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pandora
4th August 2018, 03:47 AM
Having bought a new computer to replace my previous 10yrs old crashed machine running Windows7, I now find myself in company with Windows10. What on earth was the intellectually paralysed Microsoft thinking of when it released this monstrous product. My advice, anyone running Windows7 should hold on to it and definitely not make a switch unless it be to an Apple Mac.

pdk42
4th August 2018, 07:06 AM
Yes, I agree. I hate Win 10 with a vengeance. Still, at least it's better than Windows 8!

Wally
4th August 2018, 07:27 AM
Yes, I agree. I hate Win 10 with a vengeance. Still, at least it's better than Windows 8!


A dead computer would be better than W8. *yes

Phill D
4th August 2018, 07:42 AM
OK as someone who needs to get a new PC fairly soon and who is currently on Win 7 dare I ask what is wrong with Win10?
I'm likely to stay with Microsoft but there is a large faction in my local camera club who say I really should switch to apple? just not sure I want to add all that extra hassle to the learning curve.

DerekW
4th August 2018, 07:57 AM
Fear of the Apple conversion, the conversion is not as bad as you think - plenty of books and web sites available plus you can get help at Mac user groups.

I converted in 2004 - I ran the old machine and system in parallel for about a year and discovere the space the old system was taking in my study was not justified so I did a final transfer and got rid of the old way of life.

If you used Unix in your working life you know far more about the Apple system than you
realise.

Wally
4th August 2018, 08:04 AM
In my case, I can sum it up in a single word... bloatware.

I don't need 90% + of what comes preiinstalled, such as games, x-box etc., The updates have also proved problematic in that in many cases they take an age to instal or, they refuse to instal. You can clear up many of the unwanted items but in some instances these just get replaced.

The upside, again for me, is that you can upgrade memory and hard disks easily in a laptop and can even totally upgrade a desktop at component level from the mainboard upwards if you are that way inclined. In addition you are not tied into a single OS system. All of this, is of course down to your skill level set.

Jim Ford
4th August 2018, 08:11 AM
Having bought a new computer to replace my previous 10yrs old crashed machine running Windows7, I now find myself in company with Windows10. What on earth was the intellectually paralysed Microsoft thinking of when it released this monstrous product. My advice, anyone running Windows7 should hold on to it and definitely not make a switch unless it be to an Apple Mac.

I 100% agree Mark - except for the Mac bit!

Jim

Naughty Nigel
4th August 2018, 09:07 AM
Yes, I agree. I hate Win 10 with a vengeance. Still, at least it's better than Windows 8!

Windows 8 or 8.1?

I really like W8.1 and have never had a problem with it. I also like W7 but it is getting a bit long in the tooth now, and is slower loading than W8.1.

Interestingly, and contrary to opinions stated here, Windows 10 actually has a smaller footprint when up and running than either Windows 7 or 8.1.

I did run Windows 8 for a while on my laptop and had no problems with it, but it auto-updated to W8.1 which I am happy with.

The problems of crapware are often down to manufacturers and outlets like PC World looking to make extra money rather than Microsoft. You can buy Windows 10 quite cheaply to do a fresh install and you won't get all of the crapware with it.

Naughty Nigel
4th August 2018, 09:32 AM
On switching to Mac; Apple undoubtedly make some very good machines but you pay very heavily for the privilege. Not for nothing has Apple become the worlds first $1 Trillion company this week!

The Apple OS is excellent and seems to work better with photographs and video than Windows, but not all software will work with it. Sage accounts for example won't work with Apple.

Also, make sure you buy the machine that you want and need. You cannot add graphics cards or other adaptors to most Mac machines, whilst adding memory, changing hard drives or CPU's is generally a no-no. Apple wants you to buy top spec from the Apple shop, at sky high prices; not from online sellers.

Apple displays (on the iMac) are particularly good, but unfortunately they no longer make stand alone displays for Mac Minis and the like.

I have also heard complaints about the new Macbooks, because they only have one connector now, so you have to buy expensive adaptors if you want to charge your Macbook whilst using a USB device.

Steve Jobs was known to be a control freak and true to form, Apple is a very controlling company!

pandora
4th August 2018, 11:50 AM
Unless I'm missing something the most frustrating aspect of Win10 is the inability to display two web pages side by side on the home screen. It's default browser is IE (vers. presently unknown).

IE7 on the crashed machine lets me copy the image URL from my forum gallery but the browser on the new machine doesn't. To post an image requires dragging the url into Word then copy and paste into a new post. This is a far cry from the simple IE 7 select the url, copy and paste it as a new post.

Jim Ford
4th August 2018, 12:07 PM
A few years ago I bought a new machine to use PS on, and installed W7 on it. It worked OK, but when W10 came along I was persuaded to install the free W10 'upgrade'. Immediately afterwards the system spewed all my files across the screen, filling it.

W10 truly is horrible - vile even!

Jim

Otto
4th August 2018, 02:52 PM
A year or so ago I would have agreed about sticking with W7 but W10 has finally matured into a reasonably stable and reliable OS. Sure, the unstoppable upgrades can be a pita (why does it always want to update when I want to shut the pc down and leave the house in a hurry?) but otherwise I wouldn't go back to W7. I don't like the built-in Photo and Video apps but you can disable those and stick with Photo Viewer and Media Player, and you can disable 90% of the spyware. I certainly wouldn't consider a Chromebook given Google's raison d'etre!

KeithL
4th August 2018, 03:23 PM
I have to say that:
a) I bought a refurb windows machine with W7Pro 64 bit preinstalled on it. It worked well at first, then the problems started in true Microsoft pattern. It dorve me spare. After about two years, I was spending more time fixing problem after every update - and sometimes it was three a day! - than using the machine for useful work. I then bought a Macbook - a refurb again - found it utterly stable and reliable, and I still have it. Later I bought a refurb iMac 21 inch, and I can only say that it is the most reliable computer I have ever had.

b) I have a Windows phone. Yup, I'm a glutton for punishment! Runs Win 8.1, and it has been OK. Some very poor design features, but i don't care, it does all I need.

Would I go back to Windows? Er, would I like a hole in the head done with an electric drill? I'll leave you to 'go figure', as the Yanks say.

OM USer
4th August 2018, 05:02 PM
I quite like W8.1; W8 was a disaster. NT4 was nice as well. I could give W10 a miss. My 8.1 tried to update to 10 - emphasis on the tried - and it was a right royal pain to get it back to a useable W8.1 again as it was stuck in limbo.

Harold Gough
4th August 2018, 08:17 PM
OK as someone who needs to get a new PC fairly soon and who is currently on Win 7 dare I ask what is wrong with Win10?
I'm likely to stay with Microsoft but there is a large faction in my local camera club who say I really should switch to apple? just not sure I want to add all that extra hassle to the learning curve.

I dreaded the upgrade to W10 but it is the best move ever. W7 was crap.

I recently sorted the update installation failure issue and have no remaining ones. (I got ride of Edge, which is an irritating nuisance).

Harold

Harold Gough
4th August 2018, 08:22 PM
Unless I'm missing something the most frustrating aspect of Win10 is the inability to display two web pages side by side on the home screen.

I have two screens side by side. No problem.

Harold

Harold Gough
4th August 2018, 08:29 PM
(why does it always want to update when I want to shut the pc down and leave the house in a hurry?)

In Settings, Windows Update, you should be able to set a day up to 5 days later, for a pending installation to happen. I put mine off for weeks by repeatedly don that.

Harold

Jim Ford
4th August 2018, 09:26 PM
NT4 was nice as well.

The joke about NT4 was that it would give a message 'Windows has detected that your mouse has moved. Please reboot for new settings to take effect'!

Jim

pdk42
4th August 2018, 09:31 PM
My objection to Win 10 is on four main points really:

- It's so UGLY. Win 7 had a very consistent and cohesive UI design and I liked it. Win 10 is a dog's breakfast of mixed UIs (Metro + Win classic) and to make it worse, it's all so flat, grey and monotonous. Ugly, ugly, ugly - did I mention ugly!

