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View Full Version : Political: Time for the little guy ?


Dewi9
19th January 2019, 12:20 PM
Not wishing to promote or endorse any one newspaper, but in todays 'i' newspaper is a piece by Will Tanner (director of think-tank) which I fully agree with.

He promotes the view that the whole Br**it debacle has little to do with the feeling that the UK is forever being overuled by European Union grandees, but is more a backlash by the general population against Big Business.

In short, folk have had enough of being pushed around and having their views ignored. The call 'take back power' became a rallying call for action. On the whole it seems that power has migrated from 'local' to 'national' with little regard to any consequences.

One result of this is the lower total number of voters turning out for local elections - if your local council is perpetually being overuled by The Government, thus proving they have no 'real' power, what is the point of voting ? How can they change anything for the better ?

Similarly, the mantra of 'Big is better', so beloved by Big Business, causes real problems for many.

In the NHS for instance, there is a big push for regional 'centres of excellence' which might mean that your heart operation takes place miles away from your home, causing travel problems for your famliy should they want to visit you in hospital should you become sick.

Promises of lower costs through competition have also proved worthless as big business swallows any small guy offering savings.

Is this backlash any surprise to anyone then ?

The article finishes with a call for massive downsizing back to local accountability and funding with the state being responsible for national infrastructure projects.

What are your views ?

Beagletorque
19th January 2019, 12:52 PM
Good idea, but will inevitably cost more to provide.
Not necessarily a bad thing as it would provide more jobs too.
Just selfish humans want things for cheap and someone has to pay which is how we got where we are now.
And so the cycle will continue when savings are needed in the future and we have to spend again to go back to where we were before.
We need long term thinking not "quick populist fixes" which turn out to be very expensive in the long run, not just in £.
Brexit will turn out ot be one of them I'm sure.:rolleyes:

Otto
19th January 2019, 01:11 PM
Since most of these big businesses have got big through economies of scale and thus lower prices, and everybody wants something for (next to) nothing, I think we have only ourselves to blame, but I agree with the article's sentiment. I try to buy from small businesses when I can (possibly because I used to run one!) because I appreciate personal service that is also accessible. There are few things worse than hanging on a phone line for ages (listening to fatuous piped music and/or suggestions to visit the web site) only to get through to someone who just reads from a corporate script.

If we want to return to smaller more accessible organisations we are going to have to be prepared to pay for it, through higher prices and increased taxation.

TimP
19th January 2019, 01:21 PM
The views of Will Tanner I’m sure ring very true but I suspect there is a huge racist element in the main part of the Brexit vote. The more intelligent Brexiteer will, I’m sure have been voting against the so called Big Business element. The NHS example is a situation where part of the costs of hospital treatment is moved from the state to middle England (those that can afford to pay to visit and park at these so called centres of excellence). Personally I don’t want to have choice, I want my local hospital to be able to provide a decent treatment, as good as any elsewhere.

Darkroom
19th January 2019, 01:24 PM
Since most of these big businesses have got big through economies of scale and thus lower prices, and everybody wants something for (next to) nothing, I think we have only ourselves to blame, but I agree with the article's sentiment. I try to buy from small businesses when I can (possibly because I used to run one!) because I appreciate personal service that is also accessible. There are few things worse than hanging on a phone line for ages (listening to fatuous piped music and/or suggestions to visit the web site) only to get through to someone who just reads from a corporate script.

If we want to return to smaller more accessible organisations we are going to have to be prepared to pay for it, through higher prices and increased taxation.

I totally agree with every word Otto ( for once :) ) *chr

Darkroom

wornish
19th January 2019, 01:36 PM
Since most of these big businesses have got big through economies of scale and thus lower prices, and everybody wants something for (next to) nothing, I think we have only ourselves to blame, but I agree with the article's sentiment. I try to buy from small businesses when I can (possibly because I used to run one!) because I appreciate personal service that is also accessible. There are few things worse than hanging on a phone line for ages (listening to fatuous piped music and/or suggestions to visit the web site) only to get through to someone who just reads from a corporate script.

If we want to return to smaller more accessible organisations we are going to have to be prepared to pay for it, through higher prices and increased taxation.

Likewise, For once I agree with you.

The big guys will buy out any possible competition from little guys and that's always. been the case. In fact, that's what a lot of little guys hope for.

Otto
19th January 2019, 02:03 PM
Another thing that drives me nuts is the dumbing down of almost everything to extraordinary levels of puerility. I have just been forced to upgrade (sic) Skype from v7 to v8 and now there's a big flashy animation telling me to "try out some new fun stuff", choose colours, emojis, games, in fact anything that might appeal to a nine year old. Skype was a useful and sensible messaging and VOIP app but it's been progressively ruined since Microsoft bought it, now it's just another game.

Please can we keep B****t out of this thread? :D

Tram
19th January 2019, 05:05 PM
These ideas have a habit of just going round in a circle.
Where I worked operate on a very local basis, repair engineers based and operated in small areas.
Someone came up with the idea of expanding these areas to increase productivity and efficiency.
Then after a few years someone else said how about we devolve these large areas so local knowledge plays a larger part.
Probably gone back to larger regions by now.

Cheap is good seems to be the mantra of today, going to be hard changing that culture.
Was shopping every day or so for food in individual shops really better for those who did it?
My mum loved it when supermarkets opened with everything under one roof, made her life much easier.

Have to accept life moves on and changes, much of our political problems stem from people trying to turn back the clock.
Nostalgia is in many cases just an illusion, heritage railways are great, but Eurostar at 200mph edges it over the boat train every time

Harold Gough
19th January 2019, 07:09 PM
He promotes the view that the whole Br**it debacle has little to do with the feeling that the UK is forever being overuled by European Union grandees, but is more a backlash by the general population against Big Business.

That sounds like a journalist looking for a new angle. I have not come across anyone expressing this concern in such a context.

Harold

Darkroom
19th January 2019, 07:38 PM
Cheap is good seems to be the mantra of today, going to be hard changing that culture.

Some of us prefer quality.

Was shopping every day or so for food in individual shops really better for those who did it?

Yes.

Darkroom

Otto
19th January 2019, 08:39 PM
I still shop for food most days. No vast supermarkets within 45mins drive of here but we have most of what we need in the shops on the doorstep. We have a proper independent butcher whose local meat knocks spots off the supermarkets, and a Spar shop whose prices are low enough that there's no point in going elsewhere. We could do with a better variety of greengrocery but there's a decent market once a week. If I do venture into a Tesco Extra or similar I'm so overwhelmed I rarely stay for long!

Tram
19th January 2019, 09:02 PM
Being here feels just like one of those photo clubs populated by dinosaurs.
If you are a working person especially a mother too how on earth can you shop like that daily.
Apart from time, money also comes into the equation which is in short supply after years of enforced austerity
May I ask are you all retired because in general you seem out of touch with the modern world

Naughty Nigel
19th January 2019, 09:02 PM
Likewise, For once I agree with you.

The big guys will buy out any possible competition from little guys and that's always. been the case. In fact, that's what a lot of little guys hope for.

The big guys always undercut the little guys to drive them out of business. Once the competition has been destroyed they hike up prices big time.

