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pdk42
23rd November 2018, 12:24 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/23/study-shows-60-of-britons-believe-in-conspiracy-theories


In the UK, people who supported Brexit are considerably more likely to give credence to conspiracy theories than those who opposed it, with 71% of leave voters believing at least one theory compared with 49% of remain voters.



Almost half (47%) of leave voters believe the government has deliberately concealed the truth about how many immigrants live in the UK, versus 14% of remain voters. A striking 31% of leave voters believe that Muslim immigration is part of a wider plot to make Muslims the majority in Britain, a conspiracy theory that originated in French far-right circles that is known as the “great replacement”. The comparable figure for remain voters is 6%.


Just sayin...

sapper
23rd November 2018, 08:15 AM
True.......................

Tram
23rd November 2018, 08:15 AM
Having seen Rees-Mogg and co I am now open to the alien integration in our society theory

Naughty Nigel
23rd November 2018, 08:28 AM
Are the authors suggesting that Leave voters are more gullible than Remainers?

I cannot believe 'the authorities' would have an interest in Muslims becoming the majority in the UK, but Muslims themselves may well have an interest in doing so. Indeed, some have even spoken of a 'bloodless takeover' in Europe. If there is any conspiracy I suspect it would be a case of some local councils turning a blind eye rather than central government actively promoting inward migration; just as some local councils chose to turn a blind eye to sexual abuse by certain groups for fear of creating racial tensions.

With regard to uncontrolled immigration during the Blair era; I thought it was generally accepted that the government of the day had no way of knowing how many Eastern Europeans had come into the UK, how many stayed or how many had left. Is this not the case?

There have been many illogical and unexplained events over the years including the death of Dianna, Princess of Wales, and conspiracy theories often provide convenient but inaccurate explanations in the absence of known facts.

I hear there are now conspiracy theories circulating about the wildfires in California but I have no idea where the evidence comes from.

pdk42
23rd November 2018, 08:56 AM
Are the authors suggesting that Leave voters are more gullible than Remainers?

I don't think it's a case of being gullible. I think it's a case that some believe that the "establishment" is hiding secret plans to pursue a hidden agenda, usually to the detriment of the common man. This sort of thinking inevitably leads to negative opinions of any source of authority, with the most negative opinions reserved for those who are most different or remote to us. In a nutshell, the conspiracy mindset is perfect for the Brexit mindset.


I cannot believe 'the authorities' would have an interest in Muslims becoming the majority in the UK, but Muslims themselves may well have an interest in doing so. Indeed, some have even spoken of a 'bloodless takeover' in Europe. If there is any conspiracy I suspect it would be a case of some local councils turning a blind eye rather than central government actively promoting inward migration; just as some local councils chose to turn a blind eye to sexual abuse by certain groups for fear of creating racial tensions.

I'm suspicious of the motives of all religious organisations since they possess that most dangerous of ideas - faith.


With regard to uncontrolled immigration during the Blair era; I thought it was generally accepted that the government of the day had no way of knowing how many Eastern Europeans had come into the UK, how many stayed or how many had left. Is this not the case?

Probably. I was never a fan of TB - a man of faith in more ways than one.



There have been many illogical and unexplained events over the years including the death of Dianna, Princess of Wales, and conspiracy theories often provide convenient but inaccurate explanations in the absence of known facts.

I hear there are now conspiracy theories circulating about the wildfires in California but I have no idea where the evidence comes from.
I think that Diana's death is pretty obvious isn't it - a drunk/drugged driver driving at crazy speeds in a crowded city whilst trying to outrun intrusive journalists. Her injuries were fatal because she wasn't wearing a seatbelt (one person survived the crash - the only one wearing a seatbelt). What more is there to it?

Wally
23rd November 2018, 09:35 AM
Fake news, disinformation or political spin / geek-speak began to take off big-time in the late 80's early 90's. It's been building up slowly over the years and has been helped by the many on-line platforms to push the various global agenda's.
When politicians, heads of states and or countries jumped on the bandwagon, the rest as they say, is history. One of the newest incumbents, has now forcibly pushed it to a new, and in my opinion, a frightening level of disinformation. So much so, that it becomes nigh on impossible to know what is right, and what is s$%&e?