- It's trying to be an OS for both a tablet and a desktop and failing on both. Apple's approach is better - MacOS for the desktop and iOS for tablets and phones. Trying to ram both desktop and tablet into one experience just doesn't work. The prime example is that awful Win 10 tiles stuff - it's bad enough on a tablet, but just totally inappropriate on a desktop.

- It's really not that stable. My work laptop is a Microsoft Surface Book and yet I get frequent BSODs. Microsoft OS on Microsoft hardware should be better than this.

- The system for installing updates is clunky, unstable and can easily eat up hours of your CPU time doing precisely nothing. It also leaves GB of archive stuff on your hard disk that just can't be deleted.

My desktop at home (self build from MoBo upwards) runs Win 7 and it's fast and stable. I love it.

As regards Mac - I really like lots of things about Macs (nice OS, great hardware, beautiful UI), but I struggle to go Apple for two main reasons:

- The Apple eco-system is highly proprietary and closed. They'll exploit you commercially since you won't have options to go elsewhere.

- It's over-priced.

I've got seriously close to buying a Macbook before but these points have always made me hesitate.

Naughty Nigel
4th August 2018, 09:53 PM
My desktop at home (self build from MoBo upwards) runs Win 7 and it's fast and stable. I love it.

As regards Mac - I really like lots of things about Macs (nice OS, great hardware, beautiful UI), but I struggle to go Apple for two main reasons:

- The Apple eco-system is highly proprietary and closed. They'll exploit you commercially since you won't have options to go elsewhere.

- It's over-priced.

I've got seriously close to buying a Macbook before but these points have always made me hesitate.

But Apple has a strong cult following and the Apple acolytes won't have a word said against the company! :D

I do like a lot of Apple equipment, and the OS is slick, but it is far too closed and far too expensive. The hardware is expensive enough to begin with, but the adaptors that you need to make it work can easily add £200 to the cost.

I like the MacBooks, although they are very heavy. However, I rely on mobile internet (4G) which Apple simply doesn't support. I have queried this, and was told that Apple expects you to buy an iPhone or 4G enabled iPad to pair with the MacBook. I have had built in internet in my Toshiba laptops since about 2005, so why not Apple? Its not as if they don't have the technology.

And why does Apple make it impossible to add SD card storage to the iPhone and iPad? Presumably the same reason that they don't allow you to upgrade the Mac Mini or the iMac. They want the money up front, and want the lower spec machines to become obsolete as soon as possible.

Whatever criticism you level at Windows machines at least most of them can easily be repaired and upgraded without the help of a 'Genius'.

Interestingly, I don't think IOS is quite as quick and slick as Apple would like us to believe. Both my iPod and iPad wake up virtually instantly from their usual 'sleeping' state, but that means the battery runs flat within a few days. I therefore turn mine off altogether if I don't need them, but a cold boot takes ages - much longer than Windows 8.1 or my Sony phone, so maybe the OS is not 'streamlined like a Porsche' after all. :)

As for the dreaded BSOD, I can honesty say that I have not seen that for about ten years, when I think I was using XP, and that was caused by a hardware fault. I use my computers fairly intensively and don't seem to suffer anything like the problems that others do.

As for operating systems, I bought NT4.5 I think but never got around to using it. I installed Windows 2000 which I found very stable and only upgraded to XP because a new version of Photoshop refused to install on it. I understand that Adobe has pulled this stunt again, and that the latest version will only run on Windows 10.

pdk42
4th August 2018, 10:11 PM
It is interesting to note, no matter how much some people say they hate Win10 or how vocal they seem to be in pointing out it's shortfalls and praising Apple........... they are still Windows 10 users.

John

Hobson's choice.

Phill D
5th August 2018, 06:31 AM
Thanks for all the insight guys. Sounds like I'll be sticking with this old pc and Win7 for a little while longer at least.

Phill D
5th August 2018, 09:00 AM
So in theory it should last a couple of years then.
Wonder when/if Win 10 will be updated?

Otto
5th August 2018, 09:18 AM
Well, the bi-annual "Feature Updates" have been fairly major so far. They have however generally improved the product, apart from unilaterally removing "unsigned" hardware drivers such as my scanners which is unforgiveable in my opinion. If a major update occurs I get a blank space on the desktop where Epson Scan used to be for example and have to reinstall it. Considering how much aggravation new versions of Windows have caused in the past I hope that 10 will be the last version. The PC I'm writing this on is probably eight years old at least (I bought it about the time Vista was being introduced and luckily specified XP instead!) but it runs 10 Professional generally smoothly and reliably - I haven't seen a BSoD for years.

IPWheatley
5th August 2018, 09:34 AM
For all its faults its still the choice of the majority of people. I hated Win10 when I first started using it but have come to terms with it. Regarding updates, it is a problem. Take the latest. Went to load my latest batch of snaps on Thursday, clicked on the folder in Pictures to preview them and it opened in Photoshop by default. Microsoft have disabled the Picture folder option and replaced it with something they call Paint3D. Total crap, useless piece of garbage. Solution? I downloaded FastStone Picture Viewer for free and in the settings/default option made it my default picture viewer and I think its better than the old My Pictures option. Has this happened to anyone else here? If not be aware, it will do sooner rather than later. Yet another example of Microsoft forcing another piece of crap upon us. What next? The disabling of the option to download non Microsoft approved apps, they wouldn't dare. Would they? Regards, IW.

Otto
5th August 2018, 10:39 AM
Not sure what you mean by "Picture folder option" IW. I have all my picture folders visible under "Pictures" in File Explorer and can easily create new folders.

I don't use the "Photos" app because it's slow and cumbersome and I hate the way it "organises" my pictures the way it wants to, not the way I want to. Instead I've kept the old Windows Photo Viewer as my default for opening picture files.


Machines with Win10 pre-installed may not have Photo Viewer available but it can be downloaded from a number of sources. You might need to set the default in the "Properties" for each type of image file you want to use with it because it may well not appear in the Settings>Apps>Default apps.


The same goes for video files for which I use the old Windows Media Player because the "Movies & TV" app is so ghastly!

pandora
5th August 2018, 10:49 AM
@IPWheatley - Regardless of any excuses we may make for WIN10 it is undeniable that it is a failed product. I'm not sure how we might fare if we launched a class action against Microsoft demanding money back and stress compensation! I too found that it won't let me run my Picture Viewer, ACDsee32, imho the best there's ever been. But I have a maxim that says, 'Good products don't survive; only the crap floats on the top'.

IPWheatley
5th August 2018, 10:58 AM
Hi Otto, The one I am referring to is found in This PC called simply Pictures. This is the one Microsoft has replaced with Paint3D at least on my laptop and Im sure yours will follow suit very shortly. BTW Mark {Pandora} has replied whilst I am to you replying to you, encountering the same problem. It seems Microsoft are rolling this crap out in the latest batch of updates. you have been warned, regards, Ian W.

pandora
5th August 2018, 11:03 AM
Not sure what you mean by "Picture folder option" IW. I have all my picture folders visible under "Pictures" in File Explorer and can easily create new folders.

I don't use the "Photos" app because it's slow and cumbersome and I hate the way it "organises" my pictures the way it wants to, not the way I want to. Instead I've kept the old Windows Photo Viewer as my default for opening picture files.

I don't keep any images on my hard drive.
They are all backed up in two WD 2TB external "Passport" drives.
They are filed in folders by the location at which the images were shot regardless of when. Hence, when searching for a particular image I always remember where it was shot. The exception to this rule is for Birds that are filed in their respective species folder.

Otto
5th August 2018, 12:38 PM
Hi Otto, The one I am referring to is found in This PC called simply Pictures. This is the one Microsoft has replaced with Paint3D at least on my laptop and Im sure yours will follow suit very shortly.


Which version of Win10 are you running Ian? Mine is 10 Pro version 1803 which I'm pretty sure is the latest. Windows Update says my PC is up to date. "This PC > Pictures" simply shows me all my image folders and files as I'd expect, and if I double click on an image file it displays it using Windows Photo Viewer. Prior to me changing the default app it launched "Photos" which is ugly and s-l-o-w!