But that is not enough. They then have to replace trusted, reputable brands with cheap Chinese crap which has been cost reduced to the point that it no longer fulfils any useful purpose. Just try buying wood screws from B&Q and you will see what I mean. If you are lucky you will manage to screw six of them into some decent wood without shearing their heads or breaking one of their crappy Chinese made screwdrivers.

In fact I often wonder whether the engineering term 'Cheese Head Screw' somehow got lost in the translation into Chinese. :mad:

The sad truth is that WE have collectively created the B&Q's, the Amazon's and the Primark's that now dominate retail sales.

Amazon isn't even cheap any more; it is actually a lot more expensive than most independent stores, and sometimes even more expensive than the high street, and they still don't pay any tax; but Amazon does have a convenient app, delivery is next day and returns are free.

The greatest irony of all is that the middle class liberals in the leafy suburbs who berate Br***t for its effect on the British economy are the first to reach for their smartphones to order a Pritt-Stick that they could have bought from their local corner shop. :rolleyes:

Darkroom
19th January 2019, 09:34 PM
Argos at one time was the bench mark for cheapest high street prices. Since their takeover by Sainsbury's their products are often dearer than RRP and most products discontinued lines. Rubbish rip off company now.

Darkroom

Otto
19th January 2019, 09:39 PM
Being here feels just like one of those photo clubs populated by dinosaurs.
If you are a working person especially a mother too how on earth can you shop like that daily.
Apart from time, money also comes into the equation which is in short supply after years of enforced austerity
May I ask are you all retired because in general you seem out of touch with the modern world


Well, I will admit to being retired (just!) but I don't appreciate being called a dinosaur. Our shops are two minutes walk away and the prices are reasonable enough to make it pointless spending an hour and a half and a gallon or more of petrol to drive to a supermarket. I appreciate I'm fortunate to live in a rural and remote market town, but I am also well aware that life is very different in other parts of the country. When I go back to the Hertfordshire town I lived in for 25 years or so before moving here I wonder how I stuck it for so long.

wornish
19th January 2019, 09:43 PM
The big guys always undercut the little guys to drive them out of business. Once the competition has been destroyed they hike up prices big time.

But that is not enough. They then have to replace trusted, reputable brands with cheap Chinese crap which has been cost reduced to the point that it no longer fulfils any useful purpose. Just try buying wood screws from B&Q and you will see what I mean. If you are lucky you will manage to screw six of them into some decent wood without shearing their heads or breaking one of their crappy Chinese made screwdrivers.

In fact I often wonder whether the engineering term 'Cheese Head Screw' somehow got lost in the translation into Chinese. :mad:

The sad truth is that WE have collectively created the B&Q's, the Amazon's and the Primark's that now dominate retail sales.

Amazon isn't even cheap any more; it is actually a lot more expensive than most independent stores, and sometimes even more expensive than the high street, and they still don't pay any tax; but Amazon does have a convenient app, delivery is next day and returns are free.

The greatest irony of all is that the middle class liberals in the leafy suburbs who berate Br***t for its effect on the British economy are the first to reach for their smartphones to order a Pritt-Stick that they could have bought from their local corner shop. :rolleyes:

100% agree.
We allowed this to happen.

Darkroom
19th January 2019, 09:55 PM
Being here feels just like one of those photo clubs populated by dinosaurs.

You have a very simple solution always available to resolve that problem *yes


Darkroom

Tram
19th January 2019, 10:11 PM
OK then, I'll stay and try to drag you into the 21st or should that be 20th century.

Darkroom
19th January 2019, 10:13 PM
OK then, I'll stay and try to drag you into the 21st or should that be 20th century.

Good luck with that *chr

Darkroom

Naughty Nigel
19th January 2019, 10:13 PM
Being here feels just like one of those photo clubs populated by dinosaurs.
If you are a working person especially a mother too how on earth can you shop like that daily.
Apart from time, money also comes into the equation which is in short supply after years of enforced austerity
May I ask are you all retired because in general you seem out of touch with the modern world

How ever did our parents manage in the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's without huge supermarkets, deep freezers, mobile phones, credit cards and multi-car ownership?

I am not retired and am unlikely to ever do so. Thank you Gordon Brown for that. :mad:

People usually make their lives the way they are. Dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator may be convenient for the masses in the short term, but rarely makes things better for society overall in the long term.

Presumably those millennials who choose to shop at Amazon and eBay will still expect the NHS to function and their child benefit to be paid?

Being able to see these issues for what they are does not make one a dinosaur. :mad:

wornish
19th January 2019, 10:15 PM
Being here feels just like one of those photo clubs populated by dinosaurs.
If you are a working person especially a mother too how on earth can you shop like that daily.
Apart from time, money also comes into the equation which is in short supply after years of enforced austerity
May I ask are you all retired because in general you seem out of touch with the modern world


Looking at the poll we did a while back I think the majority here may be retired or about to retire. Yes, they might not up to date with the latest X-Factor winner, or what the top game download is this week, but they do have experience of life and are certainly not dinosaurs. They are also not Snowflakes to coin a phrase.

They worked their whole lives to get to where they are. Maybe a few had a little help from the state, but most again I think you will find did it through hard work and effort.

I do not believe in the Nanny State, I started with nothing and made what I have today with the support of my wife, by sheer hard work, determination and the willingness to move to where the work is.

I have two children and they are now independent and doing their own thing.

Life is not what nanny state gives you in welfare to keep you quiet.

Its what you make of it!

Tram
19th January 2019, 10:44 PM
I was born in the east end, left school at 16, worked hard and retired at 55.
House bought and paid for, my daughter studied and earned her Optometry degree.

My generation have been extremely fortunate to have had an affordable housing market.
Also benefitted from final salary pensions and for the most part a settled economy.

The youngsters today are finding life much harder than we did.
House prices at unaffordable levels, poor pensions and rubbish job prospects thanks to things such as zero hours contracts.
We haven't left much of a legacy and even now want to remove access to the EU which we have enjoyed for the last forty or more years.
Why not look around and try to see the good things rather than just moan how crap everything is.

Darkroom
19th January 2019, 10:47 PM
I was born in the east end, left school at 16, worked hard and retired at 55.
House bought and paid for, my daughter studied and earned her Optometry degree.

My generation have been extremely fortunate to have had an affordable housing market.
Also benefitted from final salary pensions and for the most part a settled economy.

The youngsters today are finding life much harder than we did.
House prices at unaffordable levels, poor pensions and rubbish job prospects thanks to things such as zero hours contracts.
We haven't left much of a legacy and even now want to remove access to the EU which we have enjoyed for the last forty or more years.
Why not look around and try to see the good things rather than just moan how crap everything is.

Why not ask your Optometrist daughter if she can suggest a treatment that might open your eyes to reality ? :)

Darkroom

Darkroom
19th January 2019, 10:49 PM
I may be a dinosaur but watching people fill large shopping carts so full of pretty shrink wrapped timber at our local B&Q Superstore that they can hardly push it always makes me chuckle. *yes

There is a large timber supplier not 800 yds away where they would have paid at least 40% less but it would not have been shrink wrapped. The same applies to supermarket shopping. We have friends who freely admit when purchasing fresh meat etc. all they look at is the pack price, not the price per kilo. In such purchases, the price per kilo is the only way of determining actual costings. One younger married friend states "we don't do kilo's"

We have become a nation of fast food and convenience shoppers who are happy to forfeit value, quality and service in favour of ease. Frankly if being a dinosaur means the opposite of that then so be it.