Gradual integration is one thing, mass integration is a whole new ball-game. Safety in numbers springs to mind where large groups are formed and social change is enforced by the new arrivals to take place. It isn't helped, - when a way of life - appears to be threatened by these new arrivals who apparently want to live by their own culture and rules of law. With so much anti-social behaviour now becoming the social norm, it's difficult for the ordinary man or woman in the street to not be conditioned to believe where the problem lies and, who is to blame?

Certain country's have recently said enough is enough and taken steps to reduce or even stop this mass exodus and are being castigated by others for doing so. For the many, dependant on food banks or living in run-down high rental accommodation or on the streets... their reality is so much different, a picture from life's other side which has been ignored for too long.


As Mulder would say: 'The truth is out there...' We just have to determine between what is right and what is s&%$e?

Naughty Nigel
23rd November 2018, 10:07 AM
I think that Diana's death is pretty obvious isn't it - a drunk/drugged driver driving at crazy speeds in a crowded city whilst trying to outrun intrusive journalists. Her injuries were fatal because she wasn't wearing a seatbelt (one person survived the crash - the only one wearing a seatbelt). What more is there to it?

On face value the cause of the accident was blindingly obvious, which is probably how it was meant to be; but there remain many unexplained factors such the mixed up blood samples and unexplained high levels of CO in the driver's blood. And why was a professional driver drinking whilst on duty in the first place? Maybe the paparazzi were just a convenient scapegoat?

There was also the reported bright flash in the tunnel which has never been explained.

Just saying...... :)

Naughty Nigel
23rd November 2018, 10:14 AM
Fake news, disinformation or political spin / geek-speak began to take off big-time in the late 80's early 90's.

The Fake News industry really took off around 1997 if I recall, helped no end by the rapidly increasing popularity of the internet amongst the masses.

Apart from the newly discovered magic money trees and inexhaustible gold reserves there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq ................... :rolleyes:

pdk42
23rd November 2018, 10:27 AM
On face value the cause of the accident was blindingly obvious, which is probably how it was meant to be; but there remain many unexplained factors such the mixed up blood samples and unexplained high levels of CO in the driver's blood. And why was a professional driver drinking whilst on duty in the first place? Maybe the paparazzi were just a convenient scapegoat?

There was also the reported bright flash in the tunnel which has never been explained.

Just saying...... :)
Conspiracy theories always seem to focus on tiny details that might indicate some massive cover up. Just read any of those on 9/11. Mostly the details are just misinterpretations or sometimes just plain wrong. Diana's driver for instance may have been a "professional driver" in the sense of being paid for it, but the Fayeds didn't do any serious due diligence of his competence or background before employing him. He wasn't a formally trained police or armed forces driver.

In any case, any conspiracy would have to account for the fact that the accident need not have been fatal if the occupants had worn seat belts, or for that matter had there been any other minor changes to a multitude of other factors - road surface, speed, time, other traffic, etc etc. It was a road traffic accident, just like thousands that happen on world's roads everyday. It's only gained notoriety because of the high profile of its victims. If you had wanted Diana dead (a ludicrous idea anyhow) then there would have been much more predictable ways to have done it.

Internaut
23rd November 2018, 10:44 AM
We have a frightening number of people who don’t think critically. They’re more likely to be angry, and that makes them more likely to vote. As far as I’m concerned, until voting is mandatory the system is rigged by default and wide open to dangerous populist movements.

At the same time, we shouldn’t merely dismiss the angry people.... Anger has a cause and consequences. In my line of business I read last week that Indian outsourcing giant, Tata Consultancy Services, is being taken to court in the US. Apparently, some ninety percent of the staff at their large US offices are in the US on visas. Fake news or real? Doesn’t matter; it will make people angry either way. I predict a second term for Trump*.

* The really scary thing about Trump? He might actually be right about some things, and now gets to solve the problems he sees in his own way....

Internaut
23rd November 2018, 10:47 AM
On face value the cause of the accident was blindingly obvious, which is probably how it was meant to be; but there remain many unexplained factors such the mixed up blood samples and unexplained high levels of CO in the driver's blood. And why was a professional driver drinking whilst on duty in the first place? Maybe the paparazzi were just a convenient scapegoat?

There was also the reported bright flash in the tunnel which has never been explained.

Just saying...... :)

Meh! Phil The Greek had her rubbed out.

