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Dewi9
23rd November 2018, 11:58 PM
I have no idea if there has been a thread on this topic before, if so then I apolgise.

Like many of our members I am being pestered to have a smart meter installed on the grounds that it will save me money.

My question, unanswered by my utility company so far, is 'What is in it for me ?'. I know the company will gain by not having to employ meter readers and thus add to their bottom line so what will I get out of it ?

An article in the Sunday Mail, Sept 2017 ( https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-4846700/Smart-meters-cost-household-420.html ) suggests every household will fork out £420 towards the total cost (£billions) of the project.

In return each household will save around £23 off their annual bill, £13 of which would be the cost of meter readings over the year. Not a lot really then.

Other (scary) articles on the www seem to show a remote 'master switch' built into the electric meter which can shut off your power if you have not paid your bill. I do not know the truth of this.

The meters themselves appear to show gas / electric useage as it happens, well maybe updated every few seconds, the idea being that we will turn off things to save ourselves money. But who does not do that already ?

Ridiculous figures are given for savings - the latest I saw was an £80 savings per annum by turning off appliances rather than leaving them on standby.

The only item I have on standby is my TV, which consumes 0.5W or about 4.3kWH per annum, costing (about) 50p at 12p per kWH. Far short of the £80 I should be saving.

I read somewhere that electricity had a variable pricing over the day, which changed by the minute. IF my smart meter applied those pricings to my bill and showed me the costs by the minute then I could maybe be persuaded to get one installed.

Currently I am not convinced. What does anyone else think ?

David

TimP
24th November 2018, 08:04 AM
The meters in themselves won’t save you a penny. You will have to be proactive and see what’s costing you the most and adjust accordingly. They are all about saving the utility companies money by not having to employ meter readers and at some point it’s planned to introduce ‘time of use’ charging whereby it will adjust rates so that at peak times you could be charged a premium on the normal rates. If you want to save money then the only way to do this is to use less of the things that really eat up the juice, i.e. mainly anything that heats anything up. I already take regular meter readings ( and enter them into an app called ‘Meters’ on my iPad - brilliant BTW) and have got historical data from 6+ years. Yes, things like chargers and stuff on standby plus fridges and freezers will have a cost but frankly it pales into insignificance compared to leaving the tumble drier on for an hour too long. I don’t think an in home display (IHD) will make any difference as people soon forget its even there. If you care about reducing your electricity usage then you will already be reading your meters and understanding what uses the higher amounts of elec.

Wally
24th November 2018, 08:34 AM
I would hold off for the time being. Smart meters don't always work as I found to my cost when I had them fitted.

The main contact for the system is through a mobile network and, as far as I know the gas speaks to the electric to send readings. Distance and objects like thick walls etc., cause problems with the systems internal comms. Three visits from Amey didn't cure the issue. In fact the replacement meter couldn't even find a signal?

Speaking to various call centres just exacerbated the escalating issue(s). I ended up having 17 bills in two months in which readings overlapped and jumped back and forwards. and bills being backdated three months prior to the meters being fitted with differing opening / closing balance - credits becoming debits etc., on bills received prior to the meter fitting?? A total nightmare which going through the Ombudsman, just made matters worse. Apparently, my - 17 bills - were correct and totally unambiguous?

If they get fitted, you won't be able to revert back and, in essence, you have to continue to provide meter readings. Even the Mark 2 meters are having problems so, as I said, hold off for the time being. Put in a dual fuel monthly reading and job sorted.

Bottom line, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Just found this... a conspiracy theory? --> https://www.emfanalysis.com/smart-meter-health-effects/

Harold Gough
24th November 2018, 08:36 AM
This is a bullshit project.

Our meter is 7 feet off the floor. To read it we would have to stand on a stool and to induce us (in our 70s) to do that would constitute a serious lack of customer care by the provider.

Harold

Ricoh
24th November 2018, 08:52 AM
I'm an analogue person, can't be doing with all this digital stuff. I prefer analogue banks and building societies, etc, so analogue elec and gas meters will stay for as long as I can hold out.

skids
24th November 2018, 09:12 AM
I spent (a horrible) 18 months working on the SMETS2 project (network side). It was obvious to all of us that the roll-out would be way over budget, late and the savings that were being put about were over optimistic. To answer David's question about remote disconnection the answer is yes they can (be it an individual property or a whole area). I saw that particular piece of functionality being tested in a Faraday cage.

I've not got them fitted and don't want them. I did have to cancel an appointment to get them fitted as our supplier told my wife we had to get them fitted (which was a straight lie).

Otto
24th November 2018, 09:12 AM
Waste of time in my opinion. British Gas wanted to install one here a few years ago but once they discovered there's no Vodafone signal here they abandoned the idea. Two energy companies later I have received no further requests to install one. I too shall resist as long as possible. I've no objection in principle to digital - my existing electricity meter has a digital readout and I submit readings to my energy company on line. My water meter is read remotely but has no "smart" features. I don't believe a smart meter would save me any money, I'm well aware of which appliances use significant amounts of power.

Harold Gough
24th November 2018, 09:19 AM
I'm an analogue person, can't be doing with all this digital stuff. I prefer analogue banks and building societies, etc, so analogue elec and gas meters will stay for as long as I can hold out.

Quite right, as the digital reading would be two seconds out of date reducing the savings we could make by turning appliances off.:D

Harold

TimP
24th November 2018, 09:35 AM
I spent (a horrible) 18 months working on the SMETS2 project (network side). It was obvious to all of us that the roll-out would be way over budget, late and the savings that were being put about were over optimistic. To answer David's question about remote disconnection the answer is yes they can (be it an individual property or a whole area). I saw that particular piece of functionality being tested in a Faraday cage.

So presumably they have 100A contactors (or electronic equivalent) built into the small package then?

TimP
24th November 2018, 09:38 AM
Waste of time in my opinion.........I don't believe a smart meter would save me any money, I'm well aware of which appliances use significant amounts of power.

And a waste of huge amounts of money, it makes one wonder if someone pushing this has a vested interest in getting it out there.

The device in itself can’t save a penny, you have to be proactive and do something to save any money and if you care enough you will probably be doing it already.

Bikie John
24th November 2018, 10:02 AM
I asked a friend who until very recently worked in the biz (installing, reading and maintaining electricity meters). He said steer well clear of them for the moment - they don't work, mainly because the infrastructure is not yet in place. There is a standard script for the installers to feign surprise when they can't get a signal. It might be OK if they could just install the meters and then they start working when the rest of the system is ready, but it is not so simple. Apparently they are still installing first-generation meters which lose all their "smart" capabilities when you switch suppliers, so you would still need a new one.

All in all it looks like a monumental cock-up, and because of its scale it's not going to be resolved any time soon.

