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DerekW
29th December 2007, 09:44 AM
To bring you awareness of the Back focus thread on the US Fourthirds forum at

http://www.fourthirdsphoto.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=20049

Has any one detected this problem with European sourced cameras (might be from a later manufacturing batch than cameras bought in Japan and the US).

theMusicMan
29th December 2007, 10:13 AM
That's an interesting thread, I may time to have a go at some similar tests later today. If I do, I shall post the comparative results from my E-510 and E-3...

Very curious indeed now.

art frames
29th December 2007, 10:24 AM
I have been following this story too.

With the 12-60 what I have noticed is that focus can be off at times but with another touch of the button it pops into better focus. I'm not too alarmed because I am still learning and may have a setting in the wrong place or something.

I also notice that two or three shots of the same subject in a two or three second series will be differently focussed and I pick the best.

But with every camera I've ever used I get either back or front focus and I haven't been blaming the camera. As my eyes are now as old as the rest of my body I'm not sure manual focus will be that much better :(

Would like to hear other experiences too.

theMusicMan
29th December 2007, 10:31 AM
While I think about it - and no, I don't consider this a major issue - when you focus on a subject using the center red autofocus point and then zoom all the way in to this image using image preview - the item that you focussed on is not in the center of the frame. On my E-3 it is slightly to the left of the center.

Have only checked this on the viewfinder and not by pixel count but it could be something to be alerted about. If the actual focus point is not directly under the red illuminated square - then slight out of focus will occur.

PeterD
29th December 2007, 10:51 AM
While I think about it - and no, I don't consider this a major issue - when you focus on a subject using the center red autofocus point and then zoom all the way in to this image using image preview - the item that you focussed on is not in the center of the frame. On my E-3 it is slightly to the left of the center.

Have only checked this on the viewfinder and not by pixel count but it could be something to be alerted about. If the actual focus point is not directly under the red illuminated square - then slight out of focus will occur.

There may be two issues at play here. The one mentioned above and the other being hysterisis. This latter point may address the two shot focussing to achieve focus. It may be that the first attempt at focus slightly overshoots the targeted focus and the second pulls it in. Its certainly an interesting point that should be considered by Oly. I mention this because I too have experienced this and thinking about the focussing speed improvement this might be a resulting side effect.
The beauty of this though is that both problems could be fixed in firmware updates for camera and lens. I would not be too surprised to see update to address it.
Its like everything else that is new, there may be things to improve performance which are only seen when sufficient quantities of cameras are out there. Even so, I do not think it is anything to worry about as long as it is investigated. Just think of those days when it was impossible to correct these sorts of issues without replaceing hardware!

Kind regards

PeterD

beardedwombat
29th December 2007, 11:01 AM
Very interesting. My E-3 also has the focussed point slightly to the left when taken with the VF but central when taken with LV. The difference is noticeable even handheld. I also find differences in white balance with consecutive shots as mentioned in the thread. This requires further investigation and comparison with my 510.
Chris

DerekW
29th December 2007, 11:09 AM
I would feel a lot more comfortable if Olympus tech support would monitor at least one of the forums and respond to the issues.

In other techy forums there is often quite a bit of manufactures input.

PeterD
29th December 2007, 11:31 AM
I would feel a lot more comfortable if Olympus tech support would monitor at least one of the forums and respond to the issues.

In other techy forums there is often quite a bit of manufactures input.

Thats a very good point. This is afterall an Olympus sponsored site and is an obvious place fo them to get user feedback directly. The other side of the coin is its also an obvious place for Olymus to provide their comments to the right audience.

Perhaps Ian will take this up after the new year.

PeterD

theMusicMan
29th December 2007, 11:54 AM
I would feel a lot more comfortable if Olympus tech support would monitor at least one of the forums and respond to the issues.

In other techy forums there is often quite a bit of manufactures input.
When I was at the recent press launch for the E-3 in London one of the folks there was (I think) a Sales Director for Olympus UK. He was discussing this site with us and did mention that he thought it a great idea that Olympus use it in part to gauge feedback etc. Also, it's worth pointing out that the site belongs to Olympus... Ian manages it on their behalf, so I guess they do have a presence here already.

It would be very nice to see this evolve such that we have some representation from Olympus actually visible here though. We shall see.

Wreckdiver
29th December 2007, 02:43 PM
I tried the focusing tests with my 50mm f2 macro and 12-60mm lenses, both at widest apertures and the subject positioned at the closest focusing distance. Focusing set to S-AF using the centre point only and using the viewfinder - not LV.

The focussing was absolutely spot on with both lenses. I did find that, like others here, when zooming in on the resultant shots the target mark was drifting to the left as I zoomed in, which would mean that the camera's centre point was slightly off to the right.

Steve

Wreckdiver
29th December 2007, 03:10 PM
... and just tried focusing with LV and centering is spot on - as others have found.

Steve

andym
29th December 2007, 04:27 PM
I've been following the thread on Four Thirds Photo for a few days now.I did some tests last night and I do feel something is amiss.
I'm afraid that I have deleted my results now but what I did was focus on a page of a book angled away from me at 45 degrees using the 12-60mm zoomed in to 60mm and at F4.I used the auto focus on a specific letter set with single point small.The result was a consistant forward focus on the letter before.
Today I tried my 50-200mm and got some very strange results some images very sharp and some way off even when the camera told me it was focused.
I then tried my E1 with the 50-200 and seemed to also get the same results,very strange.
On the E1 I was used to using a doulble press of the shutter to get good focus but hoped the E3 would be better.
I must admit I only shoot wide open if I feel the conditions need it and normally shoot at about F 5.6-7.1 and therefore the problem is less due to DOF.
When I get time I may try the close up test on the E1.
I does seem that there is an issue here.I notice some users on the other site have raised it with Olympus.Lets hope it can be cured with a firmware fix.

Ps forgot to mention all my shots with the 12-60 were on a tripod with the IS turned off and my shots with the 50-200 were hand held with IS on and all above 500th of a second.,

ianjip
29th December 2007, 06:53 PM
This is quite scary conversation thread, as yet I haven't put an order in for the E3, I intended to wait until I could hold one in my hands as I find the feel and weight of any camera is important. (If it feels right it is right.)

From the conversation thread I see the problem of focus has not been addressed since the E1. However if this only shows up in LV mode then I don't see it as a real problem or is it ?

I am quite happy to be corrected.

ian

DerekW
31st December 2007, 10:47 AM
Apart from there being a possible problem with the camera - the biggest problem is that E3 cameras are getting their biggest outing during this long weekend when users have time to try out the camera and make posts on various forums and there is no response from Olympus as they are shut down for the holiday period.

I hope that Olympus do not have a DC10 situation on their hands.

The launch of the E3 appeared to be internet led, I hope it's premature death is not similarly internet led.

For the record - I am so far very pleased with my E3, 12 to 60mm and an old 50-200mm, however I am using mainly the single small centre focussing point.

andym
31st December 2007, 11:24 AM
Derek

Yes I agree with you even if there is a slight issue I does not detract from using the E3.Using lower F stops(but not too low) increases the depth of field.Also using ones eyes and not relying on the auto focus all the time(every camera I have had seems to have the same issue).
As I said before I use sometimes the double push of the shutter to get a good focus.It's all about the person controling the camera and not the other way round.

theMusicMan
31st December 2007, 12:32 PM
Personally I don't think this is anything that a firmware upgrade won't fix.

art frames
2nd January 2008, 10:06 AM
To those interested there is another thread at the same website which seems informative/interested in the variability issues ( http://www.fourthirdsphoto.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=20280 ).

This seems to point to some interesting things to look at in the EXIF data which I shall try.

On some pictures yesterday of friends in a wood I had some shots of slightly OOF people (OK for snaps but just not quite sharp and certainly poor for me). Prior to IS on the E3 I'd have said that is typical of using the 50-200 handheld on the E1. But on closer look there are pin sharp branches at the very edge of the frame - miles away from the focus point (but in a forward or backward plane of the subject).

I am getting more concerned now with the number of dodgy shots and may start posting them. Like previous posters I trust this is easy to fix and that Olympus start to get involved here with us on these issues.

:( Peter

art frames
2nd January 2008, 10:57 AM
As I said above this seems a good example to show why I am getting frustrated. It isn't a picture I would have wanted as I was there for the walk and possibly birds! But if you look at the picture the centre (normal size) focus point was on David's head.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/David_in_wood_-_focus_issue.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1745)

It was only F3.5 on a long lens at 1/125 so I am not expecting too much!

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/David_in_wood_-_focus_point.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1746)

But over at the edge here we seem to be able to get sharper!

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/David_in_wood_-_edge.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1744)

Exif -for those that like to know.
Camera model: E-3
Date/Time: 2008:01:01 13:18:49
Flash used: No
Focal length: 76.0mm
Exposure time: 0.0080 s (1/125)
Aperture: f/3.5
ISO equiv.: 800
Whitebalance: Auto
Metering Mode: matrix
Exposure: aperture priority (semi-auto)

Very happy to be corrected if I am doing something very wrong. I personally feel that the focus goes very quickly and stops nearly there. Sometimes it is spot on. But not this time or for the next two shots which were of my friends wife and my wife in the same place.

I could post good ones but I feel it is time to post the duff ones where we haven't done anything wrong. :(

Peter

andym
2nd January 2008, 11:08 AM
Peter

This is exactly what I have.I have been following the two threads on Fourthirds photo and noted that some people have passed it Olympus and they even seem to acknowledge there is an issue(if I read correctly).

Let hope it can be fixed quickly and wih a firmware fix.

Other wise its back to the E1.

art frames
2nd January 2008, 11:33 AM
Andy

I am also hoping that other people are speaking to Olympus from the posts on other forums (US and Japan - if they are doing what they appear to be saying). That is my usual approach - to wait and see.

But it frustrates me each time I look at my latest shots now and I want to improve things before I get negative about the camera.

I am conscious that Ian hasn't yet posted on this issue yet either on his own experiences or suggestions and might be able to get Olympus involved through Olympus UK. And this may make the thread visible again.

sorry that you are getting dodgy shots too.

Peter

DerekW
2nd January 2008, 02:16 PM
Later on today when my phone is sorted I will be ringing the Olympus Tech Sup[port line
00800 67 10 83 00

and ask them if they are aware of these discussions.

Perhaps you would like to do it as well to emphasize our concern.

PeterD
2nd January 2008, 03:59 PM
Later on today when my phone is sorted I will be ringing the Olympus Tech Sup[port line
00800 67 10 83 00

and ask them if they are aware of these discussions.

Perhaps you would like to do it as well to emphasize our concern.

Derek

I tried to do just that for over 1hour on Monday but did not get through. I shall try again though. There is nothing so irratating as a message that says that everyone is busy, your call is important to us, your call is in a queue and will be answered in the order that it is received. At least some companies have got the message and include an idea as to where you are in the queue.

Kind regards

PeterD

PeterD
2nd January 2008, 04:13 PM
Derek,

I have just managed to get through to Tech Support and I must say I am horrified at the response I received.

I asked if he was aware of this website which he said he was. I asked if anyone was monitoring the site as there were a couple of issues that had been raised which should get a response from Olympus. H told me that the people monitoring the site were not their right now. He suggested that I send an e-mail to support to get someone to look at the threads on the website to give a response. This I shall do but I am amazed that I have to go to these lengths.

I shall let you know what feedback I get if it is not sent directly to the website.

Kind regards

PeterD

DerekW
2nd January 2008, 04:52 PM
Having got my phone working I have just come off the phone from the Olympus Tech support desk, the E3 specialist is out at the moment testing the E3 in Siberia. However I did tell the person I spoke with about this forum and the issues that are being discussed and he looked at the forum while I was on the phone and the start of this thread and the reference to the US forum. He said he would alert his colleague to the issues being discussed when he returns to the office.

I asked if they could get an Olympus rep answering questions on the forum, however you have issues of UK Oly versus European Oly versus US Oly versus corporate Oly in Japan as to who should speak on behalf of the company (this is a perfectly understandable situation in large international companies)

I think that Olympus are now aware of the "webstorm" and should be able to determine how to handle the situation.

art frames
2nd January 2008, 05:14 PM
I have just spoken to Digital Depot who have had no previous customer issues or reports and are going to come to this site have a look at these threads too. (they weren't aware Olympus sponsored this site and usually monitor dp review! - they said) They have logged my issue and will await any steer from technical support that I can get.

I am not close enough to go and show them or I would. I have bought enough from them to know they are pretty good about anything like this.

Peter

theMusicMan
2nd January 2008, 05:17 PM
OK, so we may have identified and be suffering with an issue which we all hope can be sorted by a firmware upgrade, but the more people from Olympus themselves, and the more representatives from suppliers we can attract here can only be a good thing.

Let's hope we get some response and resolution to this concern.

andym
2nd January 2008, 05:20 PM
Just a quick test done this afternoon.All taken on a tripod using RM-1 remote control.Refocus between each shot ie camera set to AF+MF and adjusted.
Lens=50-200 at 200mm
See exif for details

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P1027136.JPG (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1754)


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P1027135.JPG (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1753)


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P1027134.JPG (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1752)


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P1027133.JPG (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1751)


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P1027132.JPG (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1750)


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P1027131.JPG (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1749)


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P1027130.JPG (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1748)


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P1027129.JPG (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1747)

All croped not other post processing.Taken in large super fine.

I'll let you make you own assesment.

If I get time tomorrow i'll try it with the E1

PeterD
2nd January 2008, 05:38 PM
OK, so we may have identified and be suffering with an issue which we all hope can be sorted by a firmware upgrade, but the more people from Olympus themselves, and the more representatives from suppliers we can attract here can only be a good thing.

Let's hope we get some response and resolution to this concern.

Copy of e-mail sent to Oly 02/01/2008 @1627

################################
Hello,
Confirming my telecon. Please find below a link to the E systems website and the focus problem.

http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3544&posted=1#post3544

The next link deals with the HLD-4 issues

http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3519#post3519

As I have said on the telephone, I am very surprised that we have not had any advice from technical support on these matters. Whilst the same issues are being raised on other sites, this one is specifically for E systems owners and is sponsored by Olympus. Please do not let confidence in your new E3 flagship wain. Please reply.

Kind regards

PeterD

#########################

I hope we soon get a fix which may be simple in the case of the focussing but may not be so in the case of the HLD-4.

PeterD

art frames
2nd January 2008, 08:40 PM
Having spent my working life in PR and marketing I am very interested in how this issue is managed from here on in.

Before today I had begun to question my own competence and to look for things I wasn't doing right with my E3 (this is normal behaviour following a major purchase). I was even questioning whether shooting at F3.5 in low light was beyond the system. I have looked at EXIF data for hours on end to spot my faults which is something I had never done before (nor have I had to).

Quite by accident I opened the E3 brochure instead of the pdf manual - when I tried to check a setting. It changed my attitude.

The sales brochure says. "The E-3ís AF system works in the blink of an eye to ensure you never miss a shot. When combined with the ZUIKO DIGITAL SWD ED12-60mm, the E-3ís AF technology works at speeds unmatched by any other camera in the world. An 11-point full-twin cross AF sensor system produces tack sharp images. Dual sensing arrays on horizontal and vertical axes are arranged in a unique half pitch shifted pattern for ultimate precision. Critical auto focus functions are faster: processing speed, object capturing, and tracking performance. A dedicated data processing engine and a new AF algorithm rapidly handles sensor information. New pixel multiplication technologies gives the E-3 an AF luminescence range of -2 to 19EV for better low light shooting."

This is the Olympus promise and what I am led to expect for my money. But my reality is very far from that. I have resorted to one central focus point (my initial experience of the full 11-point array was a complete nightmare) and even now I don't get anything like tack-sharp shots. I do miss shots. I also don't know how sharp it is until I see them on screen. So I am getting far less than the promise.

By setting up this group Olympus had the ability to get our experiences and real world insight and I am sure we would all give it freely.

Once they had that then they also have a much bigger database of all of the registered E3 users to communicate with. I expect regular communication nowadays. So please Olympus tell us what we are doing (right and wrong), send us facts and case studies on where and when to use different settings etc etc. Or if there is a problem then do a more fundamental survey and/or recall in a controlled way.

As a PR professional I am staggered that they were not monitoring this site and working hard to promote it's use. I would also expect them to monitor every single independent website on an hour-by-hour basis and for any latent issues to be circulated to key personnel. There are huge numbers of specialist agencies that do that as a service to buy in. There is no credible argument against knowing as much as you can about what users think and believe. And acting on it.

But I also have a sinking feeling that the level of communication that accompanied the 'free' offers is their norm - in which case I expect a long silence, wild rumours and a wash of speculation followed by a specially printed letter from someone a long way away.

I'm saddened by this.

Peter

DerekC
2nd January 2008, 09:24 PM
I too have had some focussing issues with my E-3.
At the weekend I went to watch a Rally at Croft Circuit taking both E-3 & E-510 The results I was getting were not pleasing me, so settings were check switching to single point AF making sure the shutter speed and iso were set correct. Still getting less than sharp images. I swopped to the E-510 and the images were sharper. I'm not saying every image was bad but not the results I was expecting. The E-510 was set to the same iso and shutter speed. It wasn't as if I had picked a spot where the cars were at high speeds if fact many shots were at a hairpin. The camera was indicating in focus I tried between AF-C AF-S with similar results. I came away thinking what had I done wrong? Had my money been well spent when the results from the E-510 were better?

Derek C

Nick Temple-Fry
3rd January 2008, 01:35 AM
With respect to all those who have posted here already can I say I am yet to be convinced of the problem.

Whilst admitting that proving a negative is difficult (and maybe only helps to refine the parameters of the problem) can I share a test I did tonight.

Test was done with E-3 + 50-200, tripod mounted with 3-sec anti-shake, IS was off. Focus through viewfinder. Single point S-AF.

Target was a saw blade mounted first in front of a bookcase of CDs, and then projecting from it. Probably some of the worst targets for this kind of AF.

Processed in master, uncropped images resized in irfanview, crop'd images are from original and are at 100%

This shows the saw blade in front of cds, focus just near the base of the teeth (bladeside).

http://www.temple-fry.co.uk/oddsandsods/teethinfrontoffaces.jpg

This is a crop of the same photo

http://www.temple-fry.co.uk/oddsandsods/cropteethinfrontoffaces.jpg

Camera moved slightly to focus on FA of faces

http://www.temple-fry.co.uk/oddsandsods/faofblacksmallfaces.jpg

Crop of same photo

http://www.temple-fry.co.uk/oddsandsods/faofblacksmallfacescrop.jpg

All the above required the focus sentitivity to be set to small, as any impingement of the boundary between blade and CD (within the centre circle) resulted in focus on the more contrasty CD cover (which is what we would expect).

This next shot is aimed at the tip of the 2'nd from last tooth not obscured by the CD covers

http://www.temple-fry.co.uk/oddsandsods/raisedtooth.jpg

And this is the crop, you can see a slight yellow marking on the tooth and it is marginally bending upwards.

http://www.temple-fry.co.uk/oddsandsods/raisedtoothcrop.jpg

In the last image we can see both the preceding and following tooth going out of focus. (the last image was shot with sensitivity normal)

If we do have a problem then I suspect it is a subtle one and its perception may be influenced by the learning curve on a much more complicated AF system

Dick Bowman
3rd January 2008, 08:09 AM
I can't help feeling that there are three (maybe more) separate issues here, and that certainly the long thread over at four-thirds is over-muddled.

Anyhow...

[0] It would be good for Olympus to tell us in more detail how the autofocus software is actually supposed to work (I'm quite sure that the software developers worked from something more detailed than we find in the E-3 user manual).

[1] Perhaps there is a generic problem which is coming to light as more cameras in the hands of more people take more pictures than there were in the E-3 development cycle.

[2] Perhaps there is sample variation, which means that some of the cameras out there have faulty AF. Having had one E-3 with a faulty LCD, and another that locks up in sequential shooting (and has shown dubious white balance) - I'm not convinced that Olympus has quality consistency under control at this time.

theMusicMan
3rd January 2008, 08:14 AM
Hey Dick

You mentioned you had two faulty E-3's - did you manage to get these changed at the store you purchased them from? Or did you have to send them back to Oly each time? Am curious...

art frames
3rd January 2008, 09:19 AM
I can't help feeling that there are three (maybe more) separate issues here, and that certainly the long thread over at four-thirds is over-muddled.

Anyhow...

[0] It would be good for Olympus to tell us in more detail how the autofocus software is actually supposed to work (I'm quite sure that the software developers worked from something more detailed than we find in the E-3 user manual).

[1] Perhaps there is a generic problem which is coming to light as more cameras in the hands of more people take more pictures than there were in the E-3 development cycle.

[2] Perhaps there is sample variation, which means that some of the cameras out there have faulty AF. Having had one E-3 with a faulty LCD, and another that locks up in sequential shooting (and has shown dubious white balance) - I'm not convinced that Olympus has quality consistency under control at this time.

A good clear summary from Dick. I agree we have a number of different factors at play and that it is difficult to prove an intermittent 'problem'. All I maintain is for every picture I have posted on here that people have said is 'great' I have the same picture taken a few seconds before or after that is out of focus (gasps of unbelief.:o). My camera and I take good pictures and poor pictures. (I am part of the equation.:()

Nick - a good test but - I could get it to take pictures of a saw in front of a slightly different collection of CDs. But what does it prove when I know that it has struggled to take pictures of people and animals and teasels and leaves and berries....etc (that is all that matters to me at the moment sad though I am :))

I personally believe we have a 'pure perfect sound for ever from Philips' moment (the invention of the compact disc - for younger viewers) going on.
In short, the expectations and claims don't match the reality. I am aware that my expectations of the camera have not been met, sad but true. I was swept along by the hype.

In time three things will happen.

1. My usage of the camera will change to reduce the ratio of bad to good pictures. (I have already switched off a number of features and will look to others). Plus someone might explain how the focus should work.
2. The designers will change their product (because they do lose control as it moves into volume production) so that all of the early failures are engineered out.
3. I will swap out a poor version if it turns out to be variability.

In the meantime I hope Olympus will help tell me which it is.

'nuff said, I think

Peter

PeterD
3rd January 2008, 09:55 AM
A good clear summary from Dick. I agree we have a number of different factors at play and that it is difficult to prove an intermittent 'problem'. All I maintain is for every picture I have posted on here that people have said is 'great' I have the same picture taken a few seconds before or after that is out of focus (gasps of unbelief.:o). My camera and I take good pictures and poor pictures. (I am part of the equation.:()

Nick - a good test but - I could get it to take pictures of a saw in front of a slightly different collection of CDs. But what does it prove when I know that it has struggled to take pictures of people and animals and teasels and leaves and berries....etc (that is all that matters to me at the moment sad though I am :))

I personally believe we have a 'pure perfect sound for ever from Philips' moment (the invention of the compact disc - for younger viewers) going on.
In short, the expectations and claims don't match the reality. I am aware that my expectations of the camera have not been met, sad but true. I was swept along by the hype.

In time three things will happen.

1. My usage of the camera will change to reduce the ratio of bad to good pictures. (I have already switched off a number of features and will look to others). Plus someone might explain how the focus should work.
2. The designers will change their product (because they do lose control as it moves into volume production) so that all of the early failures are engineered out.
3. I will swap out a poor version if it turns out to be variability.

In the meantime I hope Olympus will help tell me which it is.

'nuff said, I think

Peter

I have had a feeling that mechanical hysteresis is playing a major factor here which would account for variable (lets keep it that loose) focus.

What is absolutely clear is that Oly cannot let this run on for much longer as a simple to fix issue (and I think this to be the case) gets legs and causes a great deal of damage to a very good marketing strategy and basically superb camera.

PeterD

andym
3rd January 2008, 10:56 AM
Well said Peter/PeterD

Will also be very interested what John Foster thinks when he does his review on Biofos.He seems to be registered here but does not post so assumes he monitors this site.

Dick Bowman
3rd January 2008, 02:47 PM
Hey Dick

You mentioned you had two faulty E-3's - did you manage to get these changed at the store you purchased them from? Or did you have to send them back to Oly each time? Am curious...

The first was swapped out by the shop (they got one from another branch that had one in stock).

I'm still trying to get the other sorted out - it's been impacted by the Christmas/New Year holiday situation. I'm trying to get it done via the shop - partly because that's the "right" thing to do, partly because reaching somebody inside Olympus to have a conversation with is so difficult. Feeling that as this is a fault that's emerged within the first couple of weeks (and it's intermittent) there has to be a better solution than posting it off for repair and hoping.

jdal
3rd January 2008, 03:34 PM
.... Feeling that as this is a fault that's emerged within the first couple of weeks (and it's intermittent) there has to be a better solution than posting it off for repair and hoping.

I think if I were in your shoes I'd be asking for my money back. I don't think you're legally entitled, but it's worth a shot. You could then either (a) buy another elsewhere now or (b) buy another elswhere when this focus issue and maybe even that intermittent lockup problem(which I've seen people mention elsewhere) are fixed.

art frames
3rd January 2008, 03:55 PM
After a few more tests I have had a very long conversation with the chaps on the technical help-desk. I have lots more to test out now as a result. They want me to test the same lens set-up with the E1 and E500 and try to eliminate as much as possible.

They were wanting me to try as many old lenses as possible to try and eliminate lens issues and lens-camera comms issues. I may have read between the lines but they seemed happiest for me to try primes and seemed to doubt the new 12-60 or my 50-200 (they seemed happier when I assured them it was the old version) but said a 14-54 would be good (don't have one).

