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Harold Gough
12th September 2018, 10:25 AM
We are accustomed to taking an adapter with us, to enable use of electric shavers, hair dryers and battery chargers. Have I missed something or are we going to have to do the same when taking fully electric cars into the EU?

Harold

TimP
12th September 2018, 11:50 AM
Good luck with that! I’d assume roadside chargers would have a standard plug you attach to the vehicle, otherwise have fun persuading Pierre to let you snaffle many kilowatts of his precious juice.

CJJE
12th September 2018, 12:14 PM
As far as I'm aware, you need different connectors depending on the make of your car and the charging network -- even in the UK!

And until I can drive 500 miles and recharge in five minutes an electric car won't be replacing my petrol car any time soon!

TimP
12th September 2018, 12:24 PM
I kinda assumed that a Nissan Leaf couldn’t connect to a Tesla charger but I also assumed that a Mitsubishi PHEV could connect to the same charger a Leaf could connect to. If that’s not the case then that’s utterly absurd. If you’re going to try charging via a standard mains socket then better have an overnight stop to fill up, cos you ain’t going nowhere on the 1.5 KW you’ll get out of a mains socket in 30 minutes. Try pulling that via a travel adapter and you’ll need a few to replace the ones that burn out every few minutes!

Zuiko
12th September 2018, 01:25 PM
Just think of all the extra CO2 produced at the power stations, or how many new nuclear power stations will be needed if we all switch to electric cars?

TimP
12th September 2018, 01:35 PM
If the government hadn’t killed the entire UK solar panel industry that would have helped.

Bengeo
12th September 2018, 01:43 PM
If the government hadn’t killed the entire UK solar panel industry that would have helped.


Put the solar panels on the car roof .... sorted! :cool:

MJ224
12th September 2018, 02:03 PM
Just think of all the extra CO2 produced at the power stations, or how many new nuclear power stations will be needed if we all switch to electric cars?

I use Ecotricity, so all my power is from solar and wind...………...*chr

I think Tesla have their own connection as they have their own charge points on the motorway. Otherwise as far as I can see there are two types of connector. My little Citroen has both, and the motorway (Ecotricity) power points have two types of connector.

As said, its madness to have more than one, perhaps two. Just does not work for the industry.

Re mileage and charging times, batteries and chargers are improving. My little car takes 20-30 minutes of fast charge on the motorway, and about 7 hours overnight if the battery is very low.

At the mo, electric cars will not suit everybody, but certainly suits me as I only do 20-40 miles a day.

Re extra CO2 etc, take into account the cost of extracting oil, refining it, and transporting it around the world. As I say, I subscribe to Ecotricity, and the power comes from solar and wind power. Those facilities are much less CO2 emitting than petrol and diesel.

Having said all that, I do run a Mazda RX8 as well, for enjoyment and longer journeys...*smash

CJJE
12th September 2018, 02:12 PM
Just think of all the extra CO2 produced at the power stations, or how many new nuclear power stations will be needed if we all switch to electric cars?

Not to mention the duplicate power grid needed to carry the current!

Or the fact that the short-lived batteries are made from materials that are already in short supply!

The only 'green' power supply is hydrogen, which is easier to source (from sea water etc) and produces more water when it's burnt :)

MJ224
12th September 2018, 02:51 PM
Or the fact that the short-lived batteries are made from materials that are already in short supply!

The only 'green' power supply is hydrogen, which is easier to source (from sea water etc) and produces more water when it's burnt :)

My Citroen battery is now about 7 years old, and though does not have its original capacity still does the job for me.

Re your second point, all personal and public transport is a high energy consumer, and we have to live with that I think. Not just the car and its fuel, cost of road/rail building and airports consume massive amounts of energy.

Helicopters might take an economy badge, as they don't need massive facilities, though they take massive maintenance I believe...

No win situation I think...…………..*chr

Jim Ford
12th September 2018, 03:13 PM
Having said all that, I do run a Mazda RX8 as well, for enjoyment and longer journeys.....

..... and very poor fuel economy!

Jim

MJ224
12th September 2018, 03:51 PM
..... and very poor fuel economy!

Jim

But its worth it...…………...*chr

varies from 22mpg to 27mpg, usually better than those Range Rovers etc.....

Bengeo
12th September 2018, 04:01 PM
My Citroen battery is now about 7 years old, and though does not have its original capacity still does the job for me.



That has been one of my concerns and also about how much a replacement would cost and the possible costs of recycling the old one. How much capacity has it lost?

MJ224
12th September 2018, 04:15 PM
That has been one of my concerns and also about how much a replacement would cost and the possible costs of recycling the old one. How much capacity has it lost?

Its down by about 1/3rd. Original published capacity was 93 miles, and now if I am careful, its down to about 60 miles. But the original published capacity may well have been optimistic, as sales bumf always is.

My Citroen Zero is 7 years old, and battery technology has come on somewhat it that time. latest Nissan Leaf will do 230 miles on a charge.....

All depends on how you drive, 60 mph on a m/w is much more economical than 70. Also heating and cooling in the car takes a bit of juice. So not as comfortable as ICE car some of the time.

Good side is that a trip from Cardiff to Pontarddulais (52 miles) can cost as little as £1.20 ish…………..

