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Jax
27th March 2019, 06:33 PM
It seems we are going to have speed limiters fitted to all new cars by 2022. As these gadgets can be legally deselected by the driver it seems to be another item of pointless legislation approved by the EU. :confused:


Jax

Harold Gough
27th March 2019, 07:37 PM
As these gadgets can be legally deselected by the driver it seems to be another item of pointless legislation approved by the EU.

Where did you see that?

Harold

Graham_of_Rainham
27th March 2019, 07:51 PM
I would love to have automatic cruse control, with distance sensing speed regulation and breaking. My son has it on his Volvo.

I have had something similar sat next to me for years :cool:

Jax
27th March 2019, 07:54 PM
Where did you see that?

Harold

BBC News At 6PM tonight *yes

Jax

DerekW
27th March 2019, 08:37 PM
I have adaptive cruise control on my Volvo as well - coming home from the show last week I did not have to brake on the whole of the journey on the M40 and A34, the car kept me at a sensible distance from the vehicle in front and at sensible speed.

but then some people are happy to be in the arms of nanny Volvo other people want to do it all themselves.

UK car makers will have to comply with these rules if they want to sell into the EU, and the EU car manufacturers would only charge extra to remove the extra features so that they could be sold in the UK.

Otto
27th March 2019, 08:39 PM
Trucks have had them for years. But let’s have a pop at the EU while we’re about it eh?

If it reduces speed in built up areas it would seem like a good idea. If it meant an end to wretched speed humps even more so!

Jax
27th March 2019, 08:46 PM
Trucks have had them for years. But letís have a pop at the EU while weíre about it eh?

If it reduces speed in built up areas it would seem like a good idea. If it meant an end to wretched speed humps even more so!

The point I was trying to make (maybe not clearly) was that the proposed speed limiters are to be switchable, ie able to be switched off by the driver at will, at least according to the web reports and TV News.

Jax

MJ224
27th March 2019, 09:14 PM
If it reduces the possibility of speeding, how are the councils going to find an alternative source of funds...ÖÖÖÖÖ.????:confused:

Jax
27th March 2019, 09:16 PM
I have had something similar sat next to me for years :cool:

Same here Graham ! Oh, if only THEY were switchable :D

Jax

Otto
27th March 2019, 09:16 PM
Yes but they will re-engage the next time the car is started. The start-stop system in my last car did the same, thankfully in my present one once it’s switched off it stays off! A speed limiter must be capable of being overridden though to get you out of trouble if necessary.

Rocknroll59
27th March 2019, 09:32 PM
Seems like a good idea but only applies to cars after 2022? So the 10 year old BMW's driven around the UK will still be able to hurtle around at breakneck speeds cutting a path through the queues of traffic...:D:D

I use my cruise control a lot and its a bit of a competition now to see if I don't brake, which automatically stops the cruise control, and anticipate the traffic in front instead including overtaking...it does work well sometimes.

Peter

wornish
27th March 2019, 10:23 PM
It will only work on and apply to newly registered cars.

So it will be over 20 years before it applies to the majority of cars on the road.

My current Volvo already displays the speed limit for the location where I am traveling through. It is uncannily accurate as it changes within a few meters of a speed sign. It's the next obvious step.

Dont think it will bother me.

Naughty Nigel
27th March 2019, 10:59 PM
I have an adjustable speed limiter in my car.

I don't like using it as I don't feel in full control, and feels as if the car is in 'limp home' mode, but is very useful in built up areas and motorway roadworks.

That said I don't get much pleasure from driving these days and other than driving to Scotland, Northumberland or over the moors I would rather be on the train. The roads are too congested and there is so much needless aggression, which I don't think speed limiters will reduce.

TimP
28th March 2019, 08:05 AM
I have adaptive cruise control on my Volvo as well - coming home from the show last week I did not have to brake on the whole of the journey on the M40 and A34, the car kept me at a sensible distance from the vehicle in front and at sensible speed.

I can do that all by myself! Generally only ever brake at junctions or occasionally at corners on roads I donít know.
I think people are gradually getting worse at driving and this wonít help, itíll just make people less attentive to actual road conditions and they will come to rely on the car to make up for their inability to drive properly.

TimP
28th March 2019, 08:07 AM
A speed limiter must be capable of being overridden though to get you out of trouble if necessary.

So what sort of situation will going faster help in where braking and perhaps tucking back in wouldnít?