John

Otto
24th November 2018, 10:11 AM
I have some friends who have one, and it has a fancy illuminated LCD display which itself (along with the rest of the electronics) consumes power and it's a fair bet that that power is downstream of the actual metering bit so gets added to the victim's bill :).

skids
24th November 2018, 10:35 AM
So presumably they have 100A contactors (or electronic equivalent) built into the small package then?

I don't know the mechanics of the meters themselves, all I remember is there was a mandatory requirement that all types of meters had to support 'Disable Supply'. All the requirements and test documentation are up on the Smart DCC website so quite why they try not to let this ability be widely known I don't understand.

Ricoh
24th November 2018, 11:04 AM
So presumably they have 100A contactors (or electronic equivalent) built into the small package then?

Solid state relays have been available for ages, viz

https://uk.farnell.com/crydom/84137140/ssr-gn-ip20-100a-660vac-dc-in/dp/1936403

Internaut
24th November 2018, 11:07 AM
They are utterly rubbish. We have two, and one has never successfully established a connection to the mobile network. Forget connecting to household WiFi; the design of the things is over a decade old, and they’ve been put in for the usual reason: so the gas and leccy suppliers can sack a few people and deliver more shareholder value.

Ricoh
24th November 2018, 11:10 AM
So the telemetry is via radio waves, and aluminium is optically opaque, therefore wrap the meter(s) in aluminium foil and submit manual readings. QED
(Not having one of these modern-fancy-digital-it-will-never-go-wrong-digital-meter-thingamies I have no idea if they have a read out for manual readings if the thing or network goes tits-up.)

DerekW
24th November 2018, 12:38 PM
I presume that to fit a Smart Meter they will have to switch off the electricity to the house which will then require all the clocks to be reset, the hifi to be powered down before the installation and then powered up after the power has been restored and then the hifi has to warm up again.

And then it might not work. So I will be saying no.

TimP
24th November 2018, 12:42 PM
...........and then the hifi has to warm up again.


What?

I take it then that reducing your electricity consumption is pretty low on the agenda.

DerekW
24th November 2018, 01:03 PM
Electricity is to make things work well, if keeping the kit on is required then it stays on.
The solar panels have reduced the electricity bill by one third or so. LED light bulbs have contributed as well especially the external security flood lights. The move to an OLED TV from a plasma will have made some savings. However savings that compromise performance are not tolerated.

Wally
24th November 2018, 01:18 PM
... --> (Not having one of these modern-fancy-digital-it-will-never-go-wrong-digital-meter-thingamies I have no idea if they have a read out for manual readings if the thing or network goes tits-up.)

They do. A case of pressing a few buttons. Having said that, it appears that all meters don't have the same - Mk 1 Mk 2 ??? - sequence for accessing the reading. The meters - in my case - remain blank in normal use which is possibly why you get the 'In House Display Unit' = another socket in 24/7 power mode.

Ricoh
24th November 2018, 02:14 PM
I presume that to fit a Smart Meter they will have to switch off the electricity to the house which will then require all the clocks to be reset, the hifi to be powered down before the installation and then powered up after the power has been restored and then the hifi has to warm up again.

And then it might not work. So I will be saying no.
Fridge and freezer too, but should have sufficient inertia.

A while back I had a new 'analogue' electricity meter fitted. It took the installer, a 'qualified' electrical engineer, about 15-20 minutes.

Just as well I'm an electrical engineer (more precisely an electronics engineer, but I studied both and the principles of shifting charge carriers applies to both light and heavy current) as the 'qualified' installer failed to connect the earth lead. In effect the house was left in a dangerous state until I decided to do an earth check.

sapper
24th November 2018, 02:37 PM
This is a bullshit project.

Our meter is 7 feet off the floor. To read it we would have to stand on a stool and to induce us (in our 70s) to do that would constitute a serious lack of customer care by the provider.

Harold
We cannot have a smart meter fitted. Two companies have sent a fitter and each one said someting like, sharp intake of breath? 'It Aint gonna fit in there guv".

Problem is where the meter is sited, under a kitchen cupboard, in a corner. Meter readers have to use a phone to get a reading.
But I am happy that a meter reader is sent, I don't want a smart meter.
Only problem is, I could have got cheaper fuel from one of the big companies, but one of the conditions was I had to have a smart meter fitted.

Ricoh
24th November 2018, 04:27 PM
I'm wondering how far the average male adult could throw a Smart meter. 20m?

This could become a new Olympic game. If not I'm sure the Scots could be interested, they like chucking weird things like telegraph poles; smart meters would add another dimension. ��

shenstone
24th November 2018, 04:32 PM
I agree this seems a nonsense project



Every time they called I asked "How much per unit is my bill going down when you no longer need to employ a reader or have me submit it by website" every every time they went quiet ...



With 99% of devices only working with one supplier and then stopping when you switch (which I do most years) and with the whole house fitted with low energy bulbs and with a log burner running when we are in (we use the central hearing mostly as a backup/frost protection), I think any savings to us would be minimal. I think I am better off investing in another chain saw (the current one is a bit small for the trees people have been asking me to remove) to keep us in logs



Regards
Andy

Harold Gough
24th November 2018, 04:32 PM
I'm wondering how far the average male adult could throw a Smart meter. 20m?

This could become a new Olympic game. If not I'm sure the Scots could be interested, they like chucking weird things like telegraph poles; smart meters would add another dimension. ��

Job for a gold club!

Harold

Walti
24th November 2018, 04:58 PM
Having spent a portion of my working life sorting out meter reading and billing, the conclusions I came to were:

A meter is going to cost at least £400 to install, therefore unless it issuing to create a significant saving over it's life it's not worthwhile for savings alone... The sort of calculation I would use is £400/4 years so a saving of £100/year needs to be attributable to the meter...

However....

If you are actively attempting to save energy if you don't measure it you can't assess the savings, so a portion of the cost needs to go against that.

When looking at complex electrical and gas systems then electronic sub metering with 15 minute readings makes a lot of sense... for domestic installations, go and manually read the meter and check your use vs savings you think you're making.

I have looked after estates of 3000+ buildings and looked at half-hourly billing (industrial smart meters) we didn't bother with the buildings that fell below the legal requirement for half-hourly reading as any potential savings never paid for the cost of the electricity company providing the readings!

So as has been said elsewhere, smart meters are not cost effective, for the consumer.

Where they become far more cost effective is as we start to stretch the local supply networks, the ability for the supply company to be able to switch off an area of houses, even for a short time will more than pay for the installation of the meters, so where a local supply is in danger of over-consuming it's capacity, then switching off a few loads makes sense for the distributors.... in the UK we don't experience brown-outs (the voltage falling to unusable levels) and this technology will allow that to remain the case, however we will start to see some load switching in extremis.