TimP
23rd November 2018, 11:15 AM
I hear there are now conspiracy theories circulating about the wildfires in California but I have no idea where the evidence comes from.

It has to be rake manufacturers, it can only be them.

pdk42
23rd November 2018, 11:24 AM
It has to be rake manufacturers, it can only be them.

#rake America great again

TimP
23rd November 2018, 11:26 AM
#rake America great again

Or Make America Rake Again!

There were some wonderful comments from Finnish people posted on the interwebs. I wonder if Trump has any idea how much people take the pi55 out of him??

pdk42
23rd November 2018, 11:28 AM
We have a frightening number of people who don’t think critically. They’re more likely to be angry, and that makes them more likely to vote. As far as I’m concerned, until voting is mandatory the system is rigged by default and wide open to dangerous populist movements.

At the same time, we shouldn’t merely dismiss the angry people.... Anger has a cause and consequences. In my line of business I read last week that Indian outsourcing giant, Tata Consultancy Services, is being taken to court in the US. Apparently, some ninety percent of the staff at their large US offices are in the US on visas. Fake news or real? Doesn’t matter; it will make people angry either way. I predict a second term for Trump*.

* The really scary thing about Trump? He might actually be right about some things, and now gets to solve the problems he sees in his own way....
We do work with a very large US retailer and they have outsourced the vast majority of their IT to Tata Consultancy Services (TCS). Whilst some of what TCS do for them is off-site, a lot is done on-site and the vast majority of the workers are from India on temporary visas. The poor sods get worked to the bone because they are hoping to stay long enough to qualify for a green card. Any slacking and they are back on the plane to India.

TCS have recently taken over the IT for several UK retailers too, including M&S. They do have a very successful business model - but it's based on low cost through low pay.

Naughty Nigel
23rd November 2018, 11:47 AM
#rake America great again

More like '#rake America grate again.' :rolleyes:

Jax
23rd November 2018, 12:56 PM
I don't think it's a case of being gullible. I think it's a case that some believe that the "establishment" is hiding secret plans to pursue a hidden agenda, usually to the detriment of the common man. This sort of thinking inevitably leads to negative opinions of any source of authority, with the most negative opinions reserved for those who are most different or remote to us. In a nutshell, the conspiracy mindset is perfect for the Brexit mindset.


I'm suspicious of the motives of all religious organisations since they possess that most dangerous of ideas - faith.


Probably. I was never a fan of TB - a man of faith in more ways than one.



I think that Diana's death is pretty obvious isn't it - a drunk/drugged driver driving at crazy speeds in a crowded city whilst trying to outrun intrusive journalists. Her injuries were fatal because she wasn't wearing a seatbelt (one person survived the crash - the only one wearing a seatbelt). What more is there to it?

Your photographic skills and expertise are clearly beyond dispute in the same way your literary skills excel. Sadly however, your comprehension of reality and all things practical, is non existent.

Jax

Jim Ford
23rd November 2018, 12:57 PM
Having seen Rees-Mogg and co I am now open to the alien integration in our society theory

The cartoonist Steve Bell used to show John Redwood naked but without any navel nipples or genitals, but with a pair of antenna.

Jim

Jim Ford
23rd November 2018, 01:08 PM
On face value the cause of the accident was blindingly obvious, which is probably how it was meant to be; but there remain many unexplained factors such the mixed up blood samples and unexplained high levels of CO in the driver's blood. And why was a professional driver drinking whilst on duty in the first place? Maybe the paparazzi were just a convenient scapegoat?

There was also the reported bright flash in the tunnel which has never been explained.

Just saying...... :)

I've always found that Occam's Razor has been as useful a tool as my Swiss army knife.

I was talking to a group of perfectly ordinary, well spoken, middle aged gents a couple of years ago. It quickly became evident that they were 'Chemtrail' 'roll and butters'!

Jim

Jim Ford
23rd November 2018, 01:14 PM
Your photographic skills and expertise are clearly beyond dispute in the same way your literary skills excel. Sadly however, your comprehension of reality and all things practical, is non existent.

Wow - just wow!

Please give us a list of conspiracy theories you subscribe to - just to entertain us. I love hearing them!

Jim

pdk42
23rd November 2018, 03:42 PM
Your photographic skills and expertise are clearly beyond dispute in the same way your literary skills excel. Sadly however, your comprehension of reality and all things practical, is non existent.

