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View Full Version : How Russia Did/Did Not Hack the US Election


Harold Gough
19th July 2018, 10:45 AM
I can't be bothered to spend time on this but it might be of interest:

https://www.grahamcluley.com/smashing-security-087-how-russia-hacked-the-us-election/

Harold

Naughty Nigel
19th July 2018, 11:34 AM
I don't know what to make of it, but somebody made an interesting observation recently.

Very simply, hackers are very good at covering their tracks, and are very unlikely to leave Kremlin calling cards. If the hackers left evidence that they were Russian the chances are that they were not Russian at all, but wanted to create the impression that they were!

Harold Gough
19th July 2018, 12:00 PM
I don't know what to make of it, but somebody made an interesting observation recently.

Very simply, hackers are very good at covering their tracks, and are very unlikely to leave Kremlin calling cards. If the hackers left evidence that they were Russian the chances are that they were not Russian at all, but wanted to create the impression that they were!

Naughty Donaldov! :D

Harold

Wally
19th July 2018, 03:23 PM
I don't know what to make of it, but somebody made an interesting observation recently.

Very simply, hackers are very good at covering their tracks, and are very unlikely to leave Kremlin calling cards. If the hackers left evidence that they were Russian the chances are that they were not Russian at all, but wanted to create the impression that they were!

Equally so, the obverse could be true? Hiding out in plain sight *yes.

Naughty Nigel
19th July 2018, 03:50 PM
Equally so, the obverse could be true? Hiding out in plain sight *yes.

Quite possibly. Or maybe it was the Chinese or the North Koreans who wanted to make it look like the Russians?

Harold Gough
19th July 2018, 04:49 PM
I have a hacking cough. Who do I blame? :confused:

Harold

TimP
19th July 2018, 04:59 PM
Naughty Donaldov! :D

Harold

Naughty? The man is an utter, utter <well, insert derogatory phrase here>. I don’t think I’ve despised a so called ‘human being’ as much as him, ever.

pdk42
19th July 2018, 05:26 PM
We're all doomed!

TimP
19th July 2018, 05:45 PM
Ah, Dads Army! Still works even after all these years.

Wally
19th July 2018, 05:54 PM
We're all doomed!


There's no need to worry about all this doom and gloom.



According to the so called "world's most powerful leader" in the world... it's ALL FAKE NEWS!


However, even if not, we can always rely on our stiff upper lip and carry on regardless.*yes ;)

pdk42
19th July 2018, 07:49 PM
I listened to some of the podcast. Most of it was chit-chat, but there were a few minutes on how the hacking was done. Basically - it was all very low tech. The hackers sent fishing e-mails to members of the democratic party hierarchy. The mails pretended to be from Google and asked the recipients to re-confirm their login details by getting them to click through to a spoof web-site which captured their login IDs and passwords. Job done. From there, the hackers simply logged on to the mail accounts and copied across thousands of mails which they then passed to the Republicans.

So, my take-away points from this:

1) The "hackers" used very low tech that exploited simple username/password security. This is probably the worst type of authentication in security terms and it's interesting that the Democratic party thought it was OK to use insecure e-mail for politically sensitive material. If you're concerned about security you should be using two-factor authentication (e.g. where your phone is used to send you a one-time login token) and encrypted message contents.

2) The recipients of the mails were dumb enough to fall for fishing attacks. Seriously - no one should ever think clicking through a mail asking you to re-enter login details is anything but a fraud attempt.

3) The Republicans were sufficiently devoid of honour and integrity that they were prepared to accept stolen mails from the Democrats for political gain. Maybe I'm being naive, but this is no way to run an accountable democracy.

pandora
19th July 2018, 08:32 PM
Re: How Russia Did/Did Not Hack the US Election

"Why wouldn't they .. ?."

Jim Ford
19th July 2018, 08:54 PM
Naughty? The man is an utter, utter <well, insert derogatory phrase here>. I don’t think I’ve despised a so called ‘human being’ as much as him, ever.

One of the best I've seen is "tangerine colostomy bag"!

Jim

Naughty Nigel
20th July 2018, 07:30 AM
One of the best I've seen is "tangerine colostomy bag"!