So there is a conspiracy behind it all - it's called network load balancing and capacity management!

There's quite a few new technologies being developed that allow for the smart meter to communicate with a kerbside box at the end of the street which allows for load management and load balancing for street level power management.

Dewi9
24th November 2018, 08:54 PM
Well, I am surprised at the response that I have got from this thread. It certainly makes interesting reading.

The general concensus seems to be that any savings to be made are down to me, the consumer, to use my judgement and turn things off when I am not using them, Surely this is just common sense ?

The previous post, from Walti, is the most interesting (to me anyway) regarding load balancing - that is the balancing of electricity generated against that which is needed by all consumers.

Over the past few hard winters we nearly reached full electrical generating capacity ( I saw a figure of 96% quoted somewhere ) and given the number of coal fired power stations being decommissioned this capacity will reduce.

The building of new Nuclear Power stations seems to have hit problems of late and wind / solar power will not fill the gap - especially at night time or on calm days.

So, can we look forward to local power cuts of limited duration via the use of smart meters or can the industry make 'micro-power cuts' of fractions of a second thus spreading the load ? ( Sort of multiplexing the electricity )

Answers on a postcard please ...

David

Walti
24th November 2018, 10:06 PM
Well, I am surprised at the response that I have got from this thread. It certainly makes interesting reading.

The general concensus seems to be that any savings to be made are down to me, the consumer, to use my judgement and turn things off when I am not using them, Surely this is just common sense ?

The previous post, from Walti, is the most interesting (to me anyway) regarding load balancing - that is the balancing of electricity generated against that which is needed by all consumers.

Over the past few hard winters we nearly reached full electrical generating capacity ( I saw a figure of 96% quoted somewhere ) and given the number of coal fired power stations being decommissioned this capacity will reduce.

The building of new Nuclear Power stations seems to have hit problems of late and wind / solar power will not fill the gap - especially at night time or on calm days.

So, can we look forward to local power cuts of limited duration via the use of smart meters or can the industry make 'micro-power cuts' of fractions of a second thus spreading the load ? ( Sort of multiplexing the electricity )

Answers on a postcard please ...

David

Yes the savings are very much your responsibility as a consumer! The thought that I keep coming back to is that "you can't control what you don't measure" so smart meters give you the consumer the information to allow you to see what you're doing.

Metering of systems in the work I've done over the last ten years or so has seen industrial reductions of 40-50% (one customer I worked with saw their energy bills change from £100M to £55M per annum, even though they increased their estate by 20%!)

As a consumer, look at the devices around your home that run for the longest times... most homes this is the refrigerator. and start there, making sure you have an A+ or an A++ wherever possible, really old refrigerators use a stunning amount of electricity in comparison with the current generation, so if you're clinging on to an old faithful machine - consider changing it! even though the scrapping of it seems like the wrong thing to do, as it hasn't completed it's life cycle, the overall savings make it worthwhile. As long as it is recycled correctly and the refrigerant captured properly, then the environmental impact of "prematurely" scrapping old machines is far outweighed by the environmental gains of reduced energy consumption.

The new generation of LED lights mean that incandescent lamps should no longer have a place in your life, again the work I've done with these with the retail industry and the manufacturers means you should have no qualms about swapping them out... just don't buy the cheapest possible, look for the highest CRI number on the packages! I have 4 and 7W lamps throughout my house (they're getting on for 6 years old and aren't halfway through their life yet!) There is a variety of colour temperatures available so choose the ones you like the warmer colours (lower K number) are most appropriate for the home, NOT the daylight and colder colours! (higher K number)

96% was a few years ago, the worst year was up to 99%. (winter 2016 if I remember correctly.)

The idea of micro power cuts is indeed what is planned, however...

One of the technologies being used around the Reading/Swindon area by SSE is the use of street end boxes that contain electronics to spread the load equally across the three phase supply that is split off to the individual homes and also to contain batteries so that the micro power cuts are not actually seen at the house!

The electricity is distributed as three phase down to street level, and then single phase supplies go to the individual dwellings, because your average domestic electrician works in single phase 99% of the time it ends up with the "Red Phase" taking most of the load often, as much as 66%, with the other 33% split across the other two phases... so rather than go around and re-wire every street adding these cabinets to the point where the supply goes back to three phase the load can be evenly spread across all three phases...

For those that are in the know about this, it's effectively a three phase inverter as used for motor drive re-applied and re-designed to allow for imbalanced loads to be spread across the 3 phases evenly, with a battery system added to allow for short power cuts of a few seconds or a minute or two at a time.

The net result of this is that as the three phase supply is now balanced the distribution network suddenly has a 20-30% increase in capacity!

wornish
24th November 2018, 10:19 PM
Excellent post Walti.

Can you please send it to BBC , ITV and the rest of the news channels and papers to force the electricity companies to do their bit and become more efficient.

They are inherently bone idle and need a big kick from time to time.

peak4
24th November 2018, 10:30 PM
We moved house from Sheffield to Buxton a little while ago, but I currently still own both houses.
In Buxton British Gas did fit Smart Meters, a little over a year ago, and changed us to a tariff which gave free electric 9-5 on Sundays.
Cost wise, it probably did work for us, dues to the Sunday savings, as I has a new garage to de-humidify and heat on Sundays. :)

In Sheffield EON are constantly sending letters and emails insisting we have new Smart meters fitted (SMs), implying that it is mandatory.
I recently instigated an on-line chat with them, when I noticed that our tariff had changed to "Temporary Tariff" on the bill.
Having checked out that Temp is cheaper than Smart Tariff, I sought clarification.

This is a summary of the chat, edited slightly for clarity, though the context remains


Info: You are now chatting with Patrick.
Info:
Me: Hello Patrick, just been chatting to one of your colleagues about having a smart meter fitted. Then I went to check on tariffs;
Your current tariff is E.ON Go Online 1 Year v8 £582.28 Lowest E.ON Smart Saver v6 £766.96 per year
So does that mean that having a SM will cost me about £180 per year extra?

Patrick:
that is your estimated spend whilst on that tariff

Patrick:
the smart meter is free installation and wont affect what is used

Me: I understand that the meter is free, but it looks like the associated tariff is higher

Patrick:
that is your estimated spend whilst on that tariff based on your usage

Patrick:
if you are logged in, it will be based on the previous 12 months usage at the property

Me: ergo, if I have a SM fitter and the tariff is changed to Smart Saver v6 then I will be paying more

Patrick:
if you change your tariff today your dd wont change

Me: No, but the tariff's dearer, so I'd likely end up in arrears

Patrick:
we will review the direct debit every 6 months to make sure you are paying the right amount

Patrick:
unfortunately on the chat we are tariff trained, but if you like i can connect you to the tariff team on phone who can go through the quote with you
we also have a tariff exclusive to uswitch / moneysupermarket, called the eon go online
you should have a look at that one and if you wanted you can go through that quote on there

Me: Which will be more expensive if the tariff's higher per unit used. Is the change to SMs compulsory for customers?