Darkroom

MJ224
19th January 2019, 10:59 PM
Being here feels just like one of those photo clubs populated by dinosaurs.
If you are a working person especially a mother too how on earth can you shop like that daily.
Apart from time, money also comes into the equation which is in short supply after years of enforced austerity
May I ask are you all retired because in general you seem out of touch with the modern world

I retired two years ago, after selling my business...…………..

I am just loving getting out of touch with the modern world, certainly some aspects of it. But the bits I like I am very much in touch with...

One day you might have that pleasure too...………...*chr

Tram
19th January 2019, 11:14 PM
You have got the scent of blood now, give it your best shot.
Let that pent up rage out, would you be this outspoken face to face, I doubt it.

Laughable if it wasn't so sad

MJ224
19th January 2019, 11:20 PM
Sorry Tram, not sure who is the most laughable....:)

Keep cool, we are all friends here...*chr, I enjoy a laugh or two.*yes

Harold Gough
20th January 2019, 07:52 AM
How ever did our parents manage in the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's without huge supermarkets, deep freezers, mobile phones, credit cards and multi-car ownership?

In the 1950s, we went to the corner shop, no Asian owners then, Spuds came our of an opens sack, as did carrots. The only frozen food, apart from ice creams and (shop-made) ice lollies was peas. There were no such tjhhing as ready meals.

We went to the local bakery (5 minute walk) where the bread and cakes were made, or we could have delivered by horse-drawn van. Milk from the local dairy was delivered by horse-drawn, two-wheeled cart. A bit later on a local lad would go around this houses with his van stocked with veg and (I think) groceries. The local off licence was one of two semi-detached shops, the other being groceries.

Children's clothes were sold by a shop a mile away and we had a very good hardware shop a bit closer. We also had a Cohen's, the small shop precursor of Tesco.

In those days, the law required shops to close at 6pm. Our corner shop operated later via his back door.

My father was a dedicated allotment enthusiast and we kept chickens and rabbits.

Harold

TimP
20th January 2019, 08:55 AM
In the 1950s, we went to the corner shop, no Asian owners then, Spuds came our of an opens sack, as did carrots. The only frozen food, apart from ice creams and (shop-made) ice lollies was peas. There were no such tjhhing as ready meals.

We went to the local bakery (5 minute walk) where the bread and cakes were made, or we could have delivered by horse-drawn van. Milk from the local dairy was delivered by horse-drawn, two-wheeled cart. A bit later on a local lad would go around this houses with his van stocked with veg and (I think) groceries. The local off licence was one of two semi-detached shops, the other being groceries.

Children's clothes were sold by a shop a mile away and we had a very good hardware shop a bit closer. We also had a Cohen's, the small shop precursor of Tesco.

In those days, the law required shops to close at 6pm. Our corner shop operated later via his back door.

My father was a dedicated allotment enthusiast and we kept chickens and rabbits.

Harold

this!

Same memories, corner shop let you buy stuff on ‘tick’ (written in a book, paid up monthly). There was a van that drove around selling veg, all sold loose from sacks in the back. You lived within your means then. Wish that shops would close at 6.00pm now, same with pubs - ridiculous staying open till 3.00am. No doubt the patrons all moan they can’t afford to get on the housing ladder. No **** Sherlock, you’re spending all your money in the pub and probably not working the next day cos you’re still pissed.

When I got married all we could afford after saving for and getting a house / mortgage was second hand everything. I think we got a new oven as a wedding present but everything else was bought from colleagues at work. I get the impression that nowadays, yes housing is more expensive (despite us paying over 15% interest on our mortgage) but youngsters want to have their cake and eat it too, they can’t possibly exist without a new iPhone every year, got to have Spotify, Netflix. Absolutey must get married in Vegas with the stag do in Dublin..... frankly they need to knuckle down, get saving and not be so bloody entitled. Oh, and the gummint needs to stop throwing money and free housing at feckless young women that spend all their time on their backs and not getting out there and supporting themselves..... just saying.

wornish
20th January 2019, 09:06 AM
............
........Why not look around and try to see the good things rather than just moan how crap everything is.


You seem to be the one doing just that*yes

Harold Gough
20th January 2019, 10:19 AM
I forgot to mention: in the 1950s, old folks who couldn't, or would rather not, go to the corner shop would ask us to go a give us "a penny for going". I think we were our on the (dead-end) street so much that they just opened their front door and called us.

In those days, very few people owned cars (or had phones). Driving to collect a "weekly shop" was not an option.

Harold

Darkroom
20th January 2019, 10:28 AM
You have got the scent of blood now, give it your best shot.
Let that pent up rage out, would you be this outspoken face to face, I doubt it.

Laughable if it wasn't so sad

:confused:

Are we supposed to take that comment and any future ones you make seriously ?

Darkroom

MJ224
20th January 2019, 10:30 AM
:confused:

Are we supposed to take that comment and any future ones you make seriously ?

Darkroom

Hopefully Tram was just under the weather a little. Today is new, so hopefully yesterday is tucked away...……..*chr

Darkroom
20th January 2019, 10:35 AM
Hopefully Tram was just under the weather a little. Today is new, so hopefully yesterday is tucked away...……..*chr

As in most things, only time will tell, but we can and do live in hopes *chr


Darkroom

Otto
20th January 2019, 11:08 AM
This thread seems to have rapidly degenerated into Monty Python's "Four Yorkshiremen" sketch! Yeah, we lived in't shoebox in t'middle o't'road :D. Meanwhile I feel very much a youngster here; I'm only 66 ;).

Sadly the pressures of modern life have lead us to where we are now, and I think reality is beginning to dawn on people. Perhaps eventually we can return to the more relaxed (but admittedly less comfortable) times we enjoyed before Mrs T started the rot ...

Harold Gough
20th January 2019, 11:10 AM
Sadly the pressures of modern life have lead us to where we are now, and I think reality is beginning to dawn on people. Perhaps eventually we can return to the more relaxed (but admittedly less comfortable) times we enjoyed before Mrs T started the rot ...

That will not happen while we have mobile phones and the 24/7 working culture and "social media".

Harold

wornish
20th January 2019, 11:16 AM
If you had a free choice and a magic wand, which country in the world would you prefer to live in?
Assuming your family would be there as well if you wanted that.

Harold Gough
20th January 2019, 11:22 AM
If you had a free choice and a magic wand, which country in the world would you prefer to live in?
Assuming your family would be there as well if you wanted that.

Utopia! :D

Harold

Harold Gough
20th January 2019, 11:35 AM
I feel very much a youngster here; I'm only 66 ;).


You have your best grumping days ahead of you. :D

Harold

Jim Ford
20th January 2019, 11:45 AM
Perhaps eventually we can return to the more relaxed (but admittedly less comfortable) times we enjoyed before Mrs T started the rot ...

