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View Full Version : The Peugeot Diesel Pollutant Saga


Harold Gough
2nd February 2017, 11:49 AM
This has the potential to have a long-running story, maybe a book or film. At any rate, it is going to be an expensive production. (Serial rights copyright!).

The photographic relevance, so far anyway is zero. So maybe it will broaden your mind (and will definitely shrink my bank balance).
In June 2014 I purchased a Peugeot 307 2 litre Peugeot 307 estate. Why?

1) My Cavalier was in its 30th year and was unlikely to last much longer.

2) The Peugeot was from a family member who had owned it from new (as with my Cavalier)

3) It had only 4,700 miles on the clock and the price was £2,300.

4) The wisdom *laugh*laugh*laugh from the government was that diesels were less polluting than petrol cars and would be favoured.

Not long after I started running it, I was off on a local trip when there was a “Ping” and a warning came up on the digital dashboard display “Blocked Fuel Filter” together with a little yellow diagram of an engine (in case I didn’t know what an engine was). I aborted my journey, fearing that the computer might soon stop the engine, and returned home to consult the internet.

I learned that a motorway-speed steady drive of 20+ minutes was needed for some additive in the fuel system to be brought into action and burn off any blocking residues. I dutifully complied, not being sure that I would get that far.

As the months passed, I got accustomed to these warning flashing up every week. I found that, if I kept driving, they went away. So, no need for motorway trips! Clearly, the magic fluid was doing its work.

This week, the day before the MOT, the warning came on again. I had a vague concern that this might just tip the emissions out of compliance.

I delivered my car at 8.30 am. There was no phone call from the garage that morning. As I had booked a service to follow the MOT, it seemed that all was going well. Then the call came.

Not only had it failed on emissions but they had to remove 4 litres of excess engine oil before they could work on it. A code had indicated that the additive tank for the filter cleaning was empty. My garage lacked the special tools to access the tank so I would have to take it to a Peugeot dealer.:eek::eek::eek:

When I collected the car, I was asked about the excess oil. I had no answer and, jokingly, suggested that the engine had pumped fuel in there.

I went home and contacted the only Peugeot dealer in town. I tried to speak to the servicing department but could only get an offer to call me back. (I was told they were having an extremely busy day). After an hour, I phoned again to see if they had forgotten me. No luck.

After a further hour, I phoned again and got through to someone who apologised, explaining that they were on man short. I described my problem and, very much to my surprise, he offered me a wide choice of times/days to book my car in, with me opting for two days later.

This was for a computer diagnosis, to cost just under £100. Depending on the outcome of that, they would then order the fluid for the additive tank.

I did some more research this morning and found that I should have seen error messages for the additive getting low and then one for it being empty. In the complete absence of these, I called back and asked them to check for a dysfunctional sensor. I also, having read horror stories* asked them to check for fuel in the engine oil.

*I have read complaints that a failed filter cleaning cycle has led to fuel being forced “into the engine”

I have seen comments on the internet about a tank refill requiring 5L at £30/L. Oh, joy!

This system has been described, in various places, as the biggest load of merde ever designed.

That is the current state of play. More news on Friday.

Harold

joglos
2nd February 2017, 12:23 PM
I was talking to a reputable car salesman the other day, he said that diesel cars after 2009 have a system that really needs it to be driven at least 9000 miles a year otherwise problems will happen like you have stated, he said they get loads in with the problem. I was looking for a car for a friend who does less miles than that, so i guess she will have to get a petrol.
Really hope yours is sorted quickly and at not too much expense.

lostp
2nd February 2017, 12:31 PM
Is it not under warranty if you purchased it in 2914? Or was it second hand?

I think the additive that you are referring to is Adblue :)

Olybirder
2nd February 2017, 12:34 PM
Is it not under warranty if you purchased it in 2914? Or was it second hand?As it cost £2,300 I suspect it was second hand. :)

Ron

Olybirder
2nd February 2017, 12:41 PM
When I bought my present car I decided to get a petrol powered model, despite having had a diesel before, as I only drive about 7,000 miles a year now. I had read too many horror stories about DPF problems arising from low mileage use. My previous diesel was too old to have a DPF, so the mileage wasn't an issue.

I prefer the quicker warm up time of the petrol car but miss the torque and slightly better mpg of the diesel.