Patrick:
to go onto the smart saver tariff you will have to get a smart meter

Me: Is the change to SMs compulsory for customers?

Patrick:
in general, no the smart meter is not compulsory yet

Me: OK cheers I'll leave it a while then. :-)
Patrick:
no problem Steve, thanks for chatting with me

No I've not had one fitted yet despite several more letters.
Also, the meters are in a cellar with poor phone reception.

I do wonder if I was "chatting" to a real person, or whether it was one of the auto reply computer systems.
If the latter, I'd suggest it failed the Turing Test. If a real person...............;)

alfbranch
24th November 2018, 11:33 PM
This a stupid overpriced late project of the governments that will have real positive effects.


You save money on energy by having more efficient equipent or using whatequipment you have less.

The other way is to get the best tarif possible.


A stupid meter actually costs money not saves it.

Zuiko
25th November 2018, 09:24 AM
Excellent post Walti.

Can you please send it to BBC , ITV and the rest of the news channels and papers to force the electricity companies to do their bit and become more efficient.

They are inherently bone idle and need a big kick from time to time.

Ideally they should be nationalised, or rather never have been privatised.

Ricoh
25th November 2018, 10:13 AM
Ideally they should be nationalised, or rather never have been privatised.

Up the Red Flag, comrade!

If (or should I say when) Labour get into power, they will tax those who can offer no resistance to taxation. Increasing tax on the rich to pay for all the public spending they have planned is merely ideology. Do you think for one moment that the basic rate of income tax will remain as it is. No, they will tax the many to pay for all the idiot plans they have. Taxing the rich has been tried many times and it has minimal effect. The rich can avoid taxation, they have the means to to so, and they will.

sapper
25th November 2018, 10:49 AM
Up the Red Flag, comrade!

If (or should I say when) Labour get into power, they will tax those who can offer no resistance to taxation. Increasing tax on the rich to pay for all the public spending they have planned is merely ideology. Do you think for one moment that the basic rate of income tax will remain as it is. No, they will tax the many to pay for all the idiot plans they have. Taxing the rich has been tried many times and it has minimal effect. The rich can avoid taxation, they have the means to to so, and they will.

I thought that they were going to borrow to fund their plans.

Ricoh
25th November 2018, 11:45 AM
I thought that they were going to borrow to fund their plans.
Well when I have borrowed money to fund the likes of a house purchase, car etc, the lender almost always wants the money returned, with interest.
If the country borrows beyond its means, I'm thinking well in excess of the GDP, the borrower becomes a bad risk, and with it come conditions. When Labour dish out billions on welfare payments, nationalise the railways, the utility companies, the debt will exceed GDP many times over, and the country will be in deep s*i*.
The Conservatives will be returned following the failed Marxist revolution, deep cuts will be made to pay off the national debt and the railways and utilities will be privatised. Is there an end to this madness?

sapper
25th November 2018, 11:48 AM
But governments can borrow at much better rates than private individuals, and only need to pay off the interest, no need to pay back the capital. until the money invested in infratructure pays ooff with more tax revenue.

Ricoh
25th November 2018, 11:59 AM
Not if the debt exceeds our ability to pay several times over. As a country we will be paying interest like its a PayDay loan. We could possibly sell our gold reserve to pay off the debt the Labour Party will accumulate, that's if Gordon Brown hadn't already sold it a considerable discount.

Bikie John
25th November 2018, 12:07 PM
Thanks Walti for an interesting broad view.

Can I ask about one of your comments:


The new generation of LED lights mean that incandescent lamps should no longer have a place in your life, again the work I've done with these with the retail industry and the manufacturers means you should have no qualms about swapping them out... just don't buy the cheapest possible, look for the highest CRI number on the packages! I have 4 and 7W lamps throughout my house (they're getting on for 6 years old and aren't halfway through their life yet!) There is a variety of colour temperatures available so choose the ones you like the warmer colours (lower K number) are most appropriate for the home, NOT the daylight and colder colours! (higher K number)

I like LED lights, much better than the CFL tubes that were foisted on us a while back (and in theory can't be thrown away anywhere!). In places in my house where 60W incandescent bulbs were good I have replaced them with LEDs as they die, and found that LEDs sold as 60W equivalent do a good job. However, for some places I like 100W incandescent bulbs as they give plenty of light for reading, cooking etc. I haven't yet found an easy source of 100W-equivalent LED bulbs. I got hold of one that was both dimmable, which I don't need, and expensive, which I don't like. It does a good job but I would prefer a simple cheaper plug-compatible replacement. Any suggestions?

John

Ricoh
25th November 2018, 12:31 PM
Multiple units, two or more.
Security lights can bash out the lumens, but heat sinks become necessary. Heat generation in the conversion process is unavoidable. We need some clever material science to deliver the goods - it's on it's way, using chemical compounds you wouldn't believe.

Walti
25th November 2018, 02:05 PM
Thanks Walti for an interesting broad view.

Can I ask about one of your comments:



I like LED lights, much better than the CFL tubes that were foisted on us a while back (and in theory can't be thrown away anywhere!). In places in my house where 60W incandescent bulbs were good I have replaced them with LEDs as they die, and found that LEDs sold as 60W equivalent do a good job. However, for some places I like 100W incandescent bulbs as they give plenty of light for reading, cooking etc. I haven't yet found an easy source of 100W-equivalent LED bulbs. I got hold of one that was both dimmable, which I don't need, and expensive, which I don't like. It does a good job but I would prefer a simple cheaper plug-compatible replacement. Any suggestions?

John

My default resourece is the Philipslighting range, they do have equivalents for most incandescent lamps, but be aware, they have two product ranges, one for domestic use and one for commercial use, the commercial are designed to last 3 or 4 times as long as the domestic as they’re often used 12 hours a day 363 days of the year, so are priced accordingly!

You’ve not said what sort of lamp you need, e.g bulb shaped or candle shaped etc...

Look on Amazon for a Philips white light frosted 13.5W lamp - £10 warm glow (Amazon have describes it incorrectly) and dimmable - they have a claimed life of 15,000 hours and Philips DO replace lamps that fail early! The 11W May be sufficient for you as well...

TimP
25th November 2018, 02:07 PM
Thanks Walti for an interesting broad view.

Can I ask about one of your comments:



I like LED lights, much better than the CFL tubes that were foisted on us a while back (and in theory can't be thrown away anywhere!). In places in my house where 60W incandescent bulbs were good I have replaced them with LEDs as they die, and found that LEDs sold as 60W equivalent do a good job. However, for some places I like 100W incandescent bulbs as they give plenty of light for reading, cooking etc. I haven't yet found an easy source of 100W-equivalent LED bulbs. I got hold of one that was both dimmable, which I don't need, and expensive, which I don't like. It does a good job but I would prefer a simple cheaper plug-compatible replacement. Any suggestions?