You can find which Windows version you're running under "Settings > System > About". Windows Paint has been replaced by Paint3D but I've never used it, and it's never popped up unexpectedly. If you right-click on an image file and look in "Properties", what is listed in "Opens with"? If it's Paint3D that's probably your problem. Click the "Change" button and choose your favourite viewer. That should work for Mark too.

Phill D
5th August 2018, 12:44 PM
These sort of un announced changes would definitely annoy me too. Looks like another plus for Apple.

Otto
5th August 2018, 01:31 PM
At least Apple did announce that 32-bit apps would no longer run under the latest version of iOS, but that doesn't allay the fact that they don't, and won't unless their developers update them. I have several that have not been updated and it looks unlikely that they ever will be. This is just as annoying, if not more so! At least (most) 32-bit software still runs under 64-bit Windows.



Meanwhile Linux (and other free software) continues to be updated and its user base expanded. It's a lot less user-friendly than either Windows or MacOS but it is at least a viable alternative.

Clockwork Donkey
5th August 2018, 02:24 PM
Take a look at the link below and then decide whether W10 updates are the result of user error.


https://www.askwoody.com/


Take the time to read back a good few posts. IME W10 updates are an unmitigated disaster.

KeithL
5th August 2018, 02:26 PM
At least Apple did announce that 32-bit apps would no longer run under the latest version of iOS, but that doesn't allay the fact that they don't, and won't unless their developers update them. I have several that have not been updated and it looks unlikely that they ever will be. This is just as annoying, if not more so! At least (most) 32-bit software still runs under 64-bit Windows.



Meanwhile Linux (and other free software) continues to be updated and its user base expanded. It's a lot less user-friendly than either Windows or MacOS but it is at least a viable alternative.

There is one thing that you didn't say Richard: if you have a Mac running say El Capitan (10.11) you aren't forced to upgrade to Sierra or High Sierra. I'm still running Yosemite. I was offered High Sierra (and the other two) but haven't bothered; why should I, when Yosemite is fine? However, when support for Yosemite ceases (a while yet) I might think again; but at that point, I could think about a new computer anyway, so it wouldn't matter. Software only lasts so long.

Otto
5th August 2018, 02:41 PM
I know very little about MacOS Keith having never used a Mac. That is a fair point, although MS didn't force people to upgrade from Windows 7. I don't know whether 10 was forced on users of 8 or 8.1 as I never used either. I was on the point of going back to 7 when I first installed 10 as it was a mess, but for the most part I'm happy with it now. Given Windows' history and the vast variety of hardware running it I guess we can be grateful that it still supports a lot of old hardware. I hope that if Win10 is the last ever version that they never change the requirements for hardware drivers - having to change drivers was the main aggro when the version was changed - I needed to buy a new graphics card as AMD didn't write a Win10 driver for the old one.

Crazy Dave
6th August 2018, 12:15 PM
OK as someone who needs to get a new PC fairly soon and who is currently on Win 7 dare I ask what is wrong with Win10?
I'm likely to stay with Microsoft but there is a large faction in my local camera club who say I really should switch to apple? just not sure I want to add all that extra hassle to the learning curve.

Not sure why your camera club members are steering you that way but here is my two penny worth. Windows and Apple operating systems are two ways of achieving the same objective, I guess that Photoshop runs pretty much the same on both. I changed from my 7 year old Windows laptop + external calibrated monitor 18 months ago to an iMac 27" display. Like you, I was very apprehensive before about making the change having used Windows from version 3.0

Aided and abetted by my then 9 year-old grandson, I took the plunge and have not regretted the move - that by the way does not make me an Apple acolyte.
if you make the change, just make sure that the spec is the best for you can afford. I don't care about tinkering with machines, just like my car I just want it to work without getting under the bonnet..

The Mac OS is quite intuitive and I'm still learning but definitely not stressed. Factor in buying new versions of existing software, I bought a genealogical programme, Office for Apple and Affinity Photo (about £45) for post production. I'm very happy with the latter it is a powerful package and do not miss Photoshop at all. The Apple community is good for resolving issues.

The transfer of data is covered by an Apple utility. I bought a partitionable 2GB external drive (needed in any event). I copied the Windows laptop data to the Windows partition on the HD, then copied from the Windows partition to the Apple partition. From there, I copied the data to the iMac. I am deeply impractical but if I can do it............

I would say that using a 27" Retina screen has greatly improved my ability to get the final image the way I want it.

Finally, it's is probably best to ignore the blather and bias that surrounds this subject. Apple products are expensive but the cost of ownership is spread over a long period and possibly you can sell it when you want/need a change.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

David

shenstone
6th August 2018, 02:43 PM
Well I'm a Win10 fan. it upgraded smoothly and has done so with every update and it just works... for me.

We have some really old apps (20 year old ,16 bit, written for win95 ) still running at work - no win 10 issue here just corporate inertia to replace a system that works and is cheap to run (no support = no support costs [don't get me started!])

Re the debate MS vs Apple - as already said they both do a job and once you are familiar with each they should do as required

Regards
Andy

pandora
6th August 2018, 03:07 PM
Finally it seems that Microsoft has been listening.

Can scarcely believe that suddenly my main gripe has disappeared; two webpages can now be opened side by side on the home screen, unless the change is due to having installed Firefox as my default browser (replacing IE). Glory be!

Otto
6th August 2018, 03:21 PM
Probably down to Firefox which has been my browser of choice for many years. Anyway, problem solved, that's the main thing!

KeithL
6th August 2018, 03:41 PM
I know very little about MacOS Keith having never used a Mac. That is a fair point, although MS didn't force people to upgrade from Windows 7. I don't know whether 10 was forced on users of 8 or 8.1 as I never used either. I was on the point of going back to 7 when I first installed 10 as it was a mess, but for the most part I'm happy with it now. Given Windows' history and the vast variety of hardware running it I guess we can be grateful that it still supports a lot of old hardware. I hope that if Win10 is the last ever version that they never change the requirements for hardware drivers - having to change drivers was the main aggro when the version was changed - I needed to buy a new graphics card as AMD didn't write a Win10 driver for the old one.

The big, fundamental difference between Windows and Mac is that Windows is an open system; that could be why some machines work well with 10, and others are a nightmare. Macs aren't an open system, they are factory built, everything is basically down to Apple. That makes changes and updates smoother and more reliable, since they know how everything will react. In about 4 years I've had one or two very small issues, but nothing of account; with Win 7, towards the end, it was so bad that I got close to throwing the b--- thing through the window!

Otto
6th August 2018, 04:30 PM
I know what you mean, I had a lot of issues with my little Lenovo Q180 box that's about the size of a Mac Mini, with everything integrated on the motherboard. When Win10 came along the graphics wouldn't work properly and the built-in Photos and Videos apps just crashed into a BSoD. No updated driver available, and I couldn't change the graphics card because it's part of the CPU chip! The hard drive was at 100% for up an hour each time it booted up making the thing hopelessly slow. I was on the point of reverting to the Win7 it came with, and even considered Linux, but now having binned the offending apps and following a year or two of 10 updates it runs relatively smoothly again.


Years ago when Apple launched the original little white Mac, our computer dealer at work enthusiastically left us one to play with to see if we liked it. It sat on the desk with a little green cursor blinking, and we were unable to get it to do anything whatsoever. We stuck with Windows which was then at v2.0 but at least we could use it :). I can see the advantages of Apple's closed system in some ways but I think the lack of flexibility and expandability is limiting in an engineering environment.

shenstone
6th August 2018, 05:54 PM
Well, you have been previously using a 12 year old version of IE7 . Almost as bad as my wife still using MS Word 97 :D:D:D

John


LOL .. I was thinking much the same. I couldn't remember how long ago it was that was implemented

Regards
Andy

MJ224
6th August 2018, 06:13 PM
Have not read all comments here, but am with Shenstone. Windows 10 has worked well for me. Also liked 8.1 and 7...ÖÖ.Must be easy to please.*chr

Have to say I really liked DOS 6, but can see the advantages of the present system.:)

Never tried Apple Mac, but despite liking their phones, I would be very hesitant to dip my toe in that pond...ÖÖÖ.:confused:

Windows is so prolific, its strength and perhaps weakness...Ö...*chr

pandora
10th August 2018, 06:28 PM
Well, you have been previously using a 12 year old version of IE7 . Almost as bad as my wife still using MS Word 97 :D:D:D John
If I could swap Win10 for that 12yr old IE7 and MS Word 97 I would do so in a heartbeat. Of course the new versions can perform the same functions with extra bells and whistles in a more convoluted way. Our devices were surely invented to make life easier, but I'd argue that in most cases they don't.