Not tackled replacement of the battery, as I would upgrade the car anyway. Disposing of the LION battery is probably not cheap, and might leave a pollution trail, but do not know what that cost is. Don't suppose it would be horrendous, probably no more that scrapping an ICE car...….

I have read reports that areas that mine Lithium are not wonderful places either, but then that's the same for almost all fuels...….

All have upsides and downsides I guess...…….*chr

When I see the big cars on the road these days, Mercs, BMW and the like, we seem to have no problem with spending large amounts of loot on personal transport...…….:confused:

Bengeo
12th September 2018, 04:54 PM
Its down by about 1/3rd. Original published capacity was 93 miles, and now if I am careful, its down to about 60 miles. But the original published capacity may well have been optimistic, as sales bumf always is.



Thanks for that. I treat the quoted range distances the same way we look at the manufacturer's MPG claims! 60 miles ... I would always be worried about getting stuck in traffic and having to drive home with no heating, wipers, lights etc!

MJ224
12th September 2018, 07:42 PM
Thanks for that. I treat the quoted range distances the same way we look at the manufacturer's MPG claims! 60 miles ... I would always be worried about getting stuck in traffic and having to drive home with no heating, wipers, lights etc!

Getting stuck in traffic is not a problem. Slow speeds are economical, and at halt you don't use transmission power (the Lion Battery)

Heating and cooling come from the Lion battery, but lights, wipers radio etc come from a lead acid battery. Which is charged up at the same time as the Lion battery.

For commuting less than 20-30 miles one way is no problem. And very cheap. Zero road tax.....And servicing is relatively cheap as well.

But they won't suit everyone, I have a petrol car in case of emergencies...……...*chr

Naughty Nigel
12th September 2018, 08:34 PM
Just think of all the extra CO2 produced at the power stations, or how many new nuclear power stations will be needed if we all switch to electric cars?

I find it absurd that the electric car industry already has three completely incompatible types of power connector if we include Tesla. The Tesla is undoubtedly a very innovative car, but Elon Musk seems to be modelling himself on the late Steve Jobs in more ways than one.


One fact which is conveniently forgotten by those advocating electric cars is that the charge/discharge cycle of storage batteries is only about 40% efficient, so a lot of precious energy is wasted. There is also quote a lot of energy wasted between the power station and the consumers' premises.

MJ224
12th September 2018, 08:40 PM
And transporting oil around the world is efficient??????????????.*chr

TimP
13th September 2018, 04:30 AM
One fact which is conveniently forgotten by those advocating electric cars is that the charge/discharge cycle of storage batteries is only about 40% efficient, so a lot of precious energy is wasted.

Not sure I understand what you’re saying here, are you saying that for every 10kWh I pull from the mains (and am paying for) only 4 kWh ends up in the car battery? Where does the other 6 go??

It’s early and I’m not thinking straight (again!)

MJ224
13th September 2018, 07:08 AM
Nigel has a point. Certainly in lead acid batteries, they need quite a lot more power to charge them that ends up in the cells. Unsure of the figure. The excess goes in heat, and just gets lost as the cells can only take so much charge at a time. Smart chargers help to reduce that waste. I am no expert on this tho'...….

If price is a factor, ie cost per mile, on the basis that the market charges a reasonable amount for fuel, then the EV's win hands down. 2p a mile is often quoted, whereas a 40mpg ICE costs around 15p per mile. (All a bit ish)

Another pedantic point is the efficiency of a petrol engine. A lot of the fuel burn ends up in heat, certainly wasted in the summer, and noise etc.

The electric vehicle (EV) is in its infancy and will be developed much more IMHO.

Harold Gough
13th September 2018, 07:27 AM
he excess goes in heat, and just gets lost as the cells can only take so much charge at a time. Smart chargers help to reduce that waste.

That doesn't sound quite right (caveat noted). As a lead/acid battery becomes charged the charging current drops, presumably to zero when fully charged.

I have a smart charger for AA and AAA cells. It checks the state of charge and tops it up, recycling fully if nearly empty. I don't know if other "smart" chargers do something similar.

I suspect that, so long as the charging current has to fight against the tendency for the battery to push current in the other direction (back EMF), all charging systems will be quite inefficient.

Harold

MJ224
13th September 2018, 07:43 AM
I am not an expert Harold. I know that my boat lead acids take a large amount of charging to get them 100%. As you say the cell resistance rises as they take more charge.

I did have a smart charge system on the boat, which tricked the cells into taking faster charges. But has since disconnected it as it seemed to have stopped working. My alternator man says that its not needed with the newer alternator that has been fitted....we digress a bit...….:confused:

Zuiko
13th September 2018, 08:53 AM
I use Ecotricity, so all my power is from solar and wind...………...*chr



That's excellent but if we all decided to switch to electric cars, would there be enough green power for everyone?

CJJE
13th September 2018, 11:24 AM
Getting stuck in traffic is not a problem. Slow speeds are economical, and at halt you don't use transmission power (the Lion Battery)

Heating and cooling come from the Lion battery, but lights, wipers radio etc come from a lead acid battery. Which is charged up at the same time as the Lion battery.

For commuting less than 20-30 miles one way is no problem. And very cheap. Zero road tax.....And servicing is relatively cheap as well.

