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CaptainD
31st December 2007, 04:46 PM
Why do we have this need to upgrade our PCs I wonder? I built myself a new PC and have been setting it up as my image processing tool over the last month. The result for all this effort is a colour error when printing!

My setup consits of a Samsung SM226BW monitor, Shuttle PC with a dedicated 8600GT graphics card with a Epson R2400 printer (I use EPSON genuine inks) on which I use Ilford Galerie papers.

My new Samsung monitor has been profiled with the Eye one device, I have downloaded the lateset Epson drivers and Ilford profiles but the print colours are still just a little off. Despite Ilford suggesting to use the relative colourmetric setting in Pshop I have found that I get a slightly better result using perceptual.

But the problem remains, so I just wondered if any of you wonderful people have any recommendations for who to use for buying a dedicated printer profile.

Initially I think I will just try one for Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl paper which I really like. Your thoughts and ideas would be most welcome.

Happy New Year

Chris

CaptainD
18th January 2008, 02:47 PM
This might seem like I am going mad by answering my own post but I took the plunge and purchased some profiles for 2 Ilford Galerie papers printing on my Epson R2400 printer.

I found a company called Pure Profiles ( www.pureprofiles.com ) who charge a very reasonable 14.95 per profile with discounts given for 3 or more profiles ordered. I am really pleased with the results, ordering your profiles could not be easier thanks to a very user friendly web site. The colour charts are downloaded then printed with the assistance of their excellent on-line guides. Having let them dry and marked them with your order number, pop them in the post to pure profiles. The online tracking lets you know they have arrived and before you now it you custom printer profile will be in your email inbox.

As you can tell I have been very impressed with this companies service and the results coming out of my printer have been most pleasing. An improvement over the Ilford profiles has been achieved, not dramatic but noticeable. If you are in the market for a custom printer profile, Pure Profiles are worth considering.

Cheers

Chris ;)

Ian
18th January 2008, 03:09 PM
Why do we have this need to upgrade our PCs I wonder? I built myself a new PC and have been setting it up as my image processing tool over the last month. The result for all this effort is a colour error when printing!

My setup consits of a Samsung SM226BW monitor, Shuttle PC with a dedicated 8600GT graphics card with a Epson R2400 printer (I use EPSON genuine inks) on which I use Ilford Galerie papers.

My new Samsung monitor has been profiled with the Eye one device, I have downloaded the lateset Epson drivers and Ilford profiles but the print colours are still just a little off. Despite Ilford suggesting to use the relative colourmetric setting in Pshop I have found that I get a slightly better result using perceptual.

But the problem remains, so I just wondered if any of you wonderful people have any recommendations for who to use for buying a dedicated printer profile.

Initially I think I will just try one for Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl paper which I really like. Your thoughts and ideas would be most welcome.

Happy New Year

Chris

Why not buy the kit to make your own profiles? A ColorVision Printfix Pro outfit, which includes a more expensive screen calibrator than the Huey Pro, costs around £335.

Ian

CaptainD
18th January 2008, 04:06 PM
Dear Ian,

I did think about that but in the end I was not brave enough! I have an Eye-one monitor calibration tool but I just wondered if I would get the best out of the printer profiling device without any training. I see Spyder have a new system out also, perhaps I should still think about purchasing a printer profiling system. If you or anyone has any experience of these printer profiling devices I would be very interested read any comments on them.

Thanks for the suggestion

Chris

PeterD
18th January 2008, 04:38 PM
Hi Chris,

I have been struggling with the problem of how I can achieve accurate colour reproduction.

My starting point was the monitor where we make adjustments to the image in an editing programme. Largely using the display to judge the quality of the image. I realised that I needed to calibrate the monitor and that calibration will vary with time and therefore any fixed profile would not be satisfactory.

The next problem is the printer and whether this could output the colours I see on the monitor. This too would need a separate calibration which varies with the different types of paper used.