Talk of the Devil:

I saw in the news today that 40% of homes that were bought under Thatcher's right to buy scheme, are now owned by private landlords and rented out at much higher than council rents.

Jim

Jim Ford
20th January 2019, 11:47 AM
Meanwhile I feel very much a youngster here; I'm only 66

Oh vain and callow youth - you have much to learn of the Ways of The World! ;)

Jim

Harold Gough
20th January 2019, 12:19 PM
Talk of the Devil:

I saw in the news today that 40% of homes that were bought under Thatcher's right to buy scheme, are now owned by private landlords and rented out at much higher than council rents.

Jim

So who are the evil people who sold them to those landlords?

Harold

TimP
20th January 2019, 01:27 PM
Meanwhile I feel very much a youngster here; I'm only 66 ;).


Wow! That’s really old.......

TimP
20th January 2019, 01:32 PM
Talk of the Devil:

I saw in the news today that 40% of homes that were bought under Thatcher's right to buy scheme, are now owned by private landlords and rented out at much higher than council rents.

Jim

We all know what a totally sh1t idea that was but apparently it was happening before that woman got the blame for starting it.
Of course there is the more recent ‘help to buy’ which had an upper limit of something like £650K in the London area, now call me cynical but if you need ‘help to buy’ there is no way you should be looking at a £650K house FFS, even in London. Yet another case where free money goes to those who already have a lot of it.

TimP
20th January 2019, 01:35 PM
So who are the evil people who sold them to those landlords?

Harold

The people who were living in Council Houses who, possibly through no fault of their own, weren’t capable of running a house and who having scraped the money together to buy said house at a knockdown price strangely discovered it was worth a lot more - hence selling it at first opportunity, pocketing the wodge, spending it like water and then joining the Council housing list again, lesson learnt, tattoos inked and some nice fat gold chains around their necks.

Naughty Nigel
20th January 2019, 01:42 PM
The people who were living in Council Houses who, possibly through no fault of their own, weren’t capable of running a house and who having scraped the money together to buy said house at a knockdown price strangely discovered it was worth a lot more - hence selling it at first opportunity, pocketing the wodge, spending it like water and then joining the Council housing list again, lesson learnt, tattoos inked and some nice fat gold chains around their necks.

:D:D:D

Got it in one. :D

Mind, you forgot to mention the elderly BMW/Audi propped up on bricks in the front gardens with uncut grass all around them. :rolleyes:

Naughty Nigel
20th January 2019, 01:48 PM
So who are the evil people who sold them to those landlords?

Harold

I know of a prominent local Socialist couple who invested in TWO flats in the centre of Bristol for their sons to use whilst at university there. The cost at the time, around twenty years ago was reported to be around £500,000 in a crooked deal with an Australian property developer.

Maybe they were wicked capitalists after all. ;)

Wally
20th January 2019, 02:01 PM
Grumpy hat on::mad: It''s been the way of things for some time, that getting something for nothing has now become the norm. The old saying 'that only fools and horses work' has now come home to roost. So much so, that peoples noses are being blatently rubbed in it. Time to get the lazy barstewards out to work even if it takes a stick stuck up their a**e and stuck in a field to scare the birds away from the crops. Grumpy hat off: :D

TimP
20th January 2019, 02:56 PM
I know of a local Socialist couple who invested in TWO flats in the centre of Bristol for their sons to use whilst at university there. The cost at the time, around twenty years ago was reported to be around £500,000 in a crooked deal with an Australian property developer.

Maybe they were wicked capitalists after all. ;)

I think you’ll find they were. That and a lot more besides.

Naughty Nigel
20th January 2019, 03:21 PM
I was born in the east end, left school at 16, worked hard and retired at 55.
House bought and paid for, my daughter studied and earned her Optometry degree.

My generation have been extremely fortunate to have had an affordable housing market.

Also benefitted from final salary pensions and for the most part a settled economy.

The youngsters today are finding life much harder than we did.

House prices at unaffordable levels, poor pensions and rubbish job prospects thanks to things such as zero hours contracts.


I would suggest that you have answered your own question Tram.

Like it or not we have all been borrowing from tomorrow to pay ourselves far too much today. Apart from bankrupting private pension funds the cost of labour is now so high that it has become fashionable to employ slave labour in developing countries to do our manual work.

TimP
20th January 2019, 05:41 PM
I think you’ll find that the last Labour government need to take a lot of the blame for screwing over the pensions, Gordon Brown in particular.

MJ224
20th January 2019, 06:36 PM
I think you’ll find that the last Labour government need to take a lot of the blame for screwing over the pensions, Gordon Brown in particular.

Notwithstanding his sale of gold reserves for a quick buck as well...……..:(

Rocknroll59
20th January 2019, 07:51 PM
It's that time of year isn't it...when the heady days of mince pies and cold Turkey and pickle are now long gone, January's depressive dark damp and dismal days are the word and we all want to vent our anger at something or someone (not to mention B*****t) so once the spring arrives and we all get back outside cameras in bags and on shoulder/round neck the days grow longer and warmer perhaps we can get back to some sensibility as well..

Opinions are such a wonderful thing, made worse IMHO by today's Unsocial media...I am semi-retired and have worked since I was 16 (now nearer 70 than 60), paid tax all my working life, never been out of work always looked for work and paid my way...i'm not responsible for the huge increase in house prices (i paid my mortgage every month till I finally paid it off 6 years ago), but as the older generation we do seem to labelled as the ones who were better off whatever that meant...I do find quite a few younger people have a chip on their shoulder as if the world owes them something...it might just be me and of course not all are that way inclined, but there are many points on the last 4 pages I agree with and some I don't but hey that's life as Frank Sinatra sang about...I may get round to posting some more pics myself shortly...I haven't done so in a while.

Cheers


Peter

Naughty Nigel
20th January 2019, 08:07 PM
This thread seems to have rapidly degenerated into Monty Python's "Four Yorkshiremen" sketch! Yeah, we lived in't shoebox in t'middle o't'road :D. Meanwhile I feel very much a youngster here; I'm only 66 ;).

Sadly the pressures of modern life have lead us to where we are now, and I think reality is beginning to dawn on people. Perhaps eventually we can return to the more relaxed (but admittedly less comfortable) times we enjoyed before Mrs T started the rot ...

Mrs T is blamed for many things, often justifiably, but others have been just as much to blame, if not more.

One of our biggest mistakes, in my view, was the decimation of public transport in the 1960's, forcing many to drive cars every day of the week when they had previously relied on trains and buses. This was followed by vast new housing estates built well away from transport links, again forcing the masses onto the roads.

It didn't help that we had a succession of transport ministers who were either corrupt, incompetent non-drivers, or both.

Antisocial media and the internet is quite rightly blamed for many of today's ills, but it all started much earlier. In fact I strongly believe that the private motor car does more to promote social isolation and lack of community than almost any other factor in the modern world.

It is interesting that community is much stronger in other European countries where public transport is both comprehensive and affordable.

Naughty Nigel
20th January 2019, 08:12 PM
If you had a free choice and a magic wand, which country in the world would you prefer to live in?
Assuming your family would be there as well if you wanted that.

