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sapper
1st August 2018, 11:58 AM
Just a thought,https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/entertainment-arts-45011397/renowned-film-director-wim-wenders-hits-out-at-phone-photography

Naughty Nigel
1st August 2018, 12:09 PM
I don't think the mobile phone has killed photography any more than Instamatic cameras, 110 cameras and some of the other awful contraptions that we saw from the 1970's onwards.

Camera phones have certainly made photography more accessible, and technical quality is no worse than the cameras mentioned above.

Ricoh
1st August 2018, 12:25 PM
I don't think the mobile phone has killed photography any more than Instamatic cameras, 110 cameras and some of the other awful contraptions that we saw from the 1970's onwards.

Camera phones have certainly made photography more accessible, and technical quality is no worse than the cameras mentioned above.
I hope you're not including the Polaroid in the class of "awful contraptions'. ;)
The instant contraptions draw a clear distinction between digital cameras (I include all such devices) used for sharing (and what better than a phone to do this: to click, then share?). The instant market is growing every year, apparently, and I see the appeal. My personal choice however is a Holga with a cheap primative lens, and have them printed just like the days of 'Bonus Print'.

Naughty Nigel
1st August 2018, 12:35 PM
I hope you're not including the Polaroid in the class of "awful contraptions'. ;)

Of course not. ;)

I have a Polaroid back for my RZ76, but getting hold of the film is becoming a challenge.

Ricoh
1st August 2018, 02:05 PM
Of course not. ;)

I have a Polaroid back for my RZ76, but getting hold of the film is becoming a challenge.
Don't forget the Instax, of course.

Some would say the focus isn't spot on - who gives one when the images have soul, reminiscent of one's dreams in the hands of the insta-artist. Great examples on Instagram. I especially like those where the chemistry is well past the sell-by date - by a decade or more - with incomplete development, patches of development missing and false colours. Glorious stuff.

Having the shot in hand with reflective light a quick snap with the iPhone can share it wide.

Jim Ford
1st August 2018, 02:30 PM
Also, you can't beat the authentic sound of the pioneering days of sound recording - Dame Nelly Melba squawking into a tin can. I try to capture the ambience by scuffing my LPs in a sand pit and running the tip of a knife across the vinyl!

;)

Jim

Jim Ford
1st August 2018, 02:33 PM
Some would say the focus isn't spot on - who gives one when the images have soul, reminiscent of one's dreams in the hands of the insta-artist.

You deserve a special spot in 'Pseuds Corner' in Private Eye, Steve!

;)

Jim

Ricoh
1st August 2018, 04:19 PM
It would be an honour;)

Naughty Nigel
2nd August 2018, 09:35 AM
How can mobile phones possibly have killed photography ? In reality the opposite is true with millions of people using a phone to take photos and as a result maybe developing an interest they otherwise would never have had.



Agreed; millions of people are taking billions of photographs with phones; but phone pictures are 'free', therefore very little care or thought is put into them. As a result the quality and content of phone pictures tends to be poorer than those taken with 'proper' cameras and even Instamatics.

But that doesn't mean that phone cameras have killed photography.

drmarkf
2nd August 2018, 09:48 AM
Maybe sometime in the future we'll see an OMD-xxx which also incorporates a built in phone module :eek:

John

That’ll be here very soon. For example we’ve already got satnavs with GSM modules for real time downloading of traffic information and updated maps and Tablet Readers with them for downloading books have been around for years, so the chips and connectivity are now cheap.

The only thing holding back is applications, and I’m sure we can think of a lot if we put out minds to it: a lot of the innovation will be driven by professional, commercial and governmental applications, with social media and consumers piggybacking on that. Uploading/backup of images immediately while off-WiFi is the obvious one (it would need massive data carrying capabilities, but would I’m sure be of niche interest for the data security advantages, and immediacy for say news media reporting and the security forces), but what about updating firmware off grid, real-time social media connectivity without having to fiddle around with your phone...

Ricoh
2nd August 2018, 09:49 AM
Agreed; millions of people are taking billions of photographs with phones; but phone pictures are 'free', therefore very little care or thought is put into them. As a result the quality and content of phone pictures tends to be poorer than those taken with 'proper' cameras and even Instamatics.