Looking for a A3 printer led me to make a choice between the Epson and HP range ( I had already reviewed and discounted the Canon, Lexmark ranges). I have always been an Epson man so I admit I was quite biased at the outset. Despite this, I am going for the HP Photosmart Pro B9180gp as it will address all the above issues. The printer includes a calibration kit for the monitor and checks the type of paper loaded and applies the correct profile for the paper. This should ensure that the prints are accurate and are repeatable.

I shall be purchasing this printer in the next couple of months.

Kind regards

PeterD

Nick Temple-Fry
18th January 2008, 04:55 PM
Hi Chris,

<snipped>

Looking for a A3 printer led me to make a choice between the Epson and HP range ( I had already reviewed and discounted the Canon, Lexmark ranges). I have always been an Epson man so I admit I was quite biased at the outset. Despite this, I am going for the HP Photosmart Pro B9180gp as it will address all the above issues. The printer includes a calibration kit for the monitor and checks the type of paper loaded and applies the correct profile for the paper. This should ensure that the prints are accurate and are repeatable.

I shall be purchasing this printer in the next couple of months.

Kind regards

PeterD


Peter

Might be worth waiting to see the specs (and UK prices) for the just announced 8850 - seems to be the 9180 in civilian clothes.

http://www.printerville.net/2008/01/14/hp-ups-the-ante-with-the-photosmart-pro-b8850/

Can't see it yet on the HP website.

Nick

CaptainD
18th January 2008, 05:14 PM
I thought these PDF articles that I found might be of interest to anyone that is currently "enjoying" the challenge of matching screen to prints. I found them via the great god Google, thanks must go to both the author and Amersham Photographic Society for making them available.

Here are the links -

Why doesn't my print match my screen -

http://www.amershamphotosoc.com/colour%20management/Print%20to%20Screen%20Matching.pdf

Achieving consistent colour

http://www.amershamphotosoc.com/colour%20management/Achieving%20Consistent%20Colour.pdf

They make very interesting reading and should help during those moments when the wood and the trees are getting blured.

All the best

Chris

CaptainD
18th January 2008, 05:34 PM
Dear Peter,

Thanks for your interesting reply, I must admit that I too have always been a Epson man. I would really be interested to know how you get on with the HP printer.

I have been most pleased with the Epson R2400, for the calibration of my monitor I have used the Pantone Eye-one tool which is very easy to use. I found some tips on the base settings for my new Samsung monitor via the web which as a result produced a very nice flat curve which hardly needed correcting with the generated profile.

Now that I have the custom printer profile I am very pleased with the colour matching of my screen and print output

Cheers

Chris

PeterD
18th January 2008, 05:49 PM
Thanks Nick for the info below
===================================
Might be worth waiting to see the specs (and UK prices) for the just announced 8850 - seems to be the 9180 in civilian clothes.

http://www.printerville.net/2008/01/...art-pro-b8850/

Can't see it yet on the HP website.

Nick
__________________
Nick Temple-Fry
====================================

and thanks Chris for your reply.

One of the problems I have experienced with the Epson range was the clogging up of the ink. I have purchased a Hp L7680 Office Jet Pro printer and have used it for the last 4 months. Never a problem with the inks and, touch wood, no problems with the printer in general. Ink cartridge price is geate than Epson but this is moe than compensated for by the amount of ink in each cartridge. In short, its this experience which has swayed me.

Now I shall have to look up the printer Nick has pointed out.

Best regards

PeterD

CaptainD
18th January 2008, 06:01 PM
Dear Peter,

I know what you mean about Epson printers having clogging problems. It affected my original Stylus Phot 750. I am very happy to report no ink clogging problems with my R2400 which includes 3 months of being turned off while I was sick recently. I have to be honest I was more than a little worried when I turned it on after such a long break for that very reason. I am using Epson inks but there is 1 thing that really frustrates me with the R2400 though. If I have 2 cartridges that are getting low which are reaported via the Status monitor. Then if I change just one because I know the other has more reliable life left in it. The result is that the remaining low one no longer reports the ink level and gives a solid red light on the printer when the ink carraige returns to its normal position.

