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wornish
22nd April 2019, 09:30 AM
A recent study in Germany shows that electric vehicles actually pollute more than Diesel ones. Who would have believed it?


http://brusselstimes.com/business/technology/15050/electric-vehicles-emit-more-co2-than-diesel-ones,-german-study-shows

shenstone
22nd April 2019, 09:56 AM
Indeed. I believe this is reasonably accurate and when you consider the heavy metals and rare earth elements needed for modern electronics there are a number of other actors as well which need to be considered in terms of total environmental impact

IMO electric vehicles are useful for improving air quality in critical areas and that is the main reason to consider them but the hype that goes with them (which I have researched a lot recently leading up to an electric motorcycle purchase for my wife) omits so many facts that the manufacturers miss out that it is east to draw the wrong conclusions

The main thing we need to consider is thinking more long term. Many of those rare elements are not easy to recycle out from electronic compounds whereas the energy used to produce my 31Yr old Land Rover is still in use (not 10 years as per the study).

regards
Andy

drmarkf
22nd April 2019, 10:06 AM
Nothing new there, Dave. However, you need to delete the word ‘pollute’ in your post and replace it with something like ‘release much more CO2’.

I assume you’re not arguing for ignoring the 30,000 premature deaths in the U.K. per year caused by vehicle emissions on our roads, so pollution as defined by that is indeed vastly worse with old diesel engines (those not meeting the latest NCAP standards), especially the very oldest. Those are usually commercial vehicles.

If we were to switch rapidly away from diesels in the U.K. we’d lose all chance of meeting our agreed CO2 emission target.

The latest NCAP diesels have much lower CO2 emissions than the latest petrol cars, and as good or better particulate pollution emissions. So the current media and government downer on all diesels is actually damaging to all sorts of genuinely important interests.

The problem with electric vehicles at the moment is that although they don’t produce particulates on the road, most of their electric power is produced in fossil-fuel powered generating stations: the current administration’s appalling withdrawal of encouragement for investment in renewable energy is partly to blame for the U.K. slowing its investment in this, but the inevitable economics of the market have now turned somewhat in that direction regardless of their kowtowing to the fossil fuel industry.

The big advantage of electric vehicles regardless of how their power is generated is that even coal and gas power stations aren’t situated in city centres where your children will be breathing it in and contributing to the 30,000.

Ricoh
22nd April 2019, 10:28 AM
What about the folks (I hate the bastardisation of the English language) mining neodymium on minimum wage, probably at subsistence or sub-subsistence levels suffering serious health risks. I suspect the average bod doesn't give these poor sods a second thought as they enter the flashy car showroom.

In the grand scale of things, my intuition informs me that the environment would be in a better place if cars were kept and used for 10 years before replacement. There is a tremendous cost to the environment to manufacture new cars.

Naughty Nigel
22nd April 2019, 11:50 AM
I assume you’re not arguing for ignoring the 30,000 premature deaths in the U.K. per year caused by vehicle emissions on our roads, so pollution as defined by that is indeed vastly worse with old diesel engines (those not meeting the latest NCAP standards), especially the very oldest. Those are usually commercial vehicles.

You are making several wild assumptions there Mark.

Firstly, that the emissions responsible for those 30,000 premature deaths all originate from motor vehicle exhausts, and specifically road vehicles. I am not convinced that they do.

Secondly, that fossil fuel fired power stations are emission free and won't cause wider global damage. I am not convinced that they are;

Thirdly, that the materials used to produce electric cars and their battery systems are inherently safe. I am not convinced that they are either;

Fourthly, that there is no risk attached to particulate matter originating from rubber tyres and brake friction materials; both of which are used in ICE and electric vehicles;

Finally, that there would be no deaths as a result of the manufacture or use of electric vehicles. For example, how many more people might be run over by silent cars than by clattering diesels?


As I see it, engineers have been very successful in cleaning up pollution so that we no longer realise that we are polluting. The smoke from steam trains and old diesel engines was obvious, and to a degree self-limiting because there were limits to what we could function in, and what we would put up with. Electric vehicles are just an exercise in moving pollution somewhere else to people who don't matter as much, and don't have as many votes as those in the big cities.

The DPF systems fitted to diesel engines reduce particulate emissions to very low levels. Modern petrol engines are also very clean, but the remaining particulates are tiny. Crucially, these particulates are of 'respirable size', and are much smaller than those from older engines.

My guess it that whilst the exhaust fumes from a thirty year old diesel Land Rover may be unpleasant, they may actually be less harmful to us than the exhaust fumes from a Euro 6 Discovery.

Somebody recently said that the private motor car is a failed 20th century experiment which should be scrapped. I tend to agree. Rather than making pollution cleaner we really need to find ways of polluting less.

TimP
22nd April 2019, 12:45 PM
Nigel, do you suggest we all sit in the dark at home?
Also, Steve, whilst you are right about the effects on the miners, if you were to take away their jobs they wouldn’t thank you for that. Give them an alternative and it would be different though.
Sadly the world is an unfair, overpopulated place, we all have to die of something (hopefully before dementia gets us) and the rich (mostly) don’t care about anything except themselves. Ever it was and ever it shall be I expect.

RobEW
22nd April 2019, 01:39 PM
...

In the grand scale of things, my intuition informs me that the environment would be in a better place if cars were kept and used for 10 years before replacement. There is a tremendous cost to the environment to manufacture new cars.

Deliberately built-in obsolescence in all manner of technology, including white goods and other products like soft furnishings and clothes, is a massive environmental scandal which seemingly no government is prepared to address. Durability of most products has gone down and down. Cars however seem to have bucked the trend. In my memory (40+ years ago) a car which did 100k miles was extraordinary, whereas now it is normal.

Naughty Nigel
22nd April 2019, 08:01 PM
Nigel, do you suggest we all sit in the dark at home?
Also, Steve, whilst you are right about the effects on the miners, if you were to take away their jobs they wouldn’t thank you for that. Give them an alternative and it would be different though.
Sadly the world is an unfair, overpopulated place, we all have to die of something (hopefully before dementia gets us) and the rich (mostly) don’t care about anything except themselves. Ever it was and ever it shall be I expect.

Where did I suggest that we should sit in the dark?

Transport of all kinds uses thousands of times more energy and creates thousands of times more pollution than light bulbs.

The private motor car is probably the most inefficient and polluting mode of land transport ever devised, especially if only the driver is on board. Even air travel generates fewer KG of CO2 per passenger mile travelled.

The fact is that a large percentage of road journeys and flights are unnecessary, or could be avoided with better planning and organisation.

The problem is that successive governments have come to rely on the vast revenue generated by road users so whatever the claimed risks to health caused by motor vehicles they are unlikely to want to reduce road travel any time soon.

Naughty Nigel
22nd April 2019, 08:24 PM
Deliberately built-in obsolescence in all manner of technology, including white goods and other products like soft furnishings and clothes, is a massive environmental scandal which seemingly no government is prepared to address. Durability of most products has gone down and down. Cars however seem to have bucked the trend. In my memory (40+ years ago) a car which did 100k miles was extraordinary, whereas now it is normal.

I would agree that modern cars have bucked the obsolescence trend in some ways, but many perfectly serviceable vehicles are scrapped prematurely because the cost and complexity of electronics makes even simple repairs uneconomic.

A few weeks ago the coil pack failed on our Vx Corsa. Thankfully this was covered by the extended warranty so the job was entrusted to our local Vauxhall Main Dealer, which curiously enough shares its name with Robin Hood's forest!

Anyhow, I told Service Reception exactly what the problem was, but was told that they would need to plug it into the computer to check the fault codes, and that the extended warranty may not cover this. Cost £60 + VAT.

Around 10.30 am I received a call from the garage informing me that I was right and that the coil pack was indeed faulty. The replacement part was £247.00 + VAT, which was covered by the warranty, but I was told that the job specification required new spark plugs to be fitted. I argued the toss pointing out that the car had only covered 24,000 miles but was given some bullshit about not being able to warranty the replacement coil pack unless new plugs were fitted! Cost £72.46 + VAT!

Now I can remember when a set of Champion N9Y spark plugs could be bought for £1/-/- (5/- each), whilst a Joe Lucas, Prince of Darkness ignition coil cost about £3/-/-. How and why have these parts become so expensive?

All in all this very simple job added up to £554.95 including labour (for a two minute job), so is it any wonder that so many perfectly good vehicles are scrapped?

Graham_of_Rainham
22nd April 2019, 08:34 PM
Anyone who is serious about tackling the problem of climate change and lowering their households carbon footprint, has to take serious consideration of their lifestyle choices.

Pet ownership has a much bigger carbon footprint than car ownership

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2017/08/02/whats-your-dogs-carbon-pawprint/#2cada88413a6

wornish
22nd April 2019, 08:49 PM
Anyone who is serious about tackling the problem of climate change and lowering their households carbon footprint, has to take serious consideration of their lifestyle choices.

Pet ownership has a much bigger carbon footprint than car ownership

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2017/08/02/whats-your-dogs-carbon-pawprint/#2cada88413a6

Unbelievable, don't know where to even begin with the Forbes article.

So no pets - that will fix it.

Talk about lost the plot - jeesh! Virtue signaling in overdrive.

By the way, the climate has changed and will continue to change because of things way more significant than pet ownership - perhaps look at Sun activity, for example, just a thought.