Jax

Thank you.

bredman
23rd November 2018, 04:13 PM
Anyone else noticed how authoritarian and coercive progressives are? They love to pontificate about how everyone else is an idiot or somehow blind, unable to grasp simple [leftist] concepts. It's getting annoying. Notice the ad hominem attacks, how they quote higher authorities in arguments, and question one's qualification to hold specific opinions. And they think that because idiot-rags like the Guardian do it, then it's ok for them to do it. Straight out of Saul Alinsky's playbook for the progressive activist.

Progressives are state-worshippers, who believe they are more evolved than the 'gullible'. The rest of us are not stupid though. I'm a libertarian, i don't trust governments, i don't trust politicians or bureaucrats - power corrupts. I don't appreciate state surveillance. I want less of it all, no nanny state please, less collective solutions, more autonomy for the family and individualism, more self-responsibilty.

But i'm an idiot apparently. Because why, i reject political correctness, the mob, groupthink, and SJWs with their transgender hysteria? I'm failing to see what the far-left can contribute outside of a playground of 16 yo schoolgirl activist utopianists.

The Guardian is just confirmation bias for those that think they've got it all sussed. De-politicise yourselves folks, you-re supposed to be free thinking and educated ffs

This forum would be wise to scrap political discussions.

pdk42
23rd November 2018, 04:20 PM
Anyone else noticed how authoritarian and coercive progressives are? They love to pontificate about how everyone else is an idiot or somehow blind, unable to grasp simple [leftist] concepts. It's getting annoying. Notice the ad hominem attacks, how they quote higher authorities in arguments, and question one's qualification to hold specific opinions. And they think that because idiot-rags like the Guardian do it, then it's ok for them to do it. Straight out of Saul Alinsky's playbook for the progressive activist.

Progressives are state-worshippers, who believe they are more evolved than the 'gullible'. The rest of us are not stupid though. I'm a libertarian, i don't trust governments, i don't trust politicians or bureaucrats - power corrupts. I don't appreciate state surveillance. I want less of it all, no nanny state please, less collective solutions, more autonomy for the family and individualism, more self-responsibilty.

But i'm an idiot apparently. Because why, i reject political correctness, the mob, groupthink, and SJWs with their transgender hysteria? I'm failing to see what the far-left can contribute outside of a playground of 16 yo schoolgirl activist utopianists.

The Guardian is just confirmation bias for those that think they've got it all sussed. De-politicise yourselves folks, you-re supposed to be free thinking and educated ffs

This forum would be wise to scrap political discussions.

Good to see you've figured it all out.

bredman
23rd November 2018, 04:29 PM
Good to see you've figured it all out.

I notice stuff ;) but i'm not particularly articulate. I'm sure you get my drift. People out there are not less intelligent than you, they may simply have different solutions.

TimP
23rd November 2018, 04:30 PM
...... I want less of it all, no nanny state please, less collective solutions, more autonomy for the family and individualism, more self-responsibilty.

Whilst I’d be the first to decry the nanny state you can’t help but give it credit for saving many lives and reducing workplace injuries over the years. Autonomy for the family? Really? Too many people are far too thick to be able to handle that or even grasp whet it might entail. Without the nanny state that idea isn’t going to end well. More self responsibility, whilst an admirable aim isn’t going to work too well either as were back to the selfish, self entitled thick people.

Naughty Nigel
23rd November 2018, 04:35 PM
You both have valid points, but referring back to the post #1 this morning there is a clear insinuation that Leave voters are more gullible than Remainders. In my view such slurs are unhelpful and do nothing to encourage free thought or heal divisions.

pdk42
23rd November 2018, 04:42 PM
I never accused leavers (or anyone) of being more gullible. My original post was a link to a study, the credentials of which you can see by looking at the link, together with two quotes from it.

The data speak for themselves and it seems there is a link (and a strong one at that) between belief in conspiracy theories and support for Brexit. That is not a coincidence and I think it's clear that there's an underlying belief pattern that supports both.

As for ad hominem attacks - I only see two here and they both seem to be addressed at me. But that's OK.

TimP
23rd November 2018, 04:47 PM
Perhaps slurs on leave voters are justified depending on the reasons for the vote?

Racists deserve slurs perhaps but someone voting for purely financial reasons surely much less so?