They said if I get into a situation where the lens isn't communicating with the body and holding focus quickly check the firmware menu and see what it says for the lens. If it cannot give you a version then that is important to the diagnosis.

Thinking about primes got me thinking as I have mostly macro lenses in fixed focal lengths. So I have had a fun few minutes with a macro and my cat (who hates cameras)

As a result I am posting a nice sharp picture (I accept that it could have been more focussed on the eye but it is still pretty fair).

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/cat-tamron.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1761)

It is with my 25 year old Tamron 90mm macro one of the finest lenses I have ever bought. Neatly also bypassing AF and showing I can take OK shots. Manual focus is a bit of a fiddle but it stopped me thinking bad thoughts about the camera. *xmashat04

best wishes to all. I'll report on any findings as I go.

Peter

PeterD
3rd January 2008, 05:07 PM
Peter,

Thanks for moving this on with Oly. Thanks to your cat too. I do not know why he hates cameras as he seems quite photogenic.

What has Tech support said regarding actions that they are taking? Whilst you are carrying out tests to report back, I would have thought that they too could have mirrored these tests and also enlisted the support of the software/hardware designers. Or am I misreading you posting?

Kind regards

PeterD

theMusicMan
3rd January 2008, 05:47 PM
D'ya know what...? Not sure if this is in fact a possibility but I am thinking it might be a good idea if we [us here] could all do the very same test with our E-3's, using the same lenses, on the same subject - and post the results on the site here to compare...??

Is this a possibility and thus achievable? Is it worth considering? Could we prove/disprove anything by so doing?

Thoughts...

Invicta
3rd January 2008, 06:25 PM
D'ya know what...? Not sure if this is in fact a possibility but I am thinking it might be a good idea if we [us here] could all do the very same test with our E-3's, using the same lenses, on the same subject - and post the results on the site here to compare...??

Is this a possibility and thus achievable? Is it worth considering? Could we prove/disprove anything by so doing?

Thoughts...

I would be happy to try and help as I am a bit puzzled as to the actual problem being described.

Is this an issue using All target AF mode or Single target AF mode? I.e. in the All target AF mode is the focus in the picture on a different AF target to that displayed in the view finder or is the Single target AF mode not focusing correctly or something else entirely?

If somebody can explian the test to use I will try it out and post the result from my E-3.

theMusicMan
3rd January 2008, 06:34 PM
Well, if we are to do a consistent test, then we all need to take a shot of the same thing. Anyone have a camera focus test sheet perhaps in PDF format that we could all print out and shoot the with focus on exactly the same point...?

OK, it might be printed at different quality on different printers, but at least we'd have the same thing to photograph and as it seems to be focus that's the concern here, printing and other inconsistencies would not necessarily matter.

DerekW
3rd January 2008, 06:48 PM
You could try this one - it was used by the US forum people

http://focustestchart.com/focus21.pdf

Invicta
3rd January 2008, 08:17 PM
You could try this one - it was used by the US forum people

http://focustestchart.com/focus21.pdf

Followed the instructions as above:

E-3 + SWD 12-60mm
Firmware: body 1.0 lens 1.0

No obvious signs of front or back focus issues. Worst case was at extreme wide of 12 mm F2.8:


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/541/12mm.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1762)

Wreckdiver
3rd January 2008, 09:01 PM
Here's my test using SWD 12-60mm lens at 60mm, f/4, camera at 45 degrees.

How do you show a photo here? if you click on the Picture icon you get asked for a web URL :confused: - so attached as a thumbnail instead as that seemed the only option.

Steve

Invicta
3rd January 2008, 09:07 PM
Here's my test using SWD 12-60mm lens at 60mm, f/4, camera at 45 degrees.

How do you show a photo here? if you click on the Picture icon you get asked for a web URL :confused: - so attached as a thumbnail instead as that seemed the only option.

Steve

Hi Steve

Goto Gallery, select "Upload Photos" over on the top right-hand side, for items like this I use a personal album and for "real" photos I add them into the appropriate member gallery. Then browse to the file and press the upload/submit button, at the next screen confirm the upload. It should then upload and give you the URL to paste into a forum post.

Wreckdiver
3rd January 2008, 09:13 PM
Hi Steve

Goto Gallery, select "Upload Photos" over on the top right-hand side, for items like this I use a personal album and for "real" photos I add them into the appropriate member gallery. Then browse to the file and press the upload/submit button, at the next screen confirm the upload. It should then upload and give you the URL to paste into a forum post.

OK, but I have the files on my PC, so they don't have a URL.

Steve

Invicta
3rd January 2008, 09:18 PM
OK, but I have the files on my PC, so they don't have a URL.

Steve

Once the upload is complete the photo is stored on the server running this web site. You can click on any photo in the Gallery and it will display the photo and info about the photo including a section entitled:

Copy code below to display original image in forum post:

In this there is URL that will start with

[URL=

Just paste this into a post and the picture will then be displayed.

art frames
3rd January 2008, 11:05 PM
Peter,

Thanks for moving this on with Oly. Thanks to your cat too. I do not know why he hates cameras as he seems quite photogenic.

What has Tech support said regarding actions that they are taking? Whilst you are carrying out tests to report back, I would have thought that they too could have mirrored these tests and also enlisted the support of the software/hardware designers. Or am I misreading you posting?

Kind regards

PeterD

I would suggest if you have a problem of variable focus with your E3 you should each talk to Oly service. Their line to me was (to be expected) that I may have a faulty camera or lens or system which needed to be diagnosed (I have a new lens and a new camera). I think they were in Germany so we occasionally needed to speak slowly and precisely but they got the issue OK. They treated me as a one off case not part of (maybe) a bigger situation.

At the moment, if they are seeing a bigger picture these guys were not saying so. I don't get any feeling of them testing anything themselves yet.

If I could diagnose which item was at fault and under what conditions then we will talk more in the next few days. They talked about me putting it into repair. But in all probability I would go back to Digital Depot and seek an exchange very strongly.

Much as I am grateful for the support of you each performing tests. If you don't think you get the problem then what would you be looking for? Mind you if one reviewer gets it then the crap will fly.

best wishes

Peter

Wreckdiver
3rd January 2008, 11:11 PM
Once the upload is complete the photo is stored on the server running this web site. You can click on any photo in the Gallery and it will display the photo and info about the photo including a section entitled:



In this there is URL that will start with

[URL=

Just paste this into a post and the picture will then be displayed.

Thanks :)

Steve

PeterD
4th January 2008, 12:34 AM
I would suggest if you have a problem of variable focus with your E3 you should each talk to Oly service. Their line to me was (to be expected) that I may have a faulty camera or lens or system which needed to be diagnosed (I have a new lens and a new camera). I think they were in Germany so we occasionally needed to speak slowly and precisely but they got the issue OK. They treated me as a one off case not part of (maybe) a bigger situation.

At the moment, if they are seeing a bigger picture these guys were not saying so. I don't get any feeling of them testing anything themselves yet.

If I could diagnose which item was at fault and under what conditions then we will talk more in the next few days. They talked about me putting it into repair. But in all probability I would go back to Digital Depot and seek an exchange very strongly.

Much as I am grateful for the support of you each performing tests. If you don't think you get the problem then what would you be looking for? Mind you if one reviewer gets it then the crap will fly.

best wishes

Peter

Peter,

You probably know this already and hence your reluctance to send the equipment for repair. As I understand it, one of the last things you do is send a brand new item for repair. Doing so can affect your rights to recover your money or get a replacement.

Incidentally, I still have not yet received an acknowledgement for the e-mail I sent yesterday. This is pretty rude as it was at their request I sent it in the first place. I shall be speaking to Oly UK tomorrow to sound them out.

The article with the focus test description made very good reading. I confess that I had not fully appreciated the operation of AF and for this reason at least I would recommend people read it. Not knowing how the Oly system is actually implemented makes me cautious in declaring a clean bill of health or otherwise. I personnally cannot use small centre point af as I have found it impractical hand held and long focal lengths. Thats why I want to find out more of the Oly system.

Kind regards

PeterD

PeterD
4th January 2008, 07:15 AM
Well I have spent a large proportion of tonight going over the issues I perceived with my camera and have come to the conclusion that the camera appears to be OK and the reasons for MY problems are largely down to me:(

Correct handling of the camera
Its like driving, you get into bad habits and do not realise it! The E3 is considerably heavier than the E500 which is my previous camera. This makes the way in which you support the body/lens extremely important. I got into the bad habit of supporting the camera with the left hand, to the side of the lens with my thumb only supporting the bottom. When I corrected this, the test images came out much sharper.:o. Obvious isn't it!

Inappropriate choice of AF Mode
I had been using S-AF as standard for all my shooting. This is fine for portraits and landscapes but absolutely not for wild life where C-AF is more appropriate. I shall satisfy myself of this later today.

Incorrect selection of AF Targets
Again, being lazy, I had opted to use the 'All Target AF Mode'. The effect of this was to let the AF automatically select the highest contrast target to focus on which was not always on the subject I wished to focus on! I shall try using the 'Single target' mode later today. This should prove far easier than previously now that I ave sorted out the way in which the camera is held by me.

I am very grateful for the link to the AF testing that was posted on this thread. It has allowed me to sort out the issues by informing me of the AF operation and allowing me to test the operation of the camera.

Whilst its embarrassing to admit to the faults I have found in the way I have been using the camera, I hope it may help others. There probably are some faulty cameras out there as is the norm when a new model is launched. But in my case the fault appears to be with me.

Kind regards

PeterD

ianc
4th January 2008, 09:10 AM
I have a feeling that some of the problems come from having the AF sensitivity set to normal, p96 of the english instructions. If you have this set to normal the camera can focus on an area larger than the selected AF target, when on single AF point, setting this to small will limit the AF area to the selected target. When I first got the E3 I wasn't happy with the single target AF but changing the AF sensitivity to small solved my problems.

I hope this helps.
Ian C.

PeterD
4th January 2008, 09:32 AM
Ian,

Thanks. I did try that when I fist got the camera but it did not work well for me. I shall retry as the change in holding the camera has created far more stability.

Kind regards

PeterD

andym
4th January 2008, 10:17 AM
Shame there is no focus bracket on the E3 as was on the E500.This may have been useful in test for this issue.

DerekW
4th January 2008, 10:41 AM
Consensus and my experience indicates that setting the AF area to small, improves the reliability of focusing.

So it will be interesting to hear in what situations one should use the normal setting

andym
4th January 2008, 10:58 AM
Hmm

There was a very interesting thread on DPR about setting spot focus to normal and using loop selection.I will try this later when I return from work.Some people on that forum say it works but how setting loop with the camera set to center spot only affects it I dont know.

theMusicMan
4th January 2008, 11:11 AM
I shall certainly be trying this out later too, thanks for the pointer.

Ian
4th January 2008, 11:25 AM
Thats a very good point. This is afterall an Olympus sponsored site and is an obvious place fo them to get user feedback directly. The other side of the coin is its also an obvious place for Olymus to provide their comments to the right audience.

Perhaps Ian will take this up after the new year.

PeterD

Thanks Peter - my primary contacts at Olympus aren't back until next week, so I will be in touch with them then.

I have not experienced focus accuracy problems with my E-3 or any of the lenses I have. The fundamental design of an SLR does make it vulnerable to focuc accuracy issues because the AF sensors (or in the old days the focus screen) are not on the film/sensor plane. The focus needs to be calibrated. Cameras that have been miscalibrated in the factory or which have suffered a bad knock can focus out of true.

I gather that a lot of people have normally functioning cameras, so it seems that the problem is specific to a few only. I'm sure that Olympus makes sure that the cameras are properly calibrated at the factory.

Anyway - of course I'll raise the subject next week and let you know what the response is as soon as I get it :)

Ian

Nick Temple-Fry
4th January 2008, 01:08 PM
In an earlier thread I suggested that there is an opportunity for Olympus to record a masterclass on how this implementation of AF works. I contend that this thread and the threads on other forums make this a matter of urgency if Olympus is to manage the issue (and perhaps the reputation of the product - as these threads are eminently goolgeable from now to the end of space/time).

I suggest that whilst there may be some issues with individual cameras/lenses a lot of the concerns (particularly elsewhere) are due to the steep leap between the E-3 AF and earlier E series cameras.

The kind of format I would suggest (and this would work as a pdf presentation or an animation). Is a series of example images with the AF points overlaid, then a demonstration of how the camera selects the focus (showing the differing patterns of intensity on the sensors and perhaps any weighting applied to the evaluation).

(for example a subject in a woody background with well defined back/foreground branches - a typical birding shot and analagous to a lot of other situations)

This should show how it works with all points enabled, a single point, and how it focuses around a point with sensitivity set to normal/small.

No doubt better brains than mine could come up slicker formats.

It helps none of us who have invested in 4/3 for the premier camera in the range to develop a long internet tail of focussing issues if a proportion of them are based around our lack of understanding of how the system operates.

If others agree then perhaps Ian could feed this to his contacts in Olympus.

andym
4th January 2008, 01:50 PM
Hmm

There was a very interesting thread on DPR about setting spot focus to normal and using loop selection.I will try this later when I return from work.Some people on that forum say it works but how setting loop with the camera set to center spot only affects it I dont know.

I dont know if I've been lucky or if its just me hoping this would work but I did a few test this afternoon with the camera set up as above.All my issues have been focus inconsistancy at distance and I must say with the setup above I seem to be getting a lot better results ie about 90% of my pictures in focus.
When I get time(and weather) I will try when the light is better and also just with the focus set large and small and focus set up off.
I cant see how the set to loop would make any difference to focus on the center point but as we dont know how the focus works who knows!!

Obviously this will need a lot more testing.

alert_bri
4th January 2008, 02:24 PM
Hi Peter,

thank you very much for your update... following your findings, I have switched to C-AF (with single, small target, 'loop' does seem to de-sensitise auto-focus slightly which is good) and I'm finding (low light) focusing is not only highly accurate, but blindingly fast!

Kind Regards

Brian

Well I have spent a large proportion of tonight going over the issues I perceived with my camera and have come to the conclusion that the camera appears to be OK and the reasons for MY problems are largely down to me:(

Correct handling of the camera
Its like driving, you get into bad habits and do not realise it! The E3 is considerably heavier than the E500 which is my previous camera. This makes the way in which you support the body/lens extremely important. I got into the bad habit of supporting the camera with the left hand, to the side of the lens with my thumb only supporting the bottom. When I corrected this, the test images came out much sharper.:o. Obvious isn't it!

Inappropriate choice of AF Mode
I had been using S-AF as standard for all my shooting. This is fine for portraits and landscapes but absolutely not for wild life where C-AF is more appropriate. I shall satisfy myself of this later today.

Incorrect selection of AF Targets
Again, being lazy, I had opted to use the 'All Target AF Mode'. The effect of this was to let the AF automatically select the highest contrast target to focus on which was not always on the subject I wished to focus on! I shall try using the 'Single target' mode later today. This should prove far easier than previously now that I ave sorted out the way in which the camera is held by me.

I am very grateful for the link to the AF testing that was posted on this thread. It has allowed me to sort out the issues by informing me of the AF operation and allowing me to test the operation of the camera.

Whilst its embarrassing to admit to the faults I have found in the way I have been using the camera, I hope it may help others. There probably are some faulty cameras out there as is the norm when a new model is launched. But in my case the fault appears to be with me.

Kind regards

PeterD

PeterD
4th January 2008, 02:55 PM
Dear all,

I am now convinced my camera is OK. I set AF to single target and took the following photo at max focal length (300mm), hand held, IS1. The subject was partly obsured by shrubs in the foreground and reeds surrounding it. The camera was able to achieve focus under these difficult conditions using this AF method. Any thing else would have been hit or miss.
By the way, I have not applied PP nor have I cropped the image. I just wanted to show it as it came out of the camera.


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/Grey_Heron_AF_Test.jpg

Not brilliant but at least it demonstrates AF function.

Kind regards

PeterD

alert_bri
4th January 2008, 03:06 PM
Well Done, Peter... and thanks for honestly sharing your discovery.

Kind Regards

Brian

Invicta
4th January 2008, 05:16 PM
Dear all,

I am now convinced my camera is OK. I set AF to single target and took the following photo at max focal length (300mm), hand held, IS1. The subject was partly obsured by shrubs in the foreground and reeds surrounding it. The camera was able to achieve focus under these difficult conditions using this AF method. Any thing else would have been hit or miss.
By the way, I have not applied PP nor have I cropped the image. I just wanted to show it as it came out of the camera.


Not brilliant but at least it demonstrates AF function.

Kind regards

PeterD

Great news and a nice photo.

I am glad Oly and Ian set up this forum. Otherwise we would all be learning the hard way on our own. I had avoided trying to understand the details of the AF stuff until this thread so it has helped me understand it a bit better. Still have more to learn on this subject for sure.

theMusicMan
4th January 2008, 05:35 PM
Here here... I too echo these comments. Fab site.

art frames
4th January 2008, 09:25 PM
A lot of extra things to try here and I hope I can prove mine to be user or settings related too. but it will have to be at the weekend as I have been out all day and need to do it with more control than I can muster now.

Interestingly other sites are now pointing here and saying we are getting good support from Olympus EU. Amazing place for recycling rumour and half truths the internet. ;)

Good to have a support base of friends here :) .

Peter

Rockin Ronnie
4th January 2008, 09:51 PM
Very enlightening. I still plan to pick up an E-3 despite reports of "issues" real or "imagined".

I wonder, did the E-1 go through as much scrutiny?

Ron

PeterD
4th January 2008, 10:20 PM
A lot of extra things to try here and I hope I can prove mine to be user or settings related too. but it will have to be at the weekend as I have been out all day and need to do it with more control than I can muster now.

Interestingly other sites are now pointing here and saying we are getting good support from Olympus EU. Amazing place for recycling rumour and half truths the internet. ;)

Good to have a support base of friends here :) .

Peter

Hi Peter,

Hope you get to the bottom of your issues. I have to say that it was a great deal of relief when my camera passed the tests. I can manage the rest.

I am also surprised that other sites believe we have full support from Oly. They could not have read the posts too well. You may have seen Ian's post earlier where he says he will be talking to his contacts next week. One very good benefit from the struggles we have had would be a presence by Oly on this site. Now wouldn't that be a gem and excellant advertisment in following through with support on a site they sponsored.

Hope the weather holds out for you over the weekend. Good shooting

PeterD

DerekW
5th January 2008, 03:01 PM
I am currently straddling 3 or 4 forums

Have a look at

http://www.fourthirdsphoto.com/vbb/showthread.php?p=132417#post132417

and scroll to post 313 then follow that thru for the next few posts - including the sideturn to another thread.

It appears that are at least two versions of the E3 firmware out in the wild - it will be interesting to see if any UK /European cameras have the 0 level firmware.

PeterD
5th January 2008, 04:24 PM
I am currently straddling 3 or 4 forums

Have a look at

http://www.fourthirdsphoto.com/vbb/showthread.php?p=132417#post132417

and scroll to post 313 then follow that thru for the next few posts - including the sideturn to another thread.

It appears that are at least two versions of the E3 firmware out in the wild - it will be interesting to see if any UK /European cameras have the 0 level firmware.

Thanks Derek.

I have looked at the info you directed us to and have to say I am glad I am on this forum and not the other. Its quite depressing to see the scramble for 'helpful' hints and lack of experimentation etc. I suppose this is due to the mixed manufacturer base of the posters.
I note that the two firmware issues you mention are not properly understood except that there is a suggestion that it was to improve noise.
The best course of action is to wait until next week when Ian can get more info from his contacts in Oly. The worst course of action is to continue debating the issues without getting firm information.


Peter (Art Frames)

Did you manage to carry out any experiments today?

Kind regards

PeterD

P

art frames
5th January 2008, 05:13 PM
Peter (Art Frames)

Did you manage to carry out any experiments today?

Kind regards

PeterD

P

I have cameras and lenses everywhere!

So far using the very helpful focus test chart (thank you) I have identified that the 12-60 is probably going back as I have taken test shots at 12mm and 60mm on both the E3 and E500 it is front focussing very badly on both.

at 12mm it is focussing after a fashion at the bottom of the page (say 70/80mm on that chart) and at 60mm maybe at 20mm (on the chart).

But on the E3 the 50mm macro is spot on. And the 105mm macro not bad but front focussing a bit (maybe 10mm). Those are only on the E3 will try the E500 tomorrow. And repeat some of the 12-60 stuff.

But I am not convinced the E3 is being consistent. Certainly have had spot on with the 50-200 and also totally off... But I was working at a longer length (about 3 metres) and I found it needed to focus on the black line Not the focus here text which caused it problems!

I wish I had a well lit studio rather than a dark house as I struggle for light and the flash is not the best help with longer lengths.

So it explains a lot of the issues if the 12-60 is bad. It may also explain why the Olympus people were so dismissive of it on the phone and happier for me to use the 50mm macro. I have to say I also put my 14-45 kit lens from the E500 on the E3 and it was spot on. But it was always a good one.

But I have yet to prove the body as not involved to my satisfaction.

What a way to spend your leisure time. And a visit to Digital Depot to follow :(

art frames
5th January 2008, 05:47 PM
...And I have just taken a few pictures of my wife (E3 12/60) to test my findings and it is definitely focussing about 30-40 mm forward on a portrait shot (tip of the nose rather than eye) versus spot on with the (E3 14/45).

I may post them side by side as it is an interesting insight into the extra quality of light and colour you get from the 12/60 - focus would be a bonus.

So I'm feeling better on that score.

But the trouble shot I posted on this thread a few pages back was with the 50-200...before you all cheer too loudly! So that is tomorrow's job -reproducing that issue.

I hope that problem just comes down to the issues around S-AF and C-AF and operator error so I can get back to finding a photo to submit in the compo. :)

Peter

Wreckdiver
5th January 2008, 05:51 PM
Peter,

I would be interested to know how you set up your AF targets. Where you using Single target AF mode or Small-single target AF mode? My results (earlier back in this discussion) were taken with the later, but at minimum focusing range (a few centimetres) on the "focus here text" and the results seemed OK. I will repeat them tomorrow at greater distance but would like to know what settings you used with the 12-6mm lens so that I can replicate with my setup.

Regards,

Steve

art frames
5th January 2008, 05:58 PM
On a tripod - IS off

about 3 feet from the target at around 45 degrees

C-AF - Single target (small) CAF lock off

AF area pointer on, AF illumination on [...] setup - loop

I haven't tried from a few centimetres but I will do that.

best

Peter

PeterD
5th January 2008, 06:00 PM
...And I have just taken a few pictures of my wife (E3 12/60) to test my findings and it is definitely focussing about 30-40 mm forward on a portrait shot (tip of the nose rather than eye) versus spot on with the (E3 14/45).

I may post them side by side as it is an interesting insight into the extra quality of light and colour you get from the 12/60 - focus would be a bonus.

So I'm feeling better on that score.

But the trouble shot I posted on this thread a few pages back was with the 50-200...before you all cheer too loudly! So that is tomorrow's job -reproducing that issue.

I hope that problem just comes down to the issues around S-AF and C-AF and operator error so I can get back to finding a photo to submit in the compo. :)

Peter

Peter

Thanks for the update. You really have had to work hard to get where you are. It seems that you have a very real issue with the 12-60 lens and I believe you have done sufficient comparative tests to convince Oly. It will be very interesting to hear Oly's comments. I had not realised they recommended using the 50mm MACRO.
Hope you get a break tomorrow and do what you really WANT to do. You deserve it.

Kind regards

PeterD

art frames
5th January 2008, 06:06 PM
Well at closest focus distance it seems spot on. Was that what you expected?

Please help if you understand optics and I am doing something silly.

Peter :confused:

Invicta
5th January 2008, 06:07 PM
On a tripod - IS off

about 3 feet from the target at around 45 degrees

C-AF - Single target (small) CAF lock off

AF area pointer on, AF illumination on [...] setup - loop

I haven't tried from a few centimetres but I will do that.

best

Peter

It would be interesting to compare with the the chart closer, my test chart picture posted earlier was much closer to the camera. I will also try from about three away to see if it has any effect.

p.s. need a coffee first...

Wreckdiver
5th January 2008, 06:54 PM
I will do some tests tomorrow with all permuations of E-3, E-1, 50-200mm, 12-60mm SWD, 50mm macro and 14-54mm. Close focus, distance focus and all 3 target area settings.

Steve

PeterD
5th January 2008, 07:09 PM
Well at closest focus distance it seems spot on. Was that what you expected?

Please help if you understand optics and I am doing something silly.

Peter :confused:

Peter

I am a novice as far as optics are concerned. I only tested one lens as I had thought that the controlling factor would be in the camera body, after all, thats were the sensor is. Your results have given me more things to consider and I shall repeat the tests using other lenses. Thanks for your steer.

Incidentally, I used the 70-300mm lens on the AF test image (the heron). I shall look closer at the 12-60mm lens based on your results.

Kind regards

PeterD

art frames
6th January 2008, 03:10 PM
I have now spent 5 hours in my workshop repeating tests having first established a repeatable lighting source. I used a 500w tungsten flood about 1/2 metre from the chart giving it absolutely superb light.

The camera was set as per yesterday, on a tripod with the lens a metre from the chart at around 30 degrees.

I tried the whole set of lenses (apart from the 40-150 as this was inside it's minimum focus point). Each shot was repeated 3 times with a complete refocus each time.