Jim

:D:D:D:D:D

Thank you Jim. That description has made my day, and could be applied to a few others I think. *yes

MJ224
20th July 2018, 07:31 AM
I have a hacking cough. Who do I blame? :confused:

Harold

I'm a very good hacker...………………

At golf...………...*chr

Naughty Nigel
20th July 2018, 07:33 AM
So, my take-away points from this:

1) The "hackers" used very low tech that exploited simple username/password security. This is probably the worst type of authentication in security terms and it's interesting that the Democratic party thought it was OK to use insecure e-mail for politically sensitive material. If you're concerned about security you should be using two-factor authentication (e.g. where your phone is used to send you a one-time login token) and encrypted message contents.

2) The recipients of the mails were dumb enough to fall for fishing attacks. Seriously - no one should ever think clicking through a mail asking you to re-enter login details is anything but a fraud attempt.

3) The Republicans were sufficiently devoid of honour and integrity that they were prepared to accept stolen mails from the Democrats for political gain. Maybe I'm being naive, but this is no way to run an accountable democracy.

And if the email footer said "Scanned for Viruses by Kaspersky" then it must have been the Russians. *yes

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the Americans may not be the sharpest knives in the drawer?

MJ224
20th July 2018, 07:40 AM
And if the email footer said "Scanned for Viruses by Kaspersky" then it must have been the Russians. *yes

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the Americans may not be the sharpest knives in the drawer?

yea but...………


Only nation to put a man on the moon, Global Positioning System, IBM computers, err...………..Macdonalds, err...…...race riots.....err.....Donald...……...*chr*chr

TimP
20th July 2018, 07:46 AM
.......

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the Americans may not be the sharpest knives in the drawer?

I don’t think your average Brit is a whole lot better, you’ve only got to look at what mainstream media is the most popular for a clue : The Sun, The Daily Mail.

That said, is there any ‘real’ media which speaks highly of Trump? I’ve personally not read a single thing about any good he might be doing for the ordinary man / woman. Nothing, not a word. Would love to see a reputable source for some balance.

Naughty Nigel
20th July 2018, 07:56 AM
....... is there any ‘real’ media which speaks highly of Trump? I’ve personally not read a single thing about any good he might be doing for the ordinary man / woman. Nothing, not a word. Would love to see a reputable source for some balance.

That is the problem that I have. He may not be a nice bloke, (few people in his position are), but is he really as bad as the media painting him? Trump bashing has become almost fashionable.

Yet even the broadly left-wing BBC are reporting that millions of Americans really like the guy; that there are more jobs and business confidence, and that he is tackling problems which have been ignored for years.

The fact that he is a businessman rather than a politician does not make him a bad guy, but his reported attitudes are worrying.

Naughty Nigel
20th July 2018, 07:57 AM
yea but...………


Only nation to put a man on the moon

Allegedly. *yes

TimP
20th July 2018, 08:35 AM
Can totally believe millions really like the guy, but are they believing his supposed lies?
Whilst I understand that a change is often needed, a new approach and all that goes with it, what I don’t understand is that here is a businessman with a track record of failure, no skills becoming of a statesman and a questionable IQ (he certainly speaks like an uneducated child at times) and no-one, or no process seems able to take him to task, call out his lies and tackle his seemingly continuous arrogant and narcissistic behaviour, totally unbecoming of the position he holds.
You’ve only got to see some of the interviews with typical Republicans to understand how he got voted in!

pdk42
20th July 2018, 08:51 AM
That is the problem that I have. He may not be a nice bloke, (few people in his position are), but is he really as bad as the media painting him? Trump bashing has become almost fashionable.

Yet even the broadly left-wing BBC are reporting that millions of Americans really like the guy; that there are more jobs and business confidence, and that he is tackling problems which have been ignored for years.

The fact that he is a businessman rather than a politician does not make him a bad guy, but his reported attitudes are worrying.

I always appreciate your insightful alternative views Nigel - but I have to say that finding good in The Donald is testing even my reasonable nature :). The latest backtracking with Putin for me just reveals that he's an incompetent amateur who is winging his way through the "presidency". That he also has clearly racist views and a tendency to favour autocratic billionaire dictators rather than public-minded elected leaders is deeply worrying. What he's doing to Iran right now is only likely to lead to something warlike and nasty:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/20/desperate-to-find-a-way-out-iran-edges-towards-precipice

The guy, courtesy of his position and ignorance, is changing the political shape of the world; and not in any positive way.