Several ‘perhaps’ in there.

bredman
23rd November 2018, 05:15 PM
Whilst I’d be the first to decry the nanny state you can’t help but give it credit for saving many lives and reducing workplace injuries over the years. Autonomy for the family? Really? Too many people are far too thick to be able to handle that or even grasp whet it might entail. Without the nanny state that idea isn’t going to end well. More self responsibility, whilst an admirable aim isn’t going to work too well either as were back to the selfish, self entitled thick people.

Indeed, with liberty comes great individual responsibility. An immense challenge. If only we were given an education to match it, rather than one that pushes us the other way. It would help.

The libertarian mantra is, to own the self - and act accordingly. I do believe we have the potential, and that it would be preferable to Orwell's 1984.

It's not only that governments/politicians shouldn't be trusted, but that they are incompetent. It is said, a person is smart, but people are stupid.

Jim Ford
23rd November 2018, 05:28 PM
You both have valid points, but referring back to the post #1 this morning there is a clear insinuation that Leave voters are more gullible than Remainders. In my view such slurs are unhelpful and do nothing to encourage free thought or heal divisions.

I think that there were far more Leavers that believed the £350 Million for the NHS, written on a bus and promoted by a political opportunist and serial liar, than Remainers!

Jim

Bengeo
23rd November 2018, 05:30 PM
I think people who quote Orwell should read him first. He didn't like Stalin or Russian State communism, but he was always a socialist.

“Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.”

bredman
23rd November 2018, 06:35 PM
I think people who quote Orwell should read him first. He didn't like Stalin or Russian State communism, but he was always a socialist.

“Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.”

Interestingly Orwell separated socialism from statism, as did the ancient Greeks who came up with all this. 1984 is his warning about what statism will look like, and he's absolutely right. Statism refers to size of government, socialism refers to control of means of production (and distribution). Not the same thing but there is a practical link. He couldn't use an oppressive far-right wing government simply because it would have been ludicrous. Political history can be quite interesting whereas modern politics got messed up.

Also, some of the talking points in 1984 have entered the progressive lexicography "the only truth that matters is your truth".

"“How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?”

“Four.”

“And if the Party says that it is not four but five – then how many?”

“Four.”

:)

Jax
23rd November 2018, 06:47 PM
You both have valid points, but referring back to the post #1 this morning there is a clear insinuation that Leave voters are more gullible than Remainders. In my view such slurs are unhelpful and do nothing to encourage free thought or heal divisions.

This thread is leading me to think, apart from a couple of close runners up, Nigel is the only one who talks any sense without expressing an aggressive, needless, thoughtless, unnecessary political bias on here. As he quite correctly points out, name calling, slurs, aimed at opposing political beliefs or opinions, have no place in a genuine discussion on any political topic but some people, no matter how intelligent they appear are unable to grasp the fact.

I often wonder how their conversations would evolve if it was in person, or in a real life discussion group, and not hidden behind a computer. *yes

Jax

Gate Keeper
23rd November 2018, 07:11 PM
Anyone else noticed how authoritarian and coercive progressives are? They love to pontificate about how everyone else is an idiot or somehow blind, unable to grasp simple [leftist] concepts. It's getting annoying. Notice the ad hominem attacks, how they quote higher authorities in arguments, and question one's qualification to hold specific opinions. And they think that because idiot-rags like the Guardian do it, then it's ok for them to do it. Straight out of Saul Alinsky's playbook for the progressive activist.

Progressives are state-worshippers, who believe they are more evolved than the 'gullible'. The rest of us are not stupid though. I'm a libertarian, i don't trust governments, i don't trust politicians or bureaucrats - power corrupts. I don't appreciate state surveillance. I want less of it all, no nanny state please, less collective solutions, more autonomy for the family and individualism, more self-responsibilty.

But i'm an idiot apparently. Because why, i reject political correctness, the mob, groupthink, and SJWs with their transgender hysteria? I'm failing to see what the far-left can contribute outside of a playground of 16 yo schoolgirl activist utopianists.

The Guardian is just confirmation bias for those that think they've got it all sussed. De-politicise yourselves folks, you-re supposed to be free thinking and educated ffs

This forum would be wise to scrap political discussions.

“De-politicise yourself folks ......”

I can’t see anyone complying.....

I think this forum is very lucky to be able to discuss politics without fear of being bumped off or intimidated. Discussing politics on social media in certain parts of the world can be dangerous, even fatal. The worst outcome here is someone gets a ban.