So what results do I have. I can say the 50-200 and 105 Macro were both sharp and absolutely consistent in hitting focus every time with the E500 and E3. They went straight to focus beeped and stayed there. The focus is bang on the centre line.

The 50 Macro was acceptable but did have a little inconsistency on both cameras.

The 14-45 was acceptable but showed lower resolution and it was harder to confirm absolute focus and consistency.

So finally, the 12-60. Today it performed sharp, back focussed a little once, front focussed a little once and was really off (about a foot forward) once. It wasn't consistent about hitting focus and did try to shuffle a few times. But I discarded any where it shuffled. The test results were mostly sharp and focussed on the line. It was much brighter today and that may be a factor (2.8 at 1/800). But I am not as convinced today that I have a consistently front focussing lens.

I tried a few real world shots of a newspaper under the lights which were fine (except one where focus went right off) but to throw the spanner in the works I re-shot my wife's face under identical situation as yesterday and the focus was very different. Absolutely bang on the eye (yesterday focussed forward on the tip of the nose)

So with the E3 and 12/60 I have issues of repeatability and consistency. Back to square 1 and very tiresome.

I hope the guys on technical support can give me answers now. I suspect I will be told to send it in. I'd rather not. I will see if Ian can suggest anything different.

I look forward to other testers results.

Peter :(

andym
6th January 2008, 03:57 PM
Peter

As the weather was good today I thought I would try some shots in the forest,there were lots of possiblities for bad focus ie branches in front of subject etc.
Now my perceived problem was at distance and not close up.I must admit I got very good results today.I was using the double push of the shutter if when visually I though the focus was off but I alway employed this with the E1.
I does worry me a bit that the camera sometime indicates its in focus but visually its not,I think it may be a case that the new focus is a bit to sensitive.
I also took about 30 pictures of some ducks and only had about 4 oof which I thought was quite good and probably a better result than the E1.
Most of what I shot today was with the 50-200mm at F5.6 and therefore a fairly shallow DOF.

I still think there may be a slight focus issue but mine seems to not be the same as yours.

Hope it is resolved soon.I know how frustrating this can be.

art frames
6th January 2008, 04:21 PM
Andy

Not sure if it is that different - I too was having problems at distance and just a few going OOF with the same sort of hit rate as you. I also noted problems of the 12-60 hunting for focus or saying it is in focus when not in the real world. I put it down to the poor light and me. But it is supposed to be better in bad light than the E1 and E500. Doesn't seem so.

Then others said there was a problem. So I worried.

I don't normally test lenses as I expect everything to be fine but have been doing all of this for the guys at Olympus EU to try and prove something. All it is doing is making me confused and unhappy so I'll stop and will try and get good advice from Olympus UK if I can.

If you can carry on and not worry then do that :). I will try too as I think a few people are doing just that and also hoping that it will be fixed by a global fix.

It is only a camera!

Peter

DerekW
6th January 2008, 04:23 PM
Can this sort of focusing error be fixed by firmware or is it a trip to the junk yard and a redesign?

theMusicMan
6th January 2008, 06:16 PM
I a sure a firmware update will remedy any issues - in the schema of things I'd say that this would be the easy bit. The hard bit is ascertaining exactly what is causing the issue, so as to ensure if a firmware update is provided, then theoretically everyone (or almost everyone) who owns an E-3 will apply this upgrade. If Oly get that wrong, then they will be in a far worse situation.

PeterD
6th January 2008, 07:37 PM
I have now spent 5 hours in my workshop repeating tests having first established a repeatable lighting source. I used a 500w tungsten flood about 1/2 metre from the chart giving it absolutely superb light.

The camera was set as per yesterday, on a tripod with the lens a metre from the chart at around 30 degrees.

I tried the whole set of lenses (apart from the 40-150 as this was inside it's minimum focus point). Each shot was repeated 3 times with a complete refocus each time.

So what results do I have. I can say the 50-200 and 105 Macro were both sharp and absolutely consistent in hitting focus every time with the E500 and E3. They went straight to focus beeped and stayed there. The focus is bang on the centre line.

The 50 Macro was acceptable but did have a little inconsistency on both cameras.

The 14-45 was acceptable but showed lower resolution and it was harder to confirm absolute focus and consistency.

So finally, the 12-60. Today it performed sharp, back focussed a little once, front focussed a little once and was really off (about a foot forward) once. It wasn't consistent about hitting focus and did try to shuffle a few times. But I discarded any where it shuffled. The test results were mostly sharp and focussed on the line. It was much brighter today and that may be a factor (2.8 at 1/800). But I am not as convinced today that I have a consistently front focussing lens.

I tried a few real world shots of a newspaper under the lights which were fine (except one where focus went right off) but to throw the spanner in the works I re-shot my wife's face under identical situation as yesterday and the focus was very different. Absolutely bang on the eye (yesterday focussed forward on the tip of the nose)

So with the E3 and 12/60 I have issues of repeatability and consistency. Back to square 1 and very tiresome.

I hope the guys on technical support can give me answers now. I suspect I will be told to send it in. I'd rather not. I will see if Ian can suggest anything different.

I look forward to other testers results.

Peter :(

Hi Peter,

I had planned to do something similar to you today but unfortunately my mother fell extremely ill and I have spent the day at the hospital. I shall try again tomorrow if time permits.

Your results indicate that the E3 is performing OK with all but the 12-60mm lens. Like you I think Oly should step in now and comment on the findings. My query in all of this is that the response times for the SWD lens to pull-in and the E3 focus response circuitry have not been properly optimised. Hence variable focus performance. Still, they are the experts and I shall certainly be interested in their comments. If its a problem with the algorithm chosen then that should enable a firmware fix. Lets hope so.

Thanks for your update

PeterD

theMusicMan
6th January 2008, 10:16 PM
Very sorry to read this Peter, hope everything is OK with your Mother. Thoughts being beamed in your direction...

PeterD
7th January 2008, 07:39 AM
Very sorry to read this Peter, hope everything is OK with your Mother. Thoughts being beamed in your direction...

Thanks John. Shes still in hospital.
I might get some time for te experments today. I must admit, looking back on my images that my 12-60mm shots are variable in sharpness too. Because of the type of subjects I have been trying to take, I have mainly used the 70-300 lens.

Lets hope we get a reply from Oly soon.

Kind regards

PeterD

art frames
7th January 2008, 10:56 AM
As a result of talking to Support I have been asked to return my 12-60 to service or the shop as it is at fault.

They were very convinced that I have a bad lens. They also felt I would be better putting the lens into service as they could then be sure I'd get a perfect lens.

I am going to talk to a few folks before I do too much else. My preference would be a new replacement but that would tell me less than them having a proper look. They have the lens serial etc but seeing it would help.

I don't sense this was a big surprise and they did not have doubts about the E3 in the context of the symptoms and don't want to see it.

peter

PeterD
7th January 2008, 11:33 AM
As a result of talking to Support I have been asked to return my 12-60 to service or the shop as it is at fault.

They were very convinced that I have a bad lens. They also felt I would be better putting the lens into service as they could then be sure I'd get a perfect lens.

I am going to talk to a few folks before I do too much else. My preference would be a new replacement but that would tell me less than them having a proper look. They have the lens serial etc but seeing it would help.

I don't sense this was a big surprise and they did not have doubts about the E3 in the context of the symptoms and don't want to see it.

peter

Peter

Well done but I can see the delemna on both sides of this problem. Presumably the only way you are going to get a 'guaranteed' perfect lens is to have yours 'repaired' by the service dept. To swop out for another might not resolve the problem as the indications (lack of surprise at your comments) may indicate that others in stock might be affected. I would suggest that to accept their offer of 'repair' would be the better course of action provided that they in turn accept that to return the item does NOT affect your rights for a full refund should you not be satisfied.

I only had a short time today, so far, to do anything at all on this. I decided that I would shoot a few shots only with the 12-60 lens. I also decided to check the difference between S-AF and C-AF, centre target. The results I achieved is that the S-AF images were consistently better than the C-AF images in terms of focus. I did not achieve a single example of a well focussed image in C-AF. All the S-AF images were sharp.

I shall carry out more detailed checks later.

Kind regards

PeterD

PS Try and have a break from this now. You have done more than anyone else to explore this issue. Thank you.

OlyFlyer
7th January 2008, 11:41 AM
There are just too many posts to go through all, so I am sorry if this was mentioned before, but...

...when you make focussing tests, the proper way to do it is using a test chart exactly parallell with the image sensor, a sturdy tripod, no IS and from a distance of 40 times focal length at 45 degrees angle, that is if I am not wrong. Has it been done that way, or only "real lite" tests can confirm focussing problems?

Real life tests has some drawbacks in that it is very individual, often not very scientific, and seldom repeatable. I have seen so called real life tests, where the test object was a model, and her head was supposed to be in focus. The photographer complained that the head was not in focus. The only problem was that if one would draw a cross line accross the image, the head would end up almost exactly to the left the crossing point, with the center point exactly at the right side of the head, which is of course a hit, or miss target. I would not expect anything else than some times hit, some times miss.

I have also seen test images of dogs, batteries, balls, carpet, venecian blinds, marbles and so on. All are very difficult to track and practically impossible to repeat for verification of a problem. The only thing valuable in tests is if the tests are repeatable and well documented. If the results are random, not well documented, then those can be user error as well, even if many people makes the same "error".

So, what's the verdict? Is there, or is there not a problem with E-3 focussing? And if there is, could we be sure it is a firmware error, which I would not be so worried about, since it can be fixed through a new firmware release. Or, could it be a hardware error in the form of a slight misalignment of the focus sensor(s)? That would worry me much more, since then there is a quality problem at the manufacturing plant. That kind of problem cannot be fixed at our homes through firmware, only through sending the cameras back for service. I can hardly believe the European service center in Portugal can cope with such a problem, at least not in the normally very short turnaround time Olympus has.

As said, I am sorry if this is already mentioned somewhere else.

PeterD
7th January 2008, 12:06 PM
There are just too many posts to go through all, so I am sorry if this was mentioned before, but...

...when you make focussing tests, the proper way to do it is using a test chart exactly parallell with the image sensor, a sturdy tripod, no IS and from a distance of 40 times focal length at 45 degrees angle, that is if I am not wrong. Has it been done that way, or only "real lite" tests can confirm focussing problems?

Real life tests has some drawbacks in that it is very individual, often not very scientific, and seldom repeatable. I have seen so called real life tests, where the test object was a model, and her head was supposed to be in focus. The photographer complained that the head was not in focus. The only problem was that if one would draw a cross line accross the image, the head would end up almost exactly to the left the crossing point, with the center point exactly at the right side of the head, which is of course a hit, or miss target. I would not expect anything else than some times hit, some times miss.

I have also seen test images of dogs, batteries, balls, carpet, venecian blinds, marbles and so on. All are very difficult to track and practically impossible to repeat for verification of a problem. The only thing valuable in tests is if the tests are repeatable and well documented. If the results are random, not well documented, then those can be user error as well, even if many people makes the same "error".

So, what's the verdict? Is there, or is there not a problem with E-3 focussing? And if there is, could we be sure it is a firmware error, which I would not be so worried about, since it can be fixed through a new firmware release. Or, could it be a hardware error in the form of a slight misalignment of the focus sensor(s)? That would worry me much more, since then there is a quality problem at the manufacturing plant. That kind of problem cannot be fixed at our homes through firmware, only through sending the cameras back for service. I can hardly believe the European service center in Portugal can cope with such a problem, at least not in the normally very short turnaround time Olympus has.

As said, I am sorry if this is already mentioned somewhere else.

Hi Oly-Flyer,

Thanks for your comments which I agree with completely.

Out the outset of this problem, we were not sure if this was an E3 problem or not. A number of us have checked for focus using a chart to check calibration. Peter carried out those checks using a variety of lenses, with both the E3 and E500 bodies as test beds. This resulted in the 12-60 lens performance being questioned.

My tests of today were only intended as a confidence check and I shall be carrying out more detailed checks later. Incidentally, my initial findings using a test chart were that the E3 was OK and the problem was due to my lack of skill in holding the camera properly and selection of AF modes. This conclusion was reached by only testing using the 70-300mm lens NOT the 12-60mm lens which I use very infrequently. The 70 - 300mm performance has been greatly improved by addressing the skill problems above.

My concern about my 12-60mm lens is that the C-AF mode may not be stable and hence this is resulting in 100% failure to achieve good focus in this mode. This needs to be proven and it is my intention to try do this using the focus chart method.

Sorry its a bit long but I hope I have summarized the points accurately and clearly.

Kind regards

PeterD

art frames
7th January 2008, 12:46 PM
Peter

Well done but I can see the delemna on both sides of this problem. Presumably the only way you are going to get a 'guaranteed' perfect lens is to have yours 'repaired' by the service dept. To swop out for another might not resolve the problem as the indications (lack of surprise at your comments) may indicate that others in stock might be affected. I would suggest that to accept their offer of 'repair' would be the better course of action provided that they in turn accept that to return the item does NOT affect your rights for a full refund should you not be satisfied.

I only had a short time today, so far, to do anything at all on this. I decided that I would shoot a few shots only with the 12-60 lens. I also decided to check the difference between S-AF and C-AF, centre target. The results I achieved is that the S-AF images were consistently better than the C-AF images in terms of focus. I did not achieve a single example of a well focussed image in C-AF. All the S-AF images were sharp.

I shall carry out more detailed checks later.

Kind regards

PeterD

PS Try and have a break from this now. You have done more than anyone else to explore this issue. Thank you.

Peter

Thank you, I am now waiting on Digital Depot who are talking to Olympus.
I thought getting the manufacturer and supplier to give me a joint decision would be best. Lets see.

I have told them I have paid £1700 for a system and if I swap out the lens then I want it to be perfect and not a series of steps. They said I could test a new one at DD (but that clearly isn't going to work).

I have rejected DD's casual recommendation to put it in for repair without even seeing it. I said that they had a duty to sell me a good system. I would rather stick to my rights at this point. Besides they might get the truth out of Olympus

Peter

PeterD
7th January 2008, 12:54 PM
Peter

Thank you, I am now waiting on Digital Depot who are talking to Olympus.
I thought getting the manufacturer and supplier to give me a joint decision would be best. Lets see.

I have told them I have paid £1700 for a system and if I swap out the lens then I want it to be perfect and not a series of steps. They said I could test a new one at DD (but that clearly isn't going to work).

I have rejected DD's casual recommendation to put it in for repair without even seeing it. I said that they had a duty to sell me a good system. I would rather stick to my rights at this point. Besides they might get the truth out of Olympus

Peter

Peter

Thanks for your update. I think you are taking the right approach. It certainly would not be practical for you to assure yourself that you have an acceptable replacement. They MUST assure YOU. By turning it round as you have, you are much more likely to get satisfaction.

Good Luck

PeterD

PeterD
7th January 2008, 04:38 PM
Peter,

I have managed to test the 12-60 +E3 @60mmfl using the test chart.

What I found was that in C-AF mode I get back focussing by approx 30-40mm. In S-AF mode - perfect focus. I have sent the test images off for comment and await Olys response.

I do not want to draw too many conclusions at this stage until I hear from Oly. I was tempted to do the same comparative test with the 70=300mm lens but I have run out of time.

Kind regards

PeterD

art frames
7th January 2008, 04:48 PM
Peter,

I have managed to test the 12-60 +E3 @60mmfl using the test chart.

What I found was that in C-AF mode I get back focussing by approx 30-40mm. In S-AF mode - perfect focus. I have sent the test images off for comment and await Olys response.

I do not want to draw too many conclusions at this stage until I hear from Oly. I was tempted to do the same comparative test with the 70=300mm lens but I have run out of time.

Kind regards

PeterD

Peter I will PM you to save this thread

OlyFlyer
7th January 2008, 04:51 PM
Sorry its a bit long but I hope I have summarized the points accurately and clearly.

Kind regards

PeterD
Hi PeterD,

Thanks for the reply. Don't worry about the length of your answer, I am a good reader, but to go through ALL the posts regarding the E-3 AF problems on ALL forums seems to be too much.

I would expect, with a new body and new lenses to find a few with problems. But the question is still, is it a general problem which is identified with the AF, but maybe not yet detected by everybody, or is it just isolated, badly made individual cameras or lenses. I feel that the problems people experiencing has got to unbeliable proportions on almost every forum. It is discussed all over the globe, but it is difficult to identify the cause.

I spoke to Olympus Sweden today about the issue, and they say they have not heard about any problem other than the EC-20 related one identified in December. I don't know how well informed they are, or how honest, but they say they have not received any E-3 back for service and have not heard about any problems.

So, the question is still open, is there or is there not a problem with E-3. I mean a general problem, not just a few bad samples.

Best regards
OlyFlyer

Ray Shotter
7th January 2008, 05:03 PM
As a result of talking to Support I have been asked to return my 12-60 to service or the shop as it is at fault.

They were very convinced that I have a bad lens. They also felt I would be better putting the lens into service as they could then be sure I'd get a perfect lens.

I am going to talk to a few folks before I do too much else. My preference would be a new replacement but that would tell me less than them having a proper look. They have the lens serial etc but seeing it would help.

I don't sense this was a big surprise and they did not have doubts about the E3 in the context of the symptoms and don't want to see it.

peter

Sorry to read you have had so much trouble with focusing on your E-3. I decided to spend a few hours today testing my E-3 with both my 14-54mm and my 50-200mm ED lens to check whether there were any focusing problems. I used both lenses at various focal lengths, various ISOs, IS on and off, distances long and minimum and had no automatic focusing problems using both S and P modes. I didn't bother to use A mode as the P mode demonstrated that everything was working well.

It appears that your conclusion that the 12-60mm lens is the problem and not your E-3 is most likely. I am very relieved having carried out a thorough but non-scientific serious of tests that my E-3 is working well with my lenses. They work perfectly with my E-1 and my E-510. I will test my 14-62mm and my 35mm Macro later. But after testing the two main lenses it seems unlikely that there will be problems with either of them.

However, I was thinking seriously about an SWD lens (finances do not permit at the moment anyway) but I will wait to see how things turn out for you. I hope you have a satisfactory outcome very soon and look forward to reading about it.

Wreckdiver
7th January 2008, 07:10 PM
Here are the results of some tests I carried out over the weekend to see if I could detect any focusing errors with the E-3 and the 12-60mm SWD lens. Because of the large amount of shots I have put them on a separate page on my website, along with the full details of each shot. The results can be found at: http://www.stevecain.co.uk/autofocus.htm If anyone cannot open the Word document let me know and I will post the details on this forum - just don't want to clog up this posting too much if I can help it.

I tested the E-3 with 12-60mm, 50-200mm, 14-54mm and 50mm f/2.0 macro lenses. I also made a number of tests with the E-1 and the 12-60mm SWD lens.

All shots were taken at 45 degrees and using Tim Jacksons focus test chart v2.0. The cameras were mounted on a tripod and shutter release cable used. The E-3 was also set to antishock of 1 second. I used S-AF mode for all the shots as the subject was static. I don't know how valid any previous tests using C-AF would be on a static subject as S-AF should have been used.

Something to keep in mind (but you know this already) is that many of the shots clearly show a much greater depth of field behind the focal point over depth of field in front of the target. This is because there is always 1 third of the DoF lies in front of the focal point and 2 thirds behind it. The focal point for all shots was either the "Focus here" or the "This text should be perfectly in focus" text.

Draw your own conclusions, but I am very happy with all of the results.

Just as an aside, I found that the E-1 appears to autofocus significantly faster with the 12-60mm SWD lens than it does the 14-54mm lens, even though the E-1 does not have SWD. Though I have no way of measuring this.

Steve

OlyFlyer
7th January 2008, 09:40 PM
Thank you Steve for spending so much time on this. I had a quick look at some of the images. Unfortunatelly there is no exif, so it is difficult to follow. I also opened the Word document, and based on the data, I think you were too near the test sheet. I have to admit, I did not look through all of them yet, but I'll get back at them tomorrow. I think the proper test distance should be 40 times the focal length, for example, with the 50 mm lens it should be 2 meters.

Best regards
OlyFlyer

Invicta
7th January 2008, 10:06 PM
Thank you Steve for spending so much time on this. I had a quick look at some of the images. Unfortunatelly there is no exif, so it is difficult to follow. I also opened the Word document, and based on the data, I think you were too near the test sheet. I have to admit, I did not look through all of them yet, but I'll get back at them tomorrow. I think the proper test distance should be 40 times the focal length, for example, with the 50 mm lens it should be 2 meters.

Best regards
OlyFlyer


Hi

The instructions for test chart include the following:

When shooting your test pics, you need to be close enough that the test chart somewhat more than fills the frame. Get nice and close.

Set the AF-area mode to “Single area”

Set the Autofocus system to “AF-S” mode

The aim is to get the contrast area on the chart as the focus target for the auto focus sensor and then see if the actual focus is correct, behind or in front.

With the Oly equivalent settings I have no such front or back focus issues. I think we would need a different test if these settings are not used.

Wreckdiver
7th January 2008, 10:19 PM
Hi Invicta,

Just a quick reply.

All the shots were taken using S-AF

I took shots from near and far. Those I took near were at the lenses minimum focusing distance and so couldn't get any closer.

I cropped the images to a standard size. The shots show the relevant information, i.e. the complete DoF, any extra boundary information would be irrelevant.

Regards,

Steve

Wreckdiver
7th January 2008, 10:22 PM
Thank you Steve for spending so much time on this. I had a quick look at some of the images. Unfortunatelly there is no exif, so it is difficult to follow. I also opened the Word document, and based on the data, I think you were too near the test sheet. I have to admit, I did not look through all of them yet, but I'll get back at them tomorrow. I think the proper test distance should be 40 times the focal length, for example, with the 50 mm lens it should be 2 meters.

Best regards
OlyFlyer

Hi Oly,

All the shots were taken in RAW, anyone who wants the original files is most welcome to them. However, the Word document does give all the relevant exif data.

Steve

Wreckdiver
7th January 2008, 10:26 PM
Thank you Steve for spending so much time on this. I had a quick look at some of the images. Unfortunatelly there is no exif, so it is difficult to follow. I also opened the Word document, and based on the data, I think you were too near the test sheet. I have to admit, I did not look through all of them yet, but I'll get back at them tomorrow. I think the proper test distance should be 40 times the focal length, for example, with the 50 mm lens it should be 2 meters.

Best regards
OlyFlyer

Also, if you take 40 x focal length then for the 12mm-60mm lens at 60mm then that will be at 2.4 metres. At that distance you wouldn't be able to read the type on the document and the DoF would cover the whole document, so everything would be in focus. You need a very shallow DoF to see where the camera is focused and that means getting in very close with a large aperture.

If you look at the shots of the 50mm f/2.0 macro lens this is very clear indeed (tests 19 to 21).

Steve

Andrew Riddell
7th January 2008, 10:27 PM
Hi All!

I've kept out of this thread because I don't have an E3. However, I do have a 12-60 on my E510 and have found it very erratic in AF - not consistently back or front focussing, but sometimes not getting focus at all (even in ggod light with a contrasty subject). In this case I'm sure it's a duff lens (and the retailer agrees).

As I say, this may be irrelevant to the perceived E3 problem, but just in case.....

Regards,

Andrew

photo_owl
8th January 2008, 08:46 PM
For those experiencing 12-60 focus problems v 1.1 firmware update has just been released for focus - probably worth running just in case......

art frames
8th January 2008, 08:57 PM
Well I have deliberately not been posting here for a couple of days because I have been giving Olympus and Digital Depot a chance to talk and find a way of ensuring me that I can swap my lens for one which is not from the faulty batch (in the words of Olympus technical support). But I have been treated to the sort of service that they both should be ashamed of so I'm back.

My position is that they have had their chance for privacy and I will now tell you what it is like as I go. Why should I protect them from being seen to be so bad at dealing with a customer when they told me that I have given clearly a bad lens from a bad batch to me. And I'm not alone - other websites are now listing the bad serial numbers. It isn't just a handful either.

BTW Yes I have installed the firmware update and WOW it now doesn't hesitate quite so much in finding an approximate focus point but that is it. Consistent it isn't - under studio lighting on the focus target two consecutive photos will be focused 20 mm differently. And sometimes it has been much worse.

What do you expect for your money? - this lens costs £600+ and I am getting mighty fed up with the attitudes being shown.

The last time I posted I said that Olympus had said it was a lens fault and I should send it for repair (telephone diagnosis - no evidence seen). Sorry NO I said as I could imagine I'd be losing it for quite a while and then getting it returned saying 'not faulty'. Leaving me with a reconditioned lens and having lost my rights to reject it as 'not fit for purpose'. So I said I'd prefer replacement they said fine they'd noted the problem and I should go back to the shop.

So then we get back to Digital Depot. I spoke to Jake, the Olympus specialist, he said No he couldn't swap it - 'did I have that in writing from Olympus' :eek:. After a while of being told 'we've not had any problems with this lens' ( well apart from me of course) he said he would check with Olympus if he could swap it and ring me back. I made it quite clear I wanted to swap it once and for all for a no problem lens. That was yesterday morning.

Today, at 2pm, I rang them again to be told that Jake was at lunch but a rep would be coming in today and Jake was probably waiting for that. Nice of him to let me know.

Well, bless him, he called me at 4.30 and said Olympus had said it was OK to swap it over. But after being patronised and treated to some outrageously stupid suggestions (you have to come back in person so you can test the lens in the shop - which I explained was futile as you need to have controlled conditions and a PC to view the resultant files ..... it will be OK because it is from a different batch (as if they know)... it will be OK because it is new in a box.. NO we can't test the lens because if we test it then it is not new any more). If I post it to them they will send me another was the best we got to.