Graham_of_Rainham
22nd April 2019, 09:39 PM
People cannot change the activity of the sun. So we must look at the things we can change.

Meat production is by far the best place to start.

Plus it’s not just one source of data saying that pets are a problem
https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/4/16094674/cats-dogs-meat-diet-greenhouse-gases-climate-change

Reforestation is another huge change that needs to be made.

As for cars, simply having the correct tyre pressure can make a significant difference to fuel consumption. When I undertook an advanced drivers course, the first thing they said was they would save me money on fuel and I would more often than not cut my journey time.

Jax
22nd April 2019, 10:10 PM
I don't pretend to be anywhere near as technically knowledgeable as many on here about climate change or the reasons that cause it.

One thing I don't understand is whilst I have seen many comments blaming diesel cars and now of all things even pet ownership, little has been said regarding the effects of the hundreds of thousands of passenger jets in the skies every minute of the day and night. Is this because aviation fuel does not have the same impact as diesel fuel or is it simply due to political or financial motives and far easier to blame car usage ? Surely the billions of gallons of aviation fuel burned by passenger aircraft every hour comes close or exceeds the amount consumed by the worlds vehicles.

Maybe someone with technical knowledge can explain ?

Jax

Naughty Nigel
22nd April 2019, 10:31 PM
I don't pretend to be anywhere near as technically knowledgeable as many on here about climate change or the reasons that cause it.

One thing I don't understand is whilst I have seen many comments blaming diesel cars and now of all things even pet ownership, little has been said regarding the effects of the hundreds of thousands of passenger jets in the skies every minute of the day and night. Is this because aviation fuel does not have the same impact as diesel fuel or is it simply due to political or financial motives and far easier to blame car usage ? Surely the billions of gallons of aviation fuel burned by passenger aircraft every hour comes close or exceeds the amount consumed by the worlds vehicles.

Maybe someone with technical knowledge can explain ?

Jax

I share your concerns in this regard. The fact that CO2 is generated at 40,000' must also be a factor, although I believe jet aircraft do help to burn methane in the earth's upper atmosphere which is around four times more powerful as a greenhouse gas than CO2.

That said, the fuel burnt per passenger mile by modern aircraft compares very favourably with private motor vehicles.

As far as I know there is little or no tax on aviation fuel; hence the reason it is dyed to prevent use in road vehicles. (I used to use Avgas 100LL in my racing bike. Avgas is coloured blue.)

For aviation fuel tax to be workable there would need to be consensus between governments otherwise airlines would simply route via countries where aviation fuel tax was lowest. This was one of the reasons for Shannon Airport in Southern Ireland becoming an important stopping off point for transatlantic flights in times of old. The Duty Free shop there was also one of the biggest rip-offs I have ever come across in my life. Oddly enough, everything is priced in $USD. Gullible or what? :)

MJ224
23rd April 2019, 07:10 AM
A recent study in Germany shows that electric vehicles actually pollute more than Diesel ones. Who would have believed it?


http://brusselstimes.com/business/technology/15050/electric-vehicles-emit-more-co2-than-diesel-ones,-german-study-shows

We saw a summary n here several months ago. If I remember, Electric cars were slightly more expensive to build and the same for disposal. But fuel wise a lot cheaper to run. It's all a bit "how long is a piece of string"...…..

If you take into account oil exploration, refining, shipping, storage and local distribution, Fossil fuel has already racked up quite a massive CO2 footprint.

My little all electric car gets its energy from wind and sun, via Ecotricity, thus its CO2 footprint is small, as the cost of motoring (fuel-wise) shows.

But as we have already discussed here, all personal transport is expensive, and costs...…...even a bicycle costs CO2 to build. Oh Shanks pony is quite cheap, but still needs leather and food to sustain...….

Now how long was that piece of string...………...*chr

Naughty Nigel
23rd April 2019, 07:38 AM
If you take into account oil exploration, refining, shipping, storage and local distribution. Fossil fuel has already racked up quite a massive CO2 footprint.

My little all electric car gets its energy from wind and sun, via Ecotricity, thus its CO2 footprint is small, as the cost of motoring (fuel-wise) shows.


For that matter so has the sustainable industry business. Wind turbines are responsible for a lot of CO2 emissions at the building and construction stages, (so called Grey Energy), whilst it has been claimed that solar panels require more energy to produce them than they will ever generate in service. I am not sure if that still holds true, but of course energy used and emissions created in China or India on our behalf don't count towards the UK's CO2 quota. :rolleyes:

Edit: I would also suggest that the reason your electric car has low running (fuel) costs is that government has yet to find a way of applying road fuel duty on electricity used to charge electric cars. Enjoy it whilst you can because at some point the Chancellor will need to collect the money currently being lost to electric and hybrid vehicles.

But never mind cats, dogs and motor cars, I read an interesting article recently where it was claimed that the concrete, cement and construction industries were jointly responsible for significantly greater CO2 emissions than the global aviation industry!

Whatever the facts behind these stories it seems that we will all have to face some uncomfortable truths in the near future.

TimP
23rd April 2019, 08:44 AM
I share your concerns in this regard. The fact that CO2 is generated at 40,000' must also be a factor, although I believe jet aircraft do help to burn methane in the earth's upper atmosphere which is around four times more powerful as a greenhouse gas than CO2.

That said, the fuel burnt per passenger mile by modern aircraft compares very favourably with private motor vehicles.

As far as I know there is little or no tax on aviation fuel; hence the reason it is dyed to prevent use in road vehicles. (I used to use Avgas 100LL in my racing bike. Avgas is coloured blue.)

For aviation fuel tax to be workable there would need to be consensus between governments otherwise airlines would simply route via countries where aviation fuel tax was lowest. This was one of the reasons for Shannon Airport in Southern Ireland becoming an important stopping off point for transatlantic flights in times of old. The Duty Free shop there was also one of the biggest rip-offs I have ever come across in my life. Oddly enough, everything is priced in $USD. Gullible or what? :)

Aviation fuel (passenger aircraft) is basically paraffin and won’t run a normal car anyway.
Talking of duty free shops, I always visit them when at LHR and chuckle at the price of the ‘discounted’ memory cards. Do people actually think they are saving money??

Perhaps we ought to look at stopping all motor sport and banning climate change conferences too.

DerekW
23rd April 2019, 09:08 AM
The basic cause of CO2 is life. So reduce life, do not create so many humans that are going to reproduce and use cars etc.
Even an heir and a spare is prolific breeding and causing unneccessary numbers of humans - If you have more than one child you are the problem.

Otto
23rd April 2019, 09:26 AM
Yep, there are too many people. Virtually every problem the human race faces is down to over-population. Sure it would be better if cars lasted longer and people didn't throw perfectly good clothes away but then there would be more people out of work. Our way of life has become inherently unsustainable.

TimP
23rd April 2019, 09:51 AM
Agree, far too many people and the ones currently popping out in India and China are going to expect the sort of stuff that contributes to climate change. As it is the popular holiday destinations are getting swamped with the nouveau riche Chinese clutching their selfie sticks and flying annoying drones.
The Catholic Church in the West holds a lot of responsibility given its refusal to allow birth control.

TimP
23rd April 2019, 09:53 AM
Yep, there are too many people. Virtually every problem the human race faces is down to over-population. Sure it would be better if cars lasted longer and people didn't throw perfectly good clothes away but then there would be more people out of work. Our way of life has become inherently unsustainable.

Governments and big business continue to plough ahead with automation in search of ever greater profits, putting people out of work as a matter of course, yet no one seems to have tackled the problem of where the spending money will come from once no one works and everyone is on benefits.

Ian
23rd April 2019, 10:13 AM
I take the report with a pinch of salt. If you source your electricity from a renewable supplier, for example. Also electric cars are inherently more efficient than conventional cars (40% or thereabouts). Also it's a German report and the Germans have a vested interest in diesel :D

Ian

Jax
23rd April 2019, 11:06 AM
The basic cause of CO2 is life. So reduce life, do not create so many humans that are going to reproduce and use cars etc.
Even an heir and a spare is prolific breeding and causing unneccessary numbers of humans - If you have more than one child you are the problem.

I'm sure that makes members of the forum with more than one child feel so much better :mad:

Blaming worldwide over population is very simple obvious statement to make however, the real skill would be if you suggested a viable solution. *yes

So what do you suggest ? Worldwide mandatory sterilisation of anyone of child bearing age for a period of years ? Do as the Chinese did and limit parents to one child ? ( A law which I understand has now been revoked ) We would all agree overpopulation is a problem and has been for many years but other than introducing draconian, inhuman laws something that would be virtually impossible to rectify.

For the record, I can state that in your eyes, I am not one of the "problems" having never had children despite us both wanting them so again, in your eyes, I am obviously a valued member of what you consider to be an ideal society.

Jax

Ian
23rd April 2019, 12:22 PM
I'm sure that makes members of the forum with more than one child feel so much better :mad:

Blaming worldwide over population is very simple obvious statement to make however, the real skill would be if you suggested a viable solution. *yes

So what do you suggest ? Worldwide mandatory sterilisation of anyone of child bearing age for a period of years ? Do as the Chinese did and limit parents to one child ? ( A law which I understand has now been revoked ) We would all agree overpopulation is a problem and has been for many years but other than introducing draconian, inhuman laws something that would be virtually impossible to rectify.