But they won't suit everyone, I have a petrol car in case of emergencies...……...*chr

And there lies the problem, we'll need two cars instead of one!

I've just come back from a week exploring Pembrokeshire, which was a 250 mile drive to get there and back across mid-Wales so I'd have to use my petrol car to take my luggage and make the trip. But an electric car would cope with my normal weekly shopping trips.

And if I went for a hybrid, then I'd only get around 30 miles on the battery and then spend the rest of every journey using the petrol engine and lugging around a heavy battery that takes up what would otherwise be useful boot space! (When I looked at the Golf GTE hybrid I realised that the internal space in it was no more than that in a cheaper petrol-engine Polo :)

Chris

steverh
13th September 2018, 01:10 PM
There's a huge amount of research into batteries and other power sources and I suspect that a few more increases in range and reduced charge times will see an explosion in sales.

Harold Gough
13th September 2018, 01:14 PM
[QUOTE=steverh;45758I suspect that a few more increases in range and reduced charge times will see an explosion in sales.[/QUOTE]

Lithium cells? :eek:

Harold

MJ224
13th September 2018, 01:39 PM
There's a huge amount of research into batteries and other power sources and I suspect that a few more increases in range and reduced charge times will see an explosion in sales.

And of course we need a lot more fast chargers. generally they are only available at motorway service stations. Slow chargers are only of use for overnight charging.

We are the beginning of the mass technology. Does need ironing out to be satisfactory. Suits me though at the mo...………..*chr

CJJE
13th September 2018, 01:59 PM
Following on from my last post, I've been researching to see if I could drive an electric car to Stafford (my local town centre) and charge it up again while I shop.

But no I can't as the only charging points in Stafford are at a couple of hotels it seems, both some way from the shops!

Kami
13th September 2018, 02:23 PM
An article to clear up some misconceptions / for further discussion:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2017/dec/25/how-green-are-electric-cars


and a link to an organisation whose mission is "To accelerate a sustainable shift to low carbon vehicles and fuels in the UK and thereby stimulate opportunities for UK businesses” and who have done some interesting collation of research into issues surrounding low carbon vehicles:

https://www.lowcvp.org.uk/news




@Zuiko - basically, the extra power station stuff would be more than offset by the reduction in usage of fossil fuels in the engines themselves (this both in terms of energy used, and also in terms of CO2 produced). In Norway and France, the difference would be greatest as they rely on hydroelectric and nuclear for energy generation, but we're not talking about NO / FR. Here in the UK, our energy mix has changed in the past few years, but solar and wind are now significant; and gas / nuclear basically form our "backbone" at present, with more gas and also coal-turned-back-on taking up any slack on a calm winter's night.

MJ224
13th September 2018, 04:21 PM
Following on from my last post, I've been researching to see if I could drive an electric car to Stafford (my local town centre) and charge it up again while I shop.

But no I can't as the only charging points in Stafford are at a couple of hotels it seems, both some way from the shops!

https://map.openchargemap.io/

There are quite a few charging points, but I think they are type 2's which are fairly slow chargers. OK for a top up whilst you are waiting....

Another point is that if everyone decided to buy an electric car tomorrow, there are just not enough public charge points around. Bit of a horse and cart situation...……...*chr

PS I used to live in Weeping Cross, very many years ago...……….

Harold Gough
13th September 2018, 04:24 PM
Following on from my last post, I've been researching to see if I could drive an electric car to Stafford (my local town centre) and charge it up again while I shop.

But no I can't as the only charging points in Stafford are at a couple of hotels it seems, both some way from the shops!

You need a towbar and a mobile generator. Problem solved. :D

Harold

CJJE
13th September 2018, 04:45 PM
You need a towbar and a mobile generator. Problem solved. :D

Harold

Or perhaps sails will be easier??;)

CJJE
13th September 2018, 04:51 PM
https://map.openchargemap.io/

There are quite a few charging points, but I think they are type 2's which are fairly slow chargers. OK for a top up whilst you are waiting....

Another point is that if everyone decided to buy an electric car tomorrow, there are just not enough public charge points around. Bit of a horse and cart situation...……...*chr

PS I used to live in Weeping Cross, very many years ago...……….

Interesting... I was using the VW website which took me to the ZAPMAP website, which only shows charging points in car parks, hotels, and weirdly a dentists!

We really need them to be in the major supermarkets I'd suggest rather than car parks if they're not just mopping up demand from commuters. (At least the Trentham Gardens shopping centre has several - which I've yet to see being used ;) )

MJ224
13th September 2018, 05:00 PM
Interesting... I was using the VW website which took me to the ZAPMAP website, which only shows charging points in car parks, hotels, and weirdly a dentists!

We really need them to be in the major supermarkets I'd suggest rather than car parks if they're not just mopping up demand from commuters. (At least the Trentham Gardens shopping centre has several - which I've yet to see being used ;) )

The whole system is a bit messy. You have to subscribe to some of the charging point companies to be able to use their charging points. There was a charging point at a local Asda a couple of years ago, (when charging was free!). I subscribed to the free service, but I never got the charger to work! Thus when they said the free period was over, and they wanted a subscription, I quit. As said I use Ecotricity as my home gas and electric provider. Their Motorway power points are free to me to use, but I have to pay for the amount of power I use. The free bit is a standing charge...….Anyone can use those charging points.