I said I would ring tomorrow to sort it. I am minded to send him back the whole damn lot camera and lens kit for a refund and wait until Olympus get the quality issues sorted. What can I lose. I haven't had such a poor experience for some while

Let's just remind ourselves this is a professional product selling for £1700. They should have a service surround to meet that. I don't claim to be a pro but I paid the price.

I buy other professional gear like guitars, audio and hifi where support is knowledgeable and their service means they set it up, install it and show you they are experts.

In my view we are buying mighty expensive, un-configured boxes, in the way that people used to buy PCs. Think how that has changed.

I think Olympus management need to watch this site. They should be aware of how quickly a small issue becomes a larger one when you show how little you care about your customer. Look how many people have been logging on to this thread from around the world. This isn't one guy with a faulty lens.

very fed up :mad: :mad: :mad:

Peter

Invicta
8th January 2008, 09:04 PM
My position is that they have had their chance for privacy and I will now tell you what it is like as I go. Why should I protect them from being seen to be so bad at dealing with a customer when they told me that I have given clearly a bad lens from a bad batch to me. And I'm not alone - other websites are now listing the bad serial numbers. It isn't just a handful either.




Hi Peter

Any chance you could post a link to those sites which list known bad serial numbers?

If there is a batch issue I would expect Oly to issue a re-call, they will have the registered serial number info to contact impacted users.

PeterD
8th January 2008, 09:23 PM
Hi all,

I will second ALL the comments made by Art Frames (Peter). I too have avoided posting my findings since loading the firmware update. IT HAS MADE NO DIFFERENCE. C-AF performance remains abysmal.

I have contacted my supplier and was advised to send it in under warranty for repair. I informed them that I had been sold faulty goods that were not fit for purpose. I have asked them to liaise with Olympus themselves and gave the reporting number and lens/serial number. Still not received a reply from either Olympus or the supplier.

We shall see what tomorrow brings.

PeterD

art frames
8th January 2008, 09:26 PM
Hi Peter

Any chance you could post a link to those sites which list known bad serial numbers?

If there is a batch issue I would expect Oly to issue a re-call, they will have the registered serial number info to contact impacted users.

I have routed this through Babelfish as it is a German site and my O level German wasn't up to it!

20 on this site.

http://72.30.186.56/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=de_en&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Folypedia.de%2FZuiko_Digital_ED_ 12-60mm%2C_F2.8-4.0_SWD

I think you'll be waiting a long time for a recall. My view is they will tough it out. "A series of one off isolated incidences blown out of all proportion by .... their most loyal customers who bought the camera with their hard earned cash"

BY the way if Olympus are reading this, feel free to correct what the technical support people told me if I have misunderstood in any way...

My own attention was drawn to this site by a US site who obviously are also affected by this small batch.

Peter

Invicta
8th January 2008, 09:39 PM
Interesting, are they just listing the last four digits of the serial number?
Mine has a nine digit number. It looks like the early numbers are involved.

photo_owl
8th January 2008, 09:48 PM
Sorry to hear Peter.

Look forward to hearing better news at some point.

Have no doubt (as I think you) that all will come out at some point, and equally sure that Olympus know that, so some surprise.

I am not surprised at the DD general approach (it's desisgned to protect us as purchasers of new equipement as much as anything) but it is surprising that Oly, having discussed and agreed with you and knowing UK practice, wouldn't have contacted DD. And then again....... Overall DD has had a good name in forums as well.

Of course the real concern underlying this is that it's only when things go wrong and you really need support that you can evaluate it - on the evidence presented they aren't doing very well.

PeterD
8th January 2008, 09:53 PM
Interesting, are they just listing the last four digits of the serial number?
Mine has a nine digit number. It looks like the early numbers are involved.

Yes only the last 4 numbers are listed. I beleive the preceding numbers are the same for all 12-60mm lenses.

PeterD

theMusicMan
8th January 2008, 09:57 PM
I have to say here folks that I really do feel for you, though this is no consolation.

Can I add here though something that I feel you are being led up the garden path on.

OK, the camera and lens are both manufactured by Olympus... but... your contract for goods purchased is with the store you purchased them from. As (I think is was Peter stated) - if the goods are not suitable for purpose, your statutory rights come into effect and the shop cannot refuse to either (1) exchange the goods or (2) offer a refund.

You must insist that the store handles this and gives you an immediate replacement.

Invicta
8th January 2008, 10:00 PM
I have just tried C-AF mode, I have always used S-AF mode up until now when I thought I try a C-AF test.

In C-AF mode does it display the selected auto-focus point in the view finder as it does in S-AF?

Mine does not so is this normal or have I another problem...

PeterD
8th January 2008, 10:09 PM
I have just tried C-AF mode, I have always used S-AF mode up until now when I thought I try a C-AF test.

In C-AF mode does it display the selected auto-focus point in the view finder as it does in S-AF?

Mine does not so is this normal or have I another problem...

Invicta

I have set centre target C-AF. A half press on the shutter button illuminates the centre target in the same way as in S-AF.

PeterD

PeterD
8th January 2008, 10:13 PM
I have to say here folks that I really do feel for you, though this is no consolation.

Can I add here though something that I feel you are being led up the garden path on.

OK, the camera and lens are both manufactured by Olympus... but... your contract for goods purchased is with the store you purchased them from. As (I think is was Peter stated) - if the goods are not suitable for purpose, your statutory rights come into effect and the shop cannot refuse to either (1) exchange the goods or (2) offer a refund.

You must insist that the store handles this and gives you an immediate replacement.

This is the line that both Peter & I are taking. I was given the line 'its outside 30days so it should be returned to Olympus under warranty'. I told them that I had received faulty goods which were not fit for purpose and I am looking for the supplier to resolve this.

PeterD

Invicta
8th January 2008, 10:15 PM
Invicta

I have set centre target C-AF. A half press on the shutter button illuminates the centre target in the same way as in S-AF.

PeterD

Oh my, I have a problem then. I just focusing on a plant across the room on various focus points. No illuminated point at all, I could find the one it had used by placing my finger in front, it would jump focus when my finger was on the focus point I guessed it was using.

Time for me to ring Oly now :mad:

art frames
8th January 2008, 10:21 PM
I have to say here folks that I really do feel for you, though this is no consolation.

Can I add here though something that I feel you are being led up the garden path on.

OK, the camera and lens are both manufactured by Olympus... but... your contract for goods purchased is with the store you purchased them from. As (I think is was Peter stated) - if the goods are not suitable for purpose, your statutory rights come into effect and the shop cannot refuse to either (1) exchange the goods or (2) offer a refund.

You must insist that the store handles this and gives you an immediate replacement.

John

You are right. But I think you are only entitled to your money refunded. Exchange is not a right.

On other websites I see people putting the lens and camera in for repair. I am so dubious about that. Even more so now with this experience. Why would you accept shoddy goods?

So my choice tomorrow is to either post it back or drive 42 miles and back.

Think I'll set it up to do the drive. I have very little trust of the postal services and couriers. Plus I get the chance of seeing the white of his eyes.
Olympus specialist... now there is a challenge.

Peter

PeterD
8th January 2008, 10:22 PM
Oh my, I have a problem then. I just focusing on a plant across the room on various focus points. No illuminated point at all, I could find the one it had used by placing my finger in front, it would jump focus when my finger was on the focus point I guessed it was using.

Time for me to ring Oly now :mad:

I am sorry. I hope you have more luck in getting a response than Peter(Art Frames) or myself.

You would not believe that this site is sponsored by Oly, would you?

Kind regards

PeterD

art frames
8th January 2008, 10:23 PM
Oh my, I have a problem then. I just focusing on a plant across the room on various focus points. No illuminated point at all, I could find the one it had used by placing my finger in front, it would jump focus when my finger was on the focus point I guessed it was using.

Time for me to ring Oly now :mad:

Just check you have AF illumination switched on before you do. It is one of those options I can't imagine you'd switch off.

Peter

PeterD
8th January 2008, 10:25 PM
Just check you have AF illumination switched on before you do. It is one of those options I can't imagine you'd switch off.

Peter

Good point Peter. I had forgotten that.

PeterD

Invicta
8th January 2008, 10:28 PM
Just check you have AF illumination switched on before you do. It is one of those options I can't imagine you'd switch off.

Peter

Yes, I just double checked and it also works OK in S-AF mode. Only in C-AF mode does it not illuminate the selected focus point :eek:

Invicta
8th January 2008, 10:30 PM
Yes, I just double checked and it also works OK in S-AF mode. Only in C-AF mode does it not illuminate the selected focus point :eek:

Also checked the various info screens on the picture review. In C-AF mode the red square is not displayed like it is for S-AF. :eek: :eek:

art frames
8th January 2008, 10:30 PM
Well I have deliberately not been posting here for a couple of days because I have been giving Olympus and Digital Depot a chance to talk and find a way of ensuring me that I can swap my lens for one which is not from the faulty batch (in the words of Olympus technical support). But I have been treated to the sort of service that they both should be ashamed of so I'm back.

My position is that they have had their chance for privacy and I will now tell you what it is like as I go. Why should I protect them from being seen to be so bad at dealing with a customer when they told me that I have given clearly a bad lens from a bad batch to me. And I'm not alone - other websites are now listing the bad serial numbers. It isn't just a handful either.

BTW Yes I have installed the firmware update and WOW it now doesn't hesitate quite so much in finding an approximate focus point but that is it. Consistent it isn't - under studio lighting on the focus target two consecutive photos will be focused 20 mm differently. And sometimes it has been much worse.

What do you expect for your money? - this lens costs £600+ and I am getting mighty fed up with the attitudes being shown.

The last time I posted I said that Olympus had said it was a lens fault and I should send it for repair (telephone diagnosis - no evidence seen). Sorry NO I said as I could imagine I'd be losing it for quite a while and then getting it returned saying 'not faulty'. Leaving me with a reconditioned lens and having lost my rights to reject it as 'not fit for purpose'. So I said I'd prefer replacement they said fine they'd noted the problem and I should go back to the shop.

So then we get back to Digital Depot. I spoke to Jake, the Olympus specialist, he said No he couldn't swap it - 'did I have that in writing from Olympus' :eek:. After a while of being told 'we've not had any problems with this lens' ( well apart from me of course) he said he would check with Olympus if he could swap it and ring me back. I made it quite clear I wanted to swap it once and for all for a no problem lens. That was yesterday morning.

Today, at 2pm, I rang them again to be told that Jake was at lunch but a rep would be coming in today and Jake was probably waiting for that. Nice of him to let me know.

Well, bless him, he called me at 4.30 and said Olympus had said it was OK to swap it over. But after being patronised and treated to some outrageously stupid suggestions (you have to come back in person so you can test the lens in the shop - which I explained was futile as you need to have controlled conditions and a PC to view the resultant files ..... it will be OK because it is from a different batch (as if they know)... it will be OK because it is new in a box.. NO we can't test the lens because if we test it then it is not new any more). If I post it to them they will send me another was the best we got to.

I said I would ring tomorrow to sort it. I am minded to send him back the whole damn lot camera and lens kit for a refund and wait until Olympus get the quality issues sorted. What can I lose. I haven't had such a poor experience for some while

Let's just remind ourselves this is a professional product selling for £1700. They should have a service surround to meet that. I don't claim to be a pro but I paid the price.

I buy other professional gear like guitars, audio and hifi where support is knowledgeable and their service means they set it up, install it and show you they are experts.

In my view we are buying mighty expensive, un-configured boxes, in the way that people used to buy PCs. Think how that has changed.

I think Olympus management need to watch this site. They should be aware of how quickly a small issue becomes a larger one when you show how little you care about your customer. Look how many people have been logging on to this thread from around the world. This isn't one guy with a faulty lens.

very fed up :mad: :mad: :mad:

Peter

This thread has now had 4000 views which says something.

The next most popular is 2000 views about the GRIP and Olympus not delivering what people were expecting or talking to them.

Perhaps if I keep this post visible here Olympus might read it?

PS my joke on the lounge has only 20 views so they are clearly not reading that :)

PeterD
8th January 2008, 10:35 PM
This thread has now had 4000 views which says something.

The next most popular is 2000 views about the GRIP and Olympus not delivering what people were expecting or talking to them.

Perhaps if I keep this post visible here Olympus might read it?

PS my joke on the lounge has only 20 views so they are clearly not reading that :)

May be, but your joke is at least funny;) These threads are anything but that:eek:

PeterD

art frames
8th January 2008, 10:42 PM
Also checked the various info screens on the picture review. In C-AF mode the red square is not displayed like it is for S-AF. :eek: :eek:

I just checked mine and had to switch an option on under AF/MF called AF area pointer. Don't remember playing with it but maybe the firmware update did that. Try that under the spanner 1 menu.

peter

Invicta
8th January 2008, 10:46 PM
I just checked mine and had to switch an option on under AF/MF called AF area pointer. Don't remember playing with it but maybe the firmware update did that. Try that under the spanner 1 menu.

peter

Thanks Peter. Double checked that as well and it is set to on :(

These are the full settings:

AF target selection is set to All target AF mode
AF Mode switched between S-AF and C-AF
AF Illumination is On
C-AF Lock is off
AF Area pointer is on
AF Sensistivity is Norm
[...] set up is spiral

PeterD
8th January 2008, 10:48 PM
I just checked mine and had to switch an option on under AF/MF called AF area pointer. Don't remember playing with it but maybe the firmware update did that. Try that under the spanner 1 menu.

peter

Just re-checked my settings as above and found it to be already switched on. I certainly have never adjusted that option before - I did not know it existed:(

PeterD

art frames
8th January 2008, 10:50 PM
Thanks Peter. Double checked that as well and it is set to on :(

These are the full settings:

AF target selection is set to All target AF mode
AF Mode switched between S-AF and C-AF
AF Illumination is On
C-AF Lock is off
AF Area pointer is on
AF Sensistivity is Norm
[...] set up is spiral

Oh dear...it is fairly vital, hope they know a quick fix....good luck.

PeterD
8th January 2008, 10:57 PM
Thanks Peter. Double checked that as well and it is set to on :(

These are the full settings:

AF target selection is set to All target AF mode
AF Mode switched between S-AF and C-AF
AF Illumination is On
C-AF Lock is off
AF Area pointer is on
AF Sensistivity is Norm
[...] set up is spiral

Checked my settings against those you listed above. All the same except I have chosen centre target only. I have checked your settings and I DO NOT get the square illuminated. Only for Centre target and 5 point AF.

PeterD

Invicta
8th January 2008, 11:15 PM
Checked my settings against those you listed above. All the same except I have chosen centre target only. I have checked your settings and I DO NOT get the square illuminated. Only for Centre target and 5 point AF.

PeterD

Ditto, if I select centre point or the 5 point I also get the illuminated red square displayed in C-AF, but if I go back to 11 point the illuminated red square is gone.

I have sent an email to Oly Support. It is a different address to the promotions so I hope they read and answer from this email address.

Not sure if I will be able to telephone tomorrow due to work commitments but hopefully I will get an email reply. :cool:

PeterD
8th January 2008, 11:19 PM
Ditto, if I select centre point or the 5 point I also get the illuminated red square displayed in C-AF, but if I go back to 11 point the illuminated red square is gone.

I have sent an email to Oly Support. It is a different address to the promotions so I hope they read and answer from this email address.

Not sure if I will be able to telephone tomorrow due to work commitments but hopefully I will get an email reply. :cool:

Invicta

Just to ensure I have made my reply to you clear. I get exactly the same as you with 11 point e.g. NO RED SQUARE.

It seems then that both our systems operate in the same way for each of the target types.

PeterD

Invicta
8th January 2008, 11:25 PM
Invicta

Just to ensure I have made my reply to you clear. I get exactly the same as you with 11 point e.g. NO RED SQUARE.

It seems then that both our systems operate in the same way for each of the target types.

PeterD

Hi PeterD

Yes I think we have the same. In C-AF mode I only get a red square if AF tagret selection is Single target (1 point) or Dynamic-single target (5 point). If I select All taget AF mode (11 point) I get no red square in the view finder when using C-AF.

PeterD
9th January 2008, 12:06 AM
Invicta

If I was you I would check with others first as the AF target indications may be the same as you and I have.

Kind regards

PeterD

art frames
9th January 2008, 08:32 AM
Ditto, if I select centre point or the 5 point I also get the illuminated red square displayed in C-AF, but if I go back to 11 point the illuminated red square is gone.

I have sent an email to Oly Support. It is a different address to the promotions so I hope they read and answer from this email address.

Not sure if I will be able to telephone tomorrow due to work commitments but hopefully I will get an email reply. :cool:

My camera is the same. Seems deliberate to me.

I confess that I have never used that mode and can only feel that this is a fairly 'desperate circumstances' mode to chose. It would be continuously trying to select the best focus point from all of them without settling and making a choice. I would imagine it would be constantly swapping about with a moving target (the manual says this is an example use) and they think any part of the picture in focus will do. Why would you need any indication of the target? with S-AF you could hold it if that point is what you wanted (but not with a moving target).... I am trying to think what might have been intended as it is a quite useless manual.

Please share the email as it may enlighten us to how it should be used.

From day one I swapped to one focus point and S-AF as I work better that way. I have then only tried the variations that people have said will cure my problem.

If you have previously had a focus target in this mode then I can only think the firmware change removed it.

best wishes

Peter

art frames
9th January 2008, 09:09 AM
Well I have deliberately not been posting here for a couple of days because I have been giving Olympus and Digital Depot a chance to talk and find a way of ensuring me that I can swap my lens for one which is not from the faulty batch (in the words of Olympus technical support). But I have been treated to the sort of service that they both should be ashamed of so I'm back.

My position is that they have had their chance for privacy and I will now tell you what it is like as I go. Why should I protect them from being seen to be so bad at dealing with a customer when they told me that I have given clearly a bad lens from a bad batch to me. And I'm not alone - other websites are now listing the bad serial numbers. It isn't just a handful either.

BTW Yes I have installed the firmware update and WOW it now doesn't hesitate quite so much in finding an approximate focus point but that is it. Consistent it isn't - under studio lighting on the focus target two consecutive photos will be focused 20 mm differently. And sometimes it has been much worse.

What do you expect for your money? - this lens costs £600+ and I am getting mighty fed up with the attitudes being shown.

The last time I posted I said that Olympus had said it was a lens fault and I should send it for repair (telephone diagnosis - no evidence seen). Sorry NO I said as I could imagine I'd be losing it for quite a while and then getting it returned saying 'not faulty'. Leaving me with a reconditioned lens and having lost my rights to reject it as 'not fit for purpose'. So I said I'd prefer replacement they said fine they'd noted the problem and I should go back to the shop.

So then we get back to Digital Depot. I spoke to Jake, the Olympus specialist, he said No he couldn't swap it - 'did I have that in writing from Olympus' :eek:. After a while of being told 'we've not had any problems with this lens' ( well apart from me of course) he said he would check with Olympus if he could swap it and ring me back. I made it quite clear I wanted to swap it once and for all for a no problem lens. That was yesterday morning.

Today, at 2pm, I rang them again to be told that Jake was at lunch but a rep would be coming in today and Jake was probably waiting for that. Nice of him to let me know.

Well, bless him, he called me at 4.30 and said Olympus had said it was OK to swap it over. But after being patronised and treated to some outrageously stupid suggestions (you have to come back in person so you can test the lens in the shop - which I explained was futile as you need to have controlled conditions and a PC to view the resultant files ..... it will be OK because it is from a different batch (as if they know)... it will be OK because it is new in a box.. NO we can't test the lens because if we test it then it is not new any more). If I post it to them they will send me another was the best we got to.

I said I would ring tomorrow to sort it. I am minded to send him back the whole damn lot camera and lens kit for a refund and wait until Olympus get the quality issues sorted. What can I lose. I haven't had such a poor experience for some while

Let's just remind ourselves this is a professional product selling for £1700. They should have a service surround to meet that. I don't claim to be a pro but I paid the price.

I buy other professional gear like guitars, audio and hifi where support is knowledgeable and their service means they set it up, install it and show you they are experts.

In my view we are buying mighty expensive, un-configured boxes, in the way that people used to buy PCs. Think how that has changed.

I think Olympus management need to watch this site. They should be aware of how quickly a small issue becomes a larger one when you show how little you care about your customer. Look how many people have been logging on to this thread from around the world. This isn't one guy with a faulty lens.

very fed up :mad: :mad: :mad:

Peter

Going to be ringing DD soon and hopefully will go and swap the lens and be ever so happy... but. I just tried something and would ask you to think about trying it too.

Commit the Fn button to swap to manual focus.

I have just now been able to see how far out the autofocus is by swapping to MF with the camera to eye and using that button. Then refocus by eye.

So now I can see if the lens in the shop is any better.

Trouble is if you switch it off in MF the button doesn't work to switch it to AF. It is then back to the menu time! So as the replacement to the AF/MF switch on the E1 it is pretty rubbish.

For a short time it is a helpful way to see if your focus is nicely selecting what you are telling it. ;) Try it.

art frames
9th January 2008, 02:44 PM
I now have a brand new 12-60. In the shop with Jake I have tested as best I can and it was fast, certain and in focus. It is still the previous firmware but I'll not rush to change that.

More importantly the old lens was pronounced useless by DD both on my E3 and their store one. they too took crap pictures and said I see what you mean. 'It is just plain wrong'.

Before I arrived Jake had checked with the Oly rep who claims there are faulty lenses out there but it isn't a batch or they would do a recall.

So service said batch problem, sales said not batch. Take your pick perhaps time will tell. All I feel is you know if it is wrong so take it back.

Meanwhile I will now go and test this lens with taking pictures. It felt OK but I'm not filled with confidence yet. A few cards of sharp pictures will do it.

I talked about the difficulty of service being staffed from Germany and was told that all of their equipment and service dealings are with Germany really, so I was left thinking "What do they do in Watford?"

Perhaps if they are not too busy and have some time to spend with the customer they could join in here and give us explanations about ways to work the AF to advantage and what is happening on the promotions...

Peter

jdal
9th January 2008, 03:10 PM
...
More importantly the old lens was pronounced useless by DD both on my E3 and their store one. they too took crap pictures and said I see what you mean. 'It is just plain wrong'.
...

So, it could be that the various focus issues with the E3 being extensively aired on a few forums could be (a) a faulty set of 12-60's combined with (b) a lack of understanding of the new AF system on the E-3, leading to total confusion. I'm pretty convinced now that E-3 itself, certainly mine, focusses well, I can easily put all my rubbish shots down to me.

... so I was left thinking "What do they do in Watford?"
...
I've often wondered that:). For a long time I thought Watford was the name given by Londoners for the border between the North and the South, which as we all know is really The River Tyne ;)

art frames
9th January 2008, 03:45 PM
So, it could be that the various focus issues with the E3 being extensively aired on a few forums could be (a) a faulty set of 12-60's combined with (b) a lack of understanding of the new AF system on the E-3, leading to total confusion. I'm pretty convinced now that E-3 itself, certainly mine, focusses well, I can easily put all my rubbish shots down to me.
)

I think a reasonable number of people have had or still have problems. :(

I have seen a number of non focus issues mentioned which look like build quality or quality control. Things breaking, locking up and bits falling off or bits missing.

Not all reported focus issues are with 12-60s. And I trust many of the people to be competent and right. You know when it isn't right, but then you have to try and prove it.

There are extensive reports about 12-60s and lists of faulty units. But try getting Olympus to acknowledge it.

And if you combine that with releasing it late and trying to get it to the shops by Christmas and then promoting it with timed offers I think you have a recipe which calls for great after sales service to support the launch. And it is not even average when tested. And most of my frustration is with that.

I'm glad you have no problems. Several people do and they have my deep sympathy as they will be pushing against a system which does not want to hear let alone listen.

I will wait quite some time now before I have such faith in my system being all OK.


Peter

Ian
9th January 2008, 04:09 PM
I now have a brand new 12-60. In the shop with Jake I have tested as best I can and it was fast, certain and in focus. It is still the previous firmware but I'll not rush to change that.

More importantly the old lens was pronounced useless by DD both on my E3 and their store one. they too took crap pictures and said I see what you mean. 'It is just plain wrong'.

Before I arrived Jake had checked with the Oly rep who claims there are faulty lenses out there but it isn't a batch or they would do a recall.

So service said batch problem, sales said not batch. Take your pick perhaps time will tell. All I feel is you know if it is wrong so take it back.

Meanwhile I will now go and test this lens with taking pictures. It felt OK but I'm not filled with confidence yet. A few cards of sharp pictures will do it.

I talked about the difficulty of service being staffed from Germany and was told that all of their equipment and service dealings are with Germany really, so I was left thinking "What do they do in Watford?"

Perhaps if they are not too busy and have some time to spend with the customer they could join in here and give us explanations about ways to work the AF to advantage and what is happening on the promotions...

Peter

Fingers crossed, things will be back to normal now, Peter!

Ian

PeterD
9th January 2008, 04:14 PM
Hi all

At last some good news for me too.

1. I am to receive a replacement lens:D
2. Someone must have said something to tech support as I received two (yes two) e-mails from them today. The first (@1040hrs) was a reply to my e-mail of Monday, with the test charts, complaining of the AF performance. This suggested I download the firmware update:( I immediately replied to say I already had and this resulted in no change in performance. You could have knocked me down with a feather when the second e-mail arrived at 1256hrs to say I could return the lens to the dealer or to contact Olympus UK.