For the record, I can state that in your eyes, I am not one of the "problems" having never had children despite us both wanting them so again, in your eyes, I am obviously a valued member of what you consider to be an ideal society.

Jax

I have two children and I am not offended by Derek's observation.

Over population is a fact. How to address it is the challenge. But over-population is just one of many challenges. We all need to react to pollution, global warming and sustainability in general. It could be a positive challenge in the long run.

Ian

TimP
23rd April 2019, 02:10 PM
Blaming worldwide over population is very simple obvious statement to make however, the real skill would be if you suggested a viable solution. *yes

So what do you suggest ? Worldwide mandatory sterilisation of anyone of child bearing age for a period of years ? Do as the Chinese did and limit parents to one child ? ( A law which I understand has now been revoked ) We would all agree overpopulation is a problem and has been for many years but other than introducing draconian, inhuman laws something that would be virtually impossible to rectify.

For the record, I can state that in your eyes, I am not one of the "problems" having never had children despite us both wanting them so again, in your eyes, I am obviously a valued member of what you consider to be an ideal society.

Jax
Generally? Sort out proper contraception, see previous comments re: the Catholic Church

Locally? Stop paying feckless girls to have babies they so obviously can’t afford.

shenstone
23rd April 2019, 02:22 PM
Folk, this discussion is starting to get into areas that can be personally upsetting. Just a reminder to be nice to each other.

DerekW
23rd April 2019, 03:17 PM
It is because serious discussion involving upsetting discussion is not taking place that we are in the clag that we are in.

Jax
23rd April 2019, 03:48 PM
It is because serious discussion involving upsetting discussion is not taking place that we are in the clag that we are in.

Agreed Derek but as past experience proves, serious discussion in the Lounge usually involves slightly heated comments between mature adults resulting in the thread being closed. Probably best to keep to topics that don't involve anything upsetting. *yes

Jax

wornish
23rd April 2019, 03:57 PM
If we can't talk politics and we now can't talk about CO2 emissions then what is allowed in the lounge? Anything but real life seems to be the only answer*yes

Jax
23rd April 2019, 04:14 PM
If we can't talk politics and we now can't talk about CO2 emissions then what is allowed in the lounge? Anything but real life seems to be the only answer*yes

As this is a "family oriented forum" there is always children's toys, baking, fashion, holidays, gardening, family outings, plenty to occupy discussion between like minded members. Anything that doesn't involve the use of "rich language" serious mature discussion, or upsetting topics between mature adults seems allowable :)

How's the weather where you are Dave ? *chr

Jax

OM USer
23rd April 2019, 04:22 PM
...I would also suggest that the reason your electric car has low running (fuel) costs is that government has yet to find a way of applying road fuel duty on electricity used to charge electric cars. Enjoy it whilst you can because at some point the Chancellor will need to collect the money currently being lost to electric and hybrid vehicles....

You need to have your electrcity supply upgraded if you want to fast charge your car. It wouldn't take much to have this fed via a different meter priced at a different rate to include some form of tax. I recall some discussion of banning slow charge vehicles from charging at motorway services because they end up being parked for too long - so older electric vehicles will not be able to travel further than 50 miles or so from "home".

Ian
23rd April 2019, 04:24 PM
It IS possible to have a respectful discussion about serious topics that involve difficult issues, including politics, etc. and where politely agreeing to disagree is good. Unfortunately, we have to step in because people appear to not realise this or forget.

Ian

wornish
23rd April 2019, 04:31 PM
As this is a "family oriented forum" there is always children's toys, baking, fashion, holidays, gardening, family outings, plenty to occupy discussion between like minded members. Anything that doesn't involve the use of "rich language" serious mature discussion, or upsetting topics between mature adults seems allowable :)

How's the weather where you are Dave ? *chr

Jax



Weather is going downhill fast here ;)

Ian
23rd April 2019, 05:00 PM
You need to have your electrcity supply upgraded if you want to fast charge your car. It wouldn't take much to have this fed via a different meter priced at a different rate to include some form of tax. I recall some discussion of banning slow charge vehicles from charging at motorway services because they end up being parked for too long - so older electric vehicles will not be able to travel further than 50 miles or so from "home".

I'm looking to have a wall unit to charge the Tesla at home but the only modification will be an additional breaker to handle 32A of current. That will provide around 7KW of charging and that translates into approximately 20 miles range per hour of charging.

It's not super fast but if you got home at 8PM and left for work the following 7AM you'd have 11 hours of charge, potentially (no pun intended!), or about 220 miles of range charged in that time period. You don't want to use very fast charging all the time as it hastens the rate of capacity degradation.

Some people have had 3-phase electrics wired in for their chargers and this is definitely faster but I would guess there are additional costs.

The nice thing about Teslas is that you can use the Supercharger network and for many owners of older cars it will be free. If you don't have to share the current with another car you could see a 50% (100+ miles depending on your driving and the battery pack fitted) battery charge in as little as 20 minutes.

Let's be honest about road tax and petrol duty - it hasn't been used for funding roads exclusively for a very long time. I certainly expect EVs to be taxed sooner rather than later but I also feel the tax rate should be lower than for more polluting vehicles. New Teslas and other expensive EVs over £40,000 are already taxed over £300 a year thanks to a new luxury car tax that also applies to conventional cars of the same values.

Ian

shenstone
23rd April 2019, 05:16 PM
Its the Soco TC we are gettinghttp://supersoco.co.uk/tc/and if that's successful for the Mrs I am thinking of maybe the new TC Max https://www.avonmotorcycles.co.uk/product/super-soco-tc-max/


When I factored in the cost of new batteries every 4 years or so the savings were not what they suggest, but for going into the city in a non noisy/non emissions manner it seems a really good option

We can charge these from a 13 amp household socket as they have a small fraction of the batteries to charge that an electric car has

Regards
Andy

Otto
23rd April 2019, 05:19 PM
Installing a 3-phase supply could be very costly. Have a look here (https://community.screwfix.com/threads/3-phase-supply-cost.51838/).

MJ224
23rd April 2019, 05:23 PM
My Citroen just charges up on the house mains in about 6 hours, depending how the battery is depleted during the day/night. I guess the bigger the battery the bigger/longer the charge time. If I use a motorway charger with Ecotricity, the charge takes maybe 25 minutes. But cars with bigger batteries might well take longer. I don't know...… My experience is that the fast chargers are the only way to go, slow chargers are just no good if you have to wait 6 hours to charge up, unless its overnight of course.

To answer Nigels POV, yes at the mo I pay 5% VAT on my home electric charge. But right or wrong the government is trying to reduce pollution and CO2, thus is able to give a help with low tax, and even zero road tax. As for wind turbines taking more power to build than the oil system, just think how many wind turbines could be built for the cost of just one 100,000 ton oil tanker, never mind the rest of the system...………….*chr

Don't worry about it, use the system. My mode of transport is as good and probably less polluting than yours....

Serious discussion, I am not trying to belittle your arguments/reasoning...…….but I do have a realistic POV...………...*chr*chr

MJ224
23rd April 2019, 05:28 PM
When I factored in the cost of new batteries every 4 years or so the savings were not what they suggest, but for going into the city in a non noisy/non emissions manner it seems a really good option

We can charge these from a 13 amp household socket as they have a small fraction of the batteries to charge that an electric car has

Regards
Andy

Andy, my batteries are now coming up to 8 years old, and are still good. Re my earlier comment that the original Citroen Zero claimed a range of 93 miles, and now my range is about 50 miles, the manufacturers claim is very likely to be extremely optimistic, as are miles per gallon. I very much doubt the original car was able to do 93 miles, without going on a long down hill trip with a strong following wind...……..*chr

shenstone
23rd April 2019, 05:45 PM
I'll hope for that with our batteries. They are warranted for 3 so I don't want to expect too much

Regards
Andy

Ian
23rd April 2019, 06:14 PM
I'll hope for that with our batteries. They are warranted for 3 so I don't want to expect too much

Regards
Andy

Teslas (well, the Model S we're aiming at) have an 8 year, infinite mile warranty on both the battery pack and drive unit. There is also no limit on the number of owners during the warranty period. So we'll have 5 years remaining.

The new Model 3s batteries I understand are limited to 100,000 miles or 120,000 miles of warranty.

Ian

wornish
23rd April 2019, 09:12 PM
Sorry, but I would not trust Elon Musk to deliver anything he promises. Every time his critics start asking difficult questions he announces some new future planned vehicle and the press just believe him. As for being green, if you don't live within 10 miles of a city do you get a free diesel generator with every Tesla?
He is one of the worlds biggest con men IMHO and seems to get away with it.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/2150/Tesla.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/102538)

wornish
23rd April 2019, 09:30 PM
The experts know best.

https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2019/04/19/earth-day-2019-fifty-years-of-apocalyptic-global-warming-predictions-and-why-people-believe-them-part-1/

Rocknroll59
24th April 2019, 07:36 AM
About to to order a new pair of walking boots, a bit of research shows that the factory producing them throws out quite a bit of pollution and uses a lot of resources so maybe I need to cancel the pair and walk barefoot !! :D:D

Agree here that there are too many people on the planet to sustain the lifestyle that we would like to maintain, so not sure what the answer is, but do remember my Gran telling me many years ago that man will eventually kill himself and she could be right.