In time I hope it will be easier to use...……….:confused:

Gate Keeper
13th September 2018, 05:44 PM
The whole system is a bit messy. You have to subscribe to some of the charging point companies to be able to use their charging points. There was a charging point at a local Asda a couple of years ago, (when charging was free!). I subscribed to the free service, but I never got the charger to work! Thus when they said the free period was over, and they wanted a subscription, I quit. As said I use Ecotricity as my home gas and electric provider. Their Motorway power points are free to me to use, but I have to pay for the amount of power I use. The free bit is a standing charge...….Anyone can use those charging points.

In time I hope it will be easier to use...……….:confused:

Hello Mark *chr and what about the environment, cutting down on emissions has got to be the way ahead?

Yesterday, I met up with a friend who runs a Mitsubishi Hybrid which he says costs him 70p to charge up. Here he is with his motor next to my 20 year old guzzler, which just passed the MOT with the new emissions test :eek:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c43/GateKeeper_/ACE%20Cafe/ACB0AAA8-2684-4CEF-9A3C-BC381A05A50E.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/GateKeeper_/media/ACE%20Cafe/ACB0AAA8-2684-4CEF-9A3C-BC381A05A50E.jpg.html)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c43/GateKeeper_/ACE%20Cafe/919D7882-4E7E-4DE1-A27C-CE241A5E5582.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/GateKeeper_/media/ACE%20Cafe/919D7882-4E7E-4DE1-A27C-CE241A5E5582.jpg.html)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c43/GateKeeper_/ACE%20Cafe/F9F884B2-A29F-4430-AB80-644F2ED93C51_1.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/GateKeeper_/media/ACE%20Cafe/F9F884B2-A29F-4430-AB80-644F2ED93C51_1.jpg.html)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c43/GateKeeper_/ACE%20Cafe/275CFF8A-411B-417F-B462-926249E22C92.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/GateKeeper_/media/ACE%20Cafe/275CFF8A-411B-417F-B462-926249E22C92.jpg.html)

TimP
13th September 2018, 07:38 PM
How much electricity does that 70p provide?

MJ224
13th September 2018, 07:38 PM
Its a beginning of a time of change. Alas, my RX8 is becoming a bit of a relic. We will all have to come to terms with fossil fuels becoming extinct. Our grandchildren will be running totally different technology, or at least well modified transport...………

But heyho, enjoy what we are used to whilst it lasts...………….*chr

Gate Keeper
13th September 2018, 07:41 PM
How much electricity does that 70p provide?

A question, I for one cannot answer.

MJ224
13th September 2018, 08:08 PM
How much electricity does that 70p provide?

With my little Citroen Zero, about 40 miles or so, depends on how you drive etc...……...*chr

Naughty Nigel
13th September 2018, 08:50 PM
And transporting oil around the world is efficient??????????????.*chr

These days it is more about transporting LNG (liquefied natural gas) around the world to pump in to the UK gas grid and power gas fired power stations generating electricity for, amongst other things, 'eco friendly' electric cars.

LNG is also synthesised into diesel fuel oil and chemical derivatives. Crude oil is less important now than in the past.

There is also a huge business in shipping wood pellets from the Americas to the UK and Europe to burn as 'biomass' in electricity generating stations and for steam heating. (This was the subject of a political scandal in Northern Ireland).

Naughty Nigel
13th September 2018, 09:00 PM
Not sure I understand what you’re saying here, are you saying that for every 10kWh I pull from the mains (and am paying for) only 4 kWh ends up in the car battery? Where does the other 6 go??

It’s early and I’m not thinking straight (again!)

Sorry for the delay in replying as I am on holiday at the mo.

What I am saying is that storage batteries are far from 100% efficient. For every one KW/Hr that you put in you will only get about 400 - 600 Watt/Hrs out.

The remaining energy is lost as heat, and in electrolysis of the electrolyte, with oxygen and hydrogen being liberated from the cells. These processes ultimately shorten cell life too.

MJ224
13th September 2018, 09:15 PM
I know Nigel blows a tappet or two when talking about EV's...………

Keep cool N, enjoy the holiday...……...*chr*chr

Naughty Nigel
13th September 2018, 09:38 PM
I know Nigel blows a tappet or two when talking about EV's...………

Keep cool N, enjoy the holiday...……...*chr*chr

I just don't believe EV's are the answer. The whole process is so wasteful. But then I don't think burning fossil fuels in internal combustion engines or power stations is the answer either.

EV's are pollution free at the point of use, but they produce even more pollution 'somewhere else'.

I strongly believe that if mankind is to survive we need to completely reappraise the way that we live rather than just trying to clean up inherently dirty practices. My point is, do we really need to travel and transport goods in the way that we do now, and can our planet sustain it?

The internal combustion engine made it possible for millions of us to commute to work and make all manner of unnecessary journeys, but at huge environmental and personal cost. EV's do nothing to address this fundamental problem, but just shift the damage elsewhere so we can all feel smug.

