of how worthless you regard that property is, because however you see it, the so called work you spent on my image was nothing comparable to the work and time I spend on them. A few quick moves is not what I call constructive criticism, what is constractive criticism is the comments I read on my other thread with the Tower bridge image, that is a good example of that. The problem is, I wasted too much time on your criticism to thank those people and answer them. Please, pay a visit there and read the comments, so you'll learn about how to give feed back and how to critisize using words.

The "Picture vs 1000 words etc..." is just bull. Some things are better expressed using words and considering your native language is English, that should be easier for you than for me. I agree, it has become an overreaction, thanks to your contribution, and the blame it on others attitude. For me it was just a question of what people consider here is OK. So far, you are the only one I see who clearly say you are agains ANY change in the way things are in the T&C. What a surprise...

Yes, some don't care, but I guess the majority would like it the other way round, of course, this is just my guess. Why is it so difficult to ask first? That's the way I was brought up. Ask before take anything.

Ellie
24th January 2008, 01:01 AM
I understand the concern here, but the terms and conditions are quite clear and I believe that the benefits are tangible. BUT, it's always best if you ask permission before altering someone else's picture. I will update the T&C to require permission to be sought from the photographer - at least to clarify if that photographer is happy for his or her photographs to be altered as a matter of course here on the the forum.
I thought I'd read the T&C carefully when I joined, but I must admit I didn't notice this. :o

I'd sort of thought there might be software that wouldn't let pictures be downloaded, because there's so much stuff about people taking pictures and using them somewhere else, being able to right click on any picture site is open to abuse. Mind you, I don't know if I'd be annoyed or pleased if it happened to something of mine, I think it would depend how and where it was used.

I've posted pictures on other sites, nobody has ever downloaded and edited them without asking first, in fact they've always asked if I'd send them a copy by email. I hadn't imagined anybody would do it without asking beforehand. So I suppose it puts me in the "No, not unless you ask first" camp.

I know I haven't been here very long, so perhaps I shouldn't have said anything.

PeterD
24th January 2008, 01:14 AM
I thought I'd read the T&C carefully when I joined, but I must admit I didn't notice this. :o

I'd sort of thought there might be software that wouldn't let pictures be downloaded, because there's so much stuff about people taking pictures and using them somewhere else, being able to right click on any picture site is open to abuse. Mind you, I don't know if I'd be annoyed or pleased if it happened to something of mine, I think it would depend how and where it was used.

I've posted pictures on other sites, nobody has ever downloaded and edited them without asking first, in fact they've always asked if I'd send them a copy by email. I hadn't imagined anybody would do it without asking beforehand. So I suppose it puts me in the "No, not unless you ask first" camp.

I know I haven't been here very long, so perhaps I shouldn't have said anything.

Ellie,

You have every right to give your opinion and thank you for it. As you will see in my earlier post I agree with you too.

Kind regards

PeterD

Nick Temple-Fry
24th January 2008, 01:22 AM
I thought I'd read the T&C carefully when I joined, but I must admit I didn't notice this. :o

I'd sort of thought there might be software that wouldn't let pictures be downloaded, because there's so much stuff about people taking pictures and using them somewhere else, being able to right click on any picture site is open to abuse. Mind you, I don't know if I'd be annoyed or pleased if it happened to something of mine, I think it would depend how and where it was used.

I've posted pictures on other sites, nobody has ever downloaded and edited them without asking first, in fact they've always asked if I'd send them a copy by email. I hadn't imagined anybody would do it without asking beforehand. So I suppose it puts me in the "No, not unless you ask first" camp.

I know I haven't been here very long, so perhaps I shouldn't have said anything.

If you post on the internet then there is no guarantee that the image will not be 'stolen'; right-click protection is little more than a convention amongst software writers, certainly it is easy to circumvent.

But all they are stealing is a web-sized copy of your original photograph, something you've already made public to the whole world by putting on the internet. They might be able to make a passable A4 print, but not a proper photograph.