Peter

Naughty Nigel
24th April 2019, 07:47 AM
Generally? Sort out proper contraception, see previous comments re: the Catholic Church

Locally? Stop paying feckless girls to have babies they so obviously can’t afford.

Even amongst practicing Roman Catholics I don't think papal teachings on birth control are followed in the way they once were; certainly not in Europe, so I don't think that is a major issue any more; although Islam seems to encourage large families.

On the flip side, perhaps if people listened to the church's teachings about marriage, fidelity and so forth we wouldn't need to pay feckless girls to have babies they so obviously can’t afford (or raise).

Naughty Nigel
24th April 2019, 07:50 AM
Sorry, but I would not trust Elon Musk to deliver anything he promises. Every time his critics start asking difficult questions he announces some new future planned vehicle and the press just believe him. As for being green, if you don't live within 10 miles of a city do you get a free diesel generator with every Tesla?
He is one of the worlds biggest con men IMHO and seems to get away with it.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/2150/Tesla.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/102538)


Elon Musk and Tesla seem to be the new Apple.

wornish
24th April 2019, 07:52 AM
Elon Musk and Tesla seem to be the new Apple.

At least Apple products work. (well most of the time :D)

Naughty Nigel
24th April 2019, 08:07 AM
Also electric cars are inherently more efficient than conventional cars (40% or thereabouts).

Also it's a German report and the Germans have a vested interest in diesel :D

Ian

An electric kettle is almost 100% efficient at the point of use because KW/Hr in = heat out. The newer low power kettles mandated by the EU are actually less efficient than the old 3 KW kettles because there is greater heat loss whilst they are warming up, unless you buy an expensive double walled kettle.

Likewise an electric shower is close to 100% efficient for the same reasons. However, it is also the most expensive way to shower because of the inefficiencies of the electricity supply system. If fact, it costs around four times as much to buy one KW/Hr of electricity compared with the same heat value of natural gas.

Storage batteries are also a long way short of being 100% efficient in terms of power in Vs power out, so whilst the electric motor bit is very efficient the total supply chain efficiency is probably no better than an efficient ICE vehicle.

Given the transient loads on the electricity grid and the remote locations of some motorway service stations it is likely that diesel generators will still be needed to meet demand at peak times. Indeed, I note that one such generator has been installed recently at Killington Lake services to allow electric car charging.

Point taken about the Germans though. :)

Naughty Nigel
24th April 2019, 08:11 AM
At least Apple products work. (well most of the time :D)

Well you really wouldn't want an Apple software update on your four year old Tesla car. Maximum speed would be limited to 40 MPH "to protect the battery" (and no doubt to force you to buy a new one). :rolleyes:

wornish
24th April 2019, 09:15 AM
Well you really wouldn't want an Apple software update on your four year old Tesla car. Maximum speed would be limited to 40 MPH "to protect the battery" (and no doubt to force you to buy a new one). :rolleyes:

Absolutely true. We can't have people using 4-year-old technology got to have the latest version.

Jax
24th April 2019, 09:48 AM
Given the transient loads on the electricity grid and the remote locations of some motorway service stations it is likely that diesel generators will still be needed to meet demand at peak times. Indeed, I note that one such generator has been installed recently at Killington Lake services to allow electric car charging.

I understand now. *yes

We get rid of all the diesel cars in favour of the less polluting electric cars, but then need diesel generators to enable us to charge them. :rolleyes:

Jax

wornish
24th April 2019, 10:02 AM
I understand now. *yes

We get rid of all the diesel cars in favour of the less polluting electric cars, but then need diesel generators to enable us to charge them. :rolleyes:

Jax

Yes, that's the idea. You also have to wait for at least an hour while you recharge your car. So you can spend more money in the Motorway Services playing on the video games.

Jax
24th April 2019, 10:25 AM
Yes, that's the idea. You also have to wait for at least an hour while you recharge your car. So you can spend more money in the Motorway Services playing on the video games.


Looks like the only answer to a true non polluting vehicle is a cycle rickshaw but that would involve purchasing protein additives and steroids for SWMBO.

Maybe not such a good idea after all :)

Jax

Ian
24th April 2019, 10:34 AM
Trust is a very important fact of life. But even more important is knowledge and how that knowledge is used.

Here is a fact about owning a Tesla; owners are not expected or encouraged to use the free Superchargers as their main energy source. They are provided to enable worry-free long-distance journeys. So Superchargers are strategically located to provide top-ups.

With the right electricity deal, overnight charging at home can be as low as around 5p per KWH. On a Tesla Model S 85D, which is a large car, that computes to a realistic 2 pence per mile - even less if you drive economically. A 50MPG diesel costs around 11 pence per mile in fuel.

That said, you don't buy a Tesla to save money on fuel! But it helps.

Elon Musk is a rather strange man but he has definitely delivered a great deal of his promises. I have never bought into the idea of hero worship with the likes of Musk, Jobs, Zuckerberg, etc. I dislike Apple's closed in attitude towards their products but I don't think you can apply that to cars.

I can still charge a Tesla with pretty much any public charging facility, buy tyres and other consumables from 3rd parties, etc. I even don't much like the new Tesla Model 3 with its minimalist dashboard and lack of a hatchback.

Ian

Sorry, but I would not trust Elon Musk to deliver anything he promises. Every time his critics start asking difficult questions he announces some new future planned vehicle and the press just believe him. As for being green, if you don't live within 10 miles of a city do you get a free diesel generator with every Tesla?
He is one of the worlds biggest con men IMHO and seems to get away with it.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/2150/Tesla.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/102538)

sapper
24th April 2019, 10:38 AM
Somebody recently said that the private motor car is a failed 20th century experiment which should be scrapped. I tend to agree. Rather than making pollution cleaner we really need to find ways of polluting less.

This really is part of the answer. Less cars on the roads can only be a benefit.

But of course our political masters don't look long term, just long enough to get in next time.

Ian
24th April 2019, 10:39 AM
Installing a 3-phase supply could be very costly. Have a look here (https://community.screwfix.com/threads/3-phase-supply-cost.51838/).

We live in a typical suburban road with 1930s three bed semis and my neighbour across the road did have a three-phase supply installed as he had some metal working gear in his workshop. That was probably 15-20 years ago.

No idea how much that cost him though. He's not around anymore, sadly - lovely guy.

Ian

Ian
24th April 2019, 10:54 AM
The experts know best.

https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2019/04/19/earth-day-2019-fifty-years-of-apocalyptic-global-warming-predictions-and-why-people-believe-them-part-1/

I am reminded of the anecdotal frog in a pot (or something similar) on a stove - the temperature slowly rises and the frog isn't alarmed until it's too late.

Very often, skepticism is useful. However, when we are looking at the long term health of our planet and, therefore, the future well-being of our children and grandchildren, surely we should take warnings about climate change and other types of environmental pollution seriously?

My personal opinion is that analysts can play with the data all they like, but it's plain to me that our winters are more mild, Spring happens several weeks earlier than it used to, sea levels have noticeably risen in low-lying areas, glaciers have retreated significantly, all kinds of pollution are evidently affecting us a lot more and so on.

We can't go on like this.

Ian

Ian
24th April 2019, 10:57 AM
Sorry, but I would not trust Elon Musk to deliver anything he promises. Every time his critics start asking difficult questions he announces some new future planned vehicle and the press just believe him. As for being green, if you don't live within 10 miles of a city do you get a free diesel generator with every Tesla?
He is one of the worlds biggest con men IMHO and seems to get away with it.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/2150/Tesla.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/102538)

Another thing, while Superchargers are exclusive to Tesla owners (and owners of newer Teslas have to pay to use them), Tesla also produces public charging points that most EVs can charge from.

Ian

Ian
24th April 2019, 11:01 AM
Even amongst practicing Roman Catholics I don't think papal teachings on birth control are followed in the way they once were; certainly not in Europe, so I don't think that is a major issue any more; although Islam seems to encourage large families.

On the flip side, perhaps if people listened to the church's teachings about marriage, fidelity and so forth we wouldn't need to pay feckless girls to have babies they so obviously can’t afford (or raise).

My mother's family are Filipino Catholics and big families are still encouraged there.

I'm not religious but I'm not anti-religion, in general. Sadly, religion is the main source of human conflict.

Ian

Jax
24th April 2019, 11:07 AM
Purely as a point of interest from someone who has never considered purchasing an electric car :

With a conventionally fueled car, if, for whatever reason you run out of fuel, a friendly RAC or AA man or even a hitch to the nearest filling station with a can usually solves the problem. What happens with an electric vehicle in similar circumstances ?

Jax

Ian
24th April 2019, 11:12 AM
An electric kettle is almost 100% efficient at the point of use because KW/Hr in = heat out. The newer low power kettles mandated by the EU are actually less efficient than the old 3 KW kettles because there is greater heat loss whilst they are warming up, unless you buy an expensive double walled kettle.

Likewise an electric shower is close to 100% efficient for the same reasons. However, it is also the most expensive way to shower because of the inefficiencies of the electricity supply system. If fact, it costs around four times as much to buy one KW/Hr of electricity compared with the same heat value of natural gas.