I am taking this to mean that Olympus have learned from the disastrous last few days and aim to be more responsive:D Lets hope so.

Peter

I am sorry I have not replied to you before but I am delighted that you have a replacement lens that has passed your initial testing. I look forward to seeing some of your test proving images later.

Kind regards

PeterD

Jim Ford
9th January 2008, 06:25 PM
I talked about the difficulty of service being staffed from Germany and was told that all of their equipment and service dealings are with Germany really, so I was left thinking "What do they do in Watford?"


I live in Watford - I know where they live!

When I bought my E3 I told the manager that if I have any more problems (the body wouldn't focus), I'd go and kick their door down! The replacement camera's been fine so far.

Jim Ford

Melaka
9th January 2008, 06:33 PM
Ian, good to see you are back. I hope you had a good time over Christmas and the New Year.

Are you able to bring any pressure to bear on Olympus to put right some of the unhappiness that has been aired on this formum over the past couple of weeks please? Also interested to hear how you got on with the Lithiums in the HLD4.

Invicta
9th January 2008, 06:59 PM
My camera is the same. Seems deliberate to me.

I confess that I have never used that mode and can only feel that this is a fairly 'desperate circumstances' mode to chose. It would be continuously trying to select the best focus point from all of them without settling and making a choice. I would imagine it would be constantly swapping about with a moving target (the manual says this is an example use) and they think any part of the picture in focus will do. Why would you need any indication of the target? with S-AF you could hold it if that point is what you wanted (but not with a moving target).... I am trying to think what might have been intended as it is a quite useless manual.

Please share the email as it may enlighten us to how it should be used.

From day one I swapped to one focus point and S-AF as I work better that way. I have then only tried the variations that people have said will cure my problem.

If you have previously had a focus target in this mode then I can only think the firmware change removed it.

best wishes

Peter

I will share the response from Oly, but as at close of play today no reply has been received from Oly to my email.

It is not an SWD 12-60 issue as my other Oly lens give the same effect.

I can not see any reason why it should not show the selected AF point. If you limit it to single target it will only track focus of a subject moving away and towards the camera. If the subject moved to the side would you not want to use all 11 focus points to track it?

jojo
9th January 2008, 07:02 PM
I've been reading this forum primarily because I'm trying to decide if I want to buy E-3/12-60 or the canon 40d/17-55IS.

The news here has not been that positive :(

I just wanted to comment on olympus doing a recall on the 12-60. Looking at the SSN (from the link posted above) there does not seem to be an obvious pattern as to which lens is or is not faulty (this assumes the lenses are numbered sequentially). It seems that a higher number of the failures are between 8043-8586 but there are a number of 'good' lenses in that same range and the data point is relatively low.

Olympus likely has more data with regards to good/bad lenses. Of course this does not excuse olympus treatment of their customers (not sure if olympus-america is better or worse).

Oh well I take it from this thread that the E-3 gets a thumb down ?

I think a reasonable number of people have had or still have problems. :(

I have seen a number of non focus issues mentioned which look like build quality or quality control. Things breaking, locking up and bits falling off or bits missing.

Not all reported focus issues are with 12-60s. And I trust many of the people to be competent and right. You know when it isn't right, but then you have to try and prove it.

There are extensive reports about 12-60s and lists of faulty units. But try getting Olympus to acknowledge it.

And if you combine that with releasing it late and trying to get it to the shops by Christmas and then promoting it with timed offers I think you have a recipe which calls for great after sales service to support the launch. And it is not even average when tested. And most of my frustration is with that.

I'm glad you have no problems. Several people do and they have my deep sympathy as they will be pushing against a system which does not want to hear let alone listen.

I will wait quite some time now before I have such faith in my system being all OK.


Peter

art frames
9th January 2008, 07:52 PM
I've been reading this forum primarily because I'm trying to decide if I want to buy E-3/12-60 or the canon 40d/17-55IS.

The news here has not been that positive :(

I just wanted to comment on olympus doing a recall on the 12-60. Looking at the SSN (from the link posted above) there does not seem to be an obvious pattern as to which lens is or is not faulty (this assumes the lenses are numbered sequentially). It seems that a higher number of the failures are between 8043-8586 but there are a number of 'good' lenses in that same range and the data point is relatively low.

Olympus likely has more data with regards to good/bad lenses. Of course this does not excuse olympus treatment of their customers (not sure if olympus-america is better or worse).

Oh well I take it from this thread that the E-3 gets a thumb down ?

Not really. the camera is good and I was a fan until I found I had problems. What has been the problem is the lack of clear communication and the service (which was phone based mostly for me). I started to get annoyed when I had bad service but I'll be back on the ground in a couple of days. UK service tends to be a lost art lately.

They are two good cameras so find a really good shop and try them a lot. I am sure you'll be happy with either. Get the one that you want.

The internet tends to blow up stories into myths quite quickly. If I lived closer to the shop I would have taken it back a fortnight ago without the testing and agonising. Face to face the shop was fine, over the phone not so good.

This is my 6th Olympus camera over 30 years so I know what I would buy but you get what you like. After all they are more alike than they are different! :rolleyes:

Sorry if I have not helped you over the last few days.

Peter

DerekW
9th January 2008, 08:37 PM
Art Frames in an earlier post you said
"Trouble is if you switch it off in MF the button doesn't work to switch it to AF. It is then back to the menu time! So as the replacement to the AF/MF switch on the E1 it is pretty rubbish.
"

Actually with the 12-60mm in S-AF you can manually focus after the auto focus lock by adjusting the focus ring and then take the picture.

It could be some people are accidentally touching the focus ring after getting focus lock and before triggering the shutter. (Not suggesting that this was your problem)

art frames
9th January 2008, 09:20 PM
Art Frames in an earlier post you said
"Trouble is if you switch it off in MF the button doesn't work to switch it to AF. It is then back to the menu time! So as the replacement to the AF/MF switch on the E1 it is pretty rubbish.
"

Actually with the 12-60mm in S-AF you can manually focus after the auto focus lock by adjusting the focus ring and then take the picture.

It could be some people are accidentally touching the focus ring after getting focus lock and before triggering the shutter. (Not suggesting that this was your problem)

Derek

Or I'd suggest. I have set it to AF with M which is better than the function switch option and works with the older non SWD lenses too. Plus I can put function back to WB like it should be.

One thing I would say about all of the conversations I have had with support etc they have never blamed me.

So far I am still getting on OK with the new lens and can see what a piss poor version I had before..... so if anyone is wondering about their lens try a swap. :)

peter

art frames
9th January 2008, 09:25 PM
Hi all

At last some good news for me too.

1. I am to receive a replacement lens:D
2. Someone must have said something to tech support as I received two (yes two) e-mails from them today. The first (@1040hrs) was a reply to my e-mail of Monday, with the test charts, complaining of the AF performance. This suggested I download the firmware update:( I immediately replied to say I already had and this resulted in no change in performance. You could have knocked me down with a feather when the second e-mail arrived at 1256hrs to say I could return the lens to the dealer or to contact Olympus UK.

I am taking this to mean that Olympus have learned from the disastrous last few days and aim to be more responsive:D Lets hope so.

Peter

I am sorry I have not replied to you before but I am delighted that you have a replacement lens that has passed your initial testing. I look forward to seeing some of your test proving images later.

Kind regards

PeterD

Peter

I'm pleased to hear that you are being treated with more respect now too.:)

I have just received an email in response to one at 4.30 about the backpack (posted elsewhere), it seems that the responsiveness has changed. I have sent a thank you to try and encourage more of it!

best

Peter

PeterD
9th January 2008, 09:51 PM
Peter

I'm pleased to hear that you are being treated with more respect now too.:)

I have just received an email in response to one at 4.30 about the backpack (posted elsewhere), it seems that the responsiveness has changed. I have sent a thank you to try and encourage more of it!

best

Peter

Peter

I have thanked Andre for his two e-mails and also Tech support for the other two emails received today. Whilst we have been frustrated?/angry? at their past lack of responsiveness I hope they have learnt from their experience and would encourage them when they try to put things right.

I note that you are now quite pleased with the new setup. My supplier phoned me today and said they had spoken to Olympus and were prepared to replace both camera and lens. The other offer I have had is for a replacement lens to be shipped to me and for me to return my lens when the new one arrives. I am taking the latter offer as I believe it will be properly screened prior to shipping. The camera iteself I am more than happy with.

Kind regards

PeterD

art frames
9th January 2008, 10:00 PM
Peter

I have thanked Andre for his two e-mails and also Tech support for the other two emails received today. Whilst we have been frustrated?/angry? at their past lack of responsiveness I hope they have learnt from their experience and would encourage them when they try to put things right.

I note that you are now quite pleased with the new setup. My supplier phoned me today and said they had spoken to Olympus and were prepared to replace both camera and lens. The other offer I have had is for a replacement lens to be shipped to me and for me to return my lens when the new one arrives. I am taking the latter offer as I believe it will be properly screened prior to shipping. The camera iteself I am more than happy with.

Kind regards

PeterD

Peter

If you get the chance to try them side by side then I believe the difference will be very obvious. I chose to drive a hundred miles rather than face a postal exchange. The offer of receiving the replacement before sending back the reject seems more than reasonable.

Hope you get it soon.

Peter

Ray Shotter
10th January 2008, 11:08 AM
Hi all

At last some good news for me too.

1. I am to receive a replacement lens:D
2. Someone must have said something to tech support as I received two (yes two) e-mails from them today. The first (@1040hrs) was a reply to my e-mail of Monday, with the test charts, complaining of the AF performance. This suggested I download the firmware update:( I immediately replied to say I already had and this resulted in no change in performance. You could have knocked me down with a feather when the second e-mail arrived at 1256hrs to say I could return the lens to the dealer or to contact Olympus UK.

I am taking this to mean that Olympus have learned from the disastrous last few days and aim to be more responsive:D Lets hope so.

Peter

I am sorry I have not replied to you before but I am delighted that you have a replacement lens that has passed your initial testing. I look forward to seeing some of your test proving images later.

Kind regards

PeterD

Glad to read that both of you have now got what appears to be satisfactory replacement 12-60mm SWD lenses. I trust that when you have got used to these replacement lenses you will post your photos for us all to see how good they are or whether those of us with the 14-54mm lens (and who may not be too concerned about a faster speed of focusing) should upgrade.

PeterD
10th January 2008, 11:14 AM
Glad to read that both of you have now got what appears to be satisfactory replacement 12-60mm SWD lenses. I trust that when you have got used to these replacement lenses you will post your photos for us all to see how good they are or whether those of us with the 14-54mm lens (and who may not be too concerned about a faster speed of focusing) should upgrade.

Ray,

It will be a pleasure. I am looking really forward to getting some nice sharp images. I had put the 12-60 lens to one side until this problem was resolved having seen the abysmal results I had achieved.

Kind regards

PeterD

art frames
10th January 2008, 12:18 PM
Ray,

It will be a pleasure. I am looking really forward to getting some nice sharp images. I had put the 12-60 lens to one side until this problem was resolved having seen the abysmal results I had achieved.

Kind regards

PeterD

Ray likewise

I'm still just amazed at the fact it focusses on what I point it at!

I will get some examples as soon as the sun remembers where we are.

BTW unless you are unhappy I'd stay with what you have. Spend the money elsewhere. Father Jack had some good ideas! :D

Peter

Jim
11th January 2008, 04:57 PM
Not sure if this has already been spotted or mentioned but...

Olympus has released updated firmware for the Zuiko Digital ED 12-60mm f/2.8-4.0 SWD lens, announced in October 2007. The update offers improved focusing precision on distant subjects when using continuous autofocus mode. Firmware updates are downloaded through Olympus Master software.

http://www.olympus.co.jp/en/support/imsg/digicamera/download/software/firm/e1/

Jim
12th January 2008, 09:32 AM
Ok sorry! Just realised there was a post dedicated to the firmware update http://www.lastconsulting.co.uk/images/fun/icon_redface.gif

scotianostra
12th January 2008, 09:52 AM
I have been following this story too. With the 12-60 what I have noticed is that focus can be off at times but with another touch of the button it pops into better focus. I'm not too alarmed because I am still learning and may have a setting in the wrong place or something.

Olympus has just released (8 January) a firmware update to address focusing issues with the 12-60, which '... offers improved focusing precision on distant subjects when using continuous autofocus mode.' (according to DPReview).

Here is the link to the Olympus update page:

http://www.olympus.co.jp/en/support/imsg/digicamera/download/software/firm/e1/

for anyone who needs to download it.


Sorry - just noticed that this link has already been posted above.

Jim
12th January 2008, 10:14 AM
Glad it isn't just me that does that ;)

art frames
12th January 2008, 11:04 AM
Olympus has just released (8 January) a firmware update to address focusing issues with the 12-60, which '... offers improved focusing precision on distant subjects when using continuous autofocus mode.' (according to DPReview).

Here is the link to the Olympus update page:

http://www.olympus.co.jp/en/support/imsg/digicamera/download/software/firm/e1/

for anyone who needs to download it.


Sorry - just noticed that this link has already been posted above.

Thank you for trying to help. If you read on through the rest of the pages. You'll find I had the lens replaced as it was faulty.

thank you anyway :)

Peter

peak4
14th January 2008, 07:03 PM
Hello All, Another focussing post to bore you with, I actually posted it on the USA forum, but figured it might interest folks here too.

I was out with the E-3 for the first time in ages on Saturday. Most of my previous shots were broadly landscapes and I've not seen much in the way of real world focussing problems.
Saturdays trip was to a nature reserve to try getting some practice on feathered and furry things, but I couldn't believe how many OOF shots I came home with. Lots of in focus bird feeders with blurred birds on top. Most of the blurred ones seemed to have the bird on the top right of the feeder and to the rear of it; more of the significance of that later.

Having just read Dereks recent mail, on the other forum, about the ball and the fence got me thinking. I know it's dangerous but it seemed like a good idea at the time. He placed a ball behind a fence and had difficulty focussing on the ball unless he mis-aligned the focus spot to the right a bit.

Rather than a fence with vertical railings, my neighbours have a lattice one with square holes. Trying to focus on the bushes behind the fence, but with the centre focus square close to one of the railings, leads me to think that the actual focus spot is to the left and below the illuminated red square in the viewfinder. I was trying it in all four corners and the middle of all four sides of various holes in the fence. It does seem to tally with some liveview results mentioned in another thread.
If you can imagine a noughts and crosses grid (tic-tac-toe) with the centre square being exactly the same size and position as the centre focus area, I think my E-1's focussing sweet spot is almost exactly the bottom left hand square. Not far away, and in most cases insignificant, but I guess it will sometimes have bearing.

It started raining, so I moved to the kitchen and set up the camera on a solid tripod pointing at some flowered wallpaper, with a twig clamped about half way between. Using centre focus spot on small, the E-3 quite happily focussed on the wall or the twig as one should expect. If however the tip of the twig started to get close to, but not encroach on, what I believe to be my cameras sweet spot, I got a beep and a led confirmation, but neither wall or twig was in focus.
The three images below show the three scenarios with the red square pointing roughly to my chosen focus points. All were taken at 50mm approx, and setting to loop didn't seem to make a significant difference.

83

84

85

exiftools focusing distances were 3.625m, 2.325m & 1.975m respectively
The actual measurements were camera to twig 2.2m, twig to wall 1.8m approx.

This was entirely repeatable with 50mm, 50-200mm, 40-150mm, 14-54, 14-45mm (@45mm) & 12-60mm. Oddly I could not reproduce it with 50-500mm Sigma set to 50mm. (it completely throws a spanner in my excuse for the duff bird shots as I was using the Bigma at the time.)

I also tried it with a couple of the lenses on the E-1 & E-500 and failed to reproduce the same results.

I could only reproduce it reliably with the twig coming in from the bottom left, though it did occur sometimes with other setups.

The other noticable thing, was where I positioned the centre focus spot in a fork of the twig, the camera would always focus on the twig, even though it was outside the little box. Anywhere with the 3x3 noughts and crosses square even near the twig caused the camera to focus on it, rather than the wall.

Not offering any explanation, just the observation for others to ponder on.
I think I've got an excess of lenses covering 50mm though.

jojo
14th January 2008, 10:17 PM
I presume the communication between camera and lens is different for the sigma 50-500 (ala the firmware/micro processor in the lens).

perhaps the ZD are telling the camera to misfocus :(


Hello All, Another focussing post to bore you with, I actually posted it on the USA forum, but figured it might interest folks here too.

. Oddly I could not reproduce it with 50-500mm Sigma set to 50mm. (it completely throws a spanner in my excuse for the duff bird shots as I was using the Bigma at the time.)

I
I think I've got an excess of lenses covering 50mm though.

art frames
16th January 2008, 04:24 PM
As I mentioned earlier having exchanged my 12-60 for one that wasn't faulty I went to take some pictures to convince myself all is OK. It isn't.

I went to the forest to a bird feeder station where I always enjoy getting shots of birds. It was sunny and bright and of the 156 pictures I am left with 25ish to keep. Some were just not good but I had two real issues inconsistent focus and inconsistent spot metering. Of the rejects I have about 30 where focus is just so wrong it is silly. The focus is latching on to other things it prefers or if it cannot decide making a half baked compromise (nothing in focus). And that is the 50-200 lens - always so sharp it hurts!.

But in view of the rough ride you gave to our friend who didn't show his problems here are two OOF and two in focus shots.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/oof1.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1964)

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/oof2.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1965)

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/inf2.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1963)

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/inf1.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1962)

Now we know when something isn't right and when we did something silly. The two OOF shots also gave focus confirmation (and I have another 20+ here) and I was shocked when I sat through 156 slides on my 23in screen.

So I have just spent another half an hour looking through the lens at focus targets in the real world. Houses and trees and horses (reasonably far away) with the 50-200. This thing decides for itself where it focusses but says it is locked on your centre point with a nice red glow and beep.

So I had a long chat to Digital Depot. Tomorrow I drive 100 miles to swap bodies or reject it. They also said would I like to swap systems! I think they are realising that it isn't all good.

Please put a decent lens on yours and try the focus on CF and AF swapping between far and near with say a branch (like the other contribution in a post a few above this). It is an eye opener. Of course yours may be fine, who knows?!

best wishes

Peter

PS the spot metering was another story. You will see that I was shooting small targets against a bright sky. Spot metering was totally inconsistent shot to shot (even when the bird and the focus point didn't move)

PeterD
16th January 2008, 04:40 PM
Peter

What you are revealing is rather disturbing. I still have not received my 12-60 replacement but I see that this may not address my issue.

I shall take some shots as you suggest with the 70 - 300mm and 45 - 150mm lens. I had stopped using C-AF since this problem arose in the first place and now restrict myself to S-AF. I was going to retry C-AF when the new lens arrived but this changes things.

Its a bit late now so I shall try tomorrow.

All The best

PeterD

art frames
16th January 2008, 04:48 PM
Peter

What you are revealing is rather disturbing. I still have not received my 12-60 replacement but I see that this may not address my issue.

I shall take some shots as you suggest with the 70 - 300mm and 45 - 150mm lens. I had stopped using C-AF since this problem arose in the first place and now restrict myself to S-AF. I was going to retry C-AF when the new lens arrived but this changes things.

Its a bit late now so I shall try tomorrow.

All The best

PeterD

Peter

I haven't had an experience like this before but it makes me feel so exhausted and depressed. I have kept on looking at the experiences on the fourthird forum and know this is a bigger issue.

If the body is also faulty then that will mean I had an independently faulty lens and body that they just happened to put together.

I do seriously wonder if the best thing to do is give it all back until Olympus work out what they need to do to produce consistent and fully functional versions.

Maybe the body change will be enough. This one has never filled me with confidence it freezes and the auto rotate feature is definitely wrong (but I switched that off).

But thanks for sharing it with me. I thought your lens would have arrived by now!

Peter

Ian
16th January 2008, 05:00 PM
Peter

I haven't had an experience like this before but it makes me feel so exhausted and depressed. I have kept on looking at the experiences on the fourthird forum and know this is a bigger issue.

If the body is also faulty then that will mean I had an independently faulty lens and body that they just happened to put together.

I do seriously wonder if the best thing to do is give it all back until Olympus work out what they need to do to produce consistent and fully functional versions.

Maybe the body change will be enough. This one has never filled me with confidence it freezes and the auto rotate feature is definitely wrong (but I switched that off).

But thanks for sharing it with me. I thought your lens would have arrived by now!

Peter

I informed Peter late last week that Olympus UK is currently out of stock of 12-60s and the next batch will arrive next week. Technically, all these are pre-allocated as there is a back order of E-3/12-60 kits, but Olympus UK has guaranteed that one will have Peter's name on it and it will be swapped for Peter's original lens by courier, by Olympus.

Olympus Europe has circulated a note reminding anyone interested that SWD lenses have full time manual focus control because it's mechanically linked. I didn't post this notice as I didn't want anyone to be a frustrated by what I'd consider 'obvious' advice. But what the hell - basically if you have a SWD lens, you must be careful not to move the focus ring in any focus mode once focus has been locked. It's just the same with Canon lenses, for example. I don't think this will help in this case, but I guess it's worth reminding anyone who has a SWD lens after all.

I'd be interested to note if the replacement lens is noticeably improved compared with the original, or exactly the same. has the v.1.1 firmware been applied to thre replacement lens? Is the problem only related to continuous AF? I suppose it has to be considered that the body is contributing to the problem?

Ian

art frames
16th January 2008, 05:08 PM
I suppose it has to be considered that the body is contributing to the problem?

Ian

Ian

Having changed the 12-60 I have been able to take better pictures using S-AF and M. But today was the first trip outside and I feel that this is a body issue with both the 50-200 and 50 macro lens showing focus inconsistency in a huge number of shots.

The 12-60 replacement I had was not upgraded to 1.1 but it was shop stock.

I'll let you all know tomorrow what DD think. I may revert to being an E1 user with fewer problems.

Peter

DerekW
16th January 2008, 05:18 PM
Peter (Art Frames)

Did you detect that with S-AF small centre point that the position where the actual focus is measured is slightly to the left and perhaps a little bit lower than the red square in the view finder.

If you can prove this for your camera then that would explain the first picture as the camera was focusing on the tree to the left of the bird (which does appear sharp)

art frames
16th January 2008, 05:27 PM
Peter (Art Frames)

Did you detect that with S-AF small centre point that the position where the actual focus is measured is slightly to the left and perhaps a little bit lower than the red square in the view finder.

If you can prove this for your camera then that would explain the first picture as the camera was focusing on the tree to the left of the bird (which does appear sharp)

Derek

I have agonised over trying to diagnose the issues but it isn't the same each time.

I posted the ones where people could see focus in the frame (to stop the posts saying user error). If it were that consistent then I would not say inconsistent just faulty alignment.

I have proven to myself that the focus sensitivity isn't where it claims. It is in a much bigger area and anything getting close to that area will cause hunting and lock to a better target somewhere else.

I just want a normal camera.

Peter

Melaka
16th January 2008, 07:25 PM
This seems to have become the most popular thread both in number of posts and in number of views. I've not had as much time to use my E3 as I would have liked and I've certainly not taken such a scientific approach as some posters have. I'm now beginning to wonder if the occasional OOF results I've had (with the 14-54) were down to the camera rather than to me. It is my perception I've had more than I ever did with the E1 or or do with the E500. It rather shakes one's confidence and I hope Olympus will be saying something soon.

MartinCRC
16th January 2008, 08:23 PM
I've only recently become aware of this forum and have read this thread in particular with great interest. Much of what has been written here, particularly the experiences of Peter (Art Frame), mirror mine quite closely. I have been posting my problems over on fourthirdsphoto so won't bother rehashing them here. The bottom line for me though it that my 12-60 is utterly hopeless, particularly at the wide end, and that my 50-200 also shows erratic behaviour on my E3, but to a smaller extent and particularly, and consistently, when the AF sensitivity is set to small.

I have spoken to the Oly technical support people in Germany today and they were quite helpful, suggesting that my 12-60 was at fault, but gave little hint that they had had similar conversations before. I am more inclined to return the whole shebang but will see what Park Cameras have to say tomorrow.

I'll keep you posted

Martin

art frames
16th January 2008, 08:31 PM
I've only recently become aware of this forum and have read this thread in particular with great interest. Much of what has been written here, particularly the experiences of Peter (Art Frame), mirror mine quite closely. I have been posting my problems over on fourthirdsphoto so won't bother rehashing them here. The bottom line for me though it that my 12-60 is utterly hopeless, particularly at the wide end, and that my 50-200 also shows erratic behaviour on my E3, but to a smaller extent and particularly, and consistently, when the AF sensitivity is set to small.

I have spoken to the Oly technical support people in Germany today and they were quite helpful, suggesting that my 12-60 was at fault, but gave little hint that they had had similar conversations before. I am more inclined to return the whole shebang but will see what Park Cameras have to say tomorrow.

I'll keep you posted

Martin

Martin

it is great not to be alone. I would caution you to not just accept a change in the 12-60. They seemed very happy to do that. Change the whole system. I have effectively done that it two painful stages.

It is impossible in a shop to try it out with any real hope of getting a good test. I thought i had. :mad:

The other thing that has been said elsewhere is that this problem appears to get worse over time. I'd say it comes and goes and in a way that is difficult to predict.