Please don't let this put you off from posting to the web, there is very little sadder than a photograph scared to be shared.

OlyFlyer
24th January 2008, 12:50 PM
I must say that this is not about stealing an image. That is a completely different, and far more serious thing, which I would definitely take to another level. This is about dowloading, editing and reposting an image on the same, or different thread without asking for permission to do so. This is OK by default according to the forum rules but not OK according to what I have been used to.

To prevent stealing and downloading images is possible, but then it would no longer be possible to include images, only to point to them using a link. If I wanted to do that, I could do that, but that kills some of the fun in foruming, the ability to see images directly, without having to click on a link.

As for only low resolution web images can be stolen and they are uselss, that is wrong. Web marketing is not new and in that case web size images are used. Even newspapers and magazines can without problems use the low res images, so regardless of resulution, a web sized image may even represent a bigger value than a full size image, depending on the use. But again, this is not about preventing stealing, it is more about politness, and reading the T&C, which I admittedly not done before joining, even if I normally am very careful, but missed this time. As it seems, I am not alone on this one, even if very few dare to admit it that being the case.

Just because one makes some images awailable for everyone to see does not make them a free, public property. Anybody walking passed my garden can see my garden, plants, flowers, childrens toys, furniture or whatever is there at the moment of walking. That does not mean it is free to take, not even if something is reachable without entering. It's OK for anybody to have a look, that's all. I could buid a high fence to prevent taking anything, and could have some ugly big and angry dogs to guard my property, but I don't. I prefer it that way, and at the same time I am aware that I am taking some risks, which is not the same as I have to accept if something gets stolen. Of course, I would be angry. I think that is the way everybody sees his home, garden and every other property he/she is posessing. I know some people don't see photographs on the Internet that way, which I thing is a sad negative evolution of moral. But that is a different discussion all together.

BigD
24th January 2008, 09:53 PM
i think the tick box would be the best idea indeed, im quite happy for people to edit my pictures IF there reposting them with what and how they've improved them, as im still learning and photography is mainly a hobby for me.

Ellie
27th January 2008, 11:24 PM
No no, oh goodness me, I know there's no guarantee on the internet but I don't think this is about stealing pictures - which is done in secret. I know how easy it is for people to use/get an image even with the right click disabled because I've been shown how. (No, I won't do it, it was to show how easy it is). All it takes is a bit of time and effort, and with resizing software it's possible to get a usable image. It hasn't put me off putting pictures online, but now I'm more aware of what can happen to them.

If I see a place (forum/folder) where it says clearly that a picture can/might be downloaded and edited by others 'for critique' then it's up to me whether to post something there or not. Anywhere else I would prefer to be asked.

E-P1 fan
28th January 2008, 09:11 AM
Agree Ellie.

The sort of person who is going to deliberately 'steal' someone else's image and pass it off as their own, or make major changes to an image without the originator having any say in that, is going to do that anyway.

Seems to me the only sensible attitude to take is to realise that anything you put on the internet is fair game to other people and unless you are using special bespoke encryption and copy protection software, any image you post is capable of being used by someone else. Even with special software someone will get past it if they want something badly enough.

As long as the purpose is a personal one, for non-profit motives, I don't personally see much of a problem. If I was really precious about my photos, regarded them solemnly as 'my work' and was paranoid about letting them out into the air - I just wouldn't put them on the internet and I certainly wouldn't post them up in a forum. I'm not that arrogant about what I currently produce :)

It's bit like with children I think. As parents you are always trying to run the right balance between sending them off into the world complete with a set of life-skills and ethics which will help them survive and prosper in an environment that can be hostile - and at the other extreme - being well aware of the risk of keeping them at home, blighting their lives by making them unable to interact with others - virtual prisoners - safe but trapped.