Storage batteries are also a long way short of being 100% efficient in terms of power in Vs power out, so whilst the electric motor bit is very efficient the total supply chain efficiency is probably no better than an efficient ICE vehicle.

Given the transient loads on the electricity grid and the remote locations of some motorway service stations it is likely that diesel generators will still be needed to meet demand at peak times. Indeed, I note that one such generator has been installed recently at Killington Lake services to allow electric car charging.

Point taken about the Germans though. :)

One conclusion I have come to in reading your post is that we should not skimp on the cost of a new kettle and so I would definitely buy one that was higher in its efficiency rating. We are probably all guilty of sometimes over-filling kettles, too.

The issue of supply for the unfolding EV generation is a serious challenge. Diesel generators at service stations for this purpose is clearly unacceptable. I would hope this would be simply a temporary measure at that location because a technical fault there.

However, as I pointed out in a separate post, most EVs will be charged at home. Owners living in flats and other dwellings with no possibility of hooking up from the household will have their own challenges of course.

My rough estimate is that our domestic electricity consumption will probably double once we get our EV, though the bulk of that will be overnight.

Ian

Jax
24th April 2019, 11:15 AM
I'm not religious but I'm not anti-religion, in general. Sadly, religion is the main source of human conflict.

Ian

I am also not religious but tolerant of the beliefs of others. I do feel that often conflict and atrocities are carried out "In The Name Of Religion" by those who are not truly religious but simply evil human beings who need a label to justify their actions.

How far Off Topic can this thread get :D

Jax

Ian
24th April 2019, 11:21 AM
This really is part of the answer. Less cars on the roads can only be a benefit.

But of course our political masters don't look long term, just long enough to get in next time.

There is some evidence that the trend towards car ownership is in decline - at least here in the UK. The modernisation of car hire and taxi services will also be a factor. There are already care sharing schemes where you can let a stranger use your car for a fee when you aren't using it. Uber and the like have made private hire services much more popular as well.

Elon Musk believes in a fully autonomous future for cars, so you could order a car for the day or whatever and it drives itself to you and drives away again when you have finished with it. I'm inclined to think this will take quite a bit longer than many of the predicions, but it will come eventually.

In fact Tesla have just announced all theur cars currently in production have the latest higher-performance hardware suitable for fully autonomous driving.

I'm rather comforted by the fact the fact that when I'm too old to drive a conventional car safely, cars will almost certainly be smart enough that I will still be able to use them!

Ian

Ian
24th April 2019, 11:25 AM
I am also not religious but tolerant of the beliefs of others. I do feel that often conflict and atrocities are carried out "In The Name Of Religion" by those who are not truly religious but simply evil human beings who need a label to justify their actions.

How far Off Topic can this thread get :D

Jax

I fully support that sentiment (religious atrocities in the 'name' of religion, rather than religion per se) but I would like to see all religions work harder and together to neutralise the fundamentalist evil acted out in their names. And by that I don't mean use war against war.

Ian

wornish
24th April 2019, 11:26 AM
I am also not religious but tolerant of the beliefs of others. I do feel that often conflict and atrocities are carried out "In The Name Of Religion" by those who are not truly religious but simply evil human beings who need a label to justify their actions.

How far Off Topic can this thread get :D

Jax

I was having the same thought about the thread going off topic - it shows how the human mind creates linkages.

Jax
24th April 2019, 11:29 AM
I'm rather comforted by the fact the fact that when I'm too old to drive a conventional car safely, cars will almost certainly be smart enough that I will still be able to use them!

Ian

I could be approaching that situation rather sooner than I imagined. Given the lack of Smart Cars at the moment I will possibly be relying on the driving skills of SWMBO or paying for taxis. Neither of these two options provide much comfort to me.

Jax

Ian
24th April 2019, 11:31 AM
Purely as a point of interest from someone who has never considered purchasing an electric car :

With a conventionally fueled car, if, for whatever reason you run out of fuel, a friendly RAC or AA man or even a hitch to the nearest filling station with a can usually solves the problem. What happens with an electric vehicle in similar circumstances ?

Jax

There are a lot of public charging points around that the recovery service could transport you to and of course you can plug in to a standard socket, though it would take several hours to get a handful of miles charged up.

It's worth noting that most EVs have quite sophisticated means of monitoring electrical usage and so predict realistic range, so the idea is that you shouldn't get into this situation in the first place :D

With Teslas you can also plan a route using the car's own nav system with Superchargers strategically located on the way. It can even estimate which Superchargers you should top up at along your route.

Ian

Ian
24th April 2019, 11:39 AM
Well you really wouldn't want an Apple software update on your four year old Tesla car. Maximum speed would be limited to 40 MPH "to protect the battery" (and no doubt to force you to buy a new one). :rolleyes:

Very amusing but that reality with Teslas is that they constantly receive software updates and this means functions previously unavailable have been unlocked over time and the cars perform better.

Like computers and phones, the hardware does also change. The three-year-old car we're expecting to buy will be the last of the 'first-generation' semi-autonomous cars, with radar and proximity sensing and computation from the Israeli MobileEye company. Since the end of 2016 Tesla have used significantly more powerful NVIDIA computing in conjunction with more external sensors and cameras. Just in the last few weeks Tesla has upgraded the computational power again to an in-house developed module that is apparently over 20x more powerful than the NVIDIA hardware.

Ian

Ian
24th April 2019, 11:41 AM
I was having the same thought about the thread going off topic - it shows how the human mind creates linkages.

If everyone seems content with the conversation then there isn't a problem, is there?

Ian

wornish
24th April 2019, 11:46 AM
Very amusing but that reality with Teslas is that they constantly receive software updates and this means functions previously unavailable have been unlocked over time and the cars perform better.

Like computers and phones, the hardware does also change. The three-year-old car we're expecting to buy will be the last of the 'first-generation' semi-autonomous cars, with radar and proximity sensing and computation from the Israeli MobileEye company. Since the end of 2016 Tesla have used significantly more powerful NVIDIA computing in conjunction with more external sensors and cameras. Just in the last few weeks Tesla has upgraded the computational power again to an in-house developed module that is apparently over 20x more powerful than the NVIDIA hardware.

Ian


I understand you can download and update the software the car uses - again it takes a certain amount of trust though to update something that your life depends on, but I guess its the same in a conventional car the garage can and does update the firmware.

Is the compute module itself an upgradeable item if you have an older car?

Ian
24th April 2019, 11:57 AM
Absolutely true. We can't have people using 4-year-old technology got to have the latest version.

On the outside, the three year old Tesla we are looking at buying is discernably the same as today's showroom models, with only reasonably subtle styling changes. In fact the interiors are almost identical.

But the smart hardware has changed a great deal. 2013-2016 cars have one front facing radar and one front-facing camera plus ultrasonic sensors all around.

These cars can auto-steer on roads with clear lane markings and also automatically maintain a safe distance from the car in front. You can also change lane and overtake simply by using the indicator. They can also auto-park, can be driven at a walking pace from a parked position using an app - this is called 'Summon'. Some obstacle-avoidance capability is also provided as well as blind-spot warning. Speed limit adherence is also provided.

Late 2016 - early 2019 cares have a lot more computing power and more sensors, including cameras that cover a 360 degree view. These can be used as security cameras as well. These cars can do a lot more in the way of autonomous functions and will work better on roads that are not so well defined by road markings. Even so, the software is still not mature, so owners of these cars can expect a lot of additional functionality and performance improvements.

2019 cars are now said to have enough computing and sensory performance for full autonomous driving but that doesn't mean they are autonomous yet - a lot of software development work will be needed to enable that, not to mention localisation and type approval.

Ian

Ian
24th April 2019, 12:04 PM
I understand you can download and update the software the car uses - again it takes a certain amount of trust though to update something that your life depends on, but I guess its the same in a conventional car the garage can and does update the firmware.

Is the compute module itself an upgradeable item if you have an older car?

The 2016 car we're looking at can't be physically upgraded. I do look a bit enviously at the newer cars but to be honest the 2016 car has enough automation for now!

For late 2016-early 2019 cars there was a CPU upgrade and it has been possible for earlier cars in this time period to be upgraded to the later spec. computing module. I'm not sure about the very latest upgrade only announced this week.

At this stage you are still supposed to be in full control of the car and should be holding the steering wheel.

Ian

Naughty Nigel
24th April 2019, 12:10 PM
With the right electricity deal, overnight charging at home can be as low as around 5p per KWH. On a Tesla Model S 85D, which is a large car, that computes to a realistic 2 pence per mile - even less if you drive economically. A 50MPG diesel costs around 11 pence per mile in fuel.

Ian

I don't dispute your figures Ian, but if you were to take the road fuel duty and 20% VAT off of Diesel the costs would be much closer.

Presumably at some point we will move away from fuel duties to 'road pricing' or similar so that all vehicles contribute to the public purse; at which point the tax advantage currently enjoyed by electric vehicles will evaporate.

Also, be careful when calculating electricity costs as you will need to put much more power into the storage batteries than you will ever get out. This is very different to conventional fuel tank where you expect to get the same volume of fuel out as you put in. There are also losses involved in [electrically] heating the storage batteries to the required temperature.

Regarding off-peak electricity; there are two systems in use at present. The old Economy 7 and now Economy 10 tariffs provide cheaper electricity during set off-peak periods overnight, and in the middle of the day. However, I recently discovered that off-peak periods vary by electricity region, so the London area, for example, will have different off-peak times to other parts of the country. This is because of the demands of large industrial users in those areas.