Jim Ford
20th July 2018, 08:54 AM
Has it ever occurred to anyone that the Americans may not be the sharpest knives in the drawer?

"You may be sure that the Americans will commit all the stupidities they can think of, plus some that are beyond imagination."
Charles de Gaulle

Jim

Naughty Nigel
20th July 2018, 08:59 AM
"You may be sure that the Americans will commit all the stupidities they can think of, plus some that are beyond imagination."
Charles de Gaulle

Jim

Thank you again Jim. *yes

TimP
20th July 2018, 09:15 AM
Going slightly off topic here, are there people here who seriously doubt man has actually walked on the moon?

DerekW
20th July 2018, 09:19 AM
NN - brodly leftwing BBC

How a person views the politics of the BBC is more an indicator of the person making the comment than an accurate assessment of the BBC.
Typically the BBC is slightly pro government regardless of which party is in power. (Afterall the BBC is dependant on the government to get the next allocation of funding from the licence - or even they will continue to get funding from the licence).

Naughty Nigel
20th July 2018, 09:40 AM
The latest backtracking with Putin for me just reveals that he's an incompetent amateur who is winging his way through the "presidency". That he also has clearly racist views and a tendency to favour autocratic billionaire dictators rather than public-minded elected leaders is deeply worrying. What he's doing to Iran right now is only likely to lead to something warlike and nasty:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/20/desperate-to-find-a-way-out-iran-edges-towards-precipice

The guy, courtesy of his position and ignorance, is changing the political shape of the world; and not in any positive way.

I cannot disagree with any of that Paul; but large numbers of Americans clearly hold very different views, and claim much more positive experiences despite, or perhaps because of Trump's almost entirely negative media coverage.

Trump's reported behaviour during his recent visits to the UK and his meeting with President Putin is also deeply worrying, and yet he seems to have brought North Korea to the table when countless other administrations have failed over the years.

If only the media was more neutral we might see a different picture.

TimP
20th July 2018, 09:44 AM
Not seen any evidence of what good has come from NK table though. Probably all turn out to be yet more bluster.

Naughty Nigel
20th July 2018, 09:45 AM
Going slightly off topic here, are there people here who seriously doubt man has actually walked on the moon?

I am happy to believe that man has walked on the moon, but there seems to be mounting evidence to suggest otherwise, and that the Americans mounted an elaborate PR stunt to show that they were more advanced than the Russians.

If true the 'failure' of the live television camera was very convenient. :)

MJ224
20th July 2018, 09:48 AM
I am happy to believe that man has walked on the moon, but there seems to be mounting evidence to suggest otherwise, and that the Americans mounted an elaborate PR stunt to show that they were more advanced than the Russians.

If true the 'failure' of the live television camera was very convenient. :)


As almost always there those who believe in the opposite to most. I have an extremely close relative who is in that camp...….and I am not saying who. She would hit me if I did...………..*chr

TimP
20th July 2018, 09:53 AM
........the Americans mounted an elaborate PR stunt to show that they were more advanced than the Russians.

I think there are far too many people who would need to be involved in the cover up, tens of thousands of whom many would have blown it by now. I’ve spoken to people with a limited involvement in parts of the programme and never felt they didn’t believe it happened. I don’t think we, the West, needed to prove anything to the Russians about how more advanced we were, we had evidence from their military hardware.

pdk42
20th July 2018, 07:12 PM
... there seems to be mounting evidence to suggest otherwise, and that the Americans mounted an elaborate PR stunt to show that they were more advanced than the Russians.


What evidence is that Nigel?

drmarkf
20th July 2018, 08:08 PM
Yeah.
Galileo suffered from similar 'skepticism'.
Try this: https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/news/apollo-11.html

KeithL
25th July 2018, 03:08 PM
So far as Trump is concerned, one thing was eminently clear from footage of his visit: he doesn't appear to have any concept of good manners. Irrespective of who she is, he should, as a matter of common courtesy, have let the Queen go first when inspecting the guard of honor; but no, he stepped straight in front of her. That's the action of someone who is both boorish and self-centered, methinks.