But that doesn't mean that phone cameras have killed photography.
Phone pictures are free? Maybe, but you normally need a service contract.

By extrapolation all digitally produced photos are 'free', or so it is said when people care to compare the cost of digital v analogue (the same protagonists neglect to mention the cost of their digital wonder-horse, and the horrendous depreciation that follows).

DerekW
2nd August 2018, 09:53 AM
There is only depreciation if you upgrade to the next model, or if it fails.
Otherwise it is saving the day to day cost of film and processiing.

Ricoh
2nd August 2018, 09:57 AM
I have already purchased my last digital camera, and that was some time ago. When they die (for some strange reason I have more than one) - curtains!

Ricoh
2nd August 2018, 11:20 AM
At my age, I sometimes wonder which is going to survive the longest, me or my cameras. As I still have an OM1n and an Olympus Trip, I think I already know the answer :D

John
Analogue cameras are like us old gits, we all need regular exercise to function properly.
For their film cameras, Leica recommend moving everything that should move on a regular basis, amoungst other things such as the frame line selector, that means triggering the shutter through its entire speed range once a month or so.

(They fail to mention what to do about things that move that shouldn't, but I find gaffer tape quite effective.)

If you haven't used your film cameras for some time, I'd recommend a CLA before you do.

Naughty Nigel
2nd August 2018, 11:35 AM
Good point Steve, looks like a trip into the loft is called for *chr

Regards,

John

Oh no, the loft is far too hot in the summer, and too cold in the winter. :eek:

alfbranch
2nd August 2018, 11:43 AM
The best camera for the shot is the one you have with you it is often said.


I use my phone even when I have a camera on the tripod.



Like this shot



https://farm1.staticflickr.com/788/39464052280_df8833ce46_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/238izQu)Buttermere panorama (https://flic.kr/p/238izQu) by Alf Branch (https://www.flickr.com/photos/32457074@N07/), on Flickr


I use it when I left the canera behind like this shot



https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1787/42696100794_5a04b1d549_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/283UFfS)Ennerdale predawn mist (https://flic.kr/p/283UFfS) by Alf Branch (https://www.flickr.com/photos/32457074@N07/), on Flickr


or for this



https://farm1.staticflickr.com/267/20269165036_798a818c58_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/wT7LAG)Ennerdale-splash-2 (https://flic.kr/p/wT7LAG) by Alf Branch (https://www.flickr.com/photos/32457074@N07/), on Flickr


or for fun



https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4582/38547139892_b979673c37_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21JhaJd)Pig in the city (https://flic.kr/p/21JhaJd) by Alf Branch (https://www.flickr.com/photos/32457074@N07/), on Flickr

Naughty Nigel
2nd August 2018, 11:47 AM
It's all been spray foam insulated on the inside of the roof. I appreciate the fact of doing this is open to debate, but that's another story. The loft is almost as comfy as the lounge, summer and winter now, not that I climb up there too often these days :D

John

Pleased to hear it. :)

Our 'conventional' loft gets extremely hot in the summer and is cold in the winter. I like the spray foam idea but our roof has a very shallow pitch and there is very limited access to apply it.

Ricoh
2nd August 2018, 11:56 AM
Wood rot!!! Wood needs to breath, like us.

Ricoh
2nd August 2018, 12:10 PM
Yeah, sorry to mention.

Another thing I've avoided is cavity wall insulation, especially on older houses such as mine.

We've strayed a bit from the original post...whatever it was. My aging memory...

Naughty Nigel
2nd August 2018, 03:06 PM
I knew somebody would make that point ! :) The wood is well over 100 yrs old, probably on its way to turning to stone so if it does rot....... it will mean a whole new roof :eek:

John

That old adage is not necessarily true.

Wet wood needs to breath but dry wood doesn't.

Dry wood will survive perfectly well in an enclosed space, or when wrapped in GRP. Balsa cored boats have been around for years and remain in perfect condition as long as the balsa core remains dry.