The second system uses 'smart chargers' and other 'smart' devices that only draw power when the grid is in surplus. This works by detecting when the grid frequency is exactly 50 Hz or above. This is much preferred by NG for obvious reasons, but depending on the overall load, weather conditions and so forth there is no guarantee that you will be able to charge your car at any given time, although the grid must, by law, average 50 Hz over a 24 Hour day except in exceptional circumstances.

Having read all of the interesting viewpoints expressed above I should perhaps remind everyone that it wasn't so long ago we were all told to switch to diesel to save the planet. *yes

wornish
24th April 2019, 12:42 PM
The product marketing view of a product's lifecycle was defined by Geoffrey.A.Moore in the early 1990s.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/2150/Chasm.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/102545)

Many products don't get across the chasm and enter the mainstream.

At best I would suggest electric cars are entering the early adopter stage.

I was in the late majority of Diesel users, and now with hindsight, I wish I had waited.

Ian
24th April 2019, 12:54 PM
The product marketing view of a product's lifecycle was defined by Geoffrey.A.Moore in the early 1990s.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/2150/Chasm.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/102545)

Many products don't get across the chasm and enter the mainstream.

At best I would suggest electric cars are entering the early adopter stage.

I was in the late majority of Diesel users, and now with hindsight, I wish I had waited.

I've hired diesels and Julia had a diesel company car for a while but I have never owned a diesel. The amount of smoke produced by even new diesels put me off and even the high-tech diesels with particulate filters seemed to be problematic from owner-feedback. The fact that they have needed more frequent oil changes was also a put-off.

It's quite clear to me that the internal combustion engine for general vehicular power is on the way out. It will take a long time, but electricity is the future. But I also conceded that it will also take time for electric cars and the infrastructure to reach peak efficiency. However, you need to start somewhere!

Ian

Ian
24th April 2019, 01:47 PM
As I said, you don't buy a Tesla - indeed most EVs currently - to save money; the actual cost of EVs for most of us means the total cost of ownership is higher than a conventional car.

But the 'fuel' cost is definitely a significant saving over a conventional diesel and even more so over a petrol car. The petrol/diesel in your car has to also power the airconditioning, lights, power steering. Combustion engine efficiency is also affected by environmental temperature and atmospheric pressure (altitude) and even humidity.

The battery storage efficiency issue is a good point but in practice I understand it's not that significant.

Certainly, there will be regional differences in terms of electrical supply cost - the same applies to petrol and diesel pricing.

The future for having a smart electricity supply regime is very interesting; automatically buying and storing (in your car, for example) electricity when it's cheap and even selling back to the grid when it's expensive can't come soon enough in my book. This will also make solar and home-battery systems even more attractive as well as helping the electricity supply infrastructure work better.

Saving £200-300 on the road tax for an EV is a nice bonus but not a deal breaker if it comes back, is it? The same applies to the Congestion Charge in London.

The diesel argument was simplistic; diesel is more energy dense per litre than petrol. But particulates and Ntrous oxide pollution were not factored in. And to be honest neither were the price premiums of diesel cars over petrol ones. At the time I was frustrated by the move to diesel just at a time when companies like Toyota were starting to demonstrate that petrol engines could be made significantly more efficient while remaining cleaner.

It's very clear that EVs are more expensive and the savings in running them will not fully compensate for the extra purchase costs. However, apart from wanting to make a contribution to the ecology effort, my wife is very keen on the Tesla's abilities to make driving safer and more interesting. We're unashamedly also making a rare self-indulgent purchase of an expensive luxury car that also has a lot of performance :)

Ian

I don't dispute your figures Ian, but if you were to take the road fuel duty and 20% VAT off of Diesel the costs would be much closer.

Presumably at some point we will move away from fuel duties to 'road pricing' or similar so that all vehicles contribute to the public purse; at which point the tax advantage currently enjoyed by electric vehicles will evaporate.

Also, be careful when calculating electricity costs as you will need to put much more power into the storage batteries than you will ever get out. This is very different to conventional fuel tank where you expect to get the same volume of fuel out as you put in. There are also losses involved in [electrically] heating the storage batteries to the required temperature.

Regarding off-peak electricity; there are two systems in use at present. The old Economy 7 and now Economy 10 tariffs provide cheaper electricity during set off-peak periods overnight, and in the middle of the day. However, I recently discovered that off-peak periods vary by electricity region, so the London area, for example, will have different off-peak times to other parts of the country. This is because of the demands of large industrial users in those areas.

The second system uses 'smart chargers' and other 'smart' devices that only draw power when the grid is in surplus. This works by detecting when the grid frequency is exactly 50 Hz or above. This is much preferred by NG for obvious reasons, but depending on the overall load, weather conditions and so forth there is no guarantee that you will be able to charge your car at any given time, although the grid must, by law, average 50 Hz over a 24 Hour day except in exceptional circumstances.

Having read all of the interesting viewpoints expressed above I should perhaps remind everyone that it wasn't so long ago we were all told to switch to diesel to save the planet. *yes

Rocknroll59
24th April 2019, 01:53 PM
I've never owned a diesel that 'smoked'...in fact the diesel I currently own is less polluting than the current petrol cars, and having spoken to many engineers and 'in trade' friends etc the current crop are less polluting than ever.

As for the quote earlier about deaths due to diesel cars, has anyone seen that on a death certificate? I don't think you can actually attribute that as a true 'fact'...the general state of the air that we breathe is made up of many factors as someone living in a city/industrial environment that dies of conditions due to air quality faces a totally different air than someone in a rural country area that dies of the same condition.

Having a friend who worked in the Elec Generating industry recently retired the grid system would not cope at all with an influx of EV's, in fact we would need to produce a much larger amount than we do at present to even sustain a 20% rise and where is that coming from?? Not many new generators are in the pipeline and the cost is getting larger and larger bourne by the user as is normal so elec costs will rise... as for hooking up when on a journey well judging by the amount that would be needed for the sheer scale of numbers and length of time to charge you could be spending more time off the road on your journey than on it. If you also happen to live in a street where your car is park on the road what chance of a trailing lead which could well cause accidents from your house to your car ?? I think the jump to electric is slightly more premature than we all think.

Naughty Nigel
24th April 2019, 01:53 PM
We're unashamedly also making a rare self-indulgent purchase of an expensive luxury car that also has a lot of performance :)

Ian

Enjoy it! :)

Naughty Nigel
24th April 2019, 02:32 PM
I've never owned a diesel that 'smoked'...in fact the diesel I currently own is less polluting than the current petrol cars, and having spoken to many engineers and 'in trade' friends etc the current crop are less polluting than ever.



Agreed. And given the opportunity and incentive I have no doubt that engineers could redesign ICE vehicles so that they became significantly cleaner and more efficient than they are now.

The problem at present is that cars at all price points are essentially throwaway items built in the shortest possible time at the lowest possible cost. We need to move away from this model to newer, more efficient designs where time, effort and money are spent optimising performance and emissions. An added benefit could be greater longevity.

As an example, remapping engines alone can significantly reduce fuel consumption whilst providing more performance. Optimising combustion chamber parameters on an engine to engine basis would yield similar additional benefits.

Think if every vehicle on the road used 25% less fuel and created 25% less pollution? But the motor manufacturers won't do this because it would mean spending more time on the production line rather than flashing them with 'one size fits all' ECU software.

If you think this isn't possible please explain why my 3.0 Litre V6 twin turbocharged, two ton Jag uses significantly less fuel than our 1.4 litre one ton Corsa? Friends who have had their Jags remapped talk of even better fuel economy in addition to the extra power.


As for the quote earlier about deaths due to diesel cars, has anyone seen that on a death certificate? I don't think you can actually attribute that as a true 'fact'...

I strongly suspect that road vehicles are a convenient and easily taxed scapegoat. There are many other sources of pollution including diesel powered trains and construction vehicles, not to mention domestic heating systems which generate a lot of nitrous oxides.


Having a friend who worked in the Elec Generating industry recently retired the grid system would not cope at all with an influx of EV's, in fact we would need to produce a much larger amount than we do at present to even sustain a 20% rise and where is that coming from??

Easy. Diesel generators! *yes

Rocknroll59
24th April 2019, 02:42 PM
True..and of course multi national profit greedy companies are guilty as much as any..

Remapping engines..well of course that can be done, but its the EU (lets not go down that route :eek:) who stipulate what engines should be set at when they leave the factory...

When my car goes by the 3 year warranty I intend to remap it asap. Better economy and even less emissions. :D

The throw away society has applied to far too much in the last 30 odd years...

Peter

Graham_of_Rainham
24th April 2019, 02:45 PM
So: To drive up to Scotland, I will need to tow a Diesel generator...

Perhaps the answer will be exchangeable battery packs, that are solar panel/wind turbine charged.

:confused:

wornish
24th April 2019, 02:52 PM
So: To drive up to Scotland, I will need to tow a Diesel generator...

Perhaps the answer will be exchangeable battery packs, that are solar panel/wind turbine charged.

:confused:

Why not fasten a wind-powered generator on the car roof so it recharges the batteries as you drive along. Saves you having to stop to recharge every couple of hundred miles.