John
Tried Screwfix or Toolstation?

Zuiko
25th November 2018, 03:31 PM
Up the Red Flag, comrade!

If (or should I say when) Labour get into power, they will tax those who can offer no resistance to taxation. Increasing tax on the rich to pay for all the public spending they have planned is merely ideology. Do you think for one moment that the basic rate of income tax will remain as it is. No, they will tax the many to pay for all the idiot plans they have. Taxing the rich has been tried many times and it has minimal effect. The rich can avoid taxation, they have the means to to so, and they will.

All very interesting, Steve, but what has that got to do with public ownership of public utilities?

And before you say nationalised industries cost the taxpayer more, consider the case of the East Coast rail franchise, which has had to be rescued twice in recent years because the private operator failed but proves very profitable under Government control. Of course, this could be due to it being operated by a financially shrewd Conservative government rather than a profligate Labour administration, but nevertheless it does prove that in certain cases public ownership can work better than private companies.

In the case of gas and electric suppliers it may be too late and too expensive to re-nationalise them but it doesn't change my view that they never should have been privatised in the first place.

TimP
25th November 2018, 03:47 PM
I agree with John, the utilities should never have been privatised, they are too important for national security, security of supply etc.
Quite we’re throwing money at the Chinese and French (Hinkley Point) I have no idea, presumably some ministers had shares.

Zuiko
25th November 2018, 03:56 PM
Not if the debt exceeds our ability to pay several times over. As a country we will be paying interest like its a PayDay loan. We could possibly sell our gold reserve to pay off the debt the Labour Party will accumulate, that's if Gordon Brown hadn't already sold it a considerable discount.

What's the difference (in practical terms) between National Debt borrowed directly by the government and massive private commercial borrowing by large companies such as Carillion to finance public capital projects and services? In effect this is borrowing on behalf of the government and underwritten by the government. It has the advantage of masking the true level of National Debt, until the company concerned fails and the government has to meet the liability anyway. For the sake of impartiality, let's be clear that the last Labour government had equally bad private finance initiatives, which cost the taxpayer many times what it would have done had the borrowing been done directly by the Treasury.

wornish
25th November 2018, 04:32 PM
It's called smoke and mirrors.

Ricoh
25th November 2018, 05:25 PM
All very interesting, Steve, but what has that got to do with public ownership of public utilities?

And before you say nationalised industries cost the taxpayer more, consider the case of the East Coast rail franchise, which has had to be rescued twice in recent years because the private operator failed but proves very profitable under Government control. Of course, this could be due to it being operated by a financially shrewd Conservative government rather than a profligate Labour administration, but nevertheless it does prove that in certain cases public ownership can work better than private companies.

In the case of gas and electric suppliers it may be too late and too expensive to re-nationalise them but it doesn't change my view that they never should have been privatised in the first place.
We're in agreement with regard to utilities, they should not have been privatised, water especially. To renationalise or not is too complex for me to answer as a binary question, much like the referendum should we leave or remain in the EU. My gut feeling is that to renationalise just one, such as the entire rail network, or water, would cost an absolute fortune. I could guess the mantissa, but not the number of naughts.

Naughty Nigel
25th November 2018, 10:23 PM
All very interesting, Steve, but what has that got to do with public ownership of public utilities?

And before you say nationalised industries cost the taxpayer more, consider the case of the East Coast rail franchise, which has had to be rescued twice in recent years because the private operator failed but proves very profitable under Government control. Of course, this could be due to it being operated by a financially shrewd Conservative government rather than a profligate Labour administration, but nevertheless it does prove that in certain cases public ownership can work better than private companies.

In the case of gas and electric suppliers it may be too late and too expensive to re-nationalise them but it doesn't change my view that they never should have been privatised in the first place.

As a regular user (and being an anorak) I have a personal interest in the ECML. The media may say the operating companies were 'bailed out', but the truth is that they lost their franchises. I don't think the 'cost' to HMG was anything like the figures banded about by the media and opposition.

The ECML has always been the UK's 'Blue Ribbon' and ever since Gresley A4 Pacifics has had the fastest locomotives - partly because the lines are much straighter and longer than the WCML or GWR.

Probably for this reason the ECML has always attracted the greatest charges for operating franchises on it. GNER, the first (and best IMHO) private operator on the ECML was contracted to pay £1.3 BILLION over a ten year franchise period, which is a heck of a lot of money to find even before you employ a single member of staff. They were doing perfectly well until the 7/7 London bombings when large numbers of passengers simply stopped visiting London.

GNER tried to renegotiate terms with the government of the day, but given the level of government expenditure by this time they couldn't afford to play ball, so GNER was driven out of business.

National Express, the next private operator, was a disaster in my view, with silver service dining culled and standards falling to miserable levels, so I was pleased when they went. Virgin/Stagecoach did a much better job but they had clearly overbid for the franchise.

What is not spoken about is the eye-watering amounts spent (and over-spent) by the Department of Transport on new trains, and the waste caused by daft engineering oversights such as trains which are too wide for platforms. Some trains are being decommissioned after less than three years use, whilst it is estimated that a total of 52 miles of sidings (which we no longer have) will be needed to store the decommissioned stock within the next three years!

The new 800 Class Hitachi trains due to enter traffic on the ECML have now been delayed until 2020 because their electrical control gear interferes with older signalling north of York!

You really couldn't make it up. All I can say is 'bring back BREL!

However, to be fair, and despite complaints about how expensive rail travel is, and how badly the railways are run, our railways now carry more passengers than at any time in their history. Would this have happened under nationalisation I wonder?

What's the difference (in practical terms) between National Debt borrowed directly by the government and massive private commercial borrowing by large companies such as Carillion to finance public capital projects and services? In effect this is borrowing on behalf of the government and underwritten by the government. It has the advantage of masking the true level of National Debt, until the company concerned fails and the government has to meet the liability anyway. For the sake of impartiality, let's be clear that the last Labour government had equally bad private finance initiatives, which cost the taxpayer many times what it would have done had the borrowing been done directly by the Treasury.

Exactly John. PFI was like taking twenty credit cards and maxing them out whilst hoping that a); the credit card companies wouldn't find out about each other, b); that a future, financially astute government might be able to afford the repayments, and c); hoping those with short memories would forgive and forget who created the mess and in ten years or so would allow you back for another try.

What year is it now?

Naughty Nigel
25th November 2018, 10:30 PM
With regard to Smart Meters, there is NO legal requirement to fit them, and individual energy suppliers have no mandate to make anyone fit a Smart Meter against their will.