However, wet wood will rot if fresh water is trapped in it and no oxygen and sunlight is available. That is why timber window frames rot around joints because the water can easily get in to end grain, but paint or varnish prevents it from escaping. Adding extra paint over rotting wood only makes matters worse.

On the other hand, sea water preserves timber, but carries other risks such as Teredo Navilis and Limnoria lignorum; otherwise known as Shipworm.

Oddly enough, stainless steel and aluminium behave in a very similar way to timber, and both are prone to corrode very rapidly in an oxygen starved environment. That is why fittings often break off of aluminium masts because the fittings trap moisture and salt (sodium ions) but exclude oxygen.

Continuing the science lesson, the fungi responsible for causing wood rot Serpula lacrymans (dry rot) Fibroporia vaillantii (Mine Fungus) and Coniophora puteana (Cellar Fungus) are fairly recent organisms and are thought only to have evolved since the last ice age. They are also far more prevalent in temperate regions of the northern hemisphere than elsewhere in the world.

The coal fields under Britain were formed around 300 million years ago from wet forests, but could not form today owing to the organisms mentioned above.

OM USer
2nd August 2018, 03:08 PM
...Maybe sometime in the future we'll see an OMD-xxx which also incorporates a built in phone module
Perhaps this is the new camera in the current rumours.

Ricoh
2nd August 2018, 03:24 PM
Here's an opportunity for a monthly contest theme, or a permanent 'sticky' thread.

"GUESS the CAMERA"

Submit images - let's say all square format so that it's not an instant give away based on 3x2, 4x3 or whatever phones bash out. Voting takes place in the usual way. Three goes with the like button, or something like that. But that's just detail, and can be sorted out later. :)

Naughty Nigel
2nd August 2018, 09:44 PM
Here's an opportunity for a monthly contest theme, or a permanent 'sticky' thread.

"GUESS the CAMERA"

Submit images - let's say all square format so that it's not an instant give away based on 3x2, 4x3 or whatever phones bash out. Voting takes place in the usual way. Three goes with the like button, or something like that. But that's just detail, and can be sorted out later. :)

Yes, I like that idea.

Do we need a theme or is it a free choice?

Naughty Nigel
2nd August 2018, 09:46 PM
I should add that I like to take at least one photo with my phone camera whenever I travel anywhere, that way I can track my locations via Google.

It seems slightly scary that Google knows where I am and where I have been but it has its advantages.

blu-by-u
3rd August 2018, 02:16 AM
Phone have not killed photography. I think it have made photography accessible to more people. Even my mom, 80+ of age is photographing her toes, flowers and videoing her gardening :eek:

What the phones may have killed are the compact digitals. it's more convenient.

AND sad, phone cameras have killed panorama photography. Oly have even removed that function from the Em1ii.

DerekW
3rd August 2018, 08:26 AM
When did the EM1 digital range support panorama photography.

Here is a pano I took with the EM1 Mk ii

http://www.w9259.co.uk/St%20Pauls/

Use the icons at the bottom of the picture to zoom, pan etc.

http://www.w9259.co.uk/St%20Pauls/

Jim Ford
3rd August 2018, 09:14 AM
The coal fields under Britain were formed around 300 million years ago from wet forests, but could not form today owing to the organisms mentioned above.

Now that is very interesting information, Nigel! Where did you find it?

Jim

Ricoh
3rd August 2018, 09:15 AM
I found this short article interesting https://www.thephoblographer.com/2018/08/02/compact-camera-market-dying-contax-t2-over-1000/

Naughty Nigel
3rd August 2018, 10:19 AM
Now that is very interesting information, Nigel! Where did you find it?

Jim

Well, our son recently completed his photography degree. He and the other art students put on a 'Degree Show' of their final year projects.

One of the photography students exhibited a project on the Post-Industrial Landscape of the North East, with a series of black and white prints showing present landscapes. These were displayed alongside some old photographs showing the same landscapes around 60 years ago.

Now, I have to admit that I was first drawn to this display by photographs of steam locomotives working coal trains :o , but the student had provided some fascinating historical facts, with references, including the facts about fungi.