KeithL
11th August 2018, 04:20 PM
If I could swap Win10 for that 12yr old IE7 and MS Word 97 I would do so in a heartbeat. Of course the new versions can perform the same functions with extra bells and whistles in a more convoluted way. Our devices were surely invented to make life easier, but I'd argue that in most cases they don't.

When I was at work we used Win 97 for a long time after its sell-by date. I have never come across any version of Word 97 that could create so many "undocumented features"! One ten page document that I produced suddenly expanded to over 5000 pages. Yes - you read that right - 5000! And I couldn't get rid of all the unwanted pages!

Then there was another document that suddenly decided that it wouldn't let me into one page that i had written. I could place the cursor on the last letter of the page before, press the right arrow, and...it jumped to the first letter of the next but one page! I had to cut and paste all the pages before the inaccessible one, and put them into a new blank document, then do the same with all the pages after the inaccessible one. Then it decided it would;t let me into a different page! I ended up having to rewrite the whole document from scratch.

Then there was an AutoCAD drawing that I needed to modify. I could change a dimension, and all was well. Change another dimension, and the whole drawing reconfigured itself! Holes moved, text moved or disappeared. I got so furious with it, I left work early, before I threw my computer out of the office window (which would have got me fired, no doubt!) My boss got all of us who knew AutoCAD together, and we tried to sort it collectively. After about two hours we gave up, and I had to redraw the whole damned lot.

Oh what singularly happy days....... :rolleyes:

pandora
14th August 2018, 03:16 AM
I know nix of AutoCAD so can't comment, but had until recently been happily using Word 97 for the last 10yrs without one single glitch.

Naughty Nigel
14th August 2018, 07:56 AM
I know nix of AutoCAD so can't comment, but had until recently been happily using Word 97 for the last 10yrs without one single glitch.

Office 2000 was rock solid on Windows 2000 and later on Xp.

Interestingly, Windows 2000 was deeply unpopular when it launched, but with time became one of MS's best operating systems. Based on Windows NT, 2000 wasn't Plug and Play, which may explain why (like the Mac OS) it was very stable. Xp added Plug and Play functionality, and is still very much with us despite Microsoft's best efforts to banish it to the bin.

Naughty Nigel
14th August 2018, 08:06 AM
The big, fundamental difference between Windows and Mac is that Windows is an open system; that could be why some machines work well with 10, and others are a nightmare. Macs aren't an open system, they are factory built, everything is basically down to Apple. That makes changes and updates smoother and more reliable, since they know how everything will react. In about 4 years I've had one or two very small issues, but nothing of account; with Win 7, towards the end, it was so bad that I got close to throwing the b--- thing through the window!

This is correct. The number of possible hardware permutations for a Mac OS is probably no more than a dozen or two, whereas Windows has to cope with literally thousands.

As it happens I have not seen a Windows blue screen for about fifteen years (other than caused by hardware failures), but then I use HP and Toshiba business machines which come with a full suite of Windows Certified drivers. I suspect the machines that suffer regular BSOD issues either have a hardware problem or are not Windows certified.

Otto
14th August 2018, 08:38 AM
If you're a happy user of Skype be warned ...

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/skype/forum/skype_newsms/skype-7-skype-classic-to-be-discontinued-soon/28c3578a-128c-40eb-a99b-f3985c925176

The latest version 8 has users up in arms owing to its complete redesign and dumbing-down. I tried v8 and went back to v7 immediately as the new user i/f is awful. I can no longer easily see which of my contacts is online, and they've removed the "away" status. Why does MS think desktop users want something that pretends to be a phone? Many features have been removed in v8 too. If you use and like v7 keep it as long as it works but be warned that the latest v7.41 has removed the option to switch off auto-updates so you might get v8 whether you want it or not :mad:.

pdk42
24th August 2018, 11:33 PM
I've been a Windows user for pushing 30 years. I've progressed from Windows 3.0 back in the early 90s through 95, NT, 2000, XP, Win 7 and now Win 10. IMHO Win 10 is amongst the worst. It's ugly, ugly, ugly, its attempt to blend tablet and desktop is a mess, but above all - it's buggy. The auto update strategy that Microsoft now follow causes serious issues on some proportion of the user community each time a release goes out. Microsoft's testing strategy has more holes than your average cheese grater.

However, I've been living with Win 10 for probably a year and a half now and I've coped. It's been reasonably stable on the Dell laptop that my company provides and I found work arounds for the worst of the tablet/desktop mashup (Classic Shell in particular is great - I'd recommend it). However, a few months ago it was up for renewal and we've started using Microsoft Surface Book and Surface Pro devices for some reason. So, I got a nice Surface Book 2.

So, I'm now running a Microsoft OS on a Microsoft laptop - it should be perfect shouldn't it? In reality it's the most unreliable laptop I've ever had:

- From the beginning sometimes the machine wouldn't recover from sleep. Black screen, no response from the power button. The only option was to hold the power button for a while and the machine would cold boot - bye, bye any work that was open. A search of the internet reveals endless threads from users with this problem and endless "solutions", none of which work. It's even got a name - "The Sleep of Death".

- The machine got a Windows update a few weeks ago and since then the average uptime has plummeted from a barely acceptable 7-8 days to less than a day. About 50% of the time that I close the lid (prompting the machine to enter sleep mode), I find that when I re-open the lid the OS has clean booted at some point in between times - bye, bye any work that was open. Some digging into event logs and looking at the powercfg diagnostic output I can see that usually within 10-15 mins of sleeping (so fully charged battery) the machine has spontaneously rebooted. No OS crash dump - as if the power has been cycled. Again, there are countless threads on the web by people with similar problems.

- On top of that, on about 3 or 4 occasions since the update, I've taken the machine out of my bag to find the battery flat despite it being 100% charged when I put it away. On one occasion I discovered why - as I took it out it was turned on and hot enough to fry an egg. Clearly it is starting up when sleeping and has stayed like that.

Some of my colleagues have the smaller Surface Pro and those machines have a habit of spontaneously rebooting while being used.

All of the above issues are well documented by users on the web - and yet there are no fixes.

It appears that many of the issues are due to Microsoft adopting a smartphone-style sleep mode called "Modern Sleep" - but it's clearly deeply flawed.

So, I asked my wife how many times she has had a forced reboot on her Macbook Pro - she said once since she bought it two years ago. I asked if she ever needs to do a cold boot - she said all she ever does is close the lid and it always wakes up within seconds. I then sat down, created a user for myself on her machine and had a play - and WOW - IT"S NOT UGLY, and it doesn't crash all the time.

So, I picked up a nice, mint 2015 Macbook Pro on eBay this week for less than half the price of the Microsoft Scarface Pro and it's beautiful. It's even got Unix under the covers. I've twisted the arm of our IT people to allow me to use it for company work.

So, a Mac convert - I can't see me ever going back to Windows.

:)

MJ224
25th August 2018, 07:07 AM
Blo**y computers...…………

My experience is very different from yours Paul. I have a Surface 3, with 128GB memory, and a 64GB card in the slot. I have had a few problems with it, but in general it works so well. Closing the lid without switching it off is a danger I now avoid. As you say it can go into a huge sulk if you don't switch it OFF.

Otherwise, its quick to boot up, far quicker than my Dell laptop. The screen is really clear, the Pen stylus works quite well, though some programmes don't recognise it. I like to use a mouse with it, and that works well. It has only 1 USB port, which the mouse uses, so to download photos I need to remove the mouse (Wireless) connector and use the pen.

Software wise, it runs all I can throw at it. I use Lightroom 6 on it, which works well, Microsoft Office including Edge and Outlook mail.

Have to say it is my sitting room laptop, so does not take the brunt of my computing time. But it did for a while whilst my old laptop was in terminal decline. I do recommend it, and will seriously consider a more advanced Surface computer when the Dell falls off the perch.