It’s entertaining to see how some of the Pro Brexit camp lick up to each other in these threads with their kiss ass mentality :D :D

To see one or two making unimaginative attempts at bringing down a well thought of and esteemed member, because he quotes The Guardian was acid and desperate. How futile and predictable. PD did not bite back. I commend his response.

Doesn’t everyone read The Guardian? Only teasing :D

The Pro Brexit camp surely can’t take those Guardian studies seriously, the ones about them believing in conspiracy theories and having a low education is laughable. Can’t they see it is being used as ammunition, to create divisions? I don’t expect anyone to know the answer.

Back to reality and unpacking :mad:

bredman
23rd November 2018, 07:12 PM
I often wonder how their conversations would evolve if it was in person, or in a real life discussion group, and not hidden behind a computer. *yes

Jax
I'm only a libertarian mate, harmless honest.:)

Maybe my first post was a bit direct. No offence was intended. Such is life these days, everyone seems to be ducking and weaving, the world is just getting angry. I'm powerless to fix any of it. My partner has a brain tumour, she's wonderful, an angel from heaven, i love to take care of her and that's all that matters.

Scrap the politics and talk photography. Back into the shadows for me.

Jim Ford
23rd November 2018, 07:20 PM
I think people who quote Orwell should read him first. He didn't like Stalin or Russian State communism, but he was always a socialist.

Yes! :tup

My recollection of 1984 was that it was mainly about how a society can be controlled and manipulated by lies from an all powerful privileged elite.

The distraction from the gross inequality in our society by Brexiteer politicians pointing to Brussels (headed by Junker = Goldstein) as being a malevolent bogey-man is reminiscent of the Oceania vs Eurasia fake conflict. Also, the statement by the Chancellor that austerity is at an end, yet there is widespread poverty that a U.N. report recently pointed out, has a parallel with the 1984 'increase' of the chocolate ration, when in fact it had been decreased.

On a lighter note: I've mentioned before that I attend Moorfields eye hospital about once a month for an injection into my right eyeball. At the end of the procedure while I'm still lying on the table, the injecting nurse holds up her hand and asks me how many fingers she's showing - exactly like when Winston Smith is being tortured by O'Brien in 1984. I always smile and ask them if they've read the book but none of them had, though the last - a Romanian nurse took a note and said that she would.

Jim

Jax
23rd November 2018, 07:22 PM
It’s entertaining to see how some of the Pro Brexit camp lick up to each other in these threads with their kiss ass mentality

Yet another prime example of what I referred to in my previous post. Such a futile, childish, nasty comment.

Sometimes it makes me ashamed to be part of this forum.

Jax

TimP
23rd November 2018, 07:22 PM
It's not only that governments/politicians shouldn't be trusted, but that they are incompetent. It is said, a person is smart, but people are stupid.

I think that the politicians we get / have now are the worst they’ve ever been. Either that or I’m more interested in it nowadays. But I do genuinely believe that they are now a bunch of troughing self seeking offspring of unmarried parents.

Jim Ford
23rd November 2018, 07:26 PM
Also, some of the talking points in 1984 have entered the progressive lexicography "the only truth that matters is your truth".

"“How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?”

“Four.”

“And if the Party says that it is not four but five – then how many?”

“Four.”



But in the end he actually saw five, as the film versions showed.

(Anyone remember the early 50's television version with Peter Cushing and Andre Morell?)

Jim

Jax
23rd November 2018, 07:32 PM
I'm only a libertarian mate, harmless honest.:)

Maybe my first post was a bit direct. No offence was intended. Such is life these days, everyone seems to be ducking and weaving, the world is just getting angry. I'm powerless to fix any of it. My partner has a brain tumour, she's wonderful, an angel from heaven, i love to take care of her and that's all that matters.

Scrap the politics and talk photography. Back into the shadows for me.

You were not the focus of my comment Pete, quite the opposite. I sincerely hope and pray your partner has the positive healthy outcome you and your family hope for. *chr

Jax

TimP
23rd November 2018, 07:41 PM
Yet another prime example of what I referred to in my previous post. Such a futile, childish, nasty comment.

Sometimes it makes me ashamed to be part of this forum.