I must admit I had never thought about this before but it makes perfect sense. How could coal have formed if the timber was decayed by fungi in a few years?

We (or I) assume that these organisms have 'always been there', but it seems that fungi are comparative newcomers, and are probably faster evolving and adapting than many older species.

Perhaps also the conditions pre-ice-age were not suitable for fungi as we know them. It is interesting that to this day the fungi responsible for wood decay are mainly confined to temperate regions of the northern hemisphere, so have they not found their way to the southern hemisphere yet, can they not get past the equatorial band, or are conditions south of the equator simply not favourable to them?

There would have been no shortage of timber built ships travelling to the southern hemisphere in the 19th century so something must have stopped the spread of fungi.

I wonder if this is also relevant to lens fungus?

Ricoh
3rd August 2018, 10:44 AM
^ Out of interest, did the students get to choose between electro-chemistry and solid state physics for their final year project? Where does your son sit in the devide?

Naughty Nigel
3rd August 2018, 10:56 AM
^ Out of interest, did the students get to choose between electro-chemistry and solid state physics for their final year project? Where does your son sit in the devide?

Electro chemistry. :)

KeithL
3rd August 2018, 11:07 AM
I'm tempted to think that the ice ages in the northern hemisphere killed off fungi, allowing the forests to form coal, then returned when conditions warmed up. Man has also been much more active and numerous in the northern hemisphere - still is, probably, and man's activities always impact on ecosystems.

Ricoh
3rd August 2018, 11:49 AM
Electro chemistry. :)

As in the formation of the latent image, the electron at work. Good for him!!

Naughty Nigel
3rd August 2018, 12:33 PM
As in the formation of the latent image, the electron at work. Good for him!!

The majority of their first year work was B&W using large format cameras. Some medium format cameras were available (Hasselblads) but students were also allowed to use their own medium format cameras. I don't think the Uni has any 35 mm cameras of its own.

They moved on to colour photography and (wet) colour printing in their second year although much less time was spent on this than B&W previously. The students didn't really regress to digital until later in their second year although I think they were doing quite a lot in Photoshop from their first year onwards.

Ricoh
3rd August 2018, 12:39 PM
What does your son hope to do with his degree in photography? I'm guessing here, but jobs could be hard to find.

blu-by-u
3rd August 2018, 01:21 PM
When did the EM1 digital range support panorama photography.

Here is a pano I took with the EM1 Mk ii

http://www.w9259.co.uk/St%20Pauls/

Use the icons at the bottom of the picture to zoom, pan etc.

http://www.w9259.co.uk/St%20Pauls/

That's what I am saying. The panorama assist was available in the EM1mk1 but removed from the Em1ii. Not that I use it.

Lovely panorama. :D Not easy to do a 180 deg without any error. If you go fine tooth pixel peeping into most, you will find errors. (which I did)

DerekW
3rd August 2018, 01:51 PM
b b u - a pano taken without the aid of tripod or other support - my maxim
if a job is woorth doing it is worth doing badly.....

Naughty Nigel
3rd August 2018, 02:08 PM
What does your son hope to do with his degree in photography? I'm guessing here, but jobs could be hard to find.

Surprisingly not. You would think that modern cameras would render professional photographers obsolete, but the reverse is true as businesses in particular, but also charities see the value of high quality images - which must be better than the competition.

So to answer your question our son has already found quite a bit of work, and is finding more opportunities as time goes on. He also continues to play the organ in a professional role (he studied organ at the RNCM before moving to photography). Funerals in particular pay very well!

He also has an interest in audio and video recording and I think will do more of that in the future.

Ricoh
3rd August 2018, 02:56 PM
Does he offer reduced rates for advance bookings by forum members ? :D

John
Lol

Weddings and photographers - just a thought, maybe an opening for funerals and the photographic record.

Oh, did I show you uncle Jacks funeral pics, lovely wreath! Look at Auntie lil's face! A picture!!

DerekW
3rd August 2018, 03:07 PM
You may jest - but funeral pics are incoming in the US

Ricoh
3rd August 2018, 03:18 PM
You may jest - but funeral pics are incoming in the US
Lol squared :)

You'd need a camera that handles blacks as true blacks.