Windows 10 works well on it, flexible and consistent. I respect your views on Microsoft and the Surface, but our experiences are so far apart. Porquoi??

TimP
25th August 2018, 07:53 AM
I converted to Mac around 10 years ago and have never looked back. In my day job I used to support Windows and to be honest Windows 7 was about the best. W10 isn’t bad but it never seems to remain static enough to become stable, thy are forever faffing with it. I have a couple of Windows machines at home that only really ever get turned on to keep the updates coming, plus I run a W10 virtual machine that I access via RDP. That only runs for 1 or 2 programs that I can’t be bothered to find MacOS equivalents for, plus it’s interesting to see the various MS updates before applying then to my other toys. I’ve found virtually no non-Apple software I need to install although since they killed Aperture I’m at a bit of a loss what to do about a replacement, I still haven’t bought Affinity (?) despite the cheap offer that was discussed here a few months ago.
I can’t see me ever returning to MS for my main machine, especially if it goes the way it’s looking like it will and become subscription based. It’s certainly heading that way in the enterprise environment. Once hooked, all they will ever do is increase the price!

pdk42
25th August 2018, 08:55 AM
Closing the lid without switching it off is a danger I now avoid. As you say it can go into a huge sulk if you don't switch it OFF.


I find it incredible (and inexcusable) that a company the size of Microsoft, in control of the entirety of the hardware and software can't get something basic like suspend and resume working reliably. Image if your smartphone did the same - cold boot every time you wanted to make a call or use the map search.

I'm amazed that the reviews still give glowing reports to these Microsoft machines and yet the forums are peppered with reports of power management problems.

DerekW
25th August 2018, 09:19 AM
Welcome Paul to the "dark side"

I moved from OS/2 to the Mac in 2004 after a lifetime using computers from MFT, MVT, MVS, VM, DOS, Dos/Wndows upto 3.1, OS/2.

The develpment of the DOS route of operating systems was a strategic error by IBM when they commisioned Bill Gates to produce an OS for the 8088 range of CPUs.
It was a quick and dirty method of getting into the desktop market.

If the PC had been a Unix machine the problems of 'doze would not be costing commerce and end users so much frustration.
Fortunately with the advent of the true personnel computer ie the phones, tablets, device controllers, hifi devices etc the chosen OS was/is a variant of Unix (of which there are many hundreds if not thousands of variants) which appears to be reliable

shenstone
25th August 2018, 11:10 AM
I find it incredible (and inexcusable) that a company the size of Microsoft, in control of the entirety of the hardware and software can't get something basic like suspend and resume working reliably. .

Sorry that's not correct, and maybe it would help to explain.

Microsoft are not in control of the hardware and firmware that sits on it. that is the big difference between Apple and what I will call the PC system

Basically windows sits on top of the hardware, firmware and bios all of which comes from those vendors and Microsoft have no control (they advise and set minimum standards of course)

If you have a that occurs before windows has loaded that is entirely due to one of those aspects and one of those vendors An Example of that would be that we recently had a number of issues with some Dell PC's at work. The issues were entirely due to the Dell Firmware.

They could have gone the same route as Apple, but this approach allows all the hardware suppliers to innovate and creates competition between them which IMO adds an awful lot to the PC world and does actually drive a lot of the hardware improvements that then end up in Apple products (typically 12-18 months later than the leading [expensive] end of the PC market

I'm not claiming that the PC architecture is perfect, but in my opinion the flexibility it gives me in upgrading peripherals and internals when I want to is something I would not want to give up

Since I got this PC it's had another it's RAM memory doubled, another 256 Gb SSD, another 2.5TB of disk, a graphics card upgrade and extra monitor. it's also gone from Win8.1 to Win10 and MS office 2010 MS office 2016
- all with no problems. And it still boots in about 4 seconds

Regards
Andy

Ian
25th August 2018, 11:43 AM
I like Windows 10... :D Seriously.

Quite amazed at the AMD Ryzen 7 2700X desktop I have just built for my daughter, running Windows 10 Pro (£7 on Amazon for the OS). Replacing the old motherboard, memory (16GB and CPU and OS (the old Windows 10 was an OEM version so would not activate with the new hardware) was just a few quid over £500 including shipping of the parts. It's a monster of a power house - 16 threads and a Passmark rating of over 16000, comfortably out-pacing a Xeon E5 8-core £4K Mac Pro box.

Ian

Internaut
25th August 2018, 12:18 PM
Ever the contrarian (and also a dual Mac and Windows user), I quite like Windows 10 and find myself a lot more productive with it than I do with Windows 7 on the corporate Dell From Hell.

TimP
25th August 2018, 12:38 PM
Sorry that's not correct, and maybe it would help to explain.

Microsoft are not in control of the hardware and firmware that sits on it. that is the big difference between Apple and what I will call the PC system

Basically windows sits on top of the hardware, firmware and bios all of which comes from those vendors and Microsoft have no control (they advise and set minimum standards of course)

.........

Wasnít Paulís point that he was having the issues when running Microsoft Windows on a Microsoft badged laptop, whilst, like Apple the devices arenít made in a Microsoft or Apple factory, in this example Microsoft SHOULD be in control of the hardware that has their name on it. Hence the complaint of issues with sleep mode failing.
Must be honest, my 2010 MacBookPro rarely got turned off over the years, simply close the lid, do other things and then open the lid again and I canít recall a single time it failed to wake properly from sleep. My newer MacBook Air is just the same.

shenstone
25th August 2018, 01:19 PM
Apologies.. I should read more carefully

yes in this case they should be more in control

Regards
Andy

Ian
25th August 2018, 01:26 PM
Wasnít Paulís point that he was having the issues when running Microsoft Windows on a Microsoft badged laptop, whilst, like Apple the devices arenít made in a Microsoft or Apple factory, in this example Microsoft SHOULD be in control of the hardware that has their name on it. Hence the complaint of issues with sleep mode failing.
Must be honest, my 2010 MacBookPro rarely got turned off over the years, simply close the lid, do other things and then open the lid again and I canít recall a single time it failed to wake properly from sleep. My newer MacBook Air is just the same.

Believe it or not there are six Windows 10 laptops in the household (I'm moving from an ageing Dell (Originally Windows 7) to a smaller, lighter and much more powerful Acer, plus we have a convertible tablet/ultrabook with removable keyboard) - all of them work flawlessly from sleep unless left too long allowing the battery to run down of course.

Ian

Internaut
25th August 2018, 05:20 PM
Believe it or not there are six Windows 10 laptops in the household (I'm moving from an ageing Dell (Originally Windows 7) to a smaller, lighter and much more powerful Acer, plus we have a convertible tablet/ultrabook with removable keyboard) - all of them work flawlessly from sleep unless left too long allowing the battery to run down of course.

Ian

If you're moving between devices, I find the new timeline feature (delivered in April's update) very useful. I stop working on the big laptop, in the evening, and it's just there for me, on the Tram (using my old Surface 3) the following morning. I've had a somewhat mad couple of working weeks, and that sort of thing helps a lot.

Naughty Nigel
25th August 2018, 09:37 PM
My Toshiba laptop runs W81. Pro and in nearly three years has been faultless. We also run several HP 8300 Elite machines (i5 and i7) on W7 and W8.1 and they also run perfectly. However, they are all 'corporate' type machines with Windows certified drivers, so it does seem that with correct driver support Windows can be perfectly stable.

It also occurs to me that my Android phone is remarkably stable. Google recommends that Android devices are rebooted every ten days to maintain stability, but I usually forget so it often stays up for months at a time until I forget to charge it. I am not entirely happy about using a Google OS, but I wonder how stable Chromebooks are?

pdk42
25th August 2018, 09:43 PM
Apologies.. I should read more carefully

yes in this case they should be more in control

Regards
Andy

I think basically that Microsoft have screwed up the power management in their own laptops. As I said in my rant/post, I had a Dell (Latitude) before the Surface Book and that was actually pretty stable.

Wally
26th August 2018, 10:08 AM
Back-tracking to Otto's SKYPE issue. It seems there has beenso much negative feed-back the MS have issued another update?