There may be a fault in this proposal but don't tell anyone:D

Rocknroll59
24th April 2019, 02:56 PM
That's a fantastic idea the faster you travel the quicker the turbine will go and the faster it will recharge, it wouldn't need to be on the roof, it could be at the front where the radiator would be !! *yes can we patent that now?

Graham_of_Rainham
24th April 2019, 03:27 PM
I like the idea of an electromagnet on the front, to get a tow from trucks on the motorway... :D

OM USer
24th April 2019, 03:41 PM
You will be able to tell from my question that I have yet to look into the ownership of an electric vehicle but how does one pay for charging at the charging points that have appeared in the mororway services, supermarket car parks, and roadside charging bays? Is it just put your credit card in? Do you need an account? Do you need a different account account depending who installed/runs the charging point? Do you pay for the the amount of charge (KWH) pumped into the car or the hookup time? Can you set a timer, price limit, capacity limit (i.e. take my battery to 80%) so you do not pay more than you want to but "fill up" just enough to get you home? Does the price vary at different charging points and how does that compare with charging at home? Can you charge at any point if you have the right adaptor to hand and how many adaptors would you need?

MJ224
24th April 2019, 03:56 PM
You will be able to tell from my question that I have yet to look into the ownership of an electric vehicle but how does one pay for charging at the charging points that have appeared in the mororway services, supermarket car parks, and roadside charging bays? Is it just put your credit card in? Do you need an account? Do you need a different account account depending who installed/runs the charging point? Do you pay for the the amount of charge (KWH) pumped into the car or the hookup time? Can you set a timer, price limit, capacity limit (i.e. take my battery to 80%) so you do not pay more than you want to but "fill up" just enough to get you home? Does the price vary at different charging points and how does that compare with charging at home? Can you charge at any point if you have the right adaptor to hand and how many adaptors would you need?

As far as I have experienced, you have to subscribe to a supplier who has electric pumps. I use Ecotricity, who have charging points at all (most of) motorway service stations. I also use Ecotricity to supply my home with Electric and gas. There are several suppliers, at some supermarkets, again you have to subscribe to them . All a bit bitty, some suppliers have different connectors, which you can buy.

Personally, I almost always charge at home. If I want to go further, I rely on the motorway Ecotricity. They have the fast chargers, which charge up the vehicle in less that 30 minutes. I used to subscribe to a supplier who had chargers at Asda. But on the few occasions that I tried to charge, the charger was out of use...……

As a user of a "small EV", my daily mileage is almost always within the initial daily charge, so rarely use these charging points. I still have my RX8 just in case I need to do longer journeys...…….:)

Ian
24th April 2019, 04:00 PM
So: To drive up to Scotland, I will need to tow a Diesel generator...

Perhaps the answer will be exchangeable battery packs, that are solar panel/wind turbine charged.

:confused:

Tesla designed the Model S with hot-swappable battery packs in mind. It can be done in 5 minutes. A service for doing this was trialled in California but it appears that owners didn't find it necessary.

There are enough Superchargers on the way to and in Scotland to alleviate 'range anxiety' :D

With careful driving the 85D model Tesla we're aiming for could, theoretically, do over 300 miles on one charge. But you wouldn't be driving very fast :)

Ian

Ian
24th April 2019, 04:02 PM
As far as I have experienced, you have to subscribe to a supplier who has electric pumps. I use Ecotricity, who have charging points at all (most of) motorway service stations. I also use Ecotricity to supply my home with Electric and gas. There are several suppliers, at some supermarkets, again you have to subscribe to them . All a bit bitty, some suppliers have different connectors, which you can buy.

Personally, I almost always charge at home. If I want to go further, I rely on the motorway Ecotricity. They have the fast chargers, which charge up the vehicle in less that 30 minutes. I used to subscribe to a supplier who had chargers at Asda. But on the few occasions that I tried to charge, the charger was out of use...……

As a user of a "small EV", my daily mileage is almost always within the initial daily charge, so rarely use these charging points. I still have my RX8 just in case I need to do longer journeys...…….:)

An electric RX8 conversion - now that would be nice! :D

Ian

MJ224
24th April 2019, 04:04 PM
Tesla designed the Model S with hot-swappable battery packs in mind. It can be done in 5 minutes. A service for doing this was trialled in California but it appears that owners didn't find it necessary.

There are enough Superchargers on the way to and in Scotland to alleviate 'range anxiety' :D

With careful driving the 85D model Tesla we're aiming for could, theoretically, do over 300 miles on one charge. But you wouldn't be driving very fast :)

Ian

And not too much use of heaters or air conditioning...……...*chr

Ian
24th April 2019, 04:11 PM
You will be able to tell from my question that I have yet to look into the ownership of an electric vehicle but how does one pay for charging at the charging points that have appeared in the mororway services, supermarket car parks, and roadside charging bays? Is it just put your credit card in? Do you need an account? Do you need a different account account depending who installed/runs the charging point? Do you pay for the the amount of charge (KWH) pumped into the car or the hookup time? Can you set a timer, price limit, capacity limit (i.e. take my battery to 80%) so you do not pay more than you want to but "fill up" just enough to get you home? Does the price vary at different charging points and how does that compare with charging at home? Can you charge at any point if you have the right adaptor to hand and how many adaptors would you need?

My understanding is that you would sign up to one of the competing EV charging networks. The service will probably be managed by an app, so no need to bring any money with you. You would be able to control how much charging is required. Yes, prices do vary but I think pricing for one network is the same nationally, unlike petrol stations. It's normally more expensive to charge than at home with a decent domestic supply deal tailored for EV owners.

I'm sure the unit of charge would be KWH. The vast majority of charging stations are now using the standard Type 2 fitting, so users of older Type 1 ports would use an adapter.

For me, the Tesla itself would be endowed with free lifetime Supercharging at similar locations (motorway services, etc. and even lower speed charging at some restaurants, hotels and other destinations).

Ian

Ian
24th April 2019, 04:14 PM
I like the idea of an electromagnet on the front, to get a tow from trucks on the motorway... :D

A guy in Denmark I think made a video of a long range attempt using his Tesla and he used slipstreaming behind lorries to increase the range :) It's easy to do in a Tesla because you can set the car to maintain a preset distance behind the vehicle in front of you.

Ian

Otto
24th April 2019, 04:50 PM
Why not fasten a wind-powered generator on the car roof so it recharges the batteries as you drive along. Saves you having to stop to recharge every couple of hundred miles.


Better still, use a sail!!

MJ224
24th April 2019, 05:20 PM
Better still, use a sail!!

5 knots then...…………..better bring lunch...*chr

Zuiko
24th April 2019, 06:18 PM
I understand now. *yes

We get rid of all the diesel cars in favour of the less polluting electric cars, but then need diesel generators to enable us to charge them. :rolleyes:

Jax

Which brings us to the real issue. It's not a matter of which fuel we are going to use in future, it's how much we are going to cut our annual mileage. We need more people working from home, online business meetings rather than face to face, holidays closer to home and definitely not abroad, more trade with our own continent and less with the rest of the world, more public transport and generally less car ownership. None of us are going to like it but we need radical action and we need it now!

Ian
24th April 2019, 07:21 PM
Which brings us to the real issue. It's not a matter of which fuel we are going to use in future, it's how much we are going to cut our annual mileage. We need more people working from home, online business meetings rather than face to face, holidays closer to home and definitely not abroad, more trade with our own continent and less with the rest of the world, more public transport and generally less car ownership. None of us are going to like it but we need radical action and we need it now!

I haven't commuted to work more than a couple of miles since the late 80s and I work at home now. However, I do travel a lot because of work. I'm not sure the lack of commuting miles is adequate compensation!

Like electric cars, commercial passenger aircraft will eventually be electric, but it will take several decades, minimum.

Fingers crossed for fusion power!

Ian

Keith-369
24th April 2019, 07:27 PM
Public transport is all very well .... providing it takes us where we want to go and at a reasonable price.

To go on a bus to our nearest postcode town costs £4.50 .... for a distance of just five miles.

To get to our nearest supermarket would be a nightmare on the bus.

In our area at least, the bus routes are abysmal, having to go into town before moving on to where we actually want to go (that's if a bus goes near enough.)

Public transport, or the lack of it, has actually driven (pun intended) people onto the roads in cars.

Jax
24th April 2019, 07:29 PM
Which brings us to the real issue. It's not a matter of which fuel we are going to use in future, it's how much we are going to cut our annual mileage. We need more people working from home, online business meetings rather than face to face, holidays closer to home and definitely not abroad, more trade with our own continent and less with the rest of the world, more public transport and generally less car ownership. None of us are going to like it but we need radical action and we need it now!

Agreed, all very valid points John. *yes

I feel however, given the average selfish, NIMBY attitude of the population, it would require drastic legislation to achieve and be an impossible voluntary task. When you consider the current Parliamentary fiasco, getting agreement on such as the above would take years, if ever, to implement and no doubt be too late. I don't profess to have any answers but, as you, I feel urgent action is needed sooner than later.

Jax

Naughty Nigel
24th April 2019, 08:14 PM
Which brings us to the real issue. It's not a matter of which fuel we are going to use in future, it's how much we are going to cut our annual mileage. We need more people working from home, online business meetings rather than face to face, holidays closer to home and definitely not abroad, more trade with our own continent and less with the rest of the world, more public transport and generally less car ownership. None of us are going to like it but we need radical action and we need it now!