Must be another way Epson have thought to get owners changing cartridges early!!

Cheers

Chris

Ian
18th January 2008, 06:43 PM
Dear Ian,

I did think about that but in the end I was not brave enough! I have an Eye-one monitor calibration tool but I just wondered if I would get the best out of the printer profiling device without any training. I see Spyder have a new system out also, perhaps I should still think about purchasing a printer profiling system. If you or anyone has any experience of these printer profiling devices I would be very interested read any comments on them.

Thanks for the suggestion

Chris

Printer profiling is quite straightforward if you follow the instructions - though it's a little tedious as you have to manually scan the printed test swatches. But you will get better results because you're profiling your printer, your batch of inks and your batch of paper. And you can re-profile any time you like - for no additional cost :)

Ian

PeterD
18th January 2008, 07:20 PM
Peter

Might be worth waiting to see the specs (and UK prices) for the just announced 8850 - seems to be the 9180 in civilian clothes.

http://www.printerville.net/2008/01/14/hp-ups-the-ante-with-the-photosmart-pro-b8850/

Can't see it yet on the HP website.

Nick

Nick

Thanks for the steer. Looks interesting and its hard to determine the real differences between them. One of them though might affect what I intend to use it for and thats media thickness. The 9180 will cope with 1.5mm thickness media whilst the 8850 will only cope with 0.75mm thickness. Its not a killer though. I shall have to work out if its a limitation is one I can work with. The fact it is using the ink and ink drive mechanism of the 9180 speaks volumes for its proven reliability. As far as the calibration kit is concerned, it can be bought seperately but it would be nice if bundled (at reduced cost!).

Cheers

PeterD

PeterD
18th January 2008, 07:23 PM
Dear Peter,

I know what you mean about Epson printers having clogging problems. It affected my original Stylus Phot 750. I am very happy to report no ink clogging problems with my R2400 which includes 3 months of being turned off while I was sick recently. I have to be honest I was more than a little worried when I turned it on after such a long break for that very reason. I am using Epson inks but there is 1 thing that really frustrates me with the R2400 though. If I have 2 cartridges that are getting low which are reaported via the Status monitor. Then if I change just one because I know the other has more reliable life left in it. The result is that the remaining low one no longer reports the ink level and gives a solid red light on the printer when the ink carraige returns to its normal position.

Must be another way Epson have thought to get owners changing cartridges early!!

Cheers

Chris

Hi Chris

Thanks for the reply. I used to make sure the printer was not turned off to reduce the number of times I had to go through a cleaning cycle. It may of course be that the pigment inks are not so prone to clogging. Anyhow, its good to hear your report on this.

Best regards

PeterD

Barr1e
18th January 2008, 07:26 PM
I use Qimage for all my printing tasks.

http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage/

Regards. Barr1e

PeterD
18th January 2008, 08:37 PM
I use Qimage for all my printing tasks.

http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage/

Regards. Barr1e

Hi Barrie,

Not sure if controlling printer profiles is enough as I said above. The monitor needs to be calibrated as well and this is why I was looking at the HP9180GP.

I have copied part of the spec below:-

HP Colorimeter and colour controls ensure accurate and consistent prints every time.

Get consistent, accurate colour with included HP Colorimeter powered by GretagMacbeth technology, densitometric closed loop colour calibration and electrostatic drop detection printhead management system. Easily print photos fast using included Adobe Photoshop plug-in. HP Colour Centre tool guides you through colour management and printing fully compatible with Adobe RGB, sRGB and ICC colour management. Get professional colour management with optional HP raster image processor (RIP).

As you can see this is a real-time closed loop system and the gp model comes with the means of calibrated the monitor too. I also understand that different papers can be used on the fly and the printer recognises these and uses an appropriate profile. The whole set up currently costs approx 552.