Jax

Really? We’re all different, all have different ideas, some good some bad. Many of mine are bad and I expect many of yours are too. None of us are perfect. I’ve spent time in Muslim countries, communist countries and the one thing that strikes me is that for the most part ordinary people are just that, the world over, ordinary people that want to get on with our lives and hold no malice towards other people, other religions, other ideologies as long as those ideologies are not forced upon us.
The one thing we know we have in common is our love of cameras and photography, let’s not let that be spoilt by different views of the world. If we all shared the same views of the world it would be a pretty tragic place!

Jax
23rd November 2018, 08:18 PM
Really? We’re all different, all have different ideas, some good some bad. Many of mine are bad and I expect many of yours are too. None of us are perfect. I’ve spent time in Muslim countries, communist countries and the one thing that strikes me is that for the most part ordinary people are just that, the world over, ordinary people that want to get on with our lives and hold no malice towards other people, other religions, other ideologies as long as those ideologies are not forced upon us.
The one thing we know we have in common is our love of cameras and photography, let’s not let that be spoilt by different views of the world. If we all shared the same views of the world it would be a pretty tragic place!

I agree with most of that Tim, but my objection is not about anyones beliefs or opinions or any ideologies it's about the manner they choose to express themselves. I actually embrace and enjoy a healthy, lively discussion on any subject but do object when persons who obviously consider themselves intelligent choose to resort to slurs or name calling in an attempt to reinforce their opinions.

Originally Posted by Gate Keeper
It’s entertaining to see how some of the Pro Brexit camp lick up to each other in these threads with their kiss ass mentality


The section in bold is a prime example and the reason for my objection, not the ideas or beliefs behind it.

Jax

Internaut
24th November 2018, 10:47 AM
Before this thread gets (rightly, I think) closed, I’ll make an observation. No one here really attacked the data in the article linked by the OP. Nor did anyone really provide “the alternative facts”. Some did attack the OP and the motivation of the author’s of the article... Sorry, but you lost the argument the moment you did that.

There’s a lot more I can say regarding whether or not Leavers are more likely to be gullible. But that seems out of place here.

Ultimately, I guess the facts are the facts. Jesus shrugged; Atlas wept.

Jim Ford
24th November 2018, 11:29 AM
There’s a lot more I can say regarding whether or not Leavers are more likely to be gullible. But that seems out of place here.


I wish you would say more. It's not out of place as conspiracy, real or imagined, is closely tied to the arguments regarding Brexit.

I don't think the thread should be closed - the reasons why some people are drawn to conspiracy theories are interesting, and I have my own ideas.

(Douglas Adam also touched on the subject in his HHGTTG, in which Arthur Dent said to Slartibartfast something along the lines of: 'I've always felt that there was an invisible something controlling my life!' to which Slartibartfast replied 'No, that's just ordinary paranoia - everyone in The Universe has that!')

Jim

pdk42
24th November 2018, 11:38 AM
I confess that I've been somewhat surprised by how the tone of this thread headed south so fast. Much of the angst seems to be targeted at the participants and the wider forum community rather than the content of the linked article, which I think is very regrettable - but I suppose predictably human. I do wonder whether we'd be better keeping to photography and not straying into politics.

However, Brexit is clearly THE political issue of at least the last 25 years, and maybe of the entire post-war period. The emotions here are indicative of just how much the Brexit journey has divided and separated us. I suppose those divisions have always been there but it's taken this one single issue to bring them to the fore.

I really hope that the country can get through this period. I'm deeply concerned that we've been wounded as a nation - wounded in the relationships between us as citizens and wounded in terms of our power, influence and respect amongst nations. Whatever the PM and government can now achieve I think the damage is done. None of the outcomes are good. Neither TM's deal, no-deal, or remain will put the egg back together.

Shame on you David Cameron...

Otto
24th November 2018, 12:04 PM
With the country split more or less straight down the middle there seems no solution that would please everybody. It's an impossible situation.


I think Douglas Adams would probably come up with a suitable slant on the situation - his philosophers objecting to finding the Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything for instance - "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

Wally
24th November 2018, 12:07 PM
@ pdk42: I'm in complete agreement and couldn't have put it better. :tup

People tend to forget that in any discussion, especially when it comes to politics and religion is a three edged sword. Opinions on the left and opinions on the right and somewher in the middle, is the truth.