There is plenty of high quality American material going back three or four decades that give a clear indication of his character. One that says a lot is the report of his eulogy at his father's funeral. It was all about how his father's death affected Donald, not a word about his father. That ought to tell you all you need to know about the Donald.

Jim Ford
25th July 2018, 03:26 PM
You don't need to read anything about Trump to form an opinion. You only need to watch two video clips. The first is the one where he pushes the Montenegro PM out of the way, so he can get to the front of the stage and puff himself out and preen. The other is where a child gives him a hat to sign, and he signs it and throws it into the crowd!

Jim

KeithL
25th July 2018, 03:31 PM
I believe that we think alike on this one, Jim. There is a very simple way in which Kim played him like an old violin, and that is to flatter him. A few words of flattery and he's yours!

KeithL
25th July 2018, 03:37 PM
Yeah.
Galileo suffered from similar 'skepticism'.
Try this: https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/news/apollo-11.html

For all his genius, Galileo Galilei was forced by the Catholic church to recant his views on the earth going round the Sun, etc.

One who was not so lucky (or indeed compliant) was Giordano Bruno. He wrote books in which he had worked out, with the help of reading Copernicus etc that not only was there our solar system, but there were many others; in other words, ours, and we, weren't unique. His forthright views on this and religion got him excommunicated by both Rome and the Calvinists - the only person excommunicated by Catholics and Protestants alike! Once Rome got its hands on him, after seven years of 'questioning', he was burned at the stake in Rome in 1600. So much for speaking the truth being better than lying...

drmarkf
25th July 2018, 03:56 PM
... So much for speaking the truth being better than lying...

Well, true, but he's remembered for his bravery in upholding what he believed to be true (with evidence, also, although modern scientific method hadn't been codified by then, of course).

Incidentally, that's not something anyone is likely to remember The Donald for, unless they're insane or afflicted with motivated reasoning, of course.

BTW I don't think anyone could reasonably criticise Galileo for 'recanting' in the face of the rack and the other instruments of the usual medieval 'divine enlightenment'.

The excellent 'Life of Galileo' production at the National in the mid-2000s explored this and many other aspects of this fascinating man: https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2006/jul/07/theatre1

Harold Gough
25th July 2018, 05:24 PM
Has it ever occurred to anyone that the Americans may not be the sharpest knives in the drawer?

Just look who they elected President: Forest Gump!

Harold

Harold Gough
25th July 2018, 05:26 PM
So far as Trump is concerned, one thing was eminently clear from footage of his visit: he doesn't appear to have any concept of good manners. Irrespective of who she is, he should, as a matter of common courtesy, have let the Queen go first when inspecting the guard of honor; but no, he stepped straight in front of her. That's the action of someone who is both boorish and self-centered, methinks.

There is plenty of high quality American material going back three or four decades that give a clear indication of his character. One that says a lot is the report of his eulogy at his father's funeral. It was all about how his father's death affected Donald, not a word about his father. That ought to tell you all you need to know about the Donald.

I mostly don't like americanisms but "Jerk" fits Trump like it was tailor-made.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
26th July 2018, 10:28 AM
What evidence is that Nigel?

I have no evidence at all Paul, and for now I am happy to believe that the Americans did land on the moon in July 1969.

However, there are always conspiracy theorists and some of the points made do seem valid; such as the American flag flapping in the wind (what wind?) dust from footprints, the lack of stars in photographs and so forth. There is also the question about how deep footprints could have occurred in a weightless environment.

From a technical perspective a moon landing would also have been hugely complex given the lack of computers in 1969. Given that Northern are totally baffled by the complexity of running trains to and from Windermere in our current age of supercomputers how on earth did we reach the moon fifty years ago? :rolleyes:

drmarkf
26th July 2018, 05:13 PM
Hmmmm.

The computer all-but bu@@ered it up in July 1969 as well: Apollo 11‘s computer was overloading and the lunar module was heading for a crash impact in a boulder field, so Armstrong had to take over control and pilot it in manually.

https://www.space.com/26593-apollo-11-moon-landing-scariest-moments.html

Everything’s just got so much more complicated these days, so when the computer blows a transistor a single expert can’t step in and save the situation.