Kind regards

PeterD

Barr1e
18th January 2008, 09:37 PM
Hi Barrie,

Not sure if controlling printer profiles is enough as I said above. The monitor needs to be calibrated as well and this is why I was looking at the HP9180GP.

I have copied part of the spec below:-

HP Colorimeter and colour controls ensure accurate and consistent prints every time.

Get consistent, accurate colour with included HP Colorimeter powered by GretagMacbeth technology, densitometric closed loop colour calibration and electrostatic drop detection printhead management system. Easily print photos fast using included Adobe Photoshop plug-in. HP Colour Centre tool guides you through colour management and printing fully compatible with Adobe RGB, sRGB and ICC colour management. Get professional colour management with optional HP raster image processor (RIP).

As you can see this is a real-time closed loop system and the gp model comes with the means of calibrated the monitor too. I also understand that different papers can be used on the fly and the printer recognises these and uses an appropriate profile. The whole set up currently costs approx 552.

Kind regards

PeterD

I use Spyder 2 Express to calibrate the screen.

Regards. Barr1e

art frames
19th January 2008, 05:53 PM
I have struggled with A3 printers for years HP and Epson and have spent a lot of money. I got so fed up with the Epson 2400 telling me to change cartridges that I bought a continuous flow system with equivalent high spec ink and have been moderately happy. Sometimes they are knockout.

But I have decided this is the last time I'll spend hundreds of pounds on a printer. I know I can buy really good print from a specialist giclee print shop.

I feel sure when you add it all up and cost in all of the poor prints as well as the good ones and the wasted space for the machine, paper and so forth that DiY isn't sensible. Has anyone done a proper side by side costing between real photographs, home prints and giclee from a bureau before I do?

Peter

PeterD
19th January 2008, 07:34 PM
I have struggled with A3 printers for years HP and Epson and have spent a lot of money. I got so fed up with the Epson 2400 telling me to change cartridges that I bought a continuous flow system with equivalent high spec ink and have been moderately happy. Sometimes they are knockout.

But I have decided this is the last time I'll spend hundreds of pounds on a printer. I know I can buy really good print from a specialist giclee print shop.

I feel sure when you add it all up and cost in all of the poor prints as well as the good ones and the wasted space for the machine, paper and so forth that DiY isn't sensible. Has anyone done a proper side by side costing between real photographs, home prints and giclee from a bureau before I do?

Peter

Thanks for your reply above Peter.

I agree with your comments re. large footprint, initial and running costs etc. I have thought about getting a lab to print the images I want but keep coming back to the original questions regarding profiling the monitor accurately and wanting to control what is printed. Even so, if printing pictures was my sole aim then the labs may seem an attractive proposition.
My other interest/hobby is model railways and this is where an A3 printer comes into its own. I can create back scenes from photographs printed on card and also sheets for building model structures. All of this needs a printer capable of taking thick media and also inks that are long lasting and waterproof.
I am trying hard to think before committing myself as I do not want to waste a lot of money (I think we all have done that in the past, certainly I have). I have looked for a system that will meet all my needs and so far I am favouring the HP9180 but Nick pointed out the HP8850 which is due for release this Spring and is a sibling to the HP9180 using the same inks and ink drive mechanism.

Kind regards

PeterD

blu-by-u
13th August 2008, 02:14 AM
Sorry for digging up an old thread..

Just bought myself a Canon ip4500 and is struggling with WISIWIG. So I am looking at getting an old ColorVision Printfix off ebay. Any advice?

PeterD
13th August 2008, 06:49 AM
Sorry for digging up an old thread..

Just bought myself a Canon ip4500 and is struggling with WISIWIG. So I am looking at getting an old ColorVision Printfix off ebay. Any advice?