Some with longer memories may remember that not so long ago diesel engines were going to save the planet. :rolleyes:

DerekW
13th September 2018, 10:02 PM
probably still will using an Adblue process to get rid of NO2 issue

Otto
14th September 2018, 08:10 AM
Something will turn up. Don't forget that at the turn of the last century people were concerned about the future depth of horse dung on the streets of London as the population grew :). There was an ineresting documentary on the telly a while back about the conversion of Drax power station from coal to wood pellets, which suggested that burning wood pellets actually produced more CO2 per KWh of electricity produced than coal! But it reduced the amout of fossil fuel being burned so was politically correct.

MJ224
14th September 2018, 11:42 AM
These days it is more about transporting LNG (liquefied natural gas) around the world to pump in to the UK gas grid and power gas fired power stations generating electricity for, amongst other things, 'eco friendly' electric cars.

LNG is also synthesised into diesel fuel oil and chemical derivatives. Crude oil is less important now than in the past.

There is also a huge business in shipping wood pellets from the Americas to the UK and Europe to burn as 'biomass' in electricity generating stations and for steam heating. (This was the subject of a political scandal in Northern Ireland).

That is a very good point. Oil is such a huge chemical stock, for medicines evil plastic etc. Just to burn it is a waste in the long run...……..

As for burning biomass, I think they justified as you can grow it again. But fallen trees support so much insect and plant life, without which the whole natural system breaks down...…..

Humanity...………..But hopefully we are getting smarter (oh yea)..*chr

Naughty Nigel
16th September 2018, 09:46 PM
How much electricity does that 70p provide?

Around 5 KW/Hr (at 15 pence per KW/Hr), which wouldn't get you very far.

To put it into perspective, you could boil a 3 KW electric kettle for around an hour and a half for the same money, or run a 10 KW electric shower for half an hour.

At a guess, you would need around 10 KW to maintain a speed of 70 MPH on the motorway on level ground. You would need additional power (say 2KW) for heating in wintertime, which comes free with an internal combustion engine!

Hybrid cars clearly have advantages in stop-start traffic, provided the traffic jam is not too long, but they actually use more energy (with greater emissions) if driving on uncluttered roads.

A friend ran a Mitsubishi plug in hybrid 4 x 4 for three years, but sold it and bought a Jag F-Pace because he was so disappointed with the fuel economy. He now gets 60 MPG plus on a run, which is nearly double what he could achieve with the Mitsubishi.

Gate Keeper
17th September 2018, 12:49 AM
Oh for the love of an imaginary friend......the evidence :D

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mitsubishi/outlander-phev/specs

Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV prices and specs

PRICES AND SPECS

Name sort icon 0-62mph Top speed CO2 MPG

2.0 PHEV 3H 5dr Auto 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg

2.0 PHEV 3H 5dr Auto (Leather) 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV 4H 5dr Auto 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV 4HS 5dr Auto 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV 5H 5dr Auto 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV 5HS 5dr Auto 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV Juro 5dr Auto 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV Juro 5dr Auto (Leather) 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV Kotu 5dr Auto 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV Kotu 5dr Auto (Leather) 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg

Naughty Nigel
17th September 2018, 08:22 AM
Oh for the love of an imaginary friend......the evidence :D

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mitsubishi/outlander-phev/specs

Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV prices and specs

PRICES AND SPECS

Name sort icon 0-62mph Top speed CO2 MPG

2.0 PHEV 3H 5dr Auto 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg

2.0 PHEV 3H 5dr Auto (Leather) 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV 4H 5dr Auto 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV 4HS 5dr Auto 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV 5H 5dr Auto 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV 5HS 5dr Auto 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV Juro 5dr Auto 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV Juro 5dr Auto (Leather) 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV Kotu 5dr Auto 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg
2.0 PHEV Kotu 5dr Auto (Leather) 11.00secs 106mph 41g/km 166.10mpg


Oh for the love of imaginary specifications. :rolleyes:

Do you really believe this stuff? *upsided

Wasn't there even a suggestions that some of VW Audi group NOX emissions were higher than they should have been?

Specifications are fairly meaningless unless you know how they have been arrived at. Claimed MPG is also meaningless when you find yourself at a filling station far more often than the salesman and marketing bollox led you to expect. Just in case you weren't aware the claimed figures are not always true in the real world.

The friend I referred to is real, and is a retired university professor. He is fastidious in record keeping and had entered detailed information about fuel spend, volume and mileage into an Excel spreadsheet.

MPG when using a fully charged battery is of course zero, but he found that the mileage achievable on battery power alone was much lower than the nominal 25 miles than he was led to expect. MPG on longer journeys around Devon where he lives worked out at little better than 30 MPG average.

By contrast he now enjoys reported MPG's of 60 + from his new F-Pace, although his detailed records show that the best true MPG achievable is closer to 54 MPG - a figure that I would concur with from my own XF 3.0.

As an added bonus he no longer has to drive a car which at best could be described as hideous in my view, and is also built in the UK.

For what it is worth I have included the F-Pace specifications below, but do not claim these are any more accurate than those of other manufacturers.

Jaguar F-Pace prices and Specs from the same source.