Not sure what version Otto reverted back to as MS has issued a warning that 'older' versions will cease to work. Whils searching for a remedy - I too had serious issues -I found this ealier, which 'apparently' gives users the 'classic version' which will work until...???

If needs must, the links points to v 8.28.0.41 You can check it out here --> https://www.skype.com/en/get-skype/

MJ224
26th August 2018, 10:46 AM
Gave up on Skype yonks ago. It used to work well, but then a series of fiddling changes ruined it for me.

Use WhatsApp now. Also Facetime on the iPhone works well if chatting to another iPhone...:)

Ian
26th August 2018, 11:41 AM
Gave up on Skype yonks ago. It used to work well, but then a series of fiddling changes ruined it for me.

Use WhatsApp now. Also Facetime on the iPhone works well if chatting to another iPhone...:)

WhatsApp for me, too. Skype is still used occasionally. Julia uses it to chat to her English/French language conversational buddy in Paris every week. I also occasionally use Facebook Messenger's video-call function.

Ian

Ian
26th August 2018, 11:43 AM
I think basically that Microsoft have screwed up the power management in their own laptops. As I said in my rant/post, I had a Dell (Latitude) before the Surface Book and that was actually pretty stable.

Microsoft don't make their own hardware, it's all out-sourced. Nevertheless, they ought to have the best QA :D

Ian

Naughty Nigel
26th August 2018, 12:56 PM
Back-tracking to Otto's SKYPE issue. It seems there has beenso much negative feed-back the MS have issued another update?

Not sure what version Otto reverted back to as MS has issued a warning that 'older' versions will cease to work. Whils searching for a remedy - I too had serious issues -I found this ealier, which 'apparently' gives users the 'classic version' which will work until...???

If needs must, the links points to v 8.28.0.41 You can check it out here --> https://www.skype.com/en/get-skype/

We tend to use the Facebook Video Chat thingummy which works well enough and is universal across all types of devices.

FaceTime works very well between Apple devices but isn't available for any other platform and so is far too restrictive in my view. (Likewise Apple doesn't allow iTunes to work on Android, even though you pay Apple for music downloads.) This is my main objection to using Apple hardware, good as their hardware is in its own right.

The late Steve Jobs was known to be a total control freak who simply didn't accept that not everybody wants to use Apple. His legacy clearly lives on.

I read an interesting article recently that Jobs had vowed to destroy DropBox because he wanted it as an Apple only cloud storage system, but the then owners of DropBox had their sights set on a wider stage and refused his offer.

Internaut
26th August 2018, 01:00 PM
And that is why I use Apple products but avoid their cloud. Both Microsoft and Google are pretty universal (as are Adobe, to a lesser degree), and I use both.

pdk42
26th August 2018, 05:45 PM
Microsoft don't make their own hardware, it's all out-sourced. Nevertheless, they ought to have the best QA :D

Ian

I'm sure that's true of Apple as well. I'd hope that they were in charge of the design though.

Naughty Nigel
26th August 2018, 06:53 PM
I'm sure that's true of Apple as well. I'd hope that they were in charge of the design though.

Much of the problem with IT seems to the rush to market. The equipment may be designed in the USA, but the production of virtually all IT equipment and components is outsourced to contract suppliers in the Far East who manufacture huge batches, put them in shipping containers and then move on. I am sure cameras are similar today.

I cannot believe that many new IT products are exhaustively tested prior to launch, and by the time faults have been identified the product is obsolete, or production has already ceased, so there is little interest in rectifying anything.

Modern manufacturing philosophies and the constant evolution of software also means that lessons are rarely passed on from one product line to the next.

DerekW
27th August 2018, 11:04 AM
When I was involved (loosely) in the PC game, actually I was in the apps business and then the OS, my employer who was designing, building and selling the hardware as well as designing and writing the OS would run compatability tests of the OS and the hardware. passiing the coompatiblity test for our own hardware was mandatory before release. As a marketing drive to increase the sellabiility of the OS across other makes of hardware, the company would receive samples of compettitors hardware to see if the OS would run on them. If the OS would run they would get a statement of compatibility.

For machines that failed a DOS/Windows test would be carried out. It was surprising how many of these machines would fail a DOS compatible test.

The PC market was observed to be a multi tier business,

Tier 1 was the machines built by the big names, eg IBM, HP, Compaq etc that sold into the corporate market. Often these machines had custom designed cases and sometimes custom designed and shaped main boards.

Tier 2 were machines that used reputable components in standard cases using standard Main boards using components of a tested quality.

Tier 3 - were the assemblers would be assemblying bin end components into standard cases often using main boards of lesser standard. By bin end I mean buying what was available and cheap (and perhaps out of production)

I assembled a couple of machines for myself using reputable main boards and tested components taking advice from my colleagues. The first assembly worked without issue with OS/2.
After a few years I wanted a more powerful machine, so using the same make of main board I built a "faster " machine. It did not work, I swapped the main board for a different one from the same manufacturer and the machine did work.

The supplier claimed that the first board was a good one as it passed their test using the Windows du Jour which was not so performance critical. So I had to pay the restocking fee as the board was not faulty.

The next time I wanted to upgrade the machine for more power, better graphics etc etc I went Mac - still on Macs 14 years later.

Apple do not support the running of their software on other makees / design of machine. They control all stages of the process, the manufacturing is outsourced and the sw and the hardware are designed and tested to be compatible. Periodically older machines drop out of OS support as would be expected.

I do not mess with computers to try out new hardware or peripherals, I use them to run software for my benefit. If I wanted to try out the latest and greatest new video cards and PCI cards I would be playing with Windows or a more native form of Unix (Linux).

greace11
29th August 2018, 07:22 AM
I am also now in windows 10, I have o choice I get used of it but as I observe my laptop keep on crashing.

The Technician
29th August 2018, 07:31 AM
I have been using windows 10 since upgrading for free years ago and I have found it to be the most reliable MS OS to date, I sometimes wonder what all the fuss is about :-)

Otto
29th August 2018, 08:53 AM
Back-tracking to Otto's SKYPE issue. It seems there has beenso much negative feed-back the MS have issued another update?

Not sure what version Otto reverted back to as MS has issued a warning that 'older' versions will cease to work. Whils searching for a remedy - I too had serious issues -I found this ealier, which 'apparently' gives users the 'classic version' which will work until...???

If needs must, the links points to v 8.28.0.41 You can check it out here --> https://www.skype.com/en/get-skype/


Just seen this as I've been away. I've got v7.41 at the moment and MS has threatened to stop older versions working. There is also a "Skype for Windows 10" which I've avoided. MS does seem to be listening as a lot of the stupid wiggly lines and things have been removed from the iOS app version, which is slowly becoming useable again. To be honest, I use Facebook Messenger more often now and if Skype 7 stops working I will probably change to another platform - most of my Skype contacts already have anyway!

Naughty Nigel
3rd September 2018, 11:13 AM
For me the real annoyance of new OS versions is that perfectly good hardware stops working and either has to be replaced or involves time wasting workarounds.

I recently bought a 'new' (open box) HP office machine which came with the option to install either W8.1 or W10. I chose 8.1 x64 because I like it and know that it works for me.

Having successfully installed 8.1, and without asking, it replaced the OS with W10 with no option to revert to 8.1. Despite this I but the bullet and carried on installing my software without incident; that was until I tried to use my trusty Epson document scanner.

The scanner is only about four years old and cost me about £750, but Epson last updated the driver in 2012. This worked perfectly well under Xp, W7 and 8.1, but does not work with W10. Epson does not provide any driver support for this device on W10 and has no plans to. The W10 Legacy Support doesn't help.

Yet more expensive landfill. :mad:

I have exactly the same problem with an expensive Nikon medium format film scanner which Nikon suddenly dropped all support for within about two years of purchase. The end result is that it will not work with anything after W7 or anything after Mac OS 10 I think. :mad:

TimP
3rd September 2018, 11:16 AM
Look at a copy of Vuescan, works a treat with all kinds of scanners old and new. There’s a freebie trial but I’ve shelled out for the full version as it’s so flexible. Certainly worth looking at if you can manage to put down a certain vile rag!!