Hi Blu

Gosh I had forgotten this thread. I purchaed the HP 9180gp printer and started to use it. I was dissappointed in the results because I was not seeing the same colours as I had on my monitor.
To cut a long story short, it turns out that I was relying on the printer profile and let the printer adjust the colour output - WRONG.
When I used the application derived profile I found the the monitor colour calibration was used and that the output was now exactly as I expected.
Not sure if this will help.

Peter

Bo_Nydahl
13th August 2008, 10:22 AM
CaptainD, Why did you buy profiles? They are free from www.ilford.com. Or do you know something I don't?

Mike

PeterD
13th August 2008, 11:27 AM
Hi Blu

Gosh I had forgotten this thread. I purchaed the HP 9180gp printer and started to use it. I was dissappointed in the results because I was not seeing the same colours as I had on my monitor.
To cut a long story short, it turns out that I was relying on the printer profile and let the printer adjust the colour output - WRONG.
When I used the application derived profile I found the the monitor colour calibration was used and that the output was now exactly as I expected.
Not sure if this will help.

Peter

Blu

I have done a bit of research and it seems to do the job but, at a cost.

I know its perhaps a bit late for you but the HP 9180gb does the printer/paper calibration in real time see http://www.trustedreviews.com/printers/review/2007/01/05/HP-Photosmart-Pro-B9180/p1#

This is currently retailing at £399 new in the UK. It also comes with a monitor calibration system to create icc profiles for your monitor which are also used for reference by the printer. I believe an even cheaper HP solution is available now but I can vouch for this set up. No blocked nozzle problems and no fiddling required. Just calibrate the monitor periodically (I do this every 2 weeks) and make sure you select the application derived profile and the correct paper type and you are away.

In your case though, try the solution I was given by HP technical support. It may solve your problem and save you spending anything!

Peter

blu-by-u
13th August 2008, 01:15 PM
Thanks PeterD. I am downloading the Fujical.jpg even as I type..the HP photosmart is way too EX for me. The Canon ip4500 should be enough for me for the moment..Next is how to tweak the profiles. Is there a special tool or software?

PeterD
13th August 2008, 02:50 PM
Hi Blu,

I am just looking up your printer on the web - I should have done this first:(.

To get accurate results you must profile your monitor first as it with this you will be editing your images and deciding if the result is satisfactory. This profile that you create is used by your PC as an alternative to the standard profile that the operating system will use instead of the generic profile. Monitors change their characteristics and colour gamut over time hence I re-profile every two weeks. It's very important that the monitor is on for at least an hour before you carry out a profile.

Next, the printer has its own gamut and usually is supplied with its own profile. Because the printer and the monitor gamuts are different, you could never achieve accurate colour printing without using a translation between the two gamuts. By using the application profile rather than the printer profile when printing, the differences are taken care of. The choice is within the printer settings which I shall look for shortly.

If only life was this easy, then it would be pretty straight forward unfortunately......the amount of ink placed on the paper also affects the accuracy of print. For this reason, it is also essential that the printer knows the type of paper that is in use so that the correct ink density is applied. There are available profiles for different paper types available and these are free from the paper/printer manufacturers.

I hope the above makes sense to you but I thought that it would be useful to go through this first as I research your printer capabilities.

Peter

PS I have downloaded the pdf manual and have read it. Tantalisingly it shows a 'profiles' tab but nothing about it in the manual. Are you printing from a computer (my comments assume this) or are you printing picbridge?

blu-by-u
14th August 2008, 01:04 AM
Heavy stuff...Ok..I got my monitor calibrated with Spyder2 express. I am thinking of getting the Spyder2 suite from Ebay but the seller refuse to ship outside of the US. So it may be a no no in that direction for me.

I have deleted the monitor's own profile and is now using the Spyder2's profile. Here in M'sia we get some really cheap paper from unknown suppliers.

Now Let me google how to convert the Spyder's profile to a Printer's profile. Never knew such things can be such a pain :(

PeterD
14th August 2008, 03:40 AM
Heavy stuff...Ok..I got my monitor calibrated with Spyder2 express. I am thinking of getting the Spyder2 suite from Ebay but the seller refuse to ship outside of the US. So it may be a no no in that direction for me.