If a Nepalese herdsman wants to have an image of mine as their screensaver - I'd be really pleased. If some less than scrupulous image company was passing my pics off as their own - I'd be pretty cheesed off and want to follow that up - but I don't think the chances of that happening are very likely.

It's risk assessment. All the terms and conditions in the world won't stop someone from 'taking' an internet image and doing what they will with it.
If you don't like it, I respectfully suggest that a return to pre-internet days might be in order for you - where you are the undisputed owner and gatekeeper of the original and where people only see copies which you personally have produced.

However those who have only known the opportunities offered by the internet may find it hard to realise how hard it used to be to get your work seen by ANYONE in pre-internet times!

Melaka
28th January 2008, 09:55 AM
I suspect I'm not alone in not having read the T&C sufficiently carefully before signing up. If nothing else, this thread has brought the problem to light. It certainly wasn't my intention when I posted my photos that they should be available for anyone to download, although I welcome constructive comment.

What in essence we're being invited to do is to sign away the copyright of any photos posted to the site. It doesn't matter whether you're a pro or an amateur, in most cases you will own the copyright of your photos and should be asked before anyone else uses them for any purpose. I regard myself as an amateur but I do get a dozen or so photos published each year and am very diligent in ensuring I get paid for them.

A couple of years ago a photographer friend had several of his photos lifted without his approval from a web site and used by a company in its publicity material. He was pretty irritated, took a tough line and eventually the offending company was obliged to give him goods to the value of over 2,000 for breach of copyright. If they'd asked permission they'd have paid peanuts by comparison.

It's irrelevant to say that because security can be circumvented and photos downloaded without authority that it doesn't matter. It's up to the copyright holder to decide whether he wishes to pursue the matter but if by default download is allowed he cannot do so.

I believe the default positon to be set to NO and that anyone wishing to download photos for whatever reason should seek the approval of the owner.

OlyFlyer
28th January 2008, 01:02 PM
I suspect I'm not alone in not having read the T&C sufficiently carefully before signing up. If nothing else, this thread has brought the problem to light. It certainly wasn't my intention when I posted my photos that they should be available for anyone to download, although I welcome constructive comment.

What in essence we're being invited to do is to sign away the copyright of any photos posted to the site. It doesn't matter whether you're a pro or an amateur, in most cases you will own the copyright of your photos and should be asked before anyone else uses them for any purpose. I regard myself as an amateur but I do get a dozen or so photos published each year and am very diligent in ensuring I get paid for them.

A couple of years ago a photographer friend had several of his photos lifted without his approval from a web site and used by a company in its publicity material. He was pretty irritated, took a tough line and eventually the offending company was obliged to give him goods to the value of over 2,000 for breach of copyright. If they'd asked permission they'd have paid peanuts by comparison.

It's irrelevant to say that because security can be circumvented and photos downloaded without authority that it doesn't matter. It's up to the copyright holder to decide whether he wishes to pursue the matter but if by default download is allowed he cannot do so.

I believe the default positon to be set to NO and that anyone wishing to download photos for whatever reason should seek the approval of the owner. This is something I agree to 100% with.

In fact, just a few days before the event which triggered this thread, I had a discussion about this with my 18 year old son. He had the position that as long as nobody makes money on my images, it is OK to use them, edit them, download them and so on. I made it quite clear to him that just because something is easy, or available to take is not the same as it is free to do so without obligations. I may let Person A do anything with my images, while Person B may only edit some of them, and Person C may not touch them at all. To generally allow anyone to do anything with the images is not something which is normally regarded as OK, regardless of the purpose. Even if my images would be used for charity I would like to be asked for permission in advance each time.

ajwh
28th January 2008, 03:36 PM
Well, speaking as one accused of having stolen images......

Over on DpReview I received an e-mail accusing me of having a stolen image on my PBase website. It was a bit of a shock....