Naughty Nigel
3rd September 2018, 11:23 AM
Look at a copy of Vuescan, works a treat with all kinds of scanners old and new. Thereís a freebie trial but Iíve shelled out for the full version as itís so flexible. Certainly worth looking at if you can manage to put down a certain vile rag!!

I might give it a try but the Epson software was so easy for anyone to use, including SWMBO who tends to be an IT-phobe!

Also, this is an office document scanner rather than a photo scanner.

As for the Nikon we have dedicated an old W7 x32 machine to the task of scanning photographs. I think I might just use it with the document scanner too.

TimP
3rd September 2018, 11:27 AM
You could always try a Virtual Machine and run it on your new HP W10 box.
It’s a fantastic way of running multiple machines.

Naughty Nigel
3rd September 2018, 11:29 AM
You could always try a Virtual Machine and run it on your new HP W10 box.
It’s a fantastic way of running multiple machines.

If I installed a W 8.1 virtual machine the b*****d thing would probably update itself to W10. :mad:

TimP
3rd September 2018, 11:43 AM
It possibly would (you need to stop MS forcing updates) but at least you could easily and quickly go back to your W8.1 install.

Otto
3rd September 2018, 12:53 PM
My trusty Epson 4990 scanner still works on Win10 although major Win10 updates like to delete the driver and the Epson Scan software because the driver is "unsigned". So I have to burrow into the OS and allow unsigned drivers to be installed.

My Nikon Coolscan LS-40 required a bit more effort to get going in Win10 but it does work reliably. Google will find the on-line articles that explain how to do it.

Bikie John
3rd September 2018, 01:20 PM
Having successfully installed 8.1, and without asking, it replaced the OS with W10 with no option to revert to 8.1. Despite this I but the bullet and carried on installing my software without incident; that was until I tried to use my trusty Epson document scanner.

The scanner is only about four years old and cost me about £750, but Epson last updated the driver in 2012. This worked perfectly well under Xp, W7 and 8.1, but does not work with W10. Epson does not provide any driver support for this device on W10 and has no plans to. The W10 Legacy Support doesn't help.

I feel you pain. However, forgive me if I am teaching grandma to suck eggs, but there may be a solution....

I have with a Nikon 35mm film scanner. Nikon have refused to update their drivers, and Win 10 refuses to acknowledge the old driver. Turns out that Windoze rejects it as "unsigned" - presumably because Nikon have not bothered to submit it for QA. The workaround is a bit of a pain but it works, and you only need to do it once (*). You can tell Windows to accept unsigned drivers, which is a palaver as it requires rebooting, and then re-install the old driver. After that with my Nikon it is quite happy, so it might work with your Espon. Until....

(*) A major Windows system update tends to lose it. Routine monthly maintenance doesn't affect it, but the occasional (twice yearly?) big updates lose quite a bit of stuff including this, so you need to install it again.

John

Naughty Nigel
4th September 2018, 06:40 AM
You could always try a Virtual Machine and run it on your new HP W10 box.
Itís a fantastic way of running multiple machines.

I was talking to my son about this last night. It seems that you now need a special licence to run virtual machines. But would anyone know?

On another point, you can buy or rent MS Office software for tablets as well as desktop machines. Some licences allow use on multiple machines; i.e one desktop, one tablet and one mobile phone. However, anything with a screen size greater than 10.1" is now classified as a 'desktop', so if you have an iPad Pro, for example, you would need a full desktop licence to use MS Office software on it. And of course MS 'knows' exactly which machine their software is installed on. :eek:

TimP
4th September 2018, 06:55 AM
Look at VMWare and VirtualBox. Both have free offerings that do all you’d need.

MS licensing is becoming a nightmare. In the corporate/ enterprise world it’s got crazy pricing. Small local government locally was paying around £60K / year to licence the organisation of around 500 users. That gave access to all the latest versions but was a heck of a chunk of change and at that time, discounts were about to be removed and I think the total went up to something over £120K.

Jim Ford
4th September 2018, 07:28 AM
My licence to Libre Office, or Openoffice is ....... zilch

Jim

TimP
4th September 2018, 07:54 AM
.......so if you have an iPad Pro, for example, you would need a full desktop licence to use MS Office software on it.

Why would any sane person try to use Microsoft Office on an iPad, even one with a silly big screen? Itís horrendous as are the Apple apps and they are designed for the device. Design the device with a proper built-in Ďlaptopí mode with a mouse pointer etc and it could work but I struggle to see an iPad as anything other than a content consumption device, as for that itís absolutely brilliant, youíd have to prize mine from my cold dead hands to separate me from it.

Naughty Nigel
4th September 2018, 08:16 AM
My licence to Libre Office, or Openoffice is ....... zilch

Jim

What is the downside though Jim? Is there even a downside?

Why are schools, government offices and the NHS not using it? :confused:

This is a serious question as software licenses must cost HMG £billions!

I guess it is all about compatibility and having bits of paper to say that it (the software) is what it is.

I despair sometimes. :(

On a completely different subject I popped a new Queen CD into my computer the other day just to listen to it whilst I was working. No sooner had it started spinning a message came up about installing some clever software to listen to it. Why? :mad:

Sometimes a vinyl LP is so much easier, and has no strings attached.

TimP
4th September 2018, 08:31 AM
Why are schools, government offices and the NHS not using it? :confused:

This is a serious question as software licenses must cost HMG £billions!

I guess it is all about compatibility and having bits of paper to say that it (the software) is what it is.



Nigel, there are a multitude of reasons. MS Office is the de-facto standard and as such most companies writing software for NHS, local gummint etc need to know there is something standard about things their software integrates with, if there wasnít youíd end up in a situation where LibreOffice (say) and Civica (say) would be blaming each other for issues with, for example, an on-line planning application. Meanwhile the poor old applicant is stuck in the middle. Companies spend countless hours and money testing software (I know, I know!) and as such probably only certify something to work with Office 2013 or above.
If the software platform is relatively stable then it reduces possibilities for errors.
The amount of different software packages used by these organizations is staggering. Itís not just an office worker sat there producing letters all day, yes, they could probably get away with Linux and LibreOffice, but as soon as someone asks them to update a linked spreadsheet and re-enter it into the CRM system then they are Donald Ducked. Costing billions? No doubt, hit huge sums are wasted by poor procurement where the procurement team have no idea of the multitude of subjects they are dealing with.

Your Queen example was probably cos there was a video clip on the CD that did need special software installing, been happening on and off for years.

Naughty Nigel
4th September 2018, 08:33 AM
Why would any sane person try to use Microsoft Office on an iPad, even one with a silly big screen? Itís horrendous as are the Apple apps and they are designed for the device. Design the device with a proper built-in Ďlaptopí mode with a mouse pointer etc and it could work but I struggle to see an iPad as anything other than a content consumption device, as for that itís absolutely brilliant, youíd have to prize mine from my cold dead hands to separate me from it.

I would agree with that. Why does Apple refuse to provide mouse support when the use of computer mice is so universal elsewhere?

I occasionally reply to emails on my iPad, but only if I am using it for something else at the time. Even a phone is easier to use for emailing, but as you say the iPad is brilliant for video and catch up TV.

Otto
4th September 2018, 08:37 AM
What annoys me is organisations that assume I have MS Office or equivalent installed when they send me .docx and .xlsx files instead of .pdf or .jpg. I don't, and never will, so they get a polite request for either a compatible format or a piece of paper! Windows 10 no longer comes with Word Viewer for some stupid reason. Luckily if you upgraded from a previous version it's likely you will still have Word Viewer installed.

TimP
4th September 2018, 08:53 AM
Possibly Otto, for everyone like you there are 10 others saying “why do they keep sending me these .PDF files?” !! Seriously, it’s not easy to second guess what everyone wants or can use. More people are using Apple kit now and send in documents in non-standard format, causing issues at the receiving end. The sender then thinks the people he is sending to are incompetent (they often are too!)
There is no easy solution when you are dealing with huge ranges in skill levels and available software along with the great unwashed.

TimP
4th September 2018, 09:00 AM
I would agree with that. Why does Apple refuse to provide mouse support when the use of computer mice is so universal elsewhere?