Naughty Nigel
28th March 2019, 08:46 AM
I think people are gradually getting worse at driving and this wonít help, itíll just make people less attentive to actual road conditions and they will come to rely on the car to make up for their inability to drive properly.

I would agree with that 100%. Unfortunately road safety and driving slowly have become synonymous in many people's minds, driven by successive governments' compulsion for persecuting drivers for straying just a few MPH over often in appropriate and long-outdated speed limits in an effort to fill government coffers.

The fact is that accidents are caused more by inattention and aggression than speed per se. Forcing drivers to spend more time clock watching will not help.


All lorries are now fitted with speed limiters. How many lorry drivers drive courteously as a result and concentrate 100% on the road around them?


So what sort of situation will going faster help in where braking and perhaps tucking back in wouldnít?


There are many situations where limiting a vehicle's speed to a set speed limit is downright dangerous in my view. Take the all too familiar situation where a queue of cars and other vehicles are passing a stationary bus which then pulls out without warning or the use of mirrors. If you happen to be passing the bus at the time you have four options:


Drive into the side of the bus;
Collide with vehicles travelling in the opposite direction;
Stand on the brakes and get rear-ended;
Accelerate past the bus to safety, possibly exceeding the speed limit fractionally as you do so.


I would submit that No 4 is by far the safest option regardless of what 'BRAKE' and the other road safety organisations would have us believe.

Safe overtaking means spending as little time as possible on the wrong side of the road, which is why I would contend that many modern (read 'underpowered') cars are dangerous, and why safe overtaking has become a lost art.

If I hit the speed limiter whilst overtaking on a long straight road and there is an HGV in the distance steaming towards me in the opposite direction I don't think I would be placated by the road safety argument.

Otto
28th March 2019, 08:48 AM
When you're overtaking and are most of the way past the vehicle, and something or someone suddenly appears in the opposite direction? Safer to accelerate past the vehicle, especially as quite often the vehicle driver may also notice the hazard and brake.


Actually I'm remindd of a letter in one of the car mags a few years ago which said that all accidents are caused by people driving too slowly; if they'd been going more quickly they'd have been somewhere else. A fair point!

TimP
28th March 2019, 08:55 AM
Don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not advocating these stupid limiter things and actually have my speed limiter set at 99mph and occasionally hit it and wonder WTF is going on!
I do think that the ‘speed up to get out of the sh1t’ idea is misplaced, despite those eloquent arguments, particularly the bus example, as depending on where you are when the bus pulls out you’re likely just to hit the front side of it faster! Whilst someone rear ending you is a nightmare, they really shouldn’t be following you past as they should be able to see the bus is pulling out (his brake lights go out for example)

Jim Ford
28th March 2019, 09:12 AM
I guess that white vans will be exempt and still travel at 90+ in the outside lane with impunity! ;)

Jim

TimP
28th March 2019, 09:20 AM
I think that in general most genuine motoring offences are ignored, unless you happen to pass a speed trap in which case you’re treated like the worst person in the country.
It seems that downright bad and dangerous driving has no-one to police it anymore.

Naughty Nigel
28th March 2019, 09:55 AM
I guess that white vans will be exempt and still travel at 90+ in the outside lane with impunity! ;)

Jim

Only if they have 'Motorway Maintenance' emblazoned all over them, and then only in 50 MPH average speed camera zones through motorway roadwork's. :rolleyes:

The long-running roadwork's on the A1M near to us had a large sign advising drivers (I quote) 'Speed limit to protect the workforce'. I found this rather ironic given the way that 'Motorway Maintenance' vehicles seem to be driven. *yes

Naughty Nigel
28th March 2019, 10:01 AM
I think that in general most genuine motoring offences are ignored, unless you happen to pass a speed trap in which case youíre treated like the worst person in the country.
It seems that downright bad and dangerous driving has no-one to police it anymore.

Furthermore, speed cameras only concern those of us who drive vehicles which are legally registered, taxed and insured, etc. They provide no deterrent for those who drive illegally, or whilst unlicensed, who tend to be the most dangerous drivers anyway.

Naughty Nigel
28th March 2019, 11:17 AM
Look at this another way.

Everyone is expected to do more and more with fewer resources and in shorter time today. I doubt that HMRC would cancel fines for late submission of Self Assessment because of the time wasted by speed limiters. Those of us in business also have the joys of MTD to look forward to. :(

Fitting speed limiters may arguably reduce road deaths and injuries, (I would say that is questionable), but how many more people will die as a result of stress, road rage and even suicide owing to speed limiters being fitted?