Italy. *yes

The food, wine and weather is all a lot better than here in the UK. The Italians are a lot more passionate about things they care for, and there are very few 'snowflakes'.

I might also suggest that there is less corruption in politics, or at least you get when you expect. ;)

Jim Ford
20th January 2019, 08:22 PM
Notwithstanding his sale of gold reserves for a quick buck as well...……..:(

Remind me where The Royal Bank of Scotland fitted into this episode. *yes

Jim

TimP
20th January 2019, 08:27 PM
...I am semi-retired and have worked since I was 16 (now nearer 70 than 60), paid tax all my working life, never been out of work always looked for work and paid my way...i'm not responsible for the huge increase in house prices (i paid my mortgage every month till I finally paid it off 6 years ago), but as the older generation we do seem to labelled as the ones who were better off whatever that meant...I do find quite a few younger people have a chip on their shoulder as if the world owes them something...it might just be me and of course not all are that way inclined.....


I think you’re right about a large proportion of the younger generation with the feeling they’re entitled and also there seems to be an ever growing sense that everything is always somebody else’s fault, never theirs.

OM USer
20th January 2019, 09:39 PM
How ever did our parents manage in the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's without huge supermarkets, deep freezers, mobile phones, credit cards and multi-car ownership?
Typically one person worked really long hours whilst the other stayed at home to look after the children, did a daily shop, and cooked fresh food every day; When the children got older the one looking after them would start doing a part time job as well.

That will not happen while we have mobile phones and the 24/7 working culture and "social media".
Agreed

If you had a free choice and a magic wand, which country in the world would you prefer to live in? Assuming your family would be there as well if you wanted that.
Xanadu. I once saw a documentatry about 4 mathematicians who decided to visit Xanadu. (My memory gives it as a place in Kyrgyzstan or Kazakhstan but Wiki gives it as a place in Mongolia). It took them a long time to get the necessary visas and travel documents as the authorities could not understand why anyone would want to go there.

Or maybe Shangri-La (Yunnan, China).

Or just away from the big smoke where I can breathe fresh air, see some trees, mountains, and lakes (or lochs).

Jim Ford
20th January 2019, 10:58 PM
Or maybe Shangri-La (Yunnan, China).

My recollection is that 'Shangri La' was a fictitious place in the Himalayas, created by James Hilton in his book 'Lost Horizon'. It was a place where people lived for hundreds of years. The hero left it in the end (but I can't remember why).

Jim

Gate Keeper
21st January 2019, 06:12 AM
I think you’ll find that the last Labour government need to take a lot of the blame for screwing over the pensions, Gordon Brown in particular.

Have you seen the latest pension news? The government are also at it, hoping no one notices. See link:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/1074084/state-pension-news-age-uk-changes/amp

Harold Gough
22nd January 2019, 08:28 AM
My generation have been extremely fortunate to have had an affordable housing market.

Which generation was that?

In the early 1970s my future wife and I were in reasonably-paid professional jobs. We really struggled to find an affordable house and had to settle for a two-bedroom, ex-council house on an estate where most were still rented.

I don't know what the starting mortgage interest rate was then, probably something like 8%?, but within a few years it went up beyond what we could afford and we had to extend the 25 years to 39 years. In the mid 80s we, in a second house, found ourselves paying 15% (plus 1.5% for the privilege of having such a large loan, £35,000).

Today's generation have interest rates undreamed of a few decades ago. I wouldn't say they have it easy but to claim that their generation are much worse off than we were is farcical.

Harold

TimP
22nd January 2019, 09:04 AM
Which generation was that?

In the early 1970s my future wife and I were in reasonably-paid professional jobs. We really struggled to find an affordable house and had to settle for a two-bedroom, ex-council house on an estate where most were still rented.

I don't know what the starting mortgage interest rate was then, probably something like 8%?, but within a few years it went up beyond what we could afford and we had to extend the 25 years to 39 years. In the mid 80s we, in a second house, found ourselves paying 15% (plus 1.5% for the privilege of having such a large loan, £35,000).

Today's generation have interest rates undreamed of a few decades ago. I wouldn't say they have it easy but to claim that their generation are much worse off than we were is farcical.

Harold

Have to agree here. Going back to my earlier comments I think half the problem is that they (today’s generation) seem to want it all whereas we saved every penny we could, only bought what we could afford, secondhand where necessary and were thankful for it and felt a sense of pride and achievement. Houses do cost more in comparison to today’s wages as I think we were able to borrow something like 3 or 4 times the main salary against the house price. That amount won’t get you very far nowadays but again young people don’t seem to want to compromise either - most would turn their noses up at an ex-Council house thinking they deserved better whereas you saw an opportunity and presumably made the best of it. Who to blame? Probably the media for selling a mostly unachievable dream.

wornish
22nd January 2019, 09:10 AM
I see the dinosaur post has now been removed.

TimP
22nd January 2019, 09:15 AM
I see the dinosaur post has now been removed.

Which one was that?

MJ224
22nd January 2019, 09:20 AM
Which generation was that?

In the early 1970s my future wife and I were in reasonably-paid professional jobs. We really struggled to find an affordable house and had to settle for a two-bedroom, ex-council house on an estate where most were still rented.

I don't know what the starting mortgage interest rate was then, probably something like 8%?, but within a few years it went up beyond what we could afford and we had to extend the 25 years to 39 years. In the mid 80s we, in a second house, found ourselves paying 15% (plus 1.5% for the privilege of having such a large loan, £35,000).

Today's generation have interest rates undreamed of a few decades ago. I wouldn't say they have it easy but to claim that their generation are much worse off than we were is farcical.

Harold

I think the problem for the youngsters today is raising the deposit. My first house in 1970 cost £5000, and a £500 deposit from my dad secured it. Without my parents help it would have been difficult to raise the deposit. (£2000 salary!) Today I sympathise with the modern generation trying to save up 10's of thousands squids deposits. Added to which the housing prices are too high, partly because of the private renting people. Don't think its our older generation so much, but there are many wealthy people who hoover up relatively cheap housing to rent out.

And I have to say our consumerist way of life does present too many temptations in all of our eyes, with cars, phones, computers etc. None of us are above that...…….

IMHO, housing should not be commercial, but how that can be achieved I am unsure...……….:(

wornish
22nd January 2019, 09:24 AM
Which one was that?

The post by Tram.
It is still shown as a quote in the post by Nigel #20 and the one by me #21

Harold Gough
22nd January 2019, 09:30 AM
Who to blame? Probably the media for selling a mostly unachievable dream.

Advertising and TV series like "Friends" where lifestyles are way beyond realistic. Then, presumably, there is peer pressure from social media, etc.

Harold

Darkroom
22nd January 2019, 09:39 AM
I see the dinosaur post has now been removed.

It's still here on my pooter Dave. See post #12

Darkroom

Phill D
22nd January 2019, 09:39 AM
I have to say I don't know why the dinosaur post would have been removed if it has. Seemed fine to me, it was just someone's opinion for others to agree or disagree with. As are most of the posts on this thread. Well hopefully Tram will return and post a few more of his/her own.
Not posting anything else now as the sun is shining!