For weddings - my daughter recently tied the knot - the photographer offered something called the photobooth or a shoot of the engagement (staged after the event, of course) as part of the package.

Will funeral photographers offer Uncle Jack's last cough in ward 10 as part of the package. One has to have the all important USP! :)

KeithL
3rd August 2018, 03:19 PM
Lol squared :)

You'd need a camera that handles blacks as true blacks.

For weddings - my daughter recently tied the knot - the photographer offered something called the photobooth or a shoot of the engagement (staged after the event, of course) as part of the package.

Will funeral photographers offer Uncle Jack's last cough in ward 10 as part of the package. One has to have the all important USP! :)

Even better if they can mock up a last selfie? :cool:

Ricoh
3rd August 2018, 03:23 PM
Even better if they can mock up a last selfie? :cool:

You'd need a camera that handles tue whites. And greens if there's a delay. :)

KeithL
3rd August 2018, 03:37 PM
It's common knowledge that whatever is trending in the USA, trends here a few years later. I sincerely hope that doesn't apply to Trump :eek:

"Professional Coffin Togger" could be the next big employment craze.

John

What, you mean, something along the lines of, "My coffin is the best there has ever been, and my funeral procession the biggest ever! Reports saying that i kept God waiting are just FAKE NEWS!"

KeithL
3rd August 2018, 03:58 PM
I've just been having strange delays on the net, then double posts. Isn't the internet wonderful?

DerekW
3rd August 2018, 04:21 PM
See
https://digital-photography-school.com/how-to-photograph-a-funeral-4-tips-i-hope-you-never-have-to-use/

All it takes is a quick Google or Duck DuckGo search.

Next there will be fireproof/high temperature cameras to follow the last few minutes as the body rears up under the intense heat breaking open the coffin lid.

For the birders there are the raptors that eat the bodies placed on tall sticks - a combination of Birding and necrophiliac interests.

MJ224
3rd August 2018, 04:22 PM
When did the EM1 digital range support panorama photography.

Here is a pano I took with the EM1 Mk ii

http://www.w9259.co.uk/St%20Pauls/

Use the icons at the bottom of the picture to zoom, pan etc.

http://www.w9259.co.uk/St%20Pauls/

That is some panorama.....Nice..*chr

Ricoh
3rd August 2018, 06:36 PM
See
https://digital-photography-school.com/how-to-photograph-a-funeral-4-tips-i-hope-you-never-have-to-use/

All it takes is a quick Google or Duck DuckGo search.

Next there will be fireproof/high temperature cameras to follow the last few minutes as the body rears up under the intense heat breaking open the coffin lid.

For the birders there are the raptors that eat the bodies placed on tall sticks - a combination of Birding and necrophiliac interests.
Jeez! Maybe something for Olympus to consider...rated to 600C for starters. Perhaps it's the soon to be announced new camera in 2019?
Olympus Share (is that what it's known as?) of course to BlueTooth the images to the congregation...useful too for safety reasons...wouldn't want to incinerate someone who's isn't really dead, just sleeping. ;)

Naughty Nigel
3rd August 2018, 06:51 PM
Next there will be fireproof/high temperature cameras to follow the last few minutes as the body rears up under the intense heat breaking open the coffin lid.

Perhaps the same fireproof camera could be used to follow MP's, lawyers and so forth to their final rest? :rolleyes:

blu-by-u
10th August 2018, 06:59 AM
b b u - a pano taken without the aid of tripod or other support - my maxim
if a job is woorth doing it is worth doing badly.....

So so agree. :D I hardly use a a tripod for it. Too heavy to carry that nodal swivel around.

Ricoh
10th August 2018, 11:44 AM
Back to the original question. The lack of printing has killed photography. It doesn't matter if you're shooting with the all dancing Nikon 850, or the Canon equivalent high end, or an Olympus, if you don't print they're all equal in the low quality emitted light many view your images for a second or two before flicking to the next in line in a whole flood of images on the internet. Instant photography is seeing a revival with growing interest - this is good - and a large part of the attraction is having a print you can look at in reflective light, stick to the side of the microwave etc etc.