I mentioned on another thread that we have recently signed up with Powershop. Their systems do not support Smart Meters. If you have a Smart Meter you have to read it manually and upload the readings yourself. I am happy with that especially now that I won't be nagged to fit a Smart Meter which I know won't work here.

Interestingly, we left the Gas Board in 2013 and have been with First Utility until a few days ago. We have not had a single visit from a meter reader in that time so I really don't get the fuss about needing to save the cost of meter readers.

How easy would it be to 'lap' a gas or electricity meter I wonder, or would you need a cannabis farm in the loft? :rolleyes:

Zuiko
25th November 2018, 10:55 PM
As a regular user (and being an anorak) I have a personal interest in the ECML. The media may say the operating companies were 'bailed out', but the truth is that they lost their franchises. I don't think the 'cost' to HMG was anything like the figures banded about by the media and opposition.

The ECML has always been the UK's 'Blue Ribbon' and ever since Gresley A4 Pacifics has had the fastest locomotives - partly because the lines are much straighter and longer than the WCML or GWR.

Probably for this reason the ECML has always attracted the greatest charges for operating franchises on it. GNER, the first (and best IMHO) private operator on the ECML was contracted to pay £1.3 BILLION over a ten year franchise period, which is a heck of a lot of money to find even before you employ a single member of staff. They were doing perfectly well until the 7/7 London bombings when large numbers of passengers simply stopped visiting London.

GNER tried to renegotiate terms with the government of the day, but given the level of government expenditure by this time they couldn't afford to play ball, so GNER was driven out of business.

National Express, the next private operator, was a disaster in my view, with silver service dining culled and standards falling to miserable levels, so I was pleased when they went. Virgin/Stagecoach did a much better job but they had clearly overbid for the franchise.

What is not spoken about is the eye-watering amounts spent (and over-spent) by the Department of Transport on new trains, and the waste caused by daft engineering oversights such as trains which are too wide for platforms. Some trains are being decommissioned after less than three years use, whilst it is estimated that a total of 52 miles of sidings (which we no longer have) will be needed to store the decommissioned stock within the next three years!

The new 800 Class Hitachi trains due to enter traffic on the ECML have now been delayed until 2020 because their electrical control gear interferes with older signalling north of York!

You really couldn't make it up. All I can say is 'bring back BREL!

However, to be fair, and despite complaints about how expensive rail travel is, and how badly the railways are run, our railways now carry more passengers than at any time in their history. Would this have happened under nationalisation I wonder?



Exactly John. PFI was like taking twenty credit cards and maxing them out whilst hoping that a); the credit card companies wouldn't find out about each other, b); that a future, financially astute government might be able to afford the repayments, and c); hoping those with short memories would forgive and forget who created the mess and in ten years or so would allow you back for another try.

What year is it now?

Thanks for a detailed account of the problems of the ECML. I rather suspect that the railways would be carrying record numbers of passengers if they were still nationalised simply because commuting by car on today's overcrowded roads is so unpleasant. But let us not forget that private train operators are making rail travel as unattractive as possible by introducing new timetables that are simply impossible to operate. It seems that in this country there are certain things in which both the public and private sectors are equally incompetent, when it really should be straightforward to get it right!

Naughty Nigel
25th November 2018, 11:15 PM
Thanks for a detailed account of the problems of the ECML. I rather suspect that the railways would be carrying record numbers of passengers if they were still nationalised simply because commuting by car on today's overcrowded roads is so unpleasant. But let us not forget that private train operators are making rail travel as unattractive as possible by introducing new timetables that are simply impossible to operate. It seems that in this country there are certain things in which both the public and private sectors are equally incompetent, when it really should be straightforward to get it right!

To be fair John it is only one or two rail operators who have introduced the unworkable timetables, (Northern Fail being one that I have personal experience of). The remainder seem to have kept more or less the same timetables that they have used for as long as I can remember; certainly on the ECML.

The Northern Fail balls up was publicly blamed on a shortage of staff, but the truth of the matter was that there were insufficient drivers trained to operate new(er) trains that had been brought onto the Northern network and similar operational problems. There was never a shortage of staff!

Let us not forget that the timetable changes and new rolling stock were introduced by Network Rail and of the Department of Transport, both of which are publicly owned and run. Both NR and the DofT could and should have known about and avoided these problems.

On another matter, the cost of modifying the Mk 3 coaching stock (Class 43/HST) with plug doors to comply with disability legislation and to provide black water holding tanks is currently put at £50 million! Where do they get these figures from? :confused:

DerekW
26th November 2018, 10:38 AM
The ongoiong dispute regarding manning - when is a supervisor a guard etc etc is not helping the smoove flow of passeengers in the south.

Naughty Nigel
26th November 2018, 01:32 PM
The ongoiong dispute regarding manning - when is a supervisor a guard etc etc is not helping the smoove flow of passeengers in the south.

It isn't, but once again the unions are shooting themselves in both feet.

I agree there should be a Guard and a Driver on most* trains, but creating misery for passengers, forcing them onto the roads or stopping them from getting to work is not the answer.

*There must come a point where smaller trains do not need a Guard. Many of the local trains in this area are comprised of no more than two carriages and do not have a full time Guard. This doesn't seem to cause any problems.

The Tyne & Wear Metro trains only ever have a Driver, and have not had Guards since the system opened in the 1970's.

DerekW
26th November 2018, 03:58 PM
The trains to town (London for the out of towners) tend to be 5 to 7 carriages.

Some of the Underground trains do longer journeys than the south coast to town main line journeys yet they only have a driver.

Naughty Nigel
26th November 2018, 04:04 PM
The trains to town (London for the out of towners) tend to be 5 to 7 carriages.

Some of the Underground trains do longer journeys than the south coast to town main line journeys yet they only have a driver.

That is exactly my point.

The 'train' from Middlesbrough to Whitby takes about 1 hour 40 minutes and has only a Driver, unless steam hauled in which case there is a Driver, Fireman and Guard! :D

Otto
26th November 2018, 04:18 PM
The 'train' from Middlesbrough to Whitby takes about 1 hour 40 minutes and has only a Driver

I travelled that route a couple of years ago and there was definitely a conductor/guard on the train, in both directions. The intermediate stations are unstaffed so an on-train conductor is needed to sell tickets. The same is true for my local line, Leeds to Carlisle. Maybe things have changed on the Whitby line since then but they certainly haven't here.

On that outward journey to Whitby from James Cook there was a track problem somewhere in the Whitby area meaning that the announced train ("please stand back" etc) never arrived! Two or three more were announced but never materialised before one did eventually stagger into the station (it was a Pacer :rolleyes:). It was so crammed with people the poor old conductor didn't even attempt to check or sell tickets as he couldn't move through the carriage!