Darkroom
22nd January 2019, 09:50 AM
I have to say I don't know why the dinosaur post would have been removed if it has. Seemed fine to me, it was just someone's opinion for others to agree or disagree with. As are most of the posts on this thread. Well hopefully Tram will return and post a few more of his/her own.
Not posting anything else now as the sun is shining!

Tram's other post was strange:

You have got the scent of blood now, give it your best shot.
Let that pent up rage out, would you be this outspoken face to face, I doubt it.

Laughable if it wasn't so sad

Darkroom

Harold Gough
22nd January 2019, 09:53 AM
I have to say I don't know why the dinosaur post would have been removed if it has. Seemed fine to me, it was just someone's opinion for others to agree or disagree with. As are most of the posts on this thread. Well hopefully Tram will return and post a few more of his/her own.
Not posting anything else now as the sun is shining!

All I can says is that, if you are going to use terms like "dinosaur" to indicate what you consider to be outdated, don't call yourself "Tram". :rolleyes:

Harold

wornish
22nd January 2019, 10:08 AM
Very strange its back now. Perhaps it was me having a dinosaur moment.

Naughty Nigel
22nd January 2019, 10:08 AM
Which generation was that?

In the early 1970s my future wife and I were in reasonably-paid professional jobs. We really struggled to find an affordable house and had to settle for a two-bedroom, ex-council house on an estate where most were still rented.

I don't know what the starting mortgage interest rate was then, probably something like 8%?, but within a few years it went up beyond what we could afford and we had to extend the 25 years to 39 years. In the mid 80s we, in a second house, found ourselves paying 15% (plus 1.5% for the privilege of having such a large loan, £35,000).

Today's generation have interest rates undreamed of a few decades ago. I wouldn't say they have it easy but to claim that their generation are much worse off than we were is farcical.

Harold

That is very true Harold. The base rate had gone DOWN to 8.5% when I bought my first house in 1987, but then went back up to 13% and then 15% in the following years!

Like many others I was 'sold' an endowment mortgage, which seemed a good idea at the time and promised a big payout when the policy matured, but actually left a shortfall of around £18,000 at maturity. :(

The problem now is that the younger generations have somehow gained totally unrealistic expectations, and need to buy so many 'must haves' before they can think about unimportant matters such as somewhere to live.

TimP
22nd January 2019, 10:11 AM
The post by Tram.
It is still shown as a quote in the post by Nigel #20 and the one by me #21

Thanks, yes I’d forgotten that one. I have to agree with your comments and add that I think that as far as ‘life’ is concerned then we are far more in touch with it and all the practicalities that go with it. Poor snowflakes, spending small fortunes on evenings out, huge amounts for mobile phone contracts, expecting stag do’s in places like Latvia etc, then getting married in Vegas then the poor darlings moan about not being able to afford a deposit, bless the little possums.
Yes, my parents helped us when we got married and bought a house and we’ve certainly helped our son onto the ladder (a one bedroom flat - he’s realistic!)
I love the way people moan about the elder generation, seemingly forgetting that they too will get old and it’ll come quicker than they think!

TimP
22nd January 2019, 10:13 AM
All I can says is that, if you are going to use terms like "dinosaur" to indicate what you consider to be outdated, don't call yourself "Tram". :rolleyes:

Harold

Excellent! Touché

Naughty Nigel
22nd January 2019, 10:24 AM
Advertising and TV series like "Friends" where lifestyles are way beyond realistic. Then, presumably, there is peer pressure from social media, etc.

Harold

Indeed.

More to the point, all of the characters in Friends and other soaps have 'ordinary' jobs, yet live impossible lifestyles in houses with massive designer kitchens and so forth. Is it any wonder then that the gullible fall into the trap of thinking they too can live a millionaire's lifestyle on a checkout operator's wage? :rolleyes:

Last Friday's BBC 'Pause of Thought' included a couple of quotes which I thought were very appropriate to this thred.

"A wise man doesn't waste money buying things he doesn't need to impress people he doesn't know"; and,

"Most of those who are unhappy with their lives are only unhappy because of their expectations of life; not because they have bad lives".

Naughty Nigel
22nd January 2019, 10:32 AM
Talking about people with inflated opinions of themselves.

I see Dancing on Ice has been cancelled because someone has broken the ice!

https://scontent.flhr2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50466362_1474066879391308_8550844252098134016_n.jp g?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr2-1.fna&oh=53b24d6a77b665aa362efb9eafdd7cae&oe=5CC56B09

Harold Gough
22nd January 2019, 10:35 AM
Like many others I was 'sold' an endowment mortgage, which seemed a good idea at the time and promised a big payout when the policy matured, but actually left a shortfall of around £18,000 at maturity. :

I had forgotten about that. Our mortgage was "found" for us by an insurance salesman. He found it at the BS where I had been saving. We had to take out endowment insurance as part of the deal. I gave that some thought and, within about 3 months, cancelled the insurance to the wrath of the salesman. I don't know about any other technicalities but we paid a normal repayment mortgage on that house for 10 years.

Harold

Wally
22nd January 2019, 10:36 AM
Indeed.

More to the point, all of the characters in Friends and other soaps have 'ordinary' jobs, yet live impossible lifestyles in houses with massive designer kitchens and so forth. Is it any wonder then that the gullible fall into the trap of thinking they too can live a millionaire's lifestyle on a checkout operator's wage? :rolleyes:

Last Friday's BBC 'Pause of Thought' included a couple of quotes which I thought were very appropriate to this thred.
--> "A wise man doesn't waste money buying things he doesn't need to impress people he doesn't know"; and,

--> "Most of those who are unhappy with their lives are only unhappy because of their expectations; not because they have bad lives".
Unfortunately, that kind of thinking / advice is considered to belong in the dark ages and bears no relation to real life in the 21st Century. :rolleyes:

TimP
22nd January 2019, 10:41 AM
Then there’s the easy, too easy, access to credit. People overstretch themselves then wonder why they are in huge debt. Some probably then go bankrupt, debt is wiped out and we no doubt fund them with benefits, all because of their stupidity.

Ooh, I love a good moan!

Wally
22nd January 2019, 10:54 AM
Then there’s the easy, too easy, access to credit. People overstretch themselves then wonder why they are in huge debt. Some probably then go bankrupt, debt is wiped out and we no doubt fund them with benefits, all because of their stupidity.

--> Ooh, I love a good moan!


:tup Me too. Although I have recently found that one has to get in early on here to get to the front of the queue... another one of my moans. ;)

Harold Gough
22nd January 2019, 11:03 AM
Ooh, I love a good moan!

But they aren't what they were in the old days!

Harold

Naughty Nigel
22nd January 2019, 11:24 AM
I was at a meeting last night. One of the committee members, who has a bob or two mentioned that his son-in-law had come to him, cap in hand to help out with repairs to his Range Rover.

Apparently one of the rear brakes was making a horrible sound so he took it to an independent garage who told him that the pads were down to the metal and needed to be replaced. The offending calliper was also seized.

Son-in-law was given an estimate of £350 for a set of pads and disks and a replacement (second-hand) calliper. He said he couldn't afford it after Christmas, explaining that his credit cards were on their limit so he called his father in law on his new iPhone-X.