Ron

pdk42
2nd February 2017, 12:56 PM
The additive is not Adblu, but something called Eolys. Adblu is basically Urea solution and is used as part of a selective reduction catalytic converter process - which is designed to reduce NOx levels by turning them back to N2. Adblu is injected into the cat, not the engine. Eolys OTOH is designed to reduced particulates by improving combustion in the cylinder so it's added to the fuel each time you fill up.

If the Eolys is depleted, then you'll clog up your DPF which will need long runs to clear it and in the longer term probably force an early replacement. None of this should cause fuel to get into the engine oil - that's a much more serious issue.

Harold Gough
2nd February 2017, 01:01 PM
I was talking to a reputable car salesman the other day, he said that diesel cars after 2009 have a system that really needs it to be driven at least 9000 miles a year otherwise problems will happen like you have stated, he said they get loads in with the problem. I was looking for a car for a friend who does less miles than that, so i guess she will have to get a petrol.
Really hope yours is sorted quickly and at not too much expense.

I do just over 1,000 mpa.

I was planning to drive it one holidays to mainland Europe but my wife was nervous about travel when she was put under treatment for heart problems but this year could be the year.

Harold

Harold Gough
2nd February 2017, 01:03 PM
Is it not under warranty if you purchased it in 2914? Or was it second hand?

I think the additive that you are referring to is Adblue :)

2) The Peugeot was from a family member who had owned it from new "

Harold

Naughty Nigel
2nd February 2017, 01:04 PM
Hmmm.

JLR had problems with some earlier diesel engines (specifically the 2.7 litre V6) when these were first fitted with a DPF system. The engine and DPF system was developed by Ford in conjunction with Jaguar and Land Rover (then owned by Ford), Citroen, Peugeot and others.

The DPF system is of course designed to remove particulate matter from the exhaust gasses. When this become full it is effectively 'regenerated' by injecting diesel fuel oil during the exhaust stroke which in turn burns the sooty deposits that have collected in the DPF. Add Blue is a sticky material which improves the efficiency of the filtration process.

The DPF system works well, but the DPF needs to regenerate at a reasonable speed, not in nose to tail traffic. There have also been numerous reported problems where 'failed regenerations' result in fuel oil finding its way into the crankcase. This is what seems to have happened in your case. The main worry is that the fuel oil (diesel) will have diluted the lubrication oil in the crank case, resulting in accelerated wear.

I had several free oil changes on JLR's account because the oil level had risen above the Maximum mark!

JLR overcame the problem by updating software in the engine's ECU, although the advice to this day is not to fill the engine to the maximum mark to allow space for some fuel oil.

I only cover about 6,000 miles per year in my car, but these are mainly long journeys. I have never seen a DPF warning yet.

Harold Gough
2nd February 2017, 01:04 PM
As it cost £2,300 I suspect it was second hand. :)

Ron

"2) The Peugeot was from a family member who had owned it from new "

Harold

Harold Gough
2nd February 2017, 01:06 PM
The additive is not Adblu, but something called Eolys. Adblu is basically Urea solution and is used as part of a selective reduction catalytic converter process - which is designed to reduce NOx levels by turning them back to N2. Adblu is injected into the cat, not the engine. Eolys OTOH is designed to reduced particulates by improving combustion in the cylinder so it's added to the fuel each time you fill up.

If the Eolys is depleted, then you'll clog up your DPF which will need long runs to clear it and in the longer term probably force an early replacement. None of this should cause fuel to get into the engine oil - that's a much more serious issue.

The service department man I spoke to seemed to think that which additive it was for that model was far from obvious but that may have been misleading.

Harold

steverh
2nd February 2017, 01:07 PM
I changed from a pre-2009 diesel to a petrol car just over a year ago. I was due for a change and decided against diesel for a number of reasons:

1. The sort of pollutants that diesels emit are no longer acceptable if you live and mainly drive in an urban environment, as I do.

2. Modern petrol engines are very efficient and you need to do a huge amount of miles to recoup the extra cost of a diesel car despite the better mpg. I'm now retired and doing less miles per year.

3. Long term reliability might be better (I hope!)

I was concerned about lack of torque but the modern three cylinder turbo petrol engines are very good.