I have deleted the monitor's own profile and is now using the Spyder2's profile. Here in M'sia we get some really cheap paper from unknown suppliers.

Now Let me google how to convert the Spyder's profile to a Printer's profile. Never knew such things can be such a pain :(

Blu

You should have now done the hard bit.

I could not see the profile tab description in the manual I downloaded but provided your application is using the monitor profile then this should provide a guide on what to do.

When you select print. click the preferences button. Set to Application managed colours. Then set your paper type and away you go.

Let me know if this is useful or not. I shall try and help you further if necessary.

Good luck.

Peter

donmcmahan
7th December 2008, 09:45 PM
Dear Peter,

I know what you mean about Epson printers having clogging problems. It affected my original Stylus Phot 750. I am very happy to report no ink clogging problems with my R2400 which includes 3 months of being turned off while I was sick recently. I have to be honest I was more than a little worried when I turned it on after such a long break for that very reason. I am using Epson inks but there is 1 thing that really frustrates me with the R2400 though. If I have 2 cartridges that are getting low which are reaported via the Status monitor. Then if I change just one because I know the other has more reliable life left in it. The result is that the remaining low one no longer reports the ink level and gives a solid red light on the printer when the ink carraige returns to its normal position.

Must be another way Epson have thought to get owners changing cartridges early!!

Cheers

Chris
when you change a cart the printer very kindly pumps a bunch of ink thru the system to charge the print head with the new ink and also pumps an equivalent amount of ink out of the other carts as well, leaving that one that was very low, empty. best practice is to print until it stops and then change the empty one and the very low ones as well, just how low? you kind of have to figure that out by trial and error. great system. it is like you drive your car until it runs out of petrol then you buy a new petrol tank and a new oil sump as well

Fluffy
7th December 2008, 11:50 PM
Looking for a A3 printer led me to make a choice between the Epson and HP range ( I had already reviewed and discounted the Canon, Lexmark ranges). I have always been an Epson man so I admit I was quite biased at the outset. Despite this, I am going for the HP Photosmart Pro B9180gp as it will address all the above issues. The printer includes a calibration kit for the monitor and checks the type of paper loaded and applies the correct profile for the paper. This should ensure that the prints are accurate and are repeatable.

PeterD

I have that printer and am very happy with its output. It's done everything I asked it to do. I had a few issues at start up but they were easily worked out. It really is economical on ink, once you get over start up which uses more than you might expect. But then you have have to do a self calibration again unless you want to. I moved up to this printer from an HP 8750 and the difference was amazing.

One point to check: ink supply. My only source here is HP US. However they offer free overnight shipping on orders placed as late as 10PM (yes I get it by 9 the next morning) and fairly substantial discounts on the ink and paper that vary based on your purchase level. I've been at 15% for the last few years, which is far better than any dealer offers on HP printing products. I love that they happily undercut their own dealers.

Steve

PeterD
8th December 2008, 02:08 AM
I have that printer and am very happy with its output. It's done everything I asked it to do. I had a few issues at start up but they were easily worked out. It really is economical on ink, once you get over start up which uses more than you might expect. But then you have have to do a self calibration again unless you want to. I moved up to this printer from an HP 8750 and the difference was amazing.

One point to check: ink supply. My only source here is HP US. However they offer free overnight shipping on orders placed as late as 10PM (yes I get it by 9 the next morning) and fairly substantial discounts on the ink and paper that vary based on your purchase level. I've been at 15% for the last few years, which is far better than any dealer offers on HP printing products. I love that they happily undercut their own dealers.

Steve

Steve,

I did purchase the Hp Printer and have to say that it has given me everything I expected - and more. Colour management is a problem in the past as is clogged nozzles, banded printouts etc etc. Its built to last and reliable.

Peter