Not wanting his daughter to be driven around in a death trap my friend went along to the garage where it transpired that the front disks and pads were also unsafe, and one of the tyres had three nails in it.

The total cost of repairs was £550, which was beyond the means of this Range Rover driver to afford.

From my own experience of JLR parts I would say it was very reasonable, but this story raises so many questions about the feckless millennial generation. :mad:

Wally
22nd January 2019, 11:33 AM
But they aren't what they were in the old days! Harold


True. But now we have the i'net we can moan about things we neither know nor care about. As we're now spoilt for choice... we have something else to moan about. :tup *yes ;)

Harold Gough
22nd January 2019, 11:35 AM
I was at a meeting last night. One of the committee members, who has a bob or two mentioned that his son-in-law had come to him, cap in hand to help out with repairs to his Range Rover.

Apparently one of the rear brakes was making a horrible sound so he took it to an independent garage who told him that the pads were down to the metal and needed to be replaced. The offending calliper was also seized.

Son-in-law was given an estimate of £350 for a set of pads and disks and a replacement (second-hand) calliper. He said he couldn't afford it after Christmas, explaining that his credit cards were on their limit so he called his father in law on his new iPhone-X.

Not wanting his daughter to be driven around in a death trap my friend went along to the garage where it transpired that the front disks and pads were also unsafe, and one of the tyres had three nails in it.

The total cost of repairs was £550, which was beyond the means of this Range Rover driver to afford.

From my own experience of JLR parts I would say it was very reasonable, but this story raises so many questions about the feckless millennial generation. :mad:

That the RR was allowed to get to this state suggests that it was too new for an MOT to have given prior warning.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
22nd January 2019, 11:44 AM
That the RR was allowed to get to this state suggests that it was too new for an MOT to have given prior warning.

Harold

I gather it is around four years old, but a year is a long time on the road. Clearly it has been badly neglected and warning signs ignored.

However, my point is this: the only reason that anyone buys a Range Rover (or an iPhone-X for that matter) is to impress others with your apparent success.

The reality is often very different though.

Wally
22nd January 2019, 11:48 AM
That the RR was allowed to get to this state suggests that it was too new for an MOT to have given prior warning. Harold


I suppose, one can also presume the son-in-law wasn't named Philip?

Naughty Nigel
22nd January 2019, 11:50 AM
I suppose, one can also presume the son-in-law wasn't named Philip?

No, and he is much, much younger.

Anyhow, I gather Philip's was a Freelander or something.

I must remember to put my seat belt on though. :rolleyes:

Otto
22nd January 2019, 11:52 AM
That the RR was allowed to get to this state suggests that it was too new for an MOT to have given prior warning.


Surely a vehicle as poncy and expensive as a Range Rover would have brake pad wear warning lights?


I just noticed a note on the invoice for the recent service for my Alfa that the rear brake pads are "crumbling", and the repair estimate for new discs and pads is £251. I'm unimpressed on a three year old car with only 21k miles on the clock! My previous Saab used to eat rear discs and pads too. What do they make them out of these days? Single-use plastics? :D.

Naughty Nigel
22nd January 2019, 11:57 AM
Surely a vehicle as poncy and expensive as a Range Rover would have brake pad wear warning lights?



Yes they do, but Christmas was coming and the credit cards were already maxed out Gordon Brown style so the warnings were ignored. :rolleyes:

With regard to brake disks and pads I use EBC with Green Stuff pads. They are much cleaner than OEM and last longer.

Wally
22nd January 2019, 12:07 PM
Surely a vehicle as poncy and expensive as a Range Rover would have brake pad wear warning lights?


I just noticed a note on the invoice for the recent service for my Alfa that the rear brake pads are "crumbling", and the repair estimate for new discs and pads is £251. I'm unimpressed on a three year old car with only 21k miles on the clock! My previous Saab used to eat rear discs and pads too.--> What do they make them out of these days? Single-use plastics? :D.


Probably cardboard which is re-cyclable, whereas, some plastics are not. ;)

Wally
22nd January 2019, 12:09 PM
No, and he is much, much younger.

Anyhow, I gather Philip's was a --> Freelander or something.

I must remember to put my seat belt on though. :rolleyes:


I think the word you were looking for was / is Freeloader. ;)

TimP
22nd January 2019, 12:14 PM
No, and he is much, much younger.

Anyhow, I gather Philip's was a Freeloader or something.


Fixed it for you.

B*gger, beaten to it!

TimP
22nd January 2019, 12:22 PM
I gather it is around four years old, but a year is a long time on the road. Clearly it has been badly neglected and warning signs ignored.

However, my point is this: the only reason that anyone buys a Range Rover (or an iPhone-X for that matter) is to impress others with your apparent success.

The reality is often very different though.

Funny, I wouldn’t have thought a Range Rover was compatible with saving for a mortgage, similarly the same applies to a new iPhone. No doubt young snowflake will soon learn the error of his ways, or maybe not if his brakes fail.

TimP
22nd January 2019, 12:23 PM
Surely a vehicle as poncy and expensive as a Range Rover would have brake pad wear warning lights?


I just noticed a note on the invoice for the recent service for my Alfa that the rear brake pads are "crumbling", and the repair estimate for new discs and pads is £251. I'm unimpressed on a three year old car with only 21k miles on the clock! My previous Saab used to eat rear discs and pads too. What do they make them out of these days? Single-use plastics? :D.

What sort of driving style wears out rear pads?? Or are they needing replacement due to excess wear caused by rust pitting?

Otto
22nd January 2019, 01:42 PM
What sort of driving style wears out rear pads?? Or are they needing replacement due to excess wear caused by rust pitting?


The Saab's rear discs did pit rather badly, not sure about the current car. If I knew it was down to my driving I'd be able to do something about it, but the garage says it's most likely due to spending too much time parked. Which I can do something about I suppose :).

Beagletorque
22nd January 2019, 04:25 PM
I suppose the a little guy becomes a big guy at some point.

Wally
22nd January 2019, 04:40 PM
The Saab's rear discs did pit rather badly, not sure about the current car. If I knew it was down to my driving I'd be able to do something about it, but --> the garage says it's most likely due to spending too much time parked. Which I can do something about I suppose :).

From recent experience, I'm inclined to agree with the garage. I had my car serviced and MOT'd and almost immediately had it SORN'd for nearly two years.

Thinking I was going to be able to drive again, I had it readied and was hit with the bad news - a bill for new pads, disks etc. I was again informed I couldn't drive so another SORN was taken out. A year later - still ongoing - I am unable to drive.

My daughter now has the car... I have the bill for replacement pads and disks which deteriorated primarily because of lack of use in just over a year.

The good news, is that my bus pass gets to see the light of day roughly once a week and I, get to see the sights instead of having to watch out for numpties or where I'm going.

Naughty Nigel
22nd January 2019, 04:52 PM
Funny, I wouldn’t have thought a Range Rover was compatible with saving for a mortgage, similarly the same applies to a new iPhone. No doubt young snowflake will soon learn the error of his ways, or maybe not if his brakes fail.

Exactly. That irony of this situation wasn't lost on me either.