Naughty Nigel
26th November 2018, 04:30 PM
I travelled that route a couple of years ago and there was definitely a conductor/guard on the train, in both directions. The intermediate stations are unstaffed so an on-train conductor is needed to sell tickets. The same is true for my local line, Leeds to Carlisle. Maybe things have changed on the Whitby line since then but they certainly haven't here.

On that outward journey to Whitby from James Cook there was a track problem somewhere in the Whitby area meaning that the announced train ("please stand back" etc) never arrived! Two or three more were announced but never materialised before one did eventually stagger into the station (it was a Pacer :rolleyes:). It was so crammed with people the poor old conductor didn't even attempt to check or sell tickets as he couldn't move through the carriage!

Interesting. I have only travelled on the route twice. The first occasion (on a Pacer) there was only a Driver and a handful of passengers. On the second occasion (steam hauled) there were plenty of staff and a lot more passengers who just wanted the ride! :)

Tickets on the DMU services are incredibly cheap, but not so on the NYMR steam hauled services.

As it happens there was a German couple on the platform at Whitby who had cycled all the way from Scarborough and were exhausted. They were hoping to catch a train back along the coast to Scarborough. It took some time to explain that the line had been closed for over 50 years and that they were at the 'wrong' railway station; Whitby having once had a higher level station up 't'hill for the coastal route.

I don't know what happened in the end but the only available rail service to Scarborough is via Middlesbrough, Darlington and York which would not have got them back until the next morning.

Otto
26th November 2018, 05:15 PM
I would expect plenty of staff on the NYMR trains, though even they are having trouble finding enough volunteers nowadays. I travelled from Levisham to Whitby and back a couple of months ago and not only were there train staff but station staff as well, just like sixty years ago! Of course that all costs money and the NYWR is indeed not cheap, but it's a much more comfortable ride than a Pacer :).


I guess the Germans might have got a bus if they were lucky ... there is a service between Whitby and Scarbro' but whether it accepts bikes I don't know.

TimP
26th November 2018, 06:01 PM
For me I the one thing that worries me for a journey with just a driver is what happens should there be an incident of any sort (passengers kicking off, passenger falling ill, passenger pulling cord ( is there one any more?), train breakdown, suicide, driver falls ill etc etc) there must be a whole list of things that needs more than just a driver.

Naughty Nigel
26th November 2018, 07:00 PM
For me I the one thing that worries me for a journey with just a driver is what happens should there be an incident of any sort (passengers kicking off, passenger falling ill, passenger pulling cord ( is there one any more?), train breakdown, suicide, driver falls ill etc etc) there must be a whole list of things that needs more than just a driver.

There are many reasons why having a Guard is a good idea, and why Guards have always had an important role on the railways.

There used to be 'Clippies' on the buses too, but I have not seen one of them for a while.

Otto
26th November 2018, 07:34 PM
In modern buses the driver is in the same “compartment” as the passengers, whereas on trains s/he has a separate cab. CCTV could show the driver what’s going on in the carriages but they can’t just stop the train, jump out and sort any problems like a bus driver can. So another staff member is required to patrol the passengers. As I understand it that person can be less skilled and therefore cheaper if the driver controls the doors. That’s the root of the dispute.

DerekW
26th November 2018, 08:15 PM
OK but on a 5 carriage train the extra staff member cannot apply crowd control at the other end of the train, and in the first part of all journies the staff member would not be able to quickly get from one end of the train to the other as the trains tend to be jammed sollid,

Rocknroll59
26th November 2018, 08:21 PM
Getting back to the smart meters...I had them fitted a while back, so many problems with remote readings that they came and took them away as I refused to continue with them, they come and read the meters now...and I get accurate readings...my advice avoid like the plague.

Peter*yes*yes

Rocknroll59
26th November 2018, 08:26 PM
Oh and would you step onto a plane with only 1 pilot?? Also on our network (Anglia) when a strike was called earlier this year they had guards made up of office workers at the TOC and at an incident the passengers got off on the wrong side of the train (on the rail side and not the verge side), all carried out by the temp guard..as someone has already said if it ain't broke don't fix it and why is there always this drive to the bottom line (excuse the pun)??

Peter *chr

OM USer
26th November 2018, 08:56 PM
Smart meters do not save money. What are you meant to do - turn off your fridge for 4 hours a day? Those on a day/night tariff already wait until "night" time before turning on the dishwasher/washing-machine/tumble dryer for the last 1, 2 or 3 loads of the day. Perhaps you have to wait until 11pm to turn the oven on for your evening meal. We can barely get a phone signal in the main rooms of the house (sometimes my phone reports a loss of signal of 20% for the day) so under the stairs is an unusual place to expect anything to work.

The utility companies want variable time of day pricing (load balance pricing) so you can't say how much your unit of electricity will cost until you actually want it and so you can't plan for it. You also need smart appliances that wait until the price drops before turning on. But what if the price doesn't drop because demand is high? You wake up in the morning to dirty dishes and unwashed clothes.

We have just had a water meter forced upon us. Appartently we are in a "seriously water stressed" area (aren't we all?) so the legislation (Section 162 of the Water Industry Act 1991) allows the water company to forcibly install a meter. I have heard of some people who say that now they are paying for it they will use it when they want - even to using a hosepipe in the gardens on a hot summers day - as they can afford it.

Naughty Nigel
26th November 2018, 08:59 PM
In modern buses the driver is in the same “compartment” as the passengers, whereas on trains s/he has a separate cab. CCTV could show the driver what’s going on in the carriages but they can’t just stop the train, jump out and sort any problems like a bus driver can. So another staff member is required to patrol the passengers. As I understand it that person can be less skilled and therefore cheaper if the driver controls the doors. That’s the root of the dispute.

Yes.

.... Although the Guard (or Train Manager as they call them now) is actually in charge of the train.

The Guard cannot drive the train (except perhaps in an emergency), but they must know the route in the same way as the Driver so that in the event of an accident or emergency they know exactly where to direct emergency services.

A few years ago a lady Guard I was talking to on a Cross Country train said that all Guards must be able to safely lift a coupling to above shoulder height, (they weigh about 50 Lb), and must be able to safely climb form a train down to the track bed and up again without help. It is a long way down on British trains!

There is a lot more to being a Guard than closing doors and collecting tickets.

Naughty Nigel
26th November 2018, 09:09 PM
The utility companies want variable time of day pricing (load balance pricing) so you can't say how much your unit of electricity will cost until you actually want it and so you can't plan for it. You also need smart appliances that wait until the price drops before turning on. But what if the price doesn't drop because demand is high? You wake up in the morning to dirty dishes and unwashed clothes.


It doesn't work quite like that. 'Smart' devices including 'smart chargers' for electric cars only operate when the mains frequency is at 50 Hz or above. There is no timer or radio signal.