Many people feel their lives are helpless and futile enough as it is without adding yet more restrictions.

Zuiko
28th March 2019, 11:19 AM
Well, I'll admit to occasions when I unintentionally creep above the speed limit and would welcome the technology to prevent this. Of course there will be extreme situations when the speed limiter might actually cause an accident but if you misjudge when overtaking against oncoming traffic, for example, it could be questionable whether you should have been overtaking in the first place. It's a bit like the seatbelt argument, there will always be a one in a thousand situation when you might have been better off without it.

Zuiko
28th March 2019, 11:25 AM
how many more people will die as a result of stress, road rage and even suicide owing to speed limiters being fitted?



I may be wrong but that does seem a little extreme. If anyone was affected to that extent I would question whether they should be driving in the first place.

Jax
28th March 2019, 11:26 AM
Many people feel their lives are helpless and futile enough as it is without adding yet more restrictions.

In my case, that is more a result of the Co-Pilot/Navigator sat in the passenger seat than any restrictions imposed by gadgetry :)

Jax

Naughty Nigel
28th March 2019, 11:56 AM
I may be wrong but that does seem a little extreme. If anyone was affected to that extent I would question whether they should be driving in the first place.

Road rage is an ever increasing problem. Do you think speed limiters will reduce it?

We hear of Amazon delivery drivers having to take a dump in buckets in the back of their vans, such is the time pressure they are under. Will speed limiters reduce that pressure?

My point is, we are all expected to do more and more in shorter time, and yet road travel looks set to become even slower than it is now.

Rather than fannying around with electric cars and speed limiters we need to get away from our reliance on the private car. It is a 20th century social experiment which has failed spectacularly, is destroying our planet, poisoning us and seems is causing mental harm.

Why else would something as pathetic as a modern car cause people to kill other road users by deliberate violence? People even kill over parking spaces in Asda car parks!

TimP
28th March 2019, 12:37 PM
Furthermore, speed cameras only concern those of us who drive vehicles which are legally registered, taxed and insured, etc. They provide no deterrent for those who drive illegally, or whilst unlicensed, who tend to be the most dangerous drivers anyway.

Good point, although youíd think they could combine the speed cameras with ANPR devices and catch some more punters. I guess that would also require a police vehicle or two in a nearby layby.

TimP
28th March 2019, 12:40 PM
Road rage is an ever increasing problem. Do you think speed limiters will reduce it?

We hear of Amazon delivery drivers having to take a dump in buckets in the back of their vans, such is the time pressure they are under. Will speed limiters reduce that pressure?


Note to self: never, ever buy a bucket from Amazon!

Naughty Nigel
28th March 2019, 12:41 PM
Note to self: never, ever buy a bucket from Amazon!

They now sell food as well Tim. *yes

Zuiko
28th March 2019, 12:59 PM
Road rage is an ever increasing problem. Do you think speed limiters will reduce it?

We hear of Amazon delivery drivers having to take a dump in buckets in the back of their vans, such is the time pressure they are under. Will speed limiters reduce that pressure?

My point is, we are all expected to do more and more in shorter time, and yet road travel looks set to become even slower than it is now.

Rather than fannying around with electric cars and speed limiters we need to get away from our reliance on the private car. It is a 20th century social experiment which has failed spectacularly, is destroying our planet, poisoning us and seems is causing mental harm.

Why else would something as pathetic as a modern car cause people to kill other road users by deliberate violence? People even kill over parking spaces in Asda car parks!

Of course speed limiters will not reduce road rage, but it seems to me that the problem is the road rage and not the speed limiter. If someone's temper is at boiling point I'd rather meet them at 30mph than 40mph!

As for Amazon drivers being under so much pressure that they have no time for a dump, rather than turn a blind eye to them breaking the speed limit because they have a good excuse, it seems to me the solution would be to force Amazon to improve the working conditions of their employees, by legislation if necessary.

I totally agree that the long term solution is to reduce our reliance on the car and develop better and cheaper public transport as an alternative.

Naughty Nigel
28th March 2019, 01:13 PM
Good point, although youíd think they could combine the speed cameras with ANPR devices and catch some more punters. I guess that would also require a police vehicle or two in a nearby layby.

Well, we were involved in a road-rage incident a few days ago through the road works on the A1M north of Scotch Corner which has a 50 MPH limit enforced by average speed cameras.

The traffic in lane one was solid with (mainly) lorries tail to tail. We were in lane 2 with cruise control set to an indicated 56 MPH. My son was driving and I checked our speed by GPS which was 50 MPH.