MJ224
26th July 2018, 05:52 PM
Don't enough information about it all to argue, but I know there is GRAVITY on the moon. Thus footprints. Whether the depth is relevant I don't know. Flag=s waving etc, have not seen the evidence thus cannot comment...…..

I remember watching it on TV. I was in Norway with the forces...…..Never any doubt then...…..*chr

KeithL
26th July 2018, 06:34 PM
If I remember correctly, there is also some wind on the moon. So no reason why the flag shouldn't flap a bit.

Could do with some wind her tonight...... phew!

Jim Ford
26th July 2018, 06:37 PM
However, there are always conspiracy theorists and some of the points made do seem valid; such as the American flag flapping in the wind (what wind?)

Any disturbance of the flag eg flapping when erecting would last longer than on earth, as there's no air to damp out the movement. The only damping forces would be from within the flag material which may be quite low. In other words, you could probably get hold of the flag corner, pull it and let go, and it would swing backwards and forwards for some time.

dust from footprints

Not sure what you mean here.

the lack of stars in photographs and so forth.

Given the very high light levels on the moon, maybe the exposure was too fast to capture the stars.

There is also the question about how deep footprints could have occurred in a weightless environment.

The moon is not a weightless environment!

Jim

KeithL
26th July 2018, 06:38 PM
Well, true, but he's remembered for his bravery in upholding what he believed to be true (with evidence, also, although modern scientific method hadn't been codified by then, of course).

BTW I don't think anyone could reasonably criticise Galileo for 'recanting' in the face of the rack and the other instruments of the usual medieval 'divine enlightenment'.

The excellent 'Life of Galileo' production at the National in the mid-2000s explored this and many other aspects of this fascinating man: https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2006/jul/07/theatre1

Yes, and they made sure he stuck to his recantation! Such an enlightened time, wasn't it? And when you consider the French religious wars of the same period, with them carving up, torturing, and burning each other - all those good, upstanding Christians - it says a great deal about religion, methinks. They made N Ireland look like a kindergarten!

Naughty Nigel
27th July 2018, 10:24 AM
Yes, and they made sure he stuck to his recantation! Such an enlightened time, wasn't it? And when you consider the French religious wars of the same period, with them carving up, torturing, and burning each other - all those good, upstanding Christians - it says a great deal about religion, methinks. They made N Ireland look like a kindergarten!

That was four hundred years ago. It has taken Asia and parts of the Middle East and Africa until now to catch up. :rolleyes:

TimP
27th July 2018, 10:40 AM
From memory the gravity on the moon is one sixth of earths gravity.

KeithL
28th July 2018, 07:45 PM
That was four hundred years ago. It has taken Asia and parts of the Middle East and Africa until now to catch up. :rolleyes:

Sorry, Nigel, closer to 500. :) There were five wars of religion, IIRC, between 1550 and 1590. I don't know if you are interested in such material, but if you fancy a very interesting read, try "The Rival Queens", by Nancy Goldstone, about Catherine de'Medici and her youngest daughter, Marguerite, Queen of Navarre. Catherine was behind one of the most treacherous acts in history, the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre of the Huguenots, which started on Aug 22nd, 1572, and went on until that October. She had practically forced her daughter Marguerite (aka Margot) to marry the Huguenot King Henri of Navarre, invited all his relatives to the wedding at Notre Dame, then arranged to have them massacred during the night after the wedding celebrations were over, by the Guise clan, who were extreme Catholics. Wedding guests! Ultimately some 20-30,000 were murdered. The act shook the whole of Europe. That book reads like a novel - they say fact is stranger than fiction, and that certainly is.

Naughty Nigel
30th July 2018, 03:42 PM
What evidence is that Nigel?

Well you did ask Paul...... :D

Missing Apollo 11 Footage (https://youtu.be/SIR9SdlIbDE)

I'll get my coat.

Keith-369
30th July 2018, 04:25 PM
Well you did ask Paul...... :D

Missing Apollo 11 Footage (https://youtu.be/SIR9SdlIbDE)

I'll get my coat.

Love it :D :D :D

KeithL
30th July 2018, 06:11 PM
A right pair of lunar-tics, methinks! :D:D:D