I occasionally reply to emails on my iPad, but only if I am using it for something else at the time. Even a phone is easier to use for emailing, but as you say the iPad is brilliant for video and catch up TV.

No mouse support is surely because itís designed as a hand held device, right now for instance Iím sat on a sofa, iPad on my lap and using two hands to type, where would I put the mouse? I agree though that if you dock the iPad and attach a proper keyboard then it ought to enable a mouse mode. I toyed with a Surface tablet a while ago and the first thing I did was plug in a mouse, but then it loses the hand held benefits and you might as well have a laptop!
Donít agree about a phone being easier for emails though, much prefer typing on iPad, still wouldnít be separated from my phone though!

Oddly, I hardly ever use my iPad for video and catch up TV! Why would you watch TV on a 10Ē screen when you can have it on a 40Ē+ device with proper sound???
Iím reasonably happy typing on the on screeen keyboard but find it too easy to make mistakes so find myself having to proofread what I type.

Naughty Nigel
4th September 2018, 09:10 AM
I think what I resent is that big corporates seem to have taken over and monopolised almost everything that we do, so we have no choice but to pay the asking price just to live in the 21st century.

Software companies are not alone in charging 'what the market will stand'. I recently sent my gloss meter for its annual calibration check, which is required to satisfy ISO standards and all that. It cost me £280 (+ VAT) to 'certify' an instrument which cost around £2,800 last year - in other words 10% of its value. These charges even make Stratstones look cheap!

Unfortunately the eye of an experienced practitioner is no longer good enough. Everything has to be measured and certificates provided to show that the measuring instrument has been certified, and that the reference is traceable and all that bollox. I don't think any of this has done anything to improve professional standards; rather the opposite. Like software licencing it has simply provided a charter for ripping people off and giving them no say in the matter.



I sometimes wish I could get off of this world, but I don't suppose it will be long now. ;)

TimP
4th September 2018, 09:21 AM
I think what I resent is that big corporates seem to have taken over and monopolised almost everything that we do, so we have no choice but to pay the asking price just to live in the 21st century.

Software companies are not alone in charging 'what the market will stand'. I recently sent my gloss meter for its annual calibration check, which is required to satisfy ISO standards and all that. It cost me £280 (+ VAT) to 'certify' an instrument which cost around £2,800 last year - in other words 10% of its value. These charges even make Stratstones look cheap!

This is kinda like an annual maintenance charge where 10% is the going rate, does it need to be annually, could it be bi-annual?

Unfortunately the eye of an experienced practitioner is no longer good enough. Everything has to be measured and certificates provided to show that the measuring instrument has been certified, and that the reference is traceable and all that bollox. I don't think any of this has done anything to improve professional standards; rather the opposite. Like software licencing it has simply provided a charter for ripping people off and giving them no say in the matter.

I think too many unscrupulous people take advantage of the situation, along with the litigation society, hence the ongoing need for everyone to cover their backs with certifications etc, plus itís a nice little earner, yet another way to squeeze more hard earned from us mere mortals.
Look how many people have got off speeding convictions simply because the radar gun hadnít been calibrated that morning, you and I know itís probably bollox but in a court of law and being able to afford a decent lawyer people are able to get off on a technicality.

I sometimes wish I could get off of this world, but I don't suppose it will be long now. ;)

Might depend on how high up the age poll you are!

Naughty Nigel
4th September 2018, 10:33 AM
Might depend on how high up the age poll you are!

Quite a long way up I'm afraid. :o

TimP
4th September 2018, 10:50 AM
Oh dear! I’m in the second most popular grouping so well past summer, possibly even autumn and heading into an early winter I guess. Maybe I won’t cut back on all that wine after all, no point in bieng here if you’re not enjoying it.

DerekW
4th September 2018, 11:10 AM
More news about upcoming MS activities see

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/09/03/microsoft_round_up_sept_3/

So you will have something to write about in the early months of winter.

blu-by-u
14th September 2018, 04:07 AM
Any Windows 10 expert I need advice on how to do a clean installation. My HDD is starting to give some bad sectors ( Unfortunately was self inflicted). I have purchased a new HDD and I need to reinstall the OS. I don't want to clone it over. How should I proceed as this is a copy from the free upgrade and I cannot find the Key.

Clockwork Donkey
14th September 2018, 08:14 AM
Any Windows 10 expert I need advice on how to do a clean installation. My HDD is starting to give some bad sectors ( Unfortunately was self inflicted). I have purchased a new HDD and I need to reinstall the OS. I don't want to clone it over. How should I proceed as this is a copy from the free upgrade and I cannot find the Key.


You may not need it. If you upgraded to Windows 10 from a free upgrade there is no key. It's a tad involved so have a look at the link below.


https://www.techadvisor.co.uk/how-to/windows/find-windows-10-product-key-3632749/

Jim Ford
14th September 2018, 11:37 AM
I very rarely use my W10 machine, and then only to use PS, so when I switch the machine on I really want to use it.

The other day I switched it on and it did its update thing - y'know, "Don't switch the machine off" and "It may restart several times"! So it was an hour or so when I was able to use the PC.

There's nothing, nothing, nothing I like about the execrable Window 10!!

Jim

Otto
14th September 2018, 11:43 AM
I have learned through bitter experience that it's a good idea to switch a little-used Win10 machine on now and then when you don't want to use it, so that it can update itself and be ready for when you do! That way you don't have to stare at that fatuous "Getting Windows ready" message for ages when it's least convenient.

TimP
14th September 2018, 04:14 PM
I very rarely use my W10 machine, and then only to use PS, so when I switch the machine on I really want to use it.

The other day I switched it on and it did its update thing - y'know, "Don't switch the machine off" and "It may restart several times"! So it was an hour or so when I was able to use the PC.

There's nothing, nothing, nothing I like about the execrable Window 10!!

Jim

Presumably your main machine is a Mac?
If thatís the case, do as I do and update the Windows machine(s) at a time when it doesnít matter how long it might or might not take.
My virtual machine W10 runs 24/7 but Iíve a couple of small format ones I bought cheap to play with so I update them as and when I remember to do it. Iíve nothing really that relies on Windows any more but like to keep them up to date Ďjust in caseí
If you rely on something then perhaps set aside a time to regularly check for updates.

As I no longer have to support an organisation running Windows Iím rapidly getting to the point where I could ditch it altogether but actually I keep it going for old times sake!

TimP
14th September 2018, 04:15 PM
I have learned through bitter experience that it's a good idea to switch a little-used Win10 machine on now and then when you don't want to use it, so that it can update itself and be ready for when you do! That way you don't have to stare at that fatuous "Getting Windows ready" message for ages when it's least convenient.

See, hereís a man that knows what to do.

Jim Ford
15th September 2018, 10:53 AM
Presumably your main machine is a Mac?

<snort> Linux!

I get notified of updates (or manually check), and install updates when it suits me.

Jim

TimP
16th September 2018, 07:05 AM
<snort> Linux!

I get notified of updates (or manually check), and install updates when it suits me.

Jim

Closely related to Unix which is also closely related to MacOS

Still, Linux, always the bridesmaid never the bride!

DerekW
16th September 2018, 06:06 PM
A bit more about the Unix - Linux - MacOS et all relationships can be found with a Google search "OS based on Unix" one result being:

https://www.techworm.net/2016/11/difference-linux-unix-operating-systems.html

An interesting story of the os wars in
https://www.quora.com/If-macOS-and-Linux-are-based-on-Unix-then-what-is-Windows-based-on-and-why-was-it-implemented-like-this-by-Bill-Gates

Naughty Nigel
16th September 2018, 09:08 PM
A bit more about the Unix - Linux - MacOS et all relationships can be found with a Google search "OS based on Unix" one result being:

https://www.techworm.net/2016/11/difference-linux-unix-operating-systems.html

An interesting story of the os wars in
https://www.quora.com/If-macOS-and-Linux-are-based-on-Unix-then-what-is-Windows-based-on-and-why-was-it-implemented-like-this-by-Bill-Gates

A fascinating read. The course of computer history could have been so much different if more powerful hardware had been available in the early days of personal computing.