Anyhow, an arrogant prick in an Audi Q8 came steaming along and planted himself on our rear bumper at a distance of less than two metres. Lane one was solid so there was no escape. The safest option would have been to speed up, but the so called 'safety cameras' prohibited this. The morbidly obese cabbage crate driver was flashing his lights, sounding his horn and waving his arms around and using a held-held phone at the time!

This continued for about two miles until the end of the road works section when we were able to speed up to safety and pull over. The cabbage crate driver then pulled in front of us and performed what I am told is called a 'brake check', nearly causing a pile up with following traffic. He then opened his window and made a reciprocating gesture with his thumb and forefinger formed into a circle. This is not one that I have seen in the Highway Code but seems to be common language amongst white van drivers.

The second part of this sequence was captured on front-facing dashcam and has been forwarded to the police but I doubt that anything will happen.

Now the point is, one of the vehicles that we overtook (very slowly), and which had a ringside seat was - wait for it - A Safety Camera Van.

Having seen this behaviour I would have expected the Officer to have pulled over the Audi driver, but he did **** all. :mad:

Naughty Nigel
28th March 2019, 01:17 PM
As for Amazon drivers being under so much pressure that they have no time for a dump, rather than turn a blind eye to them breaking the speed limit because they have a good excuse, it seems to me the solution would be to force Amazon to improve the working conditions of their employees, by legislation if necessary.

I have an even better solution John: I refuse to use them. If more people followed suit things might just improve.

It's not as if they contribute to our economy; quite the reverse in fact.

Indeed, I would go so far as to say that if left unchecked, Amazon (along with eBay, Facebook, et al) will do a lot more harm to the UK than leaving the EU.

Naughty Nigel
28th March 2019, 01:24 PM
Of course speed limiters will not reduce road rage, but it seems to me that the problem is the road rage and not the speed limiter. If someone's temper is at boiling point I'd rather meet them at 30mph than 40mph!

I believe that road rage is caused by the ever increasing pressure to do more and more in less and less time. This is compounded by the ever increasing controls on our lives, and in particular the frustrations caused by having to deal with big business, government, etc.

Being parted with money has never been easier but getting it back from large organisations and resolving problems with malfunctioning purchases has become a head-banging exercise.

We are controlled far more than we realise, often in subtle ways, but every day it gets worse. And it always works in their favour.

DerekW
28th March 2019, 02:25 PM
Amazon saves me driving into town (5 miles away for regular stuff, 30 miles away for nice to haves) local shopping would probably require multiple trips to fetch the ordered goods. So for me Amazon reduces traffic, pollution and carparking in various towns.

TimP
28th March 2019, 03:05 PM
<snip>
The second part of this sequence was captured on front-facing dashcam and has been forwarded to the police but I doubt that anything will happen.

Now the point is, one of the vehicles that we overtook (very slowly), and which had a ringside seat was - wait for it - A Safety Camera Van.

Having seen this behaviour I would have expected the Officer to have pulled over the Audi driver, but he did **** all. :mad:

Maybe if youíd told the police heíd posted something unpleasant on Facebook theyíd have been on him like a rash.

I must admit I do enjoy trundling along at bang on the limit and seeing the fury on the faces of cars behind me, same in those 50 mph average areas on motorways too. Never seen what happened to you though and generally very few people seem to do more than the 50. I do wonder what happens to those you see blasting through the cameras on the M25 at well over the posted limit though, are they invulnerable due to cloned plates or something??

TimP
28th March 2019, 03:08 PM
Amazon saves me driving into town (5 miles away for regular stuff, 30 miles away for nice to haves) local shopping would probably require multiple trips to fetch the ordered goods. So for me Amazon reduces traffic, pollution and carparking in various towns.

Sorry to say it but itís the same for me. I do always check their prices though and often go elsewhere.
Iíve yet to embrace online supermarket shopping though.

TimP
28th March 2019, 03:11 PM
I believe that road rage is caused by the ever increasing pressure to do more and more in less and less time.

I think itís more down to the ever increasing selfishness of people. People seem to have this self entitled attitude and either donít see or donít care about others or whatís going on around them. Ignorant, selfish louts abound.

Ricoh
28th March 2019, 03:32 PM
Titles can be misleading - I expected a discussion on Metabones...

Naughty Nigel
28th March 2019, 03:33 PM
Amazon saves me driving into town (5 miles away for regular stuff, 30 miles away for nice to haves) local shopping would probably require multiple trips to fetch the ordered goods. So for me Amazon reduces traffic, pollution and carparking in various towns.