2.0d Portfolio 5dr 8.50secs 130mph 129g/km 57.70mpg £39 450
2.0d Portfolio 5dr Auto AWD 8.70secs 129mph 139g/km 53.30mpg £43 060
2.0d Portfolio 5dr AWD 8.70secs 129mph 134g/km 54.30mpg £41 310
2.0d Prestige 5dr 8.50secs 130mph 129g/km 57.70mpg £34 450
2.0d Prestige 5dr Auto AWD 8.70secs 129mph 139g/km 53.30mpg £38 060
2.0d Prestige 5dr AWD 8.70secs 129mph 134g/km 54.30mpg £36 310
2.0d R-Sport 5dr 8.50secs 130mph 129g/km 57.70mpg £36 950
2.0d R-Sport 5dr Auto AWD 8.70secs 129mph 139g/km 53.30mpg £40 560
2.0d R-Sport 5dr AWD 8.70secs 129mph 134g/km 54.30mpg £38 810
3.0 Supercharged V6 S 5dr Auto AWD 5.50secs 155mph 209g/km 31.70mpg £51 595
3.0d V6 1st Edition 5dr Auto AWD 5.80secs 150mph 159g/km 47.10mpg £64 520
3.0d V6 S 5dr Auto AWD 6.20secs 150mph 159g/km 47.10mpg £51 595

Jim Ford
17th September 2018, 08:53 AM
MPG when using a fully charged battery is of course zero

Actually ∞, but IKWYM! (GPM is zero)

;)

Jim

Gate Keeper
17th September 2018, 08:55 AM
Clearly the fuel economy for the Pace is poor when compared to the Mitsubishi Electric Hybrid.

Jim Ford
17th September 2018, 09:36 AM
Didn't Top Gear do a test where a Prius went round a circuit with a BMW M3 following, and the BMW returned the same fuel consumption?

Jim

MJ224
17th September 2018, 09:38 AM
IMHO, the Phev and similar hybrids are just a tax fiddle.

30 miles battery capacity is a joke. They are able to call themselves an electric car and this get subsidies from the government, zero road tax and if unfortunate enough to live near London, no pollution tax to enter that den...:confused:

Gate Keeper
17th September 2018, 09:49 AM
Didn't Top Gear do a test where a Prius went round a circuit with a BMW M3 following, and the BMW returned the same fuel consumption?

Jim

This is a link about it and top gear video from tree hugger dot com.
https://www.treehugger.com/cars/why-top-gear-got-it-all-wrong-in-prius-vs-bmw-m3.html

Gate Keeper
17th September 2018, 10:00 AM
IMHO, the Phev and similar hybrids are just a tax fiddle.

30 miles battery capacity is a joke. They are able to call themselves an electric car and this get subsidies from the government, zero road tax and if unfortunate enough to live near London, no pollution tax to enter that den...:confused:

You are correct Mark. Courtesy of Lord Mayor Khan. Now he is calling for a second referendum, his game - vote winner or political suicide. He should be concentrating on more policing of the streets and cutting back on murders ......On the plus side, reducing pollution in London has to be a good thing.

Otto
17th September 2018, 10:26 AM
I have a friend who has a Toyota Prius and he was amazed when I told him the average mpg I get from my (petrol) Alfa Giulietta. About 10% better than his Prius!

Naughty Nigel
17th September 2018, 01:04 PM
Clearly the fuel economy for the Pace is poor when compared to the Mitsubishi Electric Hybrid.

Why 'clearly'? That was not my experience when I was loaned an F-Pace for a few days as a courtesy car.

My only disappointment was that it wasn't an F-Type. That would have been fun. :D

Naughty Nigel
17th September 2018, 01:13 PM
I have a friend who has a Toyota Prius and he was amazed when I told him the average mpg I get from my (petrol) Alfa Giulietta. About 10% better than his Prius!

Why should anyone be surprised by this?

It is generally better to shorten supply chains as much as possible.

It makes more sense to connect an engine directly to a clutch, gearbox and driving wheels than to drive a generator to charge a battery to drive a motor to drive the wheels. If you charge the batteries from the mains it just gets worse unless you have plentiful supplies of genuinely clean energy such as hydro or wind power.

The Prius only benefits in mixed driving conditions where it spends at least some time in stop-start traffic having been driven on open roads first. There is no benefit in only driving a hybrid on open roads. Similarly there is no benefit in only driving a hybrid in towns unless it can be charged from the mains first.

Gate Keeper
19th September 2018, 10:59 PM
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c43/GateKeeper_/GIF%20Maker/81A463D4-5BCA-47E3-A48B-1B2A3DFF5B50.gif (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/GateKeeper_/media/GIF%20Maker/81A463D4-5BCA-47E3-A48B-1B2A3DFF5B50.gif.html)

Spoil yourself NN :D

Ian
23rd April 2019, 09:22 AM
Its down by about 1/3rd. Original published capacity was 93 miles, and now if I am careful, its down to about 60 miles. But the original published capacity may well have been optimistic, as sales bumf always is.

My Citroen Zero is 7 years old, and battery technology has come on somewhat it that time. latest Nissan Leaf will do 230 miles on a charge.....

All depends on how you drive, 60 mph on a m/w is much more economical than 70. Also heating and cooling in the car takes a bit of juice. So not as comfortable as ICE car some of the time.