If you know you can take sharp pictures, reliably well and cannot with this system (this is my firm position now) reject it.

best of luck

Peter

PeterD
16th January 2008, 08:34 PM
I've only recently become aware of this forum and have read this thread in particular with great interest. Much of what has been written here, particularly the experiences of Peter (Art Frame), mirror mine quite closely. I have been posting my problems over on fourthirdsphoto so won't bother rehashing them here. The bottom line for me though it that my 12-60 is utterly hopeless, particularly at the wide end, and that my 50-200 also shows erratic behaviour on my E3, but to a smaller extent and particularly, and consistently, when the AF sensitivity is set to small.

I have spoken to the Oly technical support people in Germany today and they were quite helpful, suggesting that my 12-60 was at fault, but gave little hint that they had had similar conversations before. I am more inclined to return the whole shebang but will see what Park Cameras have to say tomorrow.

I'll keep you posted

Martin


Martin

I am awaiting a replacement 12-60mm lens which should be delivered in the next manufacuring batch. It suffers from back focussing. I shall be carying out more test tomorrow - see my post above to save repeating myself.

Kind regards

PeterD

MartinCRC
16th January 2008, 08:36 PM
Peter,
Thanks for that. I have already had one conversation with Park Cameras in which they said to return the camera and lens for repair, but reading your experience encourages me to insist on a replacement or refund.

All the best

Martin


Martin

it is great not to be alone. I would caution you to not just accept a change in the 12-60. They seemed very happy to do that. Change the whole system. I have effectively done that it two painful stages.

It is impossible in a shop to try it out with any real hope of getting a good test. I thought i had. :mad:

The other thing that has been said elsewhere is that this problem appears to get worse over time. I'd say it comes and goes and in a way that is difficult to predict.

If you know you can take sharp pictures, reliably well and cannot with this system (this is my firm position now) reject it.

best of luck

Peter

PeterD
16th January 2008, 08:44 PM
Peter,
Thanks for that. I have already had one conversation with Park Cameras in which they said to return the camera and lens for repair, but reading your experience encourages me to insist on a replacement or refund.

All the best

Martin

Martin

To add to your confidence, I was offered a complete kit swap from my supplier after they contacted Olympus as I requested. I thought at the time it was my 12-60 lens alone at fault hence opted for a new manufacture item direct from Olympus. I am still of this view until I have completed my tests.

PeterD

DerekW
16th January 2008, 08:51 PM
An equipment swap at this time without re assurance that there has been a change or improvement in the manufacturing process or product will possibly leave you in the same position in another couple of months.

It would be be very helpful for Olympus to tell us what they see, what they are doing, what they have found out and some approximate dates for fixes or a recovery plan and a re assurance that all early adopters of the E3 will be looked after for a period longer than the existing warranty.

PeterD
16th January 2008, 09:01 PM
An equipment swap at this time without re assurance that there has been a change or improvement in the manufacturing process or product will possibly leave you in the same position in another couple of months.

It would be be very helpful for Olympus to tell us what they see, what they are doing, what they have found out and some approximate dates for fixes or a recovery plan and a re assurance that all early adopters of the E3 will be looked after for a period longer than the existing warranty.

Derek,

I could not agree with you more. That was my main reason for geting a 12-60 lens direct from Olympus and not swap from existing stock. Hopefully that was the right decision. Time will tell.

As you say, it would be nice to have an open dialog in the manner you describe.

PeterD

art frames
16th January 2008, 09:14 PM
An equipment swap at this time without re assurance that there has been a change or improvement in the manufacturing process or product will possibly leave you in the same position in another couple of months.

It would be be very helpful for Olympus to tell us what they see, what they are doing, what they have found out and some approximate dates for fixes or a recovery plan and a re assurance that all early adopters of the E3 will be looked after for a period longer than the existing warranty.

Derek

It would be nice but..

I have tried to get Olympus to say whether they have a problem. Although there are indications that some 12-60 units are faulty that is as much as I have been told. All else is guesswork.

As far as I am concerned that leaves me on my own. The shop is swapping the camera or returning my cash as I have no wish to purchase faulty goods. They cannot do otherwise. The moment I accept that it is a general problem that I'm willing to try and fix then the camera becomes "mine' but covered by warranty.

If you ask my opinion then it is more likely that this is a quality control issue than a design issue but I don't want to play pass the parcel for much longer.

I don't know if Olympus monitor this stuff but I hope they do. I know the sort of debates that go on when your company is in crisis mode and making an admission is seen as a huge step... but a denial would be good too.

Peter

DerekW
16th January 2008, 11:08 PM
So it is up to Ian to see if he can get a response from Olympus and then sending the response to us via private email if Olympus do not want to go public - however there will be a point when the various forum mutterings will get reported outside.

Already a Google on "E3 focus issue" gets a hit at number 3 on the results list

ptomsu
17th January 2008, 08:20 AM
This focus issue is unfortunately getting out of control and the fault is not only a problem of some E-3's - which BTW might occur and is not bad - but the way how Olympus treats this problems.

They are trying to ignore (which was unfortunately my case with my local Olympus representative for 2 weeks, till I gave up) or they just seem to cover it with silence. And replacing cameras without telling the community which problems they are fixing is not productive for their business.

And this makes the whole thing pretty bad, because it makes them look like they do not know how to solve the issue. Which is the worse thing to happen. Especially for this camera.

Ian
17th January 2008, 09:34 AM
OK - from what I can see, there is a small number of reports that there is a focus problem.

Either these users are an unlucky few or the problem is more widespread but users don't notice are aren't bothered by it somehow?

Who else here has noticed AF problems? I can't honestly say that I have.

The primary point of contact for recently purchased equipment is with the dealer where the camera/lens was originally purchased from. If the problem can't be resolved there, for whatever reason, then it should be escalated to the manufacturer.

If your dealer isn't cooperating, you need to move higher up the ladder. If that doesn't work, something is clearly wrong.

Both the Peters are at different stages of the process of dealing with their problems (though PeterD has had 'special' attention via this site from Olympus UK).

Anyway, so far I don't see AF issues being a widespread problem.

Ian

jdal
17th January 2008, 09:51 AM
If there ARE focussing faults in some bodies, I would find it VERY helpful be there was a description of a methodical way to see if my body had the problems as it's hard to tell from this thread how to. I may not be using the camera at the moment in a manner that causes problems, but I may well be later in the year.

This thread and the one in the other forum has rattled my confidence a bit, and when that happens I start to see problems which don't exist.

art frames
17th January 2008, 09:57 AM
OK - from what I can see, there is a small number of reports that there is a focus problem.

Either these users are an unlucky few or the problem is more widespread but users don't notice are aren't bothered by it somehow?

Who else here has noticed AF problems? I can't honestly say that I have.

The primary point of contact for recently purchased equipment is with the dealer where the camera/lens was originally purchased from. If the problem can't be resolved there, for whatever reason, then it should be escalated to the manufacturer.

If your dealer isn't cooperating, you need to move higher up the ladder. If that doesn't work, something is clearly wrong.

Both the Peters are at different stages of the process of dealing with their problems (though PeterD has had 'special' attention via this site from Olympus UK).

Anyway, so far I don't see AF issues being a widespread problem.

Ian

Ian

I think this is a fair summary. With your agreement I will post what happens later when I go to Digital Depot and we see if they can provide a replacement or refund.

As I said earlier a denial that there is a widespread problem from Olympus would be a good step towards managing this.

They have a system for collecting data and seeing patterns I presume plus a number of returned units to study.

It is either quality control, user error or design. Of the three I suspect number 1 - as it was with the lens.

I am not making trouble and value the support of this group in getting me through this as it is extremely stressful to me. The personal impact on me has been disproportionate to the utility that the camera provides. Having lost another half a day of work time, I slept badly and am absolutely not looking forward to the visit and to demanding my rights (if I have to).

With absolute respect to all of those that have enjoyed their camera and have no issues I hope I can join you.

Peter

theMusicMan
17th January 2008, 10:13 AM
Hey Peter

I sincerely hope the day goes well for you. I appreciate this is easy to say when it's someone else whop has to actually do it - but please try to remember that if there is a fault with the equipment you purchased... it is the responsibility of the shop where you purchased the goods to remedy this. This is their responsibility and they should not tell you to send it back. You can demand a replacement item as the goods that were sold to you were not (and to use legal jargon here) 'fit for purpose'.

Good luck Peter, please let us know how you get on.

PeterD
17th January 2008, 10:42 AM
Hey Peter

I sincerely hope the day goes well for you. I appreciate this is easy to say when it's someone else whop has to actually do it - but please try to remember that if there is a fault with the equipment you purchased... it is the responsibility of the shop where you purchased the goods to remedy this. This is their responsibility and they should not tell you to send it back. You can demand a replacement item as the goods that were sold to you were not (and to use legal jargon here) 'fit for purpose'.

Good luck Peter, please let us know how you get on.

Yes good luck Peter.
My supplier suggested that I return the camera & lens back to Olympus. I refused and told them that the goods were not fit for purpose and I wish to exercise my rights for replacement or money back. I pointed out that the only circumstances that I would return for repair was if the goods became faulty AFTER I had used them. I told them that they should talk to Oympus BEFORE making any further suggestions. At the end of this they called back agreed to swap the full kit. I am wondering if I had made the wrong choice now in just swapping out the lens. I shall know better soon when I get the chance to do some more tests based on your experience.

PeterD

Nick Temple-Fry
17th January 2008, 12:49 PM
I still have problems with this thread and how widespread this, or any problem may be.

Earlier this week I went out to photograph small birds, in woods, in overcast afternoon conditions. Just the situation that should provoke any issues (indeed that was partly my intent). I have posted some of the pictures in the 'Murky Birds' thread in FotoFair.

Whilst I had several shots I rejected, only a couple were because the subject was out of focus, and I could see why at the time I made the shot. This fits well with my other experiences with my E-3.

What I have found is that the E-3 demands more thought in use than my E-500 did, the focussing system is very sensitive and you have to tune the camera for the circumstances of each shoot. There is a significant hurdle in knowledge to climb compared to the very basic AF provided on earlier Olympus cameras. But I find I'm regularly pulling in shots that I would have been unlikely to get with my old camera and that once I have thought out what settings I want I can click away happily without worrying about gaining focus.

Please – if you are following this thread be aware that there are happy E-3 owners out there and that the E-3 AF is quite capable of performing well in challenging conditions.

There may be a few 'rogue' cameras out there (for whatever reason), and there are some well researched contributions to this thread showing difficulties; but that leaves a significant leap to any assumption of a general and system wide problem.

Nick

ptomsu
17th January 2008, 01:39 PM
Since it seems to me that this problem is still treated without the right respect, here a link to another forum. Not sure if you know this, but it shows clearly there are issues and how unprofessional Olympus is dealing with these issues so far.

http://fourthirdsphoto.com/vbb/showthread.php?p=134995#poststop

I am still owning a lot of Olympus gear, spent a lot of money in this and I really hope this can be fixed asap. And I do not care what the problem is, in my case it is for sure NOT a problem esulting from the user. My patience is at least at ZERO.

Peter

art frames
17th January 2008, 02:49 PM
Ian

I think this is a fair summary. With your agreement I will post what happens later when I go to Digital Depot and we see if they can provide a replacement or refund.

Peter

Ian and others

Digital Depot have replaced my faulty body with another new body which we attempted to test in the shop. They replicated my camera faults in the store (noting the focus was inaccurate, sluggish and just would be beeping happily whatever) and rang Olympus to see what to do.

I now have a new system with a warranty from today (for the body) and last week for the lens. Furthermore if I am unhappy with this one they will collect it and refund my money. I nearly had a refund today as I am that upset by the experience - but they are being as helpful as I could wish now and volunteered to give me my money back and pick it up if it wasn't perfect.

I stopped at the bird feeder on the way home. In gloom and light drizzle we have accurate focus, substantially better rejection of any intruding branches and no obvious reject shots from 72 frames. I will leave it for a few days and see how I feel. I now know what the focusing system should feel like. I will see if it deteriorates or if other little problems turn up before claiming this is over.

So in one 12-60 kit both units were faulty. And 'once again' in the latest E3 box the manual was missing - luckily I noticed!

Lets hope I have done my fair share of QA for Olympus.

Peter

Dick Bowman
17th January 2008, 03:00 PM
I wonder whether there's a clue tucked away in the Instruction Manual (page 96 - AF Sensitivity).

"NORMAL - ... uses a range that is somewhat larger than the selected AF target ...
SMALL - ... only within the selected AF target..."

Which seems (deliberately?) rather vague - take a look, these AF target squares in the viewfinder are hardly small.

I tend to think in terms of aiming at a spot, centering it, and thinking "that's it". But read the book and it seems as if the camera is designed to have a look around in the vicinity of "the spot" and if it finds something that takes its fancy thereabouts it'll focus on that (instead).

Now it's not hard to conceive of subjects where distances vary significantly within the camera's "range" (as (not) defined above.

That's not to rule out possibilities of design faults or QC problems, but - as I suggested in another thread - it would seem helpful if Olympus would offer the user some more precise information than we find in the manual.

ptomsu
17th January 2008, 04:18 PM
One setting which helped with my E-3 was to set the AF to Diamond, with the central AF spot in this diamond to normal.

In this setting AF worked pretty good, also under low light, so I guess the algorithm does take all 5 spots for metering, the outer 4 for rough adjustment and the central spot for fine adjustment.

Why I finally decided I could not live with this setting is the fact, if something gets in the way of one of the outer focus points, then AF focuses on this thing - mostly if it is closer than the subject you try to focus with the center spot. So this was finally not accurate enough for me, maybe some users can live with it.

So I think in addition to QC issues, which result maybe in some of the focussing issues (I only can guess) there are also improvements in the AF algorithms necessary.

In principle all not too bad, these things can happen (of course should not), but it needs a proper official reaction from Olympus.

art frames
19th January 2008, 04:32 PM
I posted these two tit pictures on the Foto forum http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showpost.php?p=4986&postcount=30 to show the new body appears a lot better. The weather is so poor I have only been out once but I hope not to have to post on this thread again.

PeterD what has happened to you?

Peter

PeterD
19th January 2008, 05:09 PM
I posted these two tit pictures on the Foto forum http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showpost.php?p=4986&postcount=30 to show the new body appears a lot better. The weather is so poor I have only been out once but I hope not to have to post on this thread again.

PeterD what has happened to you?

Peter

Hi Peter, thanks for asking.

I hope to receive the new 12-60 this coming week. I am still not 100% happy with the body but the problems at home are overwhelming me at the moment and I am unable to go out to play:(

I am glad you have got your new set up, God knows you have worked hard enough for it. I have posted my comments to you on the other thread.

Maybe next week things will be better:)

PeterD

MartinCRC
19th January 2008, 05:21 PM
Peter,
I'm very pleased that you seem to have resolved your problems with the new outfit. After another round of testing, I have sent my E3 plus 12-60 back to Park Cameras for refund or exchange. At the time I packed it all up I was so disillusioned by the whole experience that I reluctantly started to contemplate switching systems altogether. Today I even took a look at the D300, 5D and A700 in local camera stores but all that really achieved, with the exception of the D300, was to reinforce my prejudices about how poorly resolved most DSLR systems actually are. The Sony feels good in the hand but the output is truly shocking and the 16-105mm kit lens dreadful. The Canon feels somehow old-fashioned and although the image quality at the center of the frame is exceptional, the 24-105L lens is soft as hell everywhere else. The Nikon comes closest to something I might contemplate spending money on - the output is excellent and the 17-55 lens I tried looked pretty good but, ironically, the body I tried was front focussing visibly in the viewfinder. Astonishing. So what this has really illustrated is how agonisingly close the E3 is to wiping the floor with allcomers. The output really is exceptional, the AF is genuinely quick, faster by a mile than anything I tried today (although of course that is meaningless if what it is doing is rapid misfocus), and the whole package somehow seems just right. Interestingly, where the Nikon really shines is its viewfinder, which is gorgeous - very easy to take in the whole view and see the information display at the bottom without having to shift the eye about. In my view, although the finder in the E3 is a huge improvement over the E300/E400/E500 series, it still falls short of the luxurious quality of the E1 and the D300. So perhaps the grass is not greener after all on the other side and I should put my faith in a replacement E3, rather than a refund. I'll let you know how things go next week once Park Cameras have received my camera and once they decide how to handle things.

All the best
Martin



I posted these two tit pictures on the Foto forum http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showpost.php?p=4986&postcount=30 to show the new body appears a lot better. The weather is so poor I have only been out once but I hope not to have to post on this thread again.

PeterD what has happened to you?

Peter

art frames
19th January 2008, 05:35 PM
Peter,
I'm very pleased that you seem to have resolved your problems with the new outfit. After another round of testing, I have sent my E3 plus 12-60 back to Park Cameras for refund or exchange. At the time I packed it all up I was so disillusioned by the whole experience that I reluctantly started to contemplate switching systems altogether. Today I even took a look at the D300, 5D and A700 in local camera stores but all that really achieved, with the exception of the D300, was to reinforce my prejudices about how poorly resolved most DSLR systems actually are. The Sony feels good in the hand but the output is truly shocking and the 16-105mm kit lens dreadful. The Canon feels somehow old-fashioned and although the image quality at the center of the frame is exceptional, the 24-105L lens is soft as hell everywhere else. The Nikon comes closest to something I might contemplate spending money on - the output is excellent and the 17-55 lens I tried looked pretty good but, ironically, the body I tried was front focussing visibly in the viewfinder. Astonishing. So what this has really illustrated is how agonisingly close the E3 is to wiping the floor with allcomers. The output really is exceptional, the AF is genuinely quick, faster by a mile than anything I tried today (although of course that is meaningless if what it is doing is rapid misfocus), and the whole package somehow seems just right. Interestingly, where the Nikon really shines is its viewfinder, which is gorgeous - very easy to take in the whole view and see the information display at the bottom without having to shift the eye about. In my view, although the finder in the E3 is a huge improvement over the E300/E400/E500 series, it still falls short of the luxurious quality of the E1 and the D300. So perhaps the grass is not greener after all on the other side and I should put my faith in a replacement E3, rather than a refund. I'll let you know how things go next week once Park Cameras have received my camera and once they decide how to handle things.

All the best
Martin

Martin

It is so hard to do this alone so I'm glad sharing a little of my agony has helped. Just be confident in knowing when something is wrong. Like you I was really upset to have such a profound problem which really wasn't helped by the posts saying that the camera is fine. I am now in the state of waiting for the next thing and hoping for the best.

If you changed systems it would be more of the same. The fact is that quality has never before been an issue. I had seriously thought about selling the E1 but not now. It is a seriously well build and long lasting machine. It feels rugged. The E3 feels waterproof.

good luck and keep us in touch.

Peter

MartinCRC
21st January 2008, 02:54 PM
Peter et al.,

I had a call from Park Cameras this morning and they have agreed to refund me in full having confirmed the AF issues I was having. I am greatly relieved that they agreed so quickly to refund me, in spite of the month and a half that has passed since I purchased the camera. They told me that they have sold a lot of E3's since November and mine was the first to be returned with any sort of problem. Interestingly, over at fourthirdsphoto.com, they are running a poll and currently about 20% of the 25 respondents who have replied so far have had unresolvable problems with the AF system.

So my problem now is what to do next. My options appear to be (a) buy another E3 now and pray that I don't luck into another bad one (with my luck this is a dead cert), (b) keep faith in fourthirds for the moment with say a Panasonic L10 and sit out the teething troubles with the E3 or (c) dump fourthirds and buy a Nikon D300 or similar. Having had a play with a D300 at the weekend and nosed about a few forums, it seems clear that they have more than their fair share of QC issues, with chronic front/back focus problems, weird field curvature in some of their exotic wide to tele standard zooms and bits of garbage floating around inside lenses. My instinct is to stick with Oly but perhaps wait a bit for prices to drop and to see what might emerge at PMA.

Anyway, thanks for the moral support and good advice.

Martin




If you changed systems it would be more of the same. The fact is that quality has never before been an issue. I had seriously thought about selling the E1 but not now. It is a seriously well build and long lasting machine. It feels rugged. The E3 feels waterproof.

good luck and keep us in touch.

Peter

ptomsu
21st January 2008, 03:00 PM
Martin,

At least you got refunded for your E-3, which is good. In principal I do lije the E3 and the FT system, but not sure how these quality issues will evolve. I cannot say I heard anything bad about the D300, I used a D2X for several years and never ever had any AF nor back/fronfocus problems.

But honestly said, I would wait this 2 weeks till after PMA and then decide. :)

PeterD
21st January 2008, 03:24 PM
Peter et al.,

I had a call from Park Cameras this morning and they have agreed to refund me in full having confirmed the AF issues I was having. I am greatly relieved that they agreed so quickly to refund me, in spite of the month and a half that has passed since I purchased the camera. They told me that they have sold a lot of E3's since November and mine was the first to be returned with any sort of problem. Interestingly, over at fourthirdsphoto.com, they are running a poll and currently about 20% of the 25 respondents who have replied so far have had unresolvable problems with the AF system.

So my problem now is what to do next. My options appear to be (a) buy another E3 now and pray that I don't luck into another bad one (with my luck this is a dead cert), (b) keep faith in fourthirds for the moment with say a Panasonic L10 and sit out the teething troubles with the E3 or (c) dump fourthirds and buy a Nikon D300 or similar. Having had a play with a D300 at the weekend and nosed about a few forums, it seems clear that they have more than their fair share of QC issues, with chronic front/back focus problems, weird field curvature in some of their exotic wide to tele standard zooms and bits of garbage floating around inside lenses. My instinct is to stick with Oly but perhaps wait a bit for prices to drop and to see what might emerge at PMA.

Anyway, thanks for the moral support and good advice.

Martin

Martin,
Do you have any other Oly camaras or is the E3 the only one you have? The reason I am asking is that it may be worthwhile getting a second hand DSLR for now and sell it again when you have decided which way to go.

From what you say though, other manufacturers have their own problems with their new models. It may be prudent to wait until things stabalise. One thing for sure QC issues and others will have to be addressed by the manufacturers in the short term. I understand the Oly sales have been higher than expected which had led to a shortage in stocks at distributers. If it helps I would think of it this way, that procedures will have already been tightened up to reduce Oly's liability for replacing faulty product. This of course may be true of other manufacurers but I have no feel for how their sales have gone.

Hope what I have said makes sense but I have been in a bit of a hurry.

Kind regards

PeterD

jdal
21st January 2008, 04:53 PM
There's a survey on fourthirdsphoto:

http://www.fourthirdsphoto.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=20917

which is worth a look, it seems a rational response to this issue.

MartinCRC
21st January 2008, 05:21 PM
Yes, I mentioned in my post above. The percentage reporting problems is now up to 25%! Not good odds if I decide to jump back in the E3 pool.

Martin



There's a survey on fourthirdsphoto:

http://www.fourthirdsphoto.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=20917

which is worth a look, it seems a rational response to this issue.

jdal
21st January 2008, 05:41 PM
Yes, I mentioned in my post above. ...
Oops, sorry. Trying to work and post at the same time

art frames
21st January 2008, 06:08 PM
Peter et al.,

They told me that they have sold a lot of E3's since November and mine was the first to be returned with any sort of problem.

So my problem now is what to do next.

Anyway, thanks for the moral support and good advice.

Martin

Martin

I'm glad you are back in the driving seat. I've been out photographing today. Still making up my mind. It is far better but still I cannot feel content with the amount of unsharp pictures I get. But I'm trying to be rational and put most of the doubtful ones down to the IS not covering the low speed or the bird moving. Not sure yet.

So what would I do? Depends on what lenses you have - if any. I'd not jump into another E3 until after PMA. I think a firmware update will be issued when the press are busy with the big new camera stories. The PR will be carefully managed.

I suspect the best option would be a tried and tested model that has been around for a while but is high spec. Say a Canon 5D or 40D. Rather than another new one like the N 300. Thats if you have no lenses. Just depends on what you'd use it for.

If you have any 4/3 lenses then the price on the 510 looks really good. I presume they will announce the 520 soon. But you want tried and tested!

Whatever happens good luck.

Peter

R MacE
21st January 2008, 07:51 PM
I've been trying my E-3 using the settings from 4/3rds Photo. I only managed indoor/low light but it seems mine is fine with the 14-54. DOF isn't all that shallow though at f/3.5.

One thing that crossed my mind was that trying to handhold in low light while using IS will help to stabilise the Image but the actual focus point may well be moving around with the result that it hasn't locked on what the user thinks he's locked on.

Richard

MartinCRC
21st January 2008, 09:27 PM
Peter,

I have the 50mm macro and 50-200mm lenses, both excellent reasons for keeping faith with the system. But the E410 and 510 are probably out for me because of the relatively poor dynamic range and small viewfinders. The Panasonic L10 supposedly has the E3 sensor but also suffers from a small finder. So it looks like E3 or nothing on that front.

I've been down the Canon route in the past and will not return - I had poor experiences with their lenses, particularly the wide angles and see too many 5D samples covered with dust bunnies. The D300 looks like a very nice body but I would really have to be sure that the lenses could compete with the Olympus lenses for edge to edge performance before taking that route. I also feel a resistance to taking the mainstream path :)

We'll see what PMA brings but in the meantime, I'll enjoy a spot of window shopping.

Martin


Martin

I suspect the best option would be a tried and tested model that has been around for a while but is high spec. Say a Canon 5D or 40D. Rather than another new one like the N 300. Thats if you have no lenses. Just depends on what you'd use it for.

Peter

Ray Shotter
21st January 2008, 09:30 PM
One thing that crossed my mind was that trying to handhold in low light while using IS will help to stabilise the Image but the actual focus point may well be moving around with the result that it hasn't locked on what the user thinks he's locked on.