I'm sure the RR is a very nice car if you can afford to buy and run one, but they are incredibly expensive in all departments, which is precisely why most people buy them; to impress others with their wealth and success.

Likewise spending £1,000 plus on a mobile phone.

There is also the belief that driving a massive 4 x 4 protects your family from others on the road, which again is rather ironic in this case.

As I said earlier, a wise man doesn't waste money on things he doesn't need to impress people he doesn't know.


What sort of driving style wears out rear pads?? Or are they needing replacement due to excess wear caused by rust pitting?

It is a common problem, caused in the main by Electric Parking Brakes which do not fully release when driving.

I had to replace the rear pads on my Jag after just 18,000 miles for this very same reason. The fronts were like new.

Otto
22nd January 2019, 05:13 PM
Thankfully my car doesn't have an electric parking brake. I had a Vauxhall Insignia hire car for a few days which did, and thought it a daft idea, like the American cars that have a foot-operated one. It might be OK on an automatic but not in a manual car, even one with hill-hold (which mine does have).

As a matter of interest Nigel what are EBC? The price I was quoted for new pads etc was for pattern parts, not OEM, but they didn't specify the make.

TimP
22nd January 2019, 05:21 PM
EBC are a well known maker of pads (I know this from my days riding motorcycles)

Naughty Nigel
22nd January 2019, 05:27 PM
Thankfully my car doesn't have an electric parking brake. I had a Vauxhall Insignia hire car for a few days which did, and thought it a daft idea, like the American cars that have a foot-operated one. It might be OK on an automatic but not in a manual car, even one with hill-hold (which mine does have).

As a matter of interest Nigel what are EBC? The price I was quoted for new pads etc was for pattern parts, not OEM, but they didn't specify the make.

As Tim says, EBC is a well known maker of disks, pads and brake drums amongst others.

They are not the cheapest, but their quality is the best I have found.

Interestingly, the alloy they use to cast brake disks does not seem to rust anywhere as near as badly as OEM disks.

Otto
22nd January 2019, 05:34 PM
Thanks, I've never heard of EBC but then I no longer do my own car maintenance! My car has Brembo brakes if that makes any difference. As my Saab 9-5's discs pitted much more badly than the four 9000s which preceded it, I put it down to them being from the GM parts bin as the 9-5 was more Vauxhall Vectra than Saab!

Naughty Nigel
22nd January 2019, 08:49 PM
Thanks, I've never heard of EBC but then I no longer do my own car maintenance! My car has Brembo brakes if that makes any difference. As my Saab 9-5's discs pitted much more badly than the four 9000s which preceded it, I put it down to them being from the GM parts bin as the 9-5 was more Vauxhall Vectra than Saab!

Brembo make very nice and expensive callipers, but I don't know if they cast all of their own disks. EBC supply drilled disks like Brembo's so maybe Brembo buy them in.

In any case EBC will almost certainly supply disks to fit your braking system, and the quality is good.

I buy my own and ask the garage to fit them for me. Our local Fast Fit centre (Croxdale) will fit them for £25 a corner. Stratstones will also fit customer's parts but their charges are higher.

Otto
22nd January 2019, 09:53 PM
The main difference as far as I can see is the calipers are painted red! The discs are not drilled.

Naughty Nigel
23rd January 2019, 12:14 AM
The main difference as far as I can see is the calipers are painted red! The discs are not drilled.

I think you will find the Brembo callipers have two or even four cylinders, rather than the usual single cylinder on normal production vehicles. he idea is to apply greater braking pressure over a larger area, and with less distortion of the friction pads.

Slotted or drilled disks are optional. The benefits are mainly cosmetic but they double the cost.

OM USer
23rd January 2019, 11:38 AM
I thought the idea with slotted or drilled disks was to allow the expansion of the hot air caused by hard braking to be "absorbed" by the disk rather than producing a cushion of air between disk and brake material. The hot air dissipated as the disk turned and that part was no longer in contact with the brake material. Somewhat akin to the sipes in tyres I suppose.

I had a Citroen XM that ate brake disks and pads. My local mechanic put it down to the heavy bodyshell (dipped galvanised to prevent rust) and softer material that is used these days for the brake disk. The XM's had a foot operated parking brake and no hill start facility - but you got used to it.

My current car ate a bake pad and disk in about a week when a piece of gravel got stuck between the two! Check regularly and immediately on hearing any unusual sound.

I also use green stuff pads as they produce less brake dust and (or are meant to) give slightly better stopping power than standard pads.

wornish
23rd January 2019, 11:40 AM
This thread seems to have become a discussion on cars and motorcycles
Just saying :confused:

Jim Ford
23rd January 2019, 11:57 AM
EBC are a well known maker of pads (I know this from my days riding motorcycles)

Brake pads on a motorcycle! I used to buy drum brake linings and rivet them on - not forgetting to chamfer the leading edges.

Jim

Jim Ford
23rd January 2019, 12:00 PM
I thought the idea with slotted or drilled disks was to allow the expansion of the hot air caused by hard braking to be "absorbed" by the disk rather than producing a cushion of air between disk and brake material. The hot air dissipated as the disk turned and that part was no longer in contact with the brake material. Somewhat akin to the sipes in tyres I suppose.

I'm guessing, but I would think that the slots/holes were to clear any debris or water.

Jim

TimP
23rd January 2019, 12:19 PM
Brake pads on a motorcycle! I used to buy drum brake linings and rivet them on - not forgetting to chamfer the leading edges.

Jim

Yep, pads at both ends, two sets at the front and a single much smaller one at the rear!
Your memories are from a time when stopping distance was measured in minutes.

Naughty Nigel
23rd January 2019, 12:39 PM
Brake pads on a motorcycle! I used to buy drum brake linings and rivet them on - not forgetting to chamfer the leading edges.

Jim

Me too, and we are both still here to tell the tale. :)

Naughty Nigel
23rd January 2019, 12:41 PM
I'm guessing, but I would think that the slots/holes were to clear any debris or water.

Jim

That is the idea, but the benefit on road going vehicles is questionable.

Holes drilled in brake disks can be noisy when braking and also encourage stress cracking.

Jim Ford
23rd January 2019, 10:27 PM
That is the idea, but the benefit on road going vehicles is questionable.

Holes drilled in brake disks can be noisy when braking and also encourage stress cracking.

The edges of the holes should be radiused with a smooth finish. Any surface flaw is a potential nucleus of a crack. On gas turbine engines I've been involved with, a certain number of cracks were permitted between air dilution holes in the combustion chamber liner.

Jim

Naughty Nigel
23rd January 2019, 11:57 PM
The edges of the holes should be radiused with a smooth finish. Any surface flaw is a potential nucleus of a crack. On gas turbine engines I've been involved with, a certain number of cracks were permitted between air dilution holes in the combustion chamber liner.

Jim

That is correct. However, I know of several people, admittedly racing motorcyclists, who had problems with cast iron or stainless steel brake disks either cracking, or in one case breaking altogether owing to stress originating at holes.

Brake disks are obviously subject to a lot of mechanical stress, plus the thermal stresses caused by sudden heating and cooling, which in extreme cases also affects temper.