Good side is that a trip from Cardiff to Pontarddulais (52 miles) can cost as little as £1.20 ish…………..

Not tackled replacement of the battery, as I would upgrade the car anyway. Disposing of the LION battery is probably not cheap, and might leave a pollution trail, but do not know what that cost is. Don't suppose it would be horrendous, probably no more that scrapping an ICE car...….

I have read reports that areas that mine Lithium are not wonderful places either, but then that's the same for almost all fuels...….

All have upsides and downsides I guess...…….*chr

When I see the big cars on the road these days, Mercs, BMW and the like, we seem to have no problem with spending large amounts of loot on personal transport...…….:confused:

This thread has caught my eye as we're going to go electric soon.

There are Type 1 and Type 2 connectors for charging and the vast majority of cars in Europe now use Type 2. There are adapters available and some cars are supplied with them.

Teslas use the Type 2 connector so you can charge a Tesla using most charging stations but their Supercharger network is exclusive to Tesla users. If you plugged your Leaf in nothing would happen :D

We're looking at a used (3 year old 70,000 miles) Tesla Model S :eek: (Our main car is basically clapped-out now and Julia is treating herself as she has had a very tough last couple of years and she commutes while I work from home).

I'm quite surprised you have lost as much as a third of your battery capacity with the Citroen. Tesla batteries, by all accounts, wear extremely well and I can expect around 5 or 6 percent range degradation for the car we are looking at and most of that will have happened in the first year.

Can't wait but the dealer is making us do just that - we put a reserve down over two weeks ago and the car is still not ready for viewing :(

Ian

DerekW
23rd April 2019, 09:48 AM
ready for viewing - probably waiting for the fire to go out <g> Which model car are you getting.

TimP
23rd April 2019, 09:57 AM
I’d love a Tesla although I understand they can be horrendously expensive should anything go wrong (talking car stuff rather than battery)

As much as I want to go electric I’m holding out for when the car can be used as a battery for the home. It’s coming but nothing as yet here in the UK.

Ian
23rd April 2019, 10:08 AM
ready for viewing - probably waiting for the fire to go out <g> Which model car are you getting.

An 85D :)

Ian

Ian
23rd April 2019, 10:10 AM
I’d love a Tesla although I understand they can be horrendously expensive should anything go wrong (talking car stuff rather than battery)

As much as I want to go electric I’m holding out for when the car can be used as a battery for the home. It’s coming but nothing as yet here in the UK.

The main bits (motors and battery) are covered for 8 years. The rest of the car is, basically a car - so I think just the same.

Ian

TimP
23rd April 2019, 10:16 AM
The main bits (motors and battery) are covered for 8 years. The rest of the car is, basically a car - so I think just the same.

Ian

You’d think! I’d be inclined to check as even availability is likely to be problematic given the relatively low numbers of vehicles out there.

MJ224
23rd April 2019, 10:39 AM
Mileage does vary quite a lot. Charging temperature is one of the bigger factors. Wam to hot weather puts more power in. I get a fairly consistent 50 miles at the mo.

Naughty Nigel
24th April 2019, 12:24 PM
I tried to persuade SWMBO that we should buy her an electric car for her daily commute to work; a round trip of roughly 22 miles in mixed traffic conditions.

She wouldn't have it because she worries about running out of power even though I have explained that it is little different to running out of petrol or diesel, and that there will be plenty of warnings that the batteries are low.

So instead we bought a petrol Corsa 1.4 SE with all of the toys. It is a nice car and has low road tax thanks to its 'low emissions' but actually drinks a lot more fuel than my Jag. How does that work? :rolleyes:

Jax
24th April 2019, 12:34 PM
I've just spent 5 mins wondering where all the recent Tesla posts had gone :confused:

Now realised it's the similar topic but a different thread ! :D

Yes, I know, It's an age thing *yes

Jax

TimP
24th April 2019, 01:42 PM
I tried to persuade SWMBO that we should buy her an electric car for her daily commute to work; a round trip of roughly 22 miles in mixed traffic conditions.

She wouldn't have it because she worries about running out of power even though I have explained that it is little different to running out of petrol or diesel, and that there will be plenty of warnings that the batteries are low.

So instead we bought a petrol Corsa 1.4 SE with all of the toys. It is a nice car and has low road tax thanks to its 'low emissions' but actually drinks a lot more fuel than my Jag. How does that work? :rolleyes:

I’m sure ‘range anxiety’ is a huge thing, much more so for EV than ICE vehicles. At least with those you can often walk to a garage buy a can and pop enough fuel in to get you home or back to the self same garage for a proper fill. Drive an EV and you are totally stuffed, not even sure that the AA (other expensive emergency services are available) can do anything. So it’s a big thing and I can fully understand that.

Women drivers often don’t know what the pedal on the right is for, it’s often binary as far as they are concerned. My wife gets around 20% less mpg driving my old car.

Naughty Nigel
24th April 2019, 02:02 PM
I’m sure ‘range anxiety’ is a huge thing, much more so for EV than ICE vehicles. At least with those you can often walk to a garage buy a can and pop enough fuel in to get you home or back to the self same garage for a proper fill. Drive an EV and you are totally stuffed, not even sure that the AA (other expensive emergency services are available) can do anything. So it’s a big thing and I can fully understand that.