Richard[/QUOTE]

I think Richard's quote above may explain some of the problems being experienced and because I wondered whether some of my OOF shots were due to missing the target I decided on Saturday 19 January to set up my E-3 with the 50-200mm lens on a tripod and use the RM-CB1 cable release to guarantee that what I aimed at was what I photographed. I deliberately aimed at targets within 1-2 inches of each other in the horizontal or vertical plane but at different distances from the camera to ensure that at the maximum aperture at focal length of 200mm (ie f3.5) - using spot focusing only - the target not focused upon would be out of focus. Altogether I shot some 54 photographs with various targets including some which I find are notoriously difficult to focus (ie the outer leaves of a shrub) with the other target immediately behind. Also the top of a pole with a white sphere immediately behind again within 1-2 inches away in the horizontal and vertical plane but at different distances from the camera. All the photographs confirm that the E-3 with the 50-200mm lens at full extension using spot focusing is amazingly accurate and fully in focus on the target.

Having said that I discovered that on one or two occasions when focusing on the second target that I had overlapped the focus target area of the previous shot and the focus did not change. However, once I moved the camera away from the first target area the focus changed immediately. It was very obvious when I made that mistake because, although the normal focus "beep" sounded there was no accompanying "whirr" from the camera and lens to suggest that re-focusing had taken place.

I have included some of these photos in the members gallery - if anyone is interested to see proof of my findings.

art frames
21st January 2008, 09:41 PM
Peter,

I have the 50mm macro and 50-200mm lenses, both excellent reasons for keeping faith with the system. But the E410 and 510 are probably out for me because of the relatively poor dynamic range and small viewfinders. The Panasonic L10 supposedly has the E3 sensor but also suffers from a small finder. So it looks like E3 or nothing on that front.

I've been down the Canon route in the past and will not return - I had poor experiences with their lenses, particularly the wide angles and see too many 5D samples covered with dust bunnies. The D300 looks like a very nice body but I would really have to be sure that the lenses could compete with the Olympus lenses for edge to edge performance before taking that route. I also feel a resistance to taking the mainstream path :)

We'll see what PMA brings but in the meantime, I'll enjoy a spot of window shopping.

Martin

Martin

Cannot fault your logic and I share your dislikes.

Good luck with the window shopping and drive a hard bargain next time.

Peter

dennisg
21st January 2008, 11:25 PM
As with other digital cameras, the senors can be fooled if the target they are focusing on have too much detail where the sensor just keeps focusing and cannot come to terms with the subject being photographed. There is in the E500 manual that says if there is a blank or a subject that has a lot of vertical or horizontal characteristics that the autofocus ability of the camera can be confused and fooled.

The E3 has an 11 point focusing system and ALL of the points overlap each other. This is where Olympus claims it gets its speed in the auto focus mode. Maybe the overlapping in the picture is just too much for the sensors to handle and thus the focus does not have the correct depth of field or just cannot get anything sharp in the shot.

My concern is that with the claim that the speed has been increased, there maybe some issues with the design where it will be corrected once results from the field are reviewed and addressed. This is the first time since DSLRs hit the market that I have heard so many issues with the auto focus capability. Olympus will need to resolve this or there will be major doubts about the new line, the E3.

By the way, I was hoping that the new speed of the auto focus in the E3 would have been on the money so that they can incorporate this type of system in follow ons to the E410 and E510. My E500 is slow and I would like to have a camera that gets the shot without spending a lot of money to get what should be part of good photography practices!

Dick Bowman
22nd January 2008, 08:05 AM
Yes, I mentioned in my post above. The percentage reporting problems is now up to 25%! Not good odds if I decide to jump back in the E3 pool.

Martin

Bear in mind that there's a degree of self-filtering going on here - people who have no problems are less likely to be diddling around on Internet forums than people who notice a problem and start wondering what other people have to say about it.

DerekW
22nd January 2008, 10:10 AM
Self Filtering

Could be that users that test their cameras subscribe to forums, users that are "less obsessive" probably have not noticed any problem and do not even know of the forums.

Apologies to people who think I have characterised them as obsessive, perhaps I should use the word enthusiastic instead, perhaps I am looking in the mirror <g>

Ray Shotter
23rd January 2008, 01:33 PM
Peter,

I have the 50mm macro and 50-200mm lenses, both excellent reasons for keeping faith with the system. But the E410 and 510 are probably out for me because of the relatively poor dynamic range and small viewfinders. The Panasonic L10 supposedly has the E3 sensor but also suffers from a small finder. So it looks like E3 or nothing on that front.

I've been down the Canon route in the past and will not return - I had poor experiences with their lenses, particularly the wide angles and see too many 5D samples covered with dust bunnies. The D300 looks like a very nice body but I would really have to be sure that the lenses could compete with the Olympus lenses for edge to edge performance before taking that route. I also feel a resistance to taking the mainstream path :)

We'll see what PMA brings but in the meantime, I'll enjoy a spot of window shopping.

Martin

The current very competetive prices of the E-510 and its excellent overall perfomance make it a good buy in my opinion. When I bought mine last year I was reluctant to buy it mainly because of the small viewfinder but I decided to replace the kit viewfinder with the ME-1 and this greatly improves the viewfinder image. So I bought the E-510 anyway. I had several E-system lenses including the 14-54mm and 50-200mm and was tempted to buy the E-510 without the 14-42mm kit lens. I was persuaded by the Olympus representative that this was not financially a good idea and am very glad that I did purchase the camera with the 14-42mm lens. It is an excellent little lens - remember it is an ED lens - and, although I have used the camera with all my Olympus E-system lenses, I have to say the E-510 fitted with the 14-42mm lens is a very convenient and compact combination to carry around for general photography. I should also add that the 50-200mm lens is not at all awkward to use with the E-510 and in some respects is easier to hold than the E-3 fitted with 50-200mm lens.

Obviously, I would recommend the E-3 before the E-510 - but in value for money terms the E-510 takes some beating.

Ray.

art frames
27th January 2008, 08:27 PM
Having watched this issue whilst experiencing my own problems I keep monitoring all of the sites i know of and, finally, some of the folks at DPReview have actually calmed down enough to admit they can see the issue.

So for those in doubt here is a useful picture of the issue from one of the seniors there and some good discussion around it. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=26529120. A good picture is worth a 1000 words,

For those not noticing it 'good for you'. But I would say telling us that isn't a great help and would ask you to accept this post is not for you. You take different pictures or have different technique. And cameras do seem to vary. My replacement camera is substantially better but still produces the occasional very soft pictures and some really OOF ones but is very much better on average at the moment. I am fine when I can use AF with manual adjustment. But in many circumstances that isn't practical. Sharp focus is a critical issue to me. And I have tried every setting. If you read the thread you'll know that.

I am now waiting for an upgrade to the AF system which must be due. There are also a few gremlins beyond focus to kill.

I don't wish to create an issue where there isn't one but I do want Olympus to know it needs fixing - and I hope PeterD's camera is OK now.

Peter

Ray Shotter
31st January 2008, 11:22 AM
Having watched this issue whilst experiencing my own problems I keep monitoring all of the sites i know of and, finally, some of the folks at DPReview have actually calmed down enough to admit they can see the issue.

So for those in doubt here is a useful picture of the issue from one of the seniors there and some good discussion around it. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=26529120. A good picture is worth a 1000 words,

For those not noticing it 'good for you'. But I would say telling us that isn't a great help and would ask you to accept this post is not for you. You take different pictures or have different technique. And cameras do seem to vary. My replacement camera is substantially better but still produces the occasional very soft pictures and some really OOF ones but is very much better on average at the moment. I am fine when I can use AF with manual adjustment. But in many circumstances that isn't practical. Sharp focus is a critical issue to me. And I have tried every setting. If you read the thread you'll know that.

I am now waiting for an upgrade to the AF system which must be due. There are also a few gremlins beyond focus to kill.

I don't wish to create an issue where there isn't one but I do want Olympus to know it needs fixing - and I hope PeterD's camera is OK now.

Peter

Sorry to read you are still having problems with the E-3's AF. I read the DP Review comments you referred to above. There are plenty of views being expressed - some with obvious frustration that others don't seem to understand the problem described. However, it seems clear that some are having AF problems and some are not. I tried the "fence approach" myself using a trellis at about 45 degrees to the camera in our garden as the target for successive shots at different uprights (approximately 8 inches apart) and had no problems using centre spot focus and exposure. However, I did have one OOF shot but it was clear I had overlapped the target area of my previous shot. I have come to what I suppose is an obvious conclusion that the red centre square is clearly not the limit of the focus area when using centre spot focusing but more likely the circle around the centre spot. Consequently, if the second target is still within this circle it seems that the AF may not register a change but will still bleep. However, as I have written previously, the absence of any lens focus movement or the "whirr" of the lens and camera should alert me to the possibility that the AF has not re-focussed on the new target and I am still focussed on the previous target.

I fully appreciate that my experience is different to yours and it does appear that you have a real problem which needs solving. Maybe a firmware update will be the answer.

Ray.

art frames
31st January 2008, 12:00 PM
I have come to what I suppose is an obvious conclusion that the red centre square is clearly not the limit of the focus area when using centre spot focusing but more likely the circle around the centre spot.

Ray.

Ray

I would say that this is clear when you test and I agree. The hard to test but observable fact is that if the AF doesn't like the focus target in that circle then that can be soft when other parts of the frame will be sharp. Whether that is because other focus targets are used (despite it being set to single target) or through chance I cannot tell. I still get those and wish I'd been able to tweak the focus. But sometimes you can't.

I would observe that plenty of soft shots are being posted on other forums as supposedly really sharp examples. I just like it to be as good as I can get.

I have stopped testing and just take pictures. I am doing it with a heightened sense of awareness to the sorts of signals you speak of and also refocus two or three times when I can. Which defeats this fastest autofocus claim but helps. I'd like a new mode. Slow but accurate.

Peter

ptomsu
15th February 2008, 06:50 PM
Seeing all the issues which came up in the last weeks with E-3 focus I can only be happy that I got rid of mine some weeks ago already. The focus issue turns out to be a system bug, also nobody here seems to want to admit this. And this system bug is even more serious, as obviously it appears in some cameras, while lot of others are working perfectly. So this makes it pretty difficult to overcome in production.

Although I also owned the 12-60, which has as well focusing issues as is admitted meanwhile by Olympus, it is not really encouraging to see that these failures occur with new products on the market.

Not very great theater Olympus has set up for their flagship product :eek:

theMusicMan
15th February 2008, 06:57 PM
Seeing all the issues which came up in the last weeks with E-3 focus I can only be happy that I got rid of mine some weeks ago already. The focus issue turns out to be a system bug, also nobody here seems to want to admit this. And this system bug is even more serious, as obviously it appears in some cameras, while lot of others are working perfectly. So this makes it pretty difficult to overcome in production.

Although I also owned the 12-60, which has as well focusing issues as is admitted meanwhile by Olympus, it is not really encouraging to see that these failures occur with new products on the market.

Not very great theater Olympus has set up for their flagship product :eek:
Hi ptomsu

Where does it say anywhere that the alleged focus issue is a system bug? I don't have a focus issue and have some pin sharp images taken already.

Also, if it is a bug - then it isn't a hardware issue and can be fixed, yeah...?

OlyFlyer
15th February 2008, 07:53 PM
A system for me is both the hardware AND the firmware. Unfortunatelly, I have to agree, I am now convinced it is a system bug. Some can live with it, others can not. How Olympus is going to solve this, I have no idea. I doubt it is so simple and small that it can be neglected. My camera is only one week old and after about 1k images I am convinced it has problems, and I am also quite sure it is in every camera. If it can be fixed via firmware it is good, if not it is a sad tragedy. I have my faith in Olympus and really believe they are going to come out alive and fix it for everybody who seem to have the problem.

Anyway, that world's fastest AF is not much to be proud of. I wish my E-3 had the accuracy of my E-500, even if the speed would be the same as well. Now we got the speed, but we miss a whole lot of images due to bad focus. As a matter of fact, I spent the last two or three weeks analyzing images, both my own and others. I am about to write a report to Oly and hopefully will convince them and point them to the actual issue which they seem to be unable to find. They can have access to all my images as well, in a hope that it will help them to identify and fix the problem. I see no reason to stick our heads in the sand like an oystrich.

photo_owl
15th February 2008, 08:58 PM
"My camera is only one week old and after about 1k images I am convinced it has problems, and I am also quite sure it is in every camera"

Pleased to see your committment to assisting Oly establish and resolve this.

I too agree that it's a system - and quite a complex one at that. If the 12-60 hadn't been launched at the same time progress might have been faster - equally some more detailed technical specifications on the AF would have helped many understand the 'what' and 'how'. Finally the obvious issues around the lens release area and associated contact switch components clearly needs to be resolved - this one may be a combination design and QC issue.

What disappoints me the most is the clear failure of whatever UT was implemented.

Jim Ford
15th February 2008, 09:52 PM
I've followed the various 'focusing issue' threads on several forums with interest - and a little apprehension.

I've had my E3 and 12-60mm SWD lens for a couple of months now and honestly can't say I've noticed any focusing problems - am I doing something wrong?

I'm not suggesting it's in postings on this site, but on other sites I've detected 'focusing postings' verging on hysteria!

Maybe I'm not looking at my images critically enough. Maybe I should shoot carefully designed and set up focusing targets, in near laboratory conditions, at various distances at maximum apertures, and closely examine the results?

I don't think so - I go out and shoot images in the 'real world' and so far the only 'complaint' I have about my E3 is that its considerably heavier than my E500 - but then it's considerably more of camera!

So far I've only printed images up to A4 and they look pretty sharp and in focus where I want it to be, to me. I feel that they will easily match the sharpness of 20x30 prints taken with my E500, if I should get them enlarged to that size.

FWIW my body serial number is D70503240 and 12-60mm lens 230004514. Maybe this will be of help for any on this forum that are researching the 'problem'.

Jim

OlyFlyer
15th February 2008, 10:43 PM
Jim, I gave up the serial number discussion. I am convinced it is not the answer. By the way, my camera is D70510492 for what its worth.

Anyway, I am happy I did not get the 12-60.

I think if you shoot wide open you will see what I mean. Take a few hundred images of stationary objects, let the camera to focus again and again, variing the distance, but not moving a lot. Correct lighting and exposure is important. I am quite sure the success rate will be about 70-80% which IMO is bad. In that situation, my E-500 would have given 100% hit rate.

I just taken a whole evening, portraits and macro using the 50mm, and the hit rate is about 50%. All taken after beep, shutter priority off, center AF point, sensitivity small, FL-50 used. This is very bad, considering I just used my E-500 in a similar way about three weeks ago with almost 100% keepers. The only non-keepers from that shooting was the ones I messed up due to hand shake.

Something is definitely not as supposed to be, and I am actually almost there to point at what it is...

dennisg
16th February 2008, 01:05 AM
I have just read that Olympus UK has sent out a service annoucement fir their new 12-60 F2.8 lens that is having focusing problems. The link is:
http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/208_18859.htm

They claim that there is a small amount of first run production lenses that have this problem and that they are offering all of those with those numbers with serial numbers affected free service to correct this problem.

I really hope that this is the end of this topic for all of us who are interested in upgrading to this model and lens.

Dennis G:)

ptomsu
16th February 2008, 07:08 AM
This flaw, or call it system bug, or call it whatever you want, has obviously nothing to do with serial numbers. It is a principle bug somewhere in the design of the AF system, especially its capabilities under low light, low contrast and very bright light (as having direct spots shining into your picture).

I have tested these with my E-3, 12-60 and also non Oly FT glass, like the 1,4/25. Most sad thing is, that Panasonic made Oly responsible for not focussing correctly, while Oly said the same about Pana, when I approached both with my 1,4/24 and E-3 issues. This is an open standard and an open system? Come on, give me a break, this is fighting problems of design, FW or whatever on the back of the customer :mad:

So while the new Oly flagship E-3 has a serious bug, at least serious enough for photographers who ask accurate, fast and consistent reliable focusing from their system, these issues also prove that the whole FT system standard idea is not more than lipwork and marketing. In theory it should work, in praxis it does not today, not even on simple things like AF ....

Sorry, but this cannot be called professional and by no means a professional system. I have lost my trust in Oly and the whole FT story.:(

theMusicMan
16th February 2008, 07:56 AM
Hey ptomsu

You really like bashing Olympus and the E-3 don't you.:p

If, as you continually suggest, there was or is a bug with the E-3, then surely all E-3's would be experiencing similar issues - and as I have said several times before (and also directly to you too); I, and the majority of other E-3 owners have no issues whatsoever with our cameras. I cannot comment about the 12-60 as I don't own that particular lens, the 11-22 and 14-54 cover the range I tend to use fairly well so I am not considering any change.

Or, are you suggesting that the alleged 'principle bug' (c'mon, make your mind up will you please about what you're gonna refer to it as, hehe...:) ) is a totally random one, appearing when it wants to, every now and then, in an arbitrary manner...?

Sure, you have allegedly had a bad experience with your [now sold] E-3, did you wait for any firmware upgrade to see if that resolved the issue...? Did you change the lens as Olympus is now requesting...? Did you persevere with experimentation and controls/conditions - on the slight chance that we're royal' we're] not all perfect...? Didn't you make your first post on here bashing Olympus...? [and still here eh!!]... Do you continually make references to this 'principle bug' on other Oly and 4/3 fora...? [sounding more like a SPAMMER to me]. Have you posted any images of this supposed poor quality...? [I haven't checked, but I seriously doubt it]. Do you consider trading a D2X (@ approx £2,500 for body only) for an E-3 a wise thing to do, or is this either (1) a rather silly and inexperienced thing to do, or (2) a little white fibby wibby... :)

Peter... I could have sworn I read somewhere that you didn't like the D2X...!! Ahhh yes... it was on the Canon forums.... I remember now.:D

You do seem to have a rather high opinion of yourself don't you... and I also see that you've been put in your place about this too... but this time on a Leica forum... you do like spreading out yourself don't you...:)

I see some nice pics that may be yours on there...
http://galleries.lfi-online.com/albums/userpics/10127/normal_2007-06-24_0011.jpg

... were those taken with your E-3 when it wasn't focusing correctly...? or were they taken with your Leica and you didn't quite manage to get the focus correct...? Never mind, I am certain that all of us here have many oof shots, but I guess we don't post them on the net.

So Peter - or - ptomsu, to summarise. You had a bad experience with your E-3, and that's a shame, I wish you hadn't and that you, like many others, were pleased with your camera. Alas, this was not to be. So... we all know your opinions now, we're all familiar with your thoughts on this alleged 'principle bug' as you have informed us about it many times, and across many fora, so please now let it go yeah. You apparently don't own an E-3 any more, and have gone back to your beloved D2X or maybe a D3 now and I wish you good luck with it/them.

All the best.

Note to all: reminder of the 'Quick Links > User Control Panel > Miscellaneous > Buddy / Ignore Lists" feature...:)

ptomsu
16th February 2008, 11:42 AM
@John

the desperate words of somebody who is still running the E-3? *bauble

Never mind, if you do not notice the difference, it is much easier for you. *reindeer

If you would have followed your own camera forums, you would have noticed which issues still exist. Talking yourself into dreams will help you for sure, but will never help the issue as such being resolved.

So what folks like you are doing is rather damaging Olympus reputation, than anything else, which Oly would need now. Shame!

And even more shame on you as you do not dare to publish your full name. Acting as ANONYMO is always easy. I am done with people who I am not knowing who I communicate to. Feeling really sorry for you!

theMusicMan
16th February 2008, 12:16 PM
@Peter - I am hardly anonymous on the net matey... I own and run a forum with over 500,000 posts, delivering 20,000,000 pages per month, and over 10,000 members. I can hardly be anonymous can I...? Besides, my own www site gives my contact details.

I have no problem telling you you're acting ridiculously, in a childish manner, and will add you to my ignore list.

John Burns - how's that.

@Ian: You may wish to deal with this troll in an appropriate manner.

ptomsu
16th February 2008, 12:29 PM
@Peter - I am hardly anonymous on the net matey... I own and run a forum with over 500,000 posts, delivering 20,000,000 pages per month, and over 10,000 members. I can hardly be anonymous can I...? Besides, my own www site gives my contact details.

I have no problem telling you you're acting ridiculously, in a childish manner, and will add you to my ignore list.

John Burns - how's that.

@Ian: You may wish to deal with this troll in an appropriate manner.

Best thing John to add me to your ignore list.

@Ian: I would highly recommend to let this guy know that I am NOT a troll. I do not want to discuss about the other things he is telling me.

Solar
16th February 2008, 07:43 PM
I've seen Ptomsu troll on another forum (can't remember if its dp or 4/3) ... but either which way... don't feed it.

I don't believe the focus issue is a system problem. There are occasional times when the focus gets tricked, but I have found such with EVERY camera I have ever used.

The 12-60 admittedly had a problem for certain serials ... as noted. Perhaps Oly, when it is confirmed without the added junk posts and troll posts can exactly decipher a problem with a certain range of bodies a different recall would be in order.

But I don't think it is every E-3 .....

OlyFlyer
16th February 2008, 09:10 PM
I hate to feed trolls, but I think he is right. Something is seriously wrong, and I am more and more convinced it is in every camera. Some people see it some don't, some are disturbed by it, some don't but I am quite sure everyone has it. I think it is possible to handle, but I dont' regard it as OK in a camera which is called 'pro model' and supposed to be the top of the line. Actually, regardless if it is in every camera or not, it is in far to many cameras to be acceptable.

I really hope Oly can handle it via firmware, if not than I think that is the end of Olympus pro dSLR cameras. To recall the 12-60 lenses is one thing, to recall almost 100% more bodies is a completely different thing. I don't think Oly Europe can handle that, especially since the end of 2006 there is only one service center in Europe for ALL dSLR. The Portugeese will not be able to cope with so many cameras, so I doubt Oly will recall them. I think they will gamble, taking a chance that not everybody is going to complain.

Anyway, I will call Oly on monday. Now I have all the images I need to send them.

DerekW
16th February 2008, 10:49 PM
The worse case is that under EU law the customer can reject the product to the dealer for a refund - this would then kill the retail outlets for other Olympus products or would create a huge pile of dead E3s in the various Oly distribution centres.

Not a happy thought for Oly and the people that have bought into the Oly system.

mlc
16th February 2008, 11:19 PM
I am more and more convinced it is in every camera. Some people see it some don't, some are disturbed by it, some don't but I am quite sure everyone has it.

The thing is if I and others let statements like this go by, then other readers will believe you, and you become an "expert". I would like to understand how you can say its in every camera. What research have you undertaken?

Over on www.fourthirdsphoto.com, Tony Spore has a poll on this issue - 75% say they do not have this issue - what insight do you have that allows you to believe and state they must be wrong?

Clearly messers Wrotniak and Foster have it upside down in their reviews of this camera - they missed this huge issue!!

I took some shots a while back in a nature reserve. I spotted a swan and cygnet swimming along past some trees and took some images - blow me if they weren't out of focus. But whilst I thought I had a clear view, obviously one of the focus points had locked on to a branch/twig. Very annoying - yes. But did I run to the nearest PC to complain on my favourite forum? Did I send my camera back? Well no - I switched focus points, and carried on.

S**t happens - you or the camera locks on the wrong point and its not in focus. The camera does not know what it is you are trying to focus on all the time - you have to tell it. What we need to do is be aware of the possibilities, and be prepared to change our methods to get a particular shot - get back in control. That incident was with an E-1, with its total of 3 focus points - if we can miss shots with that system, then we can miss them on a camera with 11. But don't say its the fault of the camera - AF systems are not foolproof.

Mark

Ian
16th February 2008, 11:20 PM
The worse case is that under EU law the customer can reject the product to the dealer for a refund - this would then kill the retail outlets for other Olympus products or would create a huge pile of dead E3s in the various Oly distribution centres.

Not a happy thought for Oly and the people that have bought into the Oly system.

I'm genuinely sorry for the (apparently) small number of people that have had problems, but to suggest that everyone has the problem is a bit extreme, don't you think? I certainly don't have any problems and many others I know don't either. And there are those who have had replacement lenses and seem to be happy now.

The E-3's AF system and the new SWD AF mechanism are very sophisticated and, admittedly, complicated.

There are so many options - release priority modes, AF point sensitivity, more AF points, and the change from fly by wire to all-time mechanically linked focus control amount to a lot of differences from previous Olympus DSLRs and lenses. Maybe the system is too complex; so that would be a fair criticism, but is it really a case of getting to understand the system and making the best use of it rather than it being faulty? I wonder.

Ian

Ian
16th February 2008, 11:25 PM
Best thing John to add me to your ignore list.

@Ian: I would highly recommend to let this guy know that I am NOT a troll. I do not want to discuss about the other things he is telling me.

John has my fullest support. I'm seeing quite clear inflamatory indicators your posts, to be perfectly honest. I respect your point of view, but I, like John, feel you're being over zealous about ramming it home and, when challenged, defending it.

Ian

ptomsu
17th February 2008, 08:06 AM
I'm genuinely sorry for the (apparently) small number of people that have had problems, but to suggest that everyone has the problem is a bit extreme, don't you think? I certainly don't have any problems and many others I know don't either. And there are those who have had replacement lenses and seem to be happy now.

The E-3's AF system and the new SWD AF mechanism are very sophisticated and, admittedly, complicated.