It isn't just business meetings either. Where is the justification for thousands of delegates and other hangers-on flying to the furthest points of the globe to attend climate change summits?

Then there is the showbiz set who fly to climate change protests in their private jets, but drive a Toyota Pious to show they care about the environment. For that matter, where is the justification for 60,000 people flying thousands of miles to watch 22 overpaid prima donnas kicking a ball around? You see more on the telly!

Rocknroll59
24th April 2019, 08:53 PM
Which brings us to the real issue. It's not a matter of which fuel we are going to use in future, it's how much we are going to cut our annual mileage. We need more people working from home, online business meetings rather than face to face, holidays closer to home and definitely not abroad, more trade with our own continent and less with the rest of the world, more public transport and generally less car ownership. None of us are going to like it but we need radical action and we need it now!
__________________
I like the thought John, but here they have proposed a new 'village' with 2500 houses, no thought given to public transport (there won't be any apparently) as a fair few will be social housing so how do they get into town to buy stuff and to the local supermarkets?. It will take a radical rethink by all our politicians to stop people using their cars and flying abroad. The French did at least one thing right they didn't shut their railway system down and you can't fly inter city easily in France they built more railways and connected them to the existing network, we have so much to learn.

wornish
24th April 2019, 09:11 PM
The nearest bus service to my house is a 3 mile walk away! Same for the nearest shop.

I could always use click and deliver from my nearest supermarket I suppose, they do however seem to drive diesel delivery vans, so that's a non-starter.

I did manage to work from home for over 10 years from the mid-1990's managing people in the USA, Europe and Asia using this thing called the internet which politicians might catch on to - one day!

That said there isn't much sun in Cheshire and I do need a summer holiday now and again. Its a long long train ride to the Algarve or anywhere warm from home. Also, last I checked they don't grow bananas here so guess we will need more cargo ships from the Caribbean, oh no more diesel.

Habits need to change but some things need to stay.

Naughty Nigel
24th April 2019, 09:50 PM
Which brings us to the real issue. It's not a matter of which fuel we are going to use in future, it's how much we are going to cut our annual mileage. We need more people working from home, online business meetings rather than face to face, holidays closer to home and definitely not abroad, more trade with our own continent and less with the rest of the world, more public transport and generally less car ownership. None of us are going to like it but we need radical action and we need it now!
__________________
I like the thought John, but here they have proposed a new 'village' with 2500 houses, no thought given to public transport (there won't be any apparently) as a fair few will be social housing so how do they get into town to buy stuff and to the local supermarkets?. It will take a radical rethink by all our politicians to stop people using their cars and flying abroad. The French did at least one thing right they didn't shut their railway system down and you can't fly inter city easily in France they built more railways and connected them to the existing network, we have so much to learn.

Many of the new houses are so small, and have such small gardens that residents need to escape in their spare time. How else can you do it other than driving in situations like these?

Ricoh
24th April 2019, 10:55 PM
I had the wood burner going tonight. But it's carbon neutral, right!

Naughty Nigel
24th April 2019, 11:05 PM
I had the wood burner going tonight. But it's carbon neutral, right!

Yes, right, and they smell gorgeous, but wood burners create irritant particulates, apparently. :(

Ricoh
24th April 2019, 11:18 PM
Yes, right, and they smell gorgeous, but wood burners create irritant particulates, apparently. :(
It's ok I keep the stove door shut, only opening to chuck some wood in as and when necessary. :)

Ricoh
24th April 2019, 11:20 PM
Can we talk Steam Trains next? Love 'em, bring them back please.

MJ224
25th April 2019, 06:28 AM
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40727411523_c21905a856_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/253WCwp)

The whole Hog (https://flic.kr/p/253WCwp)

by Mark Johnson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/133688957@N08/), on Flickr*chr

Can we talk Steam Trains next? Love 'em, bring them back please.

Go the whole hog, and bring back horse and carts, they smell good too, for a bit anyway...……..*chr

Naughty Nigel
25th April 2019, 07:40 AM
It's ok I keep the stove door shut, only opening to chuck some wood in as and when necessary. :)

That's fine for you but we are all choking to death on your smoke out here in the cold. :D

More seriously I hear there are plans to mandate some kind of particulate filter on wood burning stoves, similar to the DPF system fitted to diesel cars. What could possibly go wrong? :rolleyes:

Can we talk Steam Trains next? Love 'em, bring them back please.

Oh yes please. And the railway lines themselves. *yes

PS: Anyone who talks about 'Train Stations' will be blocked. :mad:

Zuiko
25th April 2019, 07:59 AM
Agreed, all very valid points John. *yes

I feel however, given the average selfish, NIMBY attitude of the population, it would require drastic legislation to achieve and be an impossible voluntary task. When you consider the current Parliamentary fiasco, getting agreement on such as the above would take years, if ever, to implement and no doubt be too late. I don't profess to have any answers but, as you, I feel urgent action is needed sooner than later.

Jax

Most definitely there is a huge difference between what we should do and what we will do! It's rather ironic that Brexit is currently occupying so much of our time and climate change so little, especially in Parliament. I wonder which issue will seem the most important, looking back in a hundred years time?

Ricoh
25th April 2019, 08:23 AM
Climate damage is a serious issue and shouldn't be trivialised. I guess the original question related to the rise in global warming.
If electric battery powered propulsion is one way forward, another is hydrogen ion exchange. Both need energy conversion to make the purified forms.
Solar, wind farms and wave energy will not meet the needs world-wide, it is said. We need alternatives. Fission has nasty consequences, and fusion is a long way away from being developed to becoming viable. That's not to say it's impossible. But why do we only spend world-wide a trivial amount on fusion research!?

Methane is 86x more damaging than carbon dioxide (methane dissipates far quicker though) and our love of eating beef needs to be moderated, or replaced. Cattle farming needs to heavily moderated.

So many parts to the equation to consider.

Naughty Nigel
25th April 2019, 08:32 AM
Most definitely there is a huge difference between what we should do and what we will do! It's rather ironic that Brexit is currently occupying so much of our time and climate change so little, especially in Parliament. I wonder which issue will seem the most important, looking back in a hundred years time?

I do sometimes wonder what would have happened if Sir Ernest Marples (and no doubt other politicians) had owned shares in railways rather than road building?

The Beeching cuts had nothing to do with lack of foresight. I accept that some branch lines were uneconomic at that time but there were many strategic lines that formed a valuable part of the rail infrastructure but were deliberately put beyond further use. This was a cold, calculated decision made only to make money for those concerned.

As we have seen from HS2 and Crossrail, the cost of opening new lines and reopening old lines is eye watering.

Zuiko
25th April 2019, 08:35 AM
It isn't just business meetings either. Where is the justification for thousands of delegates and other hangers-on flying to the furthest points of the globe to attend climate change summits?

Then there is the showbiz set who fly to climate change protests in their private jets, but drive a Toyota Pious to show they care about the environment. For that matter, where is the justification for 60,000 people flying thousands of miles to watch 22 overpaid prima donnas kicking a ball around? You see more on the telly!

Yes, there are double standards and gross hypocrisy right across the board. Making the necessary sacrifices always applies to others, never ourselves - gosh, what we are doing in our lives is so much more important than the priorities of anybody else. We deserve to be exempt!

I'm broadly supportive of the sentiments of the climate change protesters in London; they are at least drawing attention to the urgency of the problem. However, for a group who claim the moral high ground in caring for the environment, they left a huge amount of discarded empty plastic drinks bottles amongst other rubbish. Also, I saw several interviewed who proudly stated the distance they had travelled to be there. Wouldn't their case be more convincing if they had taken action in their home towns?

Good point about the football; on Monday Norwich City even filled their stadium with fans to watch an away match on giant screens! I suppose it is marginally better than having them travel to Stoke (where the match was actually played) but as Nigel says, what's wrong with the telly at home?

To end with a slight photographic flavour, my son was in London on Saturday for a medical appointment and just happened to run into the protest. Like any good photography student he had his camera with him and started to take pictures, only to be promptly told by a policeman to vacate the scene or risk being arrested. I like to think I would have taken that risk, if only to stand up for photographer's rights! :D

Jax
25th April 2019, 12:34 PM
To end with a slight photographic flavour, my son was in London on Saturday for a medical appointment and just happened to run into the protest. Like any good photography student he had his camera with him and started to take pictures, only to be promptly told by a policeman to vacate the scene or risk being arrested. I like to think I would have taken that risk, if only to stand up for photographer's rights! :D

Noble gesture ! Speaking of photographic flavour, I understand prison food is much improved now :D

Jax

Zuiko
25th April 2019, 02:33 PM
Noble gesture ! Speaking of photographic flavour, I understand prison food is much improved now :D

Jax

And it's free! :D

OM USer
25th April 2019, 02:44 PM
...More seriously I hear there are plans to mandate some kind of particulate filter on wood burning stoves, similar to the DPF system fitted to diesel cars. What could possibly go wrong?...

The council has for a long time decreed that wood burning stoves are not permitted here as we are in a "smokeless" zone. BBQ's and bonfires are exempt. Stoves must be of the multi-fuel variety and only be used to burn smokeless fuel.