I would imagine the breakdown services will have to start carrying portable generators to provide enough power to get to the nearest charging point.

We often hear reports/warnings of motorway service stations being without fuel for whatever reason, but what about charging points?

For most people driving another twenty miles to the next motorway services isn't a biggie unless they are in the habit of using the last drop. In any case most people try to avoid motorway filling stations and their extortionate prices. Non-functioning charging points would be a problem though, especially for those EV's with limited range.


Women drivers often don’t know what the pedal on the right is for, it’s often binary as far as they are concerned.

They have the same problem with room thermostats. Setting the things at a comfortable temperature and then leaving them alone just isn't an option. :rolleyes:

Otto
24th April 2019, 02:11 PM
They have the same problem with room thermostats. Setting the things at a comfortable temperature and then leaving them alone just isn't an option. :rolleyes:

That's not exclusive to women, I had a male colleague who entirely failed to understand the thermostat on the space heater at work. It was one of those big gas-fired things that blows warm air, and once the stat cuts out it almost immediately feels colder. So he'd turn the stat up a few degrees only to have to turn it back down again when it got too hot, repeating the process ad nauseam (or until going home time). Leaving it set half way between those two extremes was lost on him!

MJ224
24th April 2019, 03:41 PM
I tried to persuade SWMBO that we should buy her an electric car for her daily commute to work; a round trip of roughly 22 miles in mixed traffic conditions.

She wouldn't have it because she worries about running out of power even though I have explained that it is little different to running out of petrol or diesel, and that there will be plenty of warnings that the batteries are low.



My Citroen Zero, as all EV's, give you a readout as to how many miles are left in the "tank". Once on zero, you probably have a couple of miles left. You get used to working out the range versus miles to the destination. It does need a bit of forward planning. I have only run out of juice once, a couple of miles from home. RAC kindly towed me home...…...*chr

Range is far more precise than an ICE...……...:)

Naughty Nigel
24th April 2019, 03:47 PM
My Citroen Zero, as all EV's, give you a readout as to how many miles are left in the "tank". Once on zero, you probably have a couple of miles left. You get used to working out the range versus miles to the destination. It does need a bit of forward planning. I have only run out of juice once, a couple of miles from home. RAC kindly towed me home...…...*chr

Range is far more precise than an ICE...……...:)

I suspect turning the radio down will help? :D

MJ224
24th April 2019, 04:06 PM
I suspect turning the radio down will help? :D

Nope...…..Radio, lights etc come from a separate Lead Acid battery. Transmission and heating/ AC come from the main battery...…….*chr

Zuiko
24th April 2019, 05:27 PM
I tried to persuade SWMBO that we should buy her an electric car for her daily commute to work; a round trip of roughly 22 miles in mixed traffic conditions.

She wouldn't have it because she worries about running out of power even though I have explained that it is little different to running out of petrol or diesel, and that there will be plenty of warnings that the batteries are low.

So instead we bought a petrol Corsa 1.4 SE with all of the toys. It is a nice car and has low road tax thanks to its 'low emissions' but actually drinks a lot more fuel than my Jag. How does that work? :rolleyes:

But you can walk or get a lift to the nearest petrol station and return with a 5 litre can to get you out of trouble - try that with electricity!

MJ224
24th April 2019, 05:31 PM
But you can walk or get a lift to the nearest petrol station and return with a 5 litre can to get you out of trouble - try that with electricity!

Not always a petrol station within (reasonable) walking distance John. Ring RAC or AA for help...……….*chr

Zuiko
24th April 2019, 05:34 PM
Not always a petrol station within (reasonable) walking distance John. Ring RAC or AA for help...……….*chr

Well yes, but do they carry spare electricity too? :D

Ian
24th April 2019, 07:26 PM
Nope...…..Radio, lights etc come from a separate Lead Acid battery. Transmission and heating/ AC come from the main battery...…….*chr

The conventional 12V battery is fed by the main battery pack though :)

I managed to flatten the battery in our Astra because I forgot to disconnect the dashcam (for some reason the 12V accessory port in the Astra stays powered even when the ignition is off).

Ian

MJ224
25th April 2019, 07:19 AM
The conventional 12V battery is fed by the main battery pack though :)

I managed to flatten the battery in our Astra because I forgot to disconnect the dashcam (for some reason the 12V accessory port in the Astra stays powered even when the ignition is off).

Ian


I guess there must be a connection somewhere. I know on the only occasion I ran out of power, the emergency lights were very bright. Thus the lead acid is fairly well charged at the point of the main batteries going phut………….*chr

Naughty Nigel
25th April 2019, 08:04 AM
I guess there must be a connection somewhere. I know on the only occasion I ran out of power, the emergency lights were very bright. Thus the lead acid is fairly well charged at the point of the main batteries going phut………….*chr

It would make sense to have one battery charger charging the main battery (which is high voltage), which in turn charges the low voltage lead acid battery.

There is probably a legal requirement that the lights (and hazard warning lights) must continue to work if or after the main battery system fails, so again it would make sense that the LA battery is maintained by the larger main battery whilst the car is being driven. Without this arrangement the lights would go out long before the car ran out of motive power.