Harold Gough
10th August 2018, 12:15 PM
(They fail to mention what to do about things that move that shouldn't, but I find gaffer tape quite effective.)

Are you still talking about cameras? :D

Harold

Jim Ford
11th August 2018, 09:38 AM
It doesn't matter if you're shooting with the all dancing Nikon 850, or the Canon equivalent high end, or an Olympus, if you don't print they're all equal in the low quality emitted light

I'd maintain that the opposite is the case! An additive image as viewed on an electronic display is far more vibrant and has a greater dynamic range than a subtractive image printed on paper, and is always nearer in representation to the actual subject.

Prints almost always are less satisfying than that we see on the screen - flatter contrast and less vibrant. I've never seen a print that's turned out better than the same image I've seen on the screen!

Jim

DerekW
11th August 2018, 09:53 AM
The only way a print can better the screen is when it is printed to A3 size or larger and also in a book so it can easily be looked at and carried around.

Ricoh
11th August 2018, 10:04 AM
Comparatively the screen offers an inferior experience compared to a silver gelatin print.

But, we're only expressing individual opinions, and as ex Capt. James Blunt once said on a chat show: "Opinions are like ****-holes, everyone has one".

Jim Ford
11th August 2018, 11:02 AM
Comparatively the screen offers an inferior experience compared to a silver gelatin print.

Sounds like you're talking subjectively. A B&W print is even less a representation of the actual subject than a colour print. You might as well say that a brief pencil or charcoal sketch offers a superior experience to an image on a colour monitor!

Jim

Otto
11th August 2018, 11:07 AM
Jim - have you ever seen a fine silver monochrome print made in the darkroom and illuminated properly? :). For mono I'd take that over a screen image any day. That said though, in full colour I'd probably have to agree with you about contrast and brilliance, unless you're talking Cibachrome prints!

Jim Ford
11th August 2018, 11:28 AM
Jim - have you ever seen a fine silver monochrome print made in the darkroom and illuminated properly?

Yes, I saw some wonderful prints in the Kodak museum when it was in Wealdstone (a very long while ago!).

Jim

Ricoh
11th August 2018, 12:26 PM
Sounds like you're talking subjectively. A B&W print is even less a representation of the actual subject than a colour print. You might as well say that a brief pencil or charcoal sketch offers a superior experience to an image on a colour monitor!

Jim
Representation of the actual subject in a realistic manner is possibly the most boring thing anyone could do with a camera, IMO (in this context I refer you to post #65)

Jim Ford
11th August 2018, 01:01 PM
Representation of the actual subject in a realistic manner is possibly the most boring thing anyone could do with a camera

Yes, but it's been at the core of photography for the past 200 years or so!

Jim

KeithL
11th August 2018, 04:35 PM
The only way a print can better the screen is when it is printed to A3 size or larger and also in a book so it can easily be looked at and carried around.

That would be quite a tome, Derek...! Especially if every print were mounted! ;)

KeithL
11th August 2018, 04:40 PM
I'd maintain that the opposite is the case! An additive image as viewed on an electronic display is far more vibrant and has a greater dynamic range than a subtractive image printed on paper, and is always nearer in representation to the actual subject.

Prints almost always are less satisfying than that we see on the screen - flatter contrast and less vibrant. I've never seen a print that's turned out better than the same image I've seen on the screen!

Jim

I wonder if good old Henry VIII would agree with you Jim. Just look at what happened when he saw Anne of Cleves after seeing her miniature colour print! And then you also have to consider the consequences for one Thomas Cromwell, Earl of Essex. One wonders why he used a Holbein when an Oly would have done the job much better......:D:D

Harold Gough
11th August 2018, 05:09 PM
The only way a print can better the screen is when it is printed to A3 size or larger and also in a book so it can easily be looked at and carried around.

Matt or glossy?

Harold

Harold Gough
11th August 2018, 05:12 PM
Representation of the actual subject in a realistic manner is possibly the most boring thing anyone could do with a camera,

Japanese tourists overcome this by lining up their family in front of the subject, thus making it absolutely enthralling!

Harold