When I checked, it was an image which someone had posted in the OlySLR forum on the lines of "what is the matter with this?". I and several others played with it, in my case adjusting the curve, and to show the difference, I had to host it on PBase (carefully putting it in a "miscellaneous folder" labelled that it was for the purposes of forum discussion).

Yes - I suppose it was "stealing" in one sense - and I removed it - but how ellse can one respond?

Andrew

(PS - the complaint came about 2 years after the original posting)

OlyFlyer
28th January 2008, 09:22 PM
Yes - I suppose it was "stealing" in one sense - and I removed it - but how ellse can one respond? By not participating. You knew it was not your image and probably even knew the copiright owner was not asked. It is not a requirement to participate in every thread, I skip participating if not to my taste, or report to admin if against the rules or regulations.

Stealing an image is ALWAYS against the rules, and as I said that is not the subject of the debate here, because that can NEVER be OK, regardless of which purpose the image is used for. But, I have to admit, I did not read ALL the T&C of DPR. Some rules are well hidden.

ajwh
28th January 2008, 09:45 PM
NO - the copyright author did know! He posted the image, then looked at the modified image I posted showing that there was more image detail in the shadows than had revealed by his processing, and responded to my comments - and those of others in the thread, some of whom had posted other variations with different processing.

You could argue that he didn't realise that in order for me to display the modified image, I would have had to save it somewhere else in the web.....

Ellie
29th January 2008, 01:10 AM
I regard myself as an amateur but I do get a dozen or so photos published each year and am very diligent in ensuring I get paid for them.
I wish! Everybody who asks if they can use pictures from my site expects to get them for nothing.

OlyFlyer
29th January 2008, 09:28 AM
NO - the copyright author did know! He posted the image, then looked at the modified image I posted showing that there was more image detail in the shadows than had revealed by his processing, and responded to my comments - and those of others in the thread, some of whom had posted other variations with different processing.

You could argue that he didn't realise that in order for me to display the modified image, I would have had to save it somewhere else in the web.....Than there was nothing wrong, except maybe hosting the image. On the other hand, it is not possible to post an image on DPR without hosting it somewhere else, since they don't have a gallery.

OlyFlyer
29th January 2008, 09:51 AM
I wish! Everybody who asks if they can use pictures from my site expects to get them for nothing.That's just it, normally I have no problem if people ask.

OlyFlyer
4th March 2008, 09:00 PM
I guess since the discussion about the T&C wording is forgotten (last post is over a month old), there is not going to be any change about this question.

It's a pitty IMO.

BigD
4th March 2008, 09:46 PM
cant you just add on your thread that you dont want the picture copied/saved unless asked.

PeterD
4th March 2008, 09:54 PM
Perhaps this is something for John (Music Man) to consider. He can work with Ian to decide what to do.

PeterD

theMusicMan
4th March 2008, 10:01 PM
Perhaps this is something for John (Music Man) to consider. He can work with Ian to decide what to do.

PeterDSure, I'm happy to take this on and bring it to a resolution... just need to ensure this is OK with Cp'n Ian.:D

PeterD
4th March 2008, 10:08 PM
Sure, I'm happy to take this on and bring it to a resolution... just need to ensure this is OK with Cp'n Ian.:D

Thanks John.
I was quite taken aback with your swift response. Either you are lurking on here a lot more now or you have an alarm system in operation;). Guess it comes with the job.

PeterD

Nick Temple-Fry
4th March 2008, 10:15 PM
Sure, I'm happy to take this on and bring it to a resolution... just need to ensure this is OK with Cp'n Ian.:D

Why not just put it to a vote.

Mind you I'd be sad to see the status quo change.

Nick

Graham_of_Rainham
4th March 2008, 10:37 PM
As the "root cause" of this debate, may I request that a simple reminder is added to the posting process so that all those posting images are reminded of the rules.

I do not believe there is anything wrong with the current rules and as such they should not be changed.

If I didn't like them I wouldn't have joined...