As for DC, I think we should give Guido Fawkes a rest and put a different effigy on the bonfires... three guesses... and the first two don't count. *yes

If that doesn't work, we could always ask a certain Amaz-ing company to do a Trump brush version of 'call me Dave.' with toilet rolls to match. :tup ;)

Harold Gough
27th November 2018, 04:37 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/23/study-shows-60-of-britons-believe-in-conspiracy-theories


Quote:
Almost half (47%) of leave voters believe the government has deliberately concealed the truth about how many immigrants live in the UK, versus 14% of remain voters.

They can't hide what they don't know in the first place.

Harold

pdk42
28th November 2018, 03:07 PM
Interesting article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/28/britons-swallowing-conspiracy-theories-stop-rot-research-fake-news

Wally
28th November 2018, 03:22 PM
Interesting article: --> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/28/britons-swallowing-conspiracy-theories-stop-rot-research-fake-news

A smattering of factual news is the insidious part of any fake news item. IE: I don't believe the government are hiding immigrations facts, but I do believe they don't know the real figures. Add to this mix, about them not being on Joe Public's wavelength - which I believe to be true, just makes fake news all the more believable.

If I'm wrong, then like most folks, I do like a good conspiracy. ;)

Internaut
30th November 2018, 12:07 AM
Interesting article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/28/britons-swallowing-conspiracy-theories-stop-rot-research-fake-news

It's the anti vaccine cranks who wind me up. Drive a car dangerously, and you can go to jail. Convince your mates that vaccines don’t work (or worse) and that is fine though the consequences can be as bad. I’ve already a “freind” un-friend me on Facebook over this (asked her how she could live with herself if she’d become an unwitting child killer). Who should we trust in matters of health? Someone with years of education and experience, or a ******* know-nothing imbecile who’s idea of critical thinking is pretty much anything they’re told by people they like? The worst part of all this? The so called Libertarians are the prime enablers of these idiots. I’d never trust a Libertarian with my liberty (or my health).

Rant over. I’ve a holiday in Lanzarote to prepare for.

Naughty Nigel
30th November 2018, 08:11 AM
Far more people trust a 'celebrity' or a 'friend' on Facebook than medical professionals it seems.

RobEW
30th November 2018, 10:30 AM
...

This forum would be wise to scrap political discussions.

(I quoted the only bit which I agreed with)

TimP
30th November 2018, 12:15 PM
Happy to move on to religion if you think that would go better.

Harold Gough
30th November 2018, 12:22 PM
Happy to move on to religion if you think that would go better.

God, no!

Harold

TimP
30th November 2018, 12:28 PM
God, no!

Harold

Looks like you’ve started already.

Ricoh
30th November 2018, 01:06 PM
Happy to move on to religion if you think that would go better.
The best value for money is 'entertaining' the disciples of the Jehovah Witness crew. After 30 minutes, they're clawing at the Windows and doors to be released. Amen

Otto
30th November 2018, 01:14 PM
(I quoted the only bit which I agreed with)

O not again :rolleyes:. This is the Lounge, you're not obliged to read it.

Jax
30th November 2018, 01:49 PM
O not again :rolleyes:. This is the Lounge, you're not obliged to read it.

Exactly Otto, well said *chr

The problem is, if they didn't read it, they would have no reason to moan and their life would seem so unfulfilled *yes

Jax

Jim Ford
30th November 2018, 07:20 PM
Happy to move on to religion if you think that would go better.

All for it - bring it on!

I gave up praying over 70 years ago when I realised that I was talking to myself. I'm right up there with Christopher Hitchins and Richard Dawkins!

Jim

Harold Gough
30th November 2018, 08:01 PM
All for it - bring it on!

I gave up praying over 70 years ago when I realised that I was talking to myself. I'm right up there with Christopher Hitchins and Richard Dawkins!

Jim

It's a conspiracy!

Harold

Pop Alexandra
19th January 2019, 01:33 PM
At the same time, we shouldn’t merely dismiss the angry people.... Anger has a cause and consequences. In my line of business I read last week that Indian outsourcing giant, Tata Consultancy Services, is being taken to court in the US. Apparently, some ninety percent of the staff at their large US offices are in the US on visas. Fake news or real? Doesn’t matter; it will make people angry either way. I predict a second term for Trump*.

That's indeed the case, even though the percentages might be inflated a bit.