If every business behaved like Amazon the country would be bankrupt.

I don't have a problem with online shopping from reputable retailers, but the business ethics of Amazon and eBay in particular are non-existent.

Even the VAT that you pay them doesn't go the HMRC.


Amazon reduces traffic, pollution and car parking in various towns.

Well, it will when all of the real shops have closed down.

Naughty Nigel
28th March 2019, 03:52 PM
I think itís more down to the ever increasing selfishness of people. People seem to have this self entitled attitude and either donít see or donít care about others or whatís going on around them. Ignorant, selfish louts abound.

I think the attitude is that if you have enough money you can have whatever you want.

I have reason to believe the person in this case was a Property Developer, and in this area at least Property Developers can buy and develop wherever they want. All it takes is a £500,000 bung to party funds via a plumber in Newcastle and you can build anything anywhere you like, but they can get very angry if they don't get their own way. By the same token I daresay getting the odd speeding ticket 'lost in the system' would be very easy.

Jax
28th March 2019, 03:57 PM
When all the real shops have vanished due to lack of trade, vultures such as Amazon whilst rubbing their hands in glee will simply increase all their charges as there is no longer any competition. No worries though as those who use Amazon are apparently doing their bit for humanity, reducing traffic, pollution, parking and carbon emissions by not driving 5 miles into their local towns.

I wonder if the pollution caused by the Amazon delivery vehicle has been considered ?

Jax

Naughty Nigel
29th March 2019, 09:15 AM
When all the real shops have vanished due to lack of trade, vultures such as Amazon whilst rubbing their hands in glee will simply increase all their charges as there is no longer any competition.

You only need to look at B&Q to see that philosophy in action.

When B&Q started out they undercut the competition and put the majority of independent hardware shops out of business. Now they have a monopoly they only sell overpriced Chinese crap at extortionate prices.

Interestingly though, Kingfisher group had been losing trade sales so they opened Screwfix, where they sell many of the same products at much lower prices than in their DIY emporia.

TimP
29th March 2019, 11:42 AM
I think the attitude is that if you have enough money you can have whatever you want.

I have reason to believe the person in this case was a Property Developer, and in this area at least Property Developers can buy and develop wherever they want. All it takes is a £500,000 bung to party funds via a plumber in Newcastle and you can build anything anywhere you like, but they can get very angry if they don't get their own way. By the same token I daresay getting the odd speeding ticket 'lost in the system' would be very easy.

Perhaps itís the system that lets this happen thatís at fault, same with companies not paying taxes, itís the system at fault. Sort that and these things wonít happen ( there will no doubt be something else though!)

TimP
29th March 2019, 11:47 AM
You only need to look at B&Q to see that philosophy in action.

When B&Q started out they undercut the competition and put the majority of independent hardware shops out of business. Now they have a monopoly they only sell overpriced Chinese crap at extortionate prices.

Interestingly though, Kingfisher group had been losing trade sales so they opened Screwfix, where they sell many of the same products at much lower prices than in their DIY emporia.

So capitalism in action. All the stuff outsourced to Asia will be the same as soon as they have cornered the market, ramp the prices up.
Do we make anything in this country any more? Anything substantial, not niche? Aerospace all but gone, automotive same, shipping same, railways same, weíve been sold down the river by successive governments for short term gain.

Still, look on the bright side, all the bankers will be fine.

MJ224
29th March 2019, 02:09 PM
A race to the bottom..:)

Otto
29th March 2019, 03:02 PM
When B&Q started out they undercut the competition and put the majority of independent hardware shops out of business.

B&Q is the last place I'd go to for hardware etc nowadays. Builders merchants (and indeed Screwfix, Plumb Center etc) are generally much cheaper and don't have those wretched automated check-outs that I won't use on principle.


Remember OurPrice Records? As soon as they'd put all the independent record shops out of business they rapidly became RRP Records. It's the same in all walks of life. I think Costa Coffee is well named too ;).

TimP
29th March 2019, 03:18 PM
So much of this is surely down to shareholders demanding ever increasing profits, totally unsustainable yet what’s wrong with a healthy ongoing profit every year, you know, kinda keeping up with inflation instead of causing it!

Jax
29th March 2019, 03:28 PM
It's amazing how a thread that originally concerned EU legislation about fitting speed limiters on cars can drift so far of topic. At least Brexit hasn't found it's way in.............................. yet :)


Jax