The frequency as I write is 50.067Hz even though the grid is nearing capacity at 41.63GW. (Nominal capacity is around 52 GW although there are contingencies.)

Mains frequency drops below 50 Hz when the grid is under load and nearing current generating capacity so that is when it helps to shut down heavy loads. The mains frequency must always average 50 Hz over any 24 Hour period so there will always be periods when smart devices will work, but that might be when you want them.

At the end of the day the National Grid wants us to buy their electricity so they will only shut down supply if they absolutely have to. Only the Water Boards seem to have a monopoly on charging a lot of money for a product which is withdrawn when we need it most.

TimP
26th November 2018, 09:27 PM
I have to say that since we had a water meter voluntarily fitted some years ago we have massively reduced our water bills. We were on a ludicrous rateable value prior to the meter hence the drop. Why do we pour drinking water literally down the toilet? There must be a simple and cheap way to use grey water and harvested rain water surely.

Naughty Nigel
26th November 2018, 11:19 PM
We were on a ludicrous rateable value prior to the meter hence the drop. Why do we pour drinking water literally down the toilet? There must be a simple and cheap way to use grey water and harvested rain water surely.

There is, but it is simpler and cheaper for builders and developers to use mains water.

The heads on ships used to be flushed with salt water, (some still are), but it caused corrosion to internal pipework and prevented proper bacterial digestion of black water in on-board sewage treatment systems. That practice was largely dropped when the IMO required ships to use black water holding tanks and sewage treatment.

I digress though. There is no reason why rainwater or grey water should not be used to flush lavatories as long as nobody minds the colour of the water. Perhaps dishwashers and washing machines could be designed to divert rinse water for this purpose?

DerekW
26th November 2018, 11:40 PM
Re Water - if there are less people living in a house thann there are bedrooms then the general rule is that it is cheaper to have a water meter. If the reverse then stay on the Rateable value water tariff. However once you are on a water meter thenn you are stuck with it. So charge all your extra residents more money. If they are your offspring - then tuff you should have been more carefull.

TimP
27th November 2018, 07:28 AM
I’d happily invest in rainwater harvesting if it wasn’t so expensive and needed such a huge tank. My water butts do a good job of watering the garden but they fail over time and are a bit of a faff come the freezing weather.

Naughty Nigel
27th November 2018, 07:56 AM
To quote myself:

There is no reason why rainwater or grey water should not be used to flush lavatories as long as nobody minds the colour of the water. Perhaps dishwashers and washing machines could be designed to divert rinse water for this purpose?

The problem comes about because rain or grey water is not guaranteed. It would be possible to divert wash water from dishwashers and washing machines, or even bathwater to a holding tank with a pump to deliver the water to lavatories. But what happens when that water supply is exhausted? You would need yet more complexity and expense to introduce mains water into the system.

Rain water would be perfectly good for lavatory flushing but warm, grey water could cause all manner of problems owing to soaps and bacteria stored in a confined space.

Would you really want that in your loft or lavatory cistern?

It is doable but expensive.

Harold Gough
27th November 2018, 09:12 AM
Perhaps dishwashers and washing machines could be designed to divert rinse water for this purpose?

You wouldn't want the grease and oils from the dishwasher for your plants. On the other hand, they would form a mosquito-proof scum on the surface.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
27th November 2018, 09:14 AM
You wouldn't want the grease and oils from the dishwasher for your plants. On the other hand, they would form a mosquito-proof scum on the surface.

Harold

Rinse water should be clean enough.

Harold Gough
27th November 2018, 09:38 AM
Rinse water should be clean enough.

Yes but how do you collect rinse water and not wash water with one set of plumbing?

Harold

Naughty Nigel
27th November 2018, 09:42 AM
Yes but how do you collect rinse water and not wash water with one set of plumbing?

Harold

You don't. Washing machines and dishwashers would need two pumps so that rinse water could be directed to a holding tank.

Thinking on though, fibres from washing machine wasted water could play havoc with plumbing and would encourage bacterial growth.

Harold Gough
27th November 2018, 09:56 AM
You don't. Washing machines and dishwashers would need two pumps so that rinse water could be directed to a holding tank.

When you can no longer buy a machine which takes a hot water feed? Dream on!

Harold

TimP
27th November 2018, 09:57 AM
You don't. Washing machines and dishwashers would need two pumps so that rinse water could be directed to a holding tank.

Thinking on though, fibres from washing machine wasted water could play havoc with plumbing and would encourage bacterial growth.

Didn’t I read a quote somewhere that ‘difficult is worth doing’ ??
:)

Naughty Nigel
27th November 2018, 10:16 AM
When you can no longer buy a machine which takes a hot water feed? Dream on!

Harold

Our washing machine is ten years old (Bosch) and has never had a hot water feed. The wash process is much more efficient with a cold fill.

Naughty Nigel
27th November 2018, 10:18 AM
Didn’t I read a quote somewhere that ‘difficult is worth doing’ ??
:)

It is doable and worth doing but there are practical challenges [in reusing waste water] that are not immediately obvious.

Thankfully we have a plentiful supply of water here in Co. Durham thanks to Kielder water. *yes

Otto
27th November 2018, 12:39 PM
Our washing machine is ten years old (Bosch) and has never had a hot water feed. The wash process is much more efficient with a cold fill.


Not only that but the dead leg on most hot water supplies probably prevents much water that is actually hot reaching the machine. Also, the machine only heats the water it really needs. What puzzles me though is the "eco" setting takes so much longer than the standard yet they claim it saves energy. My Bosch dishwasher also takes half the time and gets the dishes cleaner if I choose the non-eco setting.

Naughty Nigel
27th November 2018, 12:52 PM
Not only that but the dead leg on most hot water supplies probably prevents much water that is actually hot reaching the machine. Also, the machine only heats the water it really needs. What puzzles me though is the "eco" setting takes so much longer than the standard yet they claim it saves energy. My Bosch dishwasher also takes half the time and gets the dishes cleaner if I choose the non-eco setting.

A longer cycle at lower temperature perhaps?

Ricoh
27th November 2018, 01:00 PM
A longer cycle at lower temperature perhaps?
Newton's law of cooling applies:
http://www.ugrad.math.ubc.ca/coursedoc/math100/notes/diffeqs/cool.html
Can be mitigated to a degree (intentional pun) but the second law of thermodynamics will always conquer.

Otto
27th November 2018, 01:39 PM
Reference to the user manual for the washing machine reveals that the eco mode does indeed lower the temperature. Presumably that saves more energy than running the motor for twice as long!

Ricoh
27th November 2018, 02:02 PM
I think I'll take my double dewar washing machine onto Dragon's Den. Minimal heat loss, but getting the clothes in and out is, as yet, a bit of a struggle. Early days.