There are so many options - release priority modes, AF point sensitivity, more AF points, and the change from fly by wire to all-time mechanically linked focus control amount to a lot of differences from previous Olympus DSLRs and lenses. Maybe the system is too complex; so that would be a fair criticism, but is it really a case of getting to understand the system and making the best use of it rather than it being faulty? I wonder.

Ian

I have stayed away from FT forums for the last 6 weeks or so and just looked in last week to see how the solution of the focus issue is going on. What I found, and I hope you at least confirm this one, is that there seem to be still cameras which have a focus issue. So it brings me to the conclusion, that this is not just a problem of the first series, but a problem of complexity of the AF system as such.

Add to this the issues ith the 12-60 (BTW mine did not have these issues!) then it does not say the best about these new products from Olympus.

I did NOT say that all E-3s are affected, I only conclude - and this can be believed by whoever wants to and ignored by the rest - there are obviously some more serious issues with the E-3 than with other cameras - also Olympus. And yes again- this might be due to the high complexity of the system.

What I do not accept is calling me a troll. I first do not hide my identity (lot of others do, at least at first sight) and I can let you know I am member of several forums because I own products of the according vendors - Leica Forum, Nikonians, Four Thirds Foto Forum, FT User Discusson Form and this forum - I hope I did not forget some.

What I absolutely censure is that someone in a forum does not allow to say some others their opinion. This is not fair and childish. There should be the possibility of open discussion. And what J.B. initiated here was no open discussion, but rather the start of accusing and blaming. I for myself never would take the time to d a search and investigation about another forum member in order to find out where this one did post whatelse somewhere. I only can name this childish behavior.

Nevertheless, I hope this answer clearly shows I am not a troll and as already mentioned I hope for Olympus that they will be able to fix their problems. But keeping problems secret does obviously not work. So if you would try this here you see, they pop up somewhere else, by somebody else. Better accept them then and try to work positively on solving, than just killing the messenger upfront and calling him troll. Which BTW happened when you closed my 1st thread here some weeks ago where I published my troubles with the E-3 and Olympus representation in Austria, where I had bought my camera. There was NO SUPPORT and NO UNDERSTANDING for my issues! This is not what I would call professional. As was not the reaction to call a person troll who has gone through that issues and mike him shut up by closing a thread. As time tells now I was obviously not wrong with my observations and there is still no final solution to these issues.

Henk
17th February 2008, 08:26 AM
As was not the reaction to call a person troll who has gone through that issues and mike him shut up by closing a thread. As time tells now I was obviously not wrong with my observations and there is still no final solution to these issues.

I know some very good photographers who have the same issue with the E-3 and have decided to do a joint investigation and keep it out of the forums - for the same reasons - until they have pinpointed the cause.

You have my sympathy but do not forget that this forum is sponsored by Olympus so reactions may be biased.

DerekW
17th February 2008, 10:02 AM
I'm genuinely sorry for the (apparently) small number of people that have had problems, but to suggest that everyone has the problem is a bit extreme, don't you think? I certainly don't have any problems and many others I know don't either. And there are those who have had replacement lenses and seem to be happy now.

The E-3's AF system and the new SWD AF mechanism are very sophisticated and, admittedly, complicated.

There are so many options - release priority modes, AF point sensitivity, more AF points, and the change from fly by wire to all-time mechanically linked focus control amount to a lot of differences from previous Olympus DSLRs and lenses. Maybe the system is too complex; so that would be a fair criticism, but is it really a case of getting to understand the system and making the best use of it rather than it being faulty? I wonder.

Ian

Ian - I do not just have a problem on how to use the camera - the camera is dead - it does not work - it does not communicate with the lenses - however one can be persuaded to accept this as part of progress if the post sales experience is good - however I was initially told by the guys and gals on the Oly Helpline to return the camera for a swap.

What has happened is that camera is now on an extended vacation in Portugal awaiting repair - I have been told that I should get it back in about 2 weeks.

I handed the camera in to the dealer over two weeks ago.

That a brand new flagship camera should be held for so long for a repair is an example of absolute contempt of the customer by Olympus.

Did they not train up and staff up to repair the initial rush of faulty cameras? Why did they not set up a fast path repair process for failed E3s? Or did they expect the non complaining UK customer to stand in line and wait patiently for their turn to come.

This is rubbish post sales support of the customer.



There have been reports elsewhere that similar problems in the US have been resolved by swapping or repairing the camera and back to the owner within a week.

If US Olympus can achieve this type of performance why cannot Oly UK achieve similar levels of service.

PeterD
17th February 2008, 10:43 AM
Ian - I do not just have a problem on how to use the camera - the camera is dead - it does not work - it does not communicate with the lenses - however one can be persuaded to accept this as part of progress if the post sales experience is good - however I was initially told by the guys and gals on the Oly Helpline to return the camera for a swap.

What has happened is that camera is now on an extended vacation in Portugal awaiting repair - I have been told that I should get it back in about 2 weeks.

I handed the camera in to the dealer over two weeks ago.

That a brand new flagship camera should be held for so long for a repair is an example of absolute contempt of the customer by Olympus.

Did they not train up and staff up to repair the initial rush of faulty cameras? Why did they not set up a fast path repair process for failed E3s? Or did they expect the non complaining UK customer to stand in line and wait patiently for their turn to come.

This is rubbish post sales support of the customer.

There have been reports elsewhere that similar problems in the US have been resolved by swapping or repairing the camera and back to the owner within a week.

If US Olympus can achieve this type of performance why cannot Oly UK achieve similar levels of service.

Derek,

I do understand your sentiments and it was not too long ago I was expressing similar frustrations. Since then, I have had both camera body and 12-60 lens replaced directly by Oly UK. It seems that Oly EU had recommended a similar course of action for you. In my case I passed this information to Oly UK and they agreed to a swap without any argument.
Just thought I would add this personal experience to the thread.

PeterD

DerekW
17th February 2008, 11:03 AM
Peter - No cameras to swap with mine

Did your original lens serial number come in the range highlighted as faulty?

ptomsu
17th February 2008, 11:11 AM
There have been reports elsewhere that similar problems in the US have been resolved by swapping or repairing the camera and back to the owner within a week.

If US Olympus can achieve this type of performance why cannot Oly UK achieve similar levels of service.

I think it is not an issue of Olympus UK, I would rather see this an issue of Olympus Europe.

I would have kept my E-3, if I would have had any positive feedback from Olympus. But just having no idea and neglecting the issues I had was just too much.

So this i another example where a vendor can demonstrate how to handle issues. And this was by no means professional. I also have a Leica M8 and maybe many of you are aware what issues Leica ha in the beginning with IR sensitivity ad fine adjustment of camera and lenses. But they really tried hard from the beginning, communicating very openly and friendly to their customers.

And this made lot of buyers stay and keep their cameras. So I am today a happy M8 user. I could be the same with the E-3, if I would have noticed any reactions of Olympus Austria/Europe.

PeterD
17th February 2008, 11:46 AM
Peter - No cameras to swap with mine

Did your original lens serial number come in the range highlighted as faulty?

Derek

Sorry to hear that. I must have been lucky then.

Yes, my old lens was listed which gives me more confidence.

The problem with my original camera was not a focus issue, it was mirror lockup. Only happened once and switching off/on cleared it. I did get feedback on this. The tech people confirmed the fault and offered me a repair. I already had a relacement camera so I did not need to do anything.

PeterD

OlyFlyer
17th February 2008, 12:03 PM
The thing is if I and others let statements like this go by, then other readers will believe you, and you become an "expert". I would like to understand how you can say its in every camera. What research have you undertaken?

Over on www.fourthirdsphoto.com, Tony Spore has a poll on this issue - 75% say they do not have this issue - what insight do you have that allows you to believe and state they must be wrong?

If Tony's survey is representative than it is really scary. In a pro camera, 25% of the users have problems. Yes, of the 25% many may be user errors, take half of that away and you still have 12%, which is unacceptably high. My guess is that half of the 75% don't care and just write OOF images off as their own fault, the other half don't want to spend time to test the camera properly. Of course, there may be a few who don't have the problem, but I actually doubt that.

As for my insights on what makes me believe this is true, I want to keep them for myself and a closer circuit for a while.

Clearly messers Wrotniak and Foster have it upside down in their reviews of this camera - they missed this huge issue!!What makes you believe they are more right than I am? If they could send me a perfect camera I could tell (and show) if they have missed this issue or not. I would like to proof that I am wrong, but the problem is that this issue turns up all the time, not because of trolls and incompetent people, but because there is a problem.

I took some shots a while back in a nature reserve. I spotted a swan and cygnet swimming along past some trees and took some images - blow me if they weren't out of focus. But whilst I thought I had a clear view, obviously one of the focus points had locked on to a branch/twig. Very annoying - yes. But did I run to the nearest PC to complain on my favourite forum? Did I send my camera back? Well no - I switched focus points, and carried on.If life was so simple... Anyway, all pre E-3 cameras had only ONE single useful AF point, so I never really switched focus point before the E-3.

What you describe is one of the problems. Makes no difference if a single point is used, the camera can not handle the focus. I only use single focus point and small sensitivity, which is the only useful mode. Selecting all 11 points is just asking for trouble, never know where focus will be.

S**t happens - you or the camera locks on the wrong point and its not in focus. The camera does not know what it is you are trying to focus on all the time - you have to tell it. What we need to do is be aware of the possibilities, and be prepared to change our methods to get a particular shot - get back in control.Thank you for your advice, even if it shows you clearly have no idea about my shooting style. I understood that BEFORE I bought my E-500 two years ago. That's the reason for why I only use single point, small sensitivity. I bet 99% don't even know the difference between Normal and Small sensitivity. I belong to the 1%.

That incident was with an E-1, with its total of 3 focus points - if we can miss shots with that system, then we can miss them on a camera with 11. But don't say its the fault of the camera - AF systems are not foolproof.

MarkThat incident is repeatable with the E-3, without branches in between the swan and the camera. The E-3 can not handle that. No, you are wrong. S**t happens, but I am talking about controlled environment s**t, no random.

Anyway, no more details, I must discuss with Oly first.

PeterD
17th February 2008, 12:07 PM
I think it is not an issue of Olympus UK, I would rather see this an issue of Olympus Europe.

I would have kept my E-3, if I would have had any positive feedback from Olympus. But just having no idea and neglecting the issues I had was just too much.

So this i another example where a vendor can demonstrate how to handle issues. And this was by no means professional. I also have a Leica M8 and maybe many of you are aware what issues Leica ha in the beginning with IR sensitivity ad fine adjustment of camera and lenses. But they really tried hard from the beginning, communicating very openly and friendly to their customers.

And this made lot of buyers stay and keep their cameras. So I am today a happy M8 user. I could be the same with the E-3, if I would have noticed any reactions of Olympus Austria/Europe.

Hi Peter,

At the time of your first postings I would and did agree with your view that support and feedback was poor. Things have changed now. Feedback is reasonably prompt. Technical advice from the support line is no longer defensive. I know it is hard for you to gauge this as you no longer own an E3. I think that Olympus were stunned by the feedback they were getting and, if you read some of the other threads, took steps to address it.

I am not just doggedly promoting Olympus as you will see from some of my earlier posts. I have e-mailed them appealing for a change in approach as I could see where it was leading. I am not the only one holding these views and making these appeals and claim no credit from doing so.

I am glad that you have now a camera that you enjoy using and wish you well and hope you have every success with it. I think it is time to move on and get back to enjoying our favourite past-time of taking photos. I would be interested in seeing your images with the new camera. I was born in Wien (Klosterneuberg) and would love to see your images of Austria.

Kind regards

PeterD

OlyFlyer
17th February 2008, 12:14 PM
I'm genuinely sorry for the (apparently) small number of people that have had problems, but to suggest that everyone has the problem is a bit extreme, don't you think? I certainly don't have any problems and many others I know don't either. And there are those who have had replacement lenses and seem to be happy now.

The E-3's AF system and the new SWD AF mechanism are very sophisticated and, admittedly, complicated.

There are so many options - release priority modes, AF point sensitivity, more AF points, and the change from fly by wire to all-time mechanically linked focus control amount to a lot of differences from previous Olympus DSLRs and lenses. Maybe the system is too complex; so that would be a fair criticism, but is it really a case of getting to understand the system and making the best use of it rather than it being faulty? I wonder.

IanUnfortunatelly, complexity is not the problem here. Please don't write off everything with user error and technical complexity. I have a perfect understanding on how the E-3 AF system works and the problem I am talking about has nothing to do with the 12-60. It is one thing that the 12-60 has an error as well, but so has the E-3. If it is fixable via firmware or not, is a different question. Onece again, the problem I am talking about is not even lens related, it is there with EVERY lens, but more clearly visible with the faster ones. Not even related to longer zooms, even the 40-150 displays the focus problem.

I would welcome to test one of the "perfect" cameras, unfortunatelly I can not keep on buying more bodies until I find a perfect one, if there is any.

Nick Temple-Fry
17th February 2008, 12:41 PM
The argument that there is an inherent focussing problem with the E-3 fails because the protagonists fail to demonstrate

1) a set of reproduceable characteristics/circumstances in which the problem occurs.

2) a common definition of how the problem affects an image, which can be applied to an image and can be used to assess whether it falls within the 'family' of this 'problem'.

At the moment the culpability for the failure is on the protagonists of the view that there is an inherent problem. Those that have that view have not presented an argument of sufficient strength to sustain their position.

I will continue to follow this debate with interest, and continue to sympathise with those who feel they have problems with the focussing systems.

But please, if you wish to state there is an inherent fault, do the work necessary to sustain that argument and then share that work for the purposes of 'peer' review.

Nick

art frames
17th February 2008, 01:19 PM
The argument that there is an inherent focussing problem with the E-3 fails because the protagonists fail to demonstrate

1) a set of reproduceable characteristics/circumstances in which the problem occurs.

2) a common definition of how the problem affects an image, which can be applied to an image and can be used to assess whether it falls within the 'family' of this 'problem'.

At the moment the culpability for the failure is on the protagonists of the view that there is an inherent problem. Those that have that view have not presented an argument of sufficient strength to sustain their position.

I will continue to follow this debate with interest, and continue to sympathise with those who feel they have problems with the focussing systems.

But please, if you wish to state there is an inherent fault, do the work necessary to sustain that argument and then share that work for the purposes of 'peer' review.

Nick

Nick

This is a reasonable point of view to have if you have a good camera.

My first E3 and 12-60 were both faulty. It was stressful but I did prove to Digital Depot that they were. They replicated the fault very easily and we agreed a swap I think they acted very well considering. It has taken me a while to get over that experience.

At the time I had very little experience of a good E3 (just Ian's London James Bond event) so I do understand why it feels like this is a widespread issue when you are in that place. In the midst of the problem it is very stressful and you grasp at the hope that Olympus will do something that will solve this. It is a significant amount of money that was a discretionary spend and I was worried. I feel for all people in that place - I'd expect upset and anger to be in their minds along with the hope that tomorrow something will change.

My latest E3 has also had some focus issues which I think I can put down to the 12-60 replacement which was also in the faulty batch (and will need to be checked) and/or technique. I'm happy to do that because I don't want the system to be faulty as that will be even more hassle.

I believe the usefulness of discussion around this issue is very limited. I would like to offer those with issues some empathy. It is upsetting and the best advice I had was from those kind folk that got me to go back to the supplier and say it was faulty and get a replacement or refund. It was, and is the best advice.

good luck to those affected.

Peter

Jim Ford
17th February 2008, 01:19 PM
Bang-on Nick. Some of us need to keep steady heads around here!

There's a strange sense of mystery - a 'I know something you don't know', air to Olyflyer's postings on the subject!

As I've previously mentioned, the subject has also seems to have generated a certain amount of hysteria across various forums on this and other sites, a bit like an epidemic where everyone is worrying about minor twinges and looking at their tongues in the mirror - 'OMG - I think I've got it!'.

Jim

OlyFlyer
17th February 2008, 08:45 PM
Bang-on Nick. Some of us need to keep steady heads around here!

There's a strange sense of mystery - a 'I know something you don't know', air to Olyflyer's postings on the subject!

As I've previously mentioned, the subject has also seems to have generated a certain amount of hysteria across various forums on this and other sites, a bit like an epidemic where everyone is worrying about minor twinges and looking at their tongues in the mirror - 'OMG - I think I've got it!'.

JimI honestly regret I said anything here. Anyway, I think I understand perfectly all the problems. I am not interested in starting a revolution, that's why I will not go into details. If it sounds like a game of 'I know something you don't know', well so be it. I am sure Olympus is going to handle the problem in a professional way.

When I placed my order, I knew all about the problems discussed on the Internet. Of course, I was hoping everybody else was wrong and only user errors and a very few bad samples existed. Now I know that is not the case. Just to make it clear, I did not regret my move to buy the E-3. Once the problem is fixed I know I will love the camera. I trust the excellent service Olympus provides, and I am comfortable to discuss the problem with them, and also know they will solve it the way I want.

OlyFlyer
17th February 2008, 09:03 PM
The argument that there is an inherent focussing problem with the E-3 fails because the protagonists fail to demonstrate

1) a set of reproduceable characteristics/circumstances in which the problem occurs.

2) a common definition of how the problem affects an image, which can be applied to an image and can be used to assess whether it falls within the 'family' of this 'problem'.

At the moment the culpability for the failure is on the protagonists of the view that there is an inherent problem. Those that have that view have not presented an argument of sufficient strength to sustain their position.

I will continue to follow this debate with interest, and continue to sympathise with those who feel they have problems with the focussing systems.

But please, if you wish to state there is an inherent fault, do the work necessary to sustain that argument and then share that work for the purposes of 'peer' review.

NickWell, I hate to say it, both your points 1 and 2 are well documented in my computer.

As for the arguing part, I think I start a bit more professionally and contact Olympus directly. At this moment I see no reason to argue on any forum. As a matter of fact, if my camera would be OK, maybe I would share your views. Now, I just say you have no idea what you are talking about. Well, actually, not even if my camera would be OK I would share your views actually. Why? Because I am too old and I have learned people are not hysteric and stupid. Even if my camera would work, it can be that:


I did not test it the same way
I am not using it the same way
I am not interested to find out
I am affraid to find a problem since it will not justify the spending in that case
There may be some other people who know more than me
There may be some people who have higher requirements than me

...and so on. Regardless how it is, I would never tell others they are wrong unless I really can proof it, and AFAIK, you can't proof I am wrong. Maybe later, if Ian changes the policy for posting images I will post some images and the "how to..." part, but I first want to see how Olypus reacts and must get my camera fixed before going deeper into discussions.

PeterD
17th February 2008, 10:53 PM
Well, I hate to say it, both your points 1 and 2 are well documented in my computer.

As for the arguing part, I think I start a bit more professionally and contact Olympus directly. At this moment I see no reason to argue on any forum. As a matter of fact, if my camera would be OK, maybe I would share your views. Now, I just say you have no idea what you are talking about. Well, actually, not even if my camera would be OK I would share your views actually. Why? Because I am too old and I have learned people are not hysteric and stupid. Even if my camera would work, it can be that:

I did not test it the same way
I am not using it the same way
I am not interested to find out
I am affraid to find a problem since it will not justify the spending in that case
There may be some other people who know more than me
There may be some people who have higher requirements than me...and so on. Regardless how it is, I would never tell others they are wrong unless I really can proof it, and AFAIK, you can't proof I am wrong. Maybe later, if Ian changes the policy for posting images I will post some images and the "how to..." part, but I first want to see how Olypus reacts and must get my camera fixed before going deeper into discussions.

Hi OlyFlyer

I think you are approaching this in the right way but its a shame that your general thoughts are public. There has been enough hysteria generated, no not from you but from others.
The problem of giving some information is that this will lead to demands for more. Speak to Olympus as you intend and I, like you, am sure that if there is an issue to address it will be taken up. Instant answers are rarely available and rushed solutions lead to tears.
When you have had the chance to speak to Olympus and when you think it appropriate, I certainly would like to be updated whichever way it goes.

Good luck

PeterD

Nick Temple-Fry
18th February 2008, 12:10 AM
Well, I hate to say it, both your points 1 and 2 are well documented in my computer.

As for the arguing part, I think I start a bit more professionally and contact Olympus directly. At this moment I see no reason to argue on any forum. As a matter of fact, if my camera would be OK, maybe I would share your views. Now, I just say you have no idea what you are talking about. Well, actually, not even if my camera would be OK I would share your views actually. Why? Because I am too old and I have learned people are not hysteric and stupid. Even if my camera would work, it can be that:


I did not test it the same way
I am not using it the same way
I am not interested to find out
I am affraid to find a problem since it will not justify the spending in that case
There may be some other people who know more than me
There may be some people who have higher requirements than me

...and so on. Regardless how it is, I would never tell others they are wrong unless I really can proof it, and AFAIK, you can't proof I am wrong. Maybe later, if Ian changes the policy for posting images I will post some images and the "how to..." part, but I first want to see how Olypus reacts and must get my camera fixed before going deeper into discussions.

OlyFlyer

I'm reluctant to respond as anything I say may seem like pouring burning oil on water that should already be calm.

You are of course correct that the evidence you have that your individual camera has problems with AF should be presented to Olympus, I hope that you do that.

I used the term argument in its traditional and proper english sense and that is a series of points, with supporting facts, that seek to prove a contention (or point of view). I am aware that latter day usage has given argument the same meaning as row or fight, I had hoped that the context in which I used the word argument made my intention clear, if it did not then I apologise.

As to your list of points, well the first two are just a restatement of my request for those who believe there is an inherent fault to adequately define the circumstances in which it occurs.

The third is insulting and should not be on this group.

Ditto I'm afraid for the fourth.

I'll happily agree to the fifth, no one in this group has been appointed expert; we are all just enthusiasts trying to learn from each other (and I hope I remain an enthusiast who is learning till the day I die).

As to the sixth - well I've always regarded low hanging fruit to be as desirable as low women who hang out. Yes other people may have other requirements, but that is merely points 1 and 2 restated in a more contentious way.

What saddens me most is that my post was not an attack on any individual, or their expertise, nor was it a denial that there may be issues with either individual or a set of cameras; I have difficulty in understanding why you read it in the way you apparently did, but if you did then you, and the group, have my apology.

Nick

OlyFlyer
18th February 2008, 10:03 AM
OlyFlyer

I'm reluctant to respond as anything I say may seem like pouring burning oil on water that should already be calm.

You are of course correct that the evidence you have that your individual camera has problems with AF should be presented to Olympus, I hope that you do that.

I used the term argument in its traditional and proper english sense and that is a series of points, with supporting facts, that seek to prove a contention (or point of view). I am aware that latter day usage has given argument the same meaning as row or fight, I had hoped that the context in which I used the word argument made my intention clear, if it did not then I apologise.

As to your list of points, well the first two are just a restatement of my request for those who believe there is an inherent fault to adequately define the circumstances in which it occurs.

The third is insulting and should not be on this group.

Ditto I'm afraid for the fourth.

I'll happily agree to the fifth, no one in this group has been appointed expert; we are all just enthusiasts trying to learn from each other (and I hope I remain an enthusiast who is learning till the day I die).

As to the sixth - well I've always regarded low hanging fruit to be as desirable as low women who hang out. Yes other people may have other requirements, but that is merely points 1 and 2 restated in a more contentious way.

What saddens me most is that my post was not an attack on any individual, or their expertise, nor was it a denial that there may be issues with either individual or a set of cameras; I have difficulty in understanding why you read it in the way you apparently did, but if you did then you, and the group, have my apology.

Nick Hi Nick,

My aim was not to attack your post, more to describe how different people react when they hear about problems. Indeed there are a whole lot of people belonging to my points 3 or/and 4, the oystrich type, sticking heads in the sand and happy as long as they don't see a problem, and when somebody shows them they just neglect and refuse to see it. I think this is very normal human behavoir, since we can not cope with all the possible problems we can get in one single day, so we have to filter out some of the possible issue in life. Different people filter out different things, and I am not judging anybody for what they filter out. There is also a great many people who must justify any investment so, for some of them it is a kind of failure to have to admit they don't have the perfect whatever it is they expected to have; a car, a home, a TV set, a camera and so on. That justification can be just for oneself, or in some cases even for others, like a manager or a family member. I was working hard the last nine days trying to proof I was wrong about the E-3. I tried to find out what I was doing wrong, why so many problems in my images with such a nice camera. Unfortunately I failed and instead I have identified that my problems are systematicly repeatable, which is good I think.

By keep on saying what I have seen is only valid for my individual camera, well, that is the oystrich behavoir if you ask me. Of course, I will never have proof that the problem is in 100% of the E-3 since I will not be able to test 100% of the bodies, nor am I interested to do it. However, I would be happy to test one of the perfect ones, but even that is impossible since nobody is interested to send me theirs, and I can not keep on buying new camera bodies.

As for the low hanging fruit being the most desirable, that may be true if reachability from ground is part of the equation. But if we would ask birds or apes I am sure they would disagree because the high hanging fruits have the best taste and are most mature.

Cheers
OlyFlyer

OlyFlyer
18th February 2008, 10:20 PM
This afternoon I forever parted from my E-3. I spoke to Oly earlier today and sent them my findings together with a few images. The very quick verdict was that my camera is a DOA and is to be changed. So I packed everything and sent it back to them.

I hope the next one will be the perfect E-3 some people are talking about. At least now I won't need more than a few hours to identify the problems I had with my number one E-3.

Anyway, I will not sell out. I am still very happy with the way Oly Sweden threated me so far.