Harold Gough
2nd February 2017, 01:11 PM
Hmmm.

JLR had problems with some earlier diesel engines (specifically the 2.7 litre V6) when these were first fitted with a DPF system. The engine and DPF system was developed by Ford in conjunction with Jaguar and Land Rover (then owned by Ford), Citroen, Peugeot and others.

The DPF system is of course designed to remove particulate matter from the exhaust gasses. When this become full it is effectively 'regenerated' by injecting diesel fuel oil during the exhaust stroke which in turn burns the sooty deposits that have collected in the DPF. Add Blue is a sticky material which improves the efficiency of the filtration process.

The DPF system works well, but the DPF needs to regenerate at a reasonable speed, not in nose to tail traffic. There have also been numerous reported problems where 'failed regenerations' result in fuel oil finding its way into the crankcase. This is what seems to have happened in your case. The main worry is that the fuel oil (diesel) will have diluted the lubrication oil in the crank case, resulting in accelerated wear.

I had several free oil changes on JLR's account because the oil level had risen above the Maximum mark!

JLR overcame the problem by updating software in the engine's ECU, although the advice to this day is not to fill the engine to the maximum mark to allow space for some fuel oil.

I only cover about 6,000 miles per year in my car, but these are mainly long journeys. I have never seen a DPF warning yet.

Thanks Nigel.

I almost never travel in nose to tail traffic. About half my journeys would be at 30mph and half at 50-60mph. None of there are long. In the warmer months I would have a few longer (10 miles+EW) trips at the higher speeds.

Harold

Harold Gough
2nd February 2017, 01:13 PM
I was concerned about lack of torque but the modern three cylinder turbo petrol engines are very good.

Were you towing? I have never had an issue with power in a petrol car, typically a 1600.

Harold

steverh
2nd February 2017, 01:26 PM
Were you towing? I have never had an issue with power in a petrol car, typically a 1600.

Harold

No, but I liked the relaxed style of driving without lots of gear changing (never been one for automatics).

Harold Gough
2nd February 2017, 01:31 PM
No, but I liked the relaxed style of driving without lots of gear changing (never been one for automatics).

That reminds me: Second gear in the Peugeot is almost redundant. It doesn't like it in very slow traffic and third copes very well at slightly higher speeds.

Harold

Harold Gough
2nd February 2017, 01:36 PM
Thanks for the replies, everyone.

I don't buy the 9,000 (or whatever) mpa, but I do accept that a reasonable proportion of journeys of a few miles at motorway speeds seems to be a good management regime.

I will just have to find a second regular pub, this one at a suitable distance from home. It's a nuisance but it has to be done. *chr

Harold

Naughty Nigel
2nd February 2017, 01:54 PM
1. The sort of pollutants that diesels emit are no longer acceptable if you live and mainly drive in an urban environment, as I do.

This is true, but diesel is much safer as a fuel owing to its much higher flashpoint and lower flammability.

I certainly wouldn't want to keep a petrol powered vehicle in an integral garage!

I also remain unconvinced by the particulate argument, as the amount of particulate matter that escapes from DPF systems is minute. The exhaust tailpipes on my last car (a V6 diesel) were as clean as the day I bought it after about 85,000 miles. Particulate matter reported at every MOT test was 'zero'.

I suspect the problems relate to the large number of older diesel vehicles that were never fitted with DPF systems, and the small number of irresponsible owners who remove the DPF and other emissions control equipment from newer vehicles.

Every now and again one sees older and/or poorly maintained diesel vehicles (usually clapped out Ford Mondeos and Transit vans) belching out clouds of smoke. These probably cause more pollution than several thousand properly maintained vehicles with DPF systems working properly.

Naughty Nigel
2nd February 2017, 02:14 PM
Thanks Nigel.

I almost never travel in nose to tail traffic. About half my journeys would be at 30mph and half at 50-60mph. None of there are long. In the warmer months I would have a few longer (10 miles+EW) trips at the higher speeds.

Harold

That could be your problem. DPF systems do need to be driven at sustained speeds of 30 MPH or more for three or four miles to regenerate properly.

They are also programmed not to regenerate until the engine has reached 'normal' operating temperature.

The fact is that diesel engines are very efficient, and so are slow to warm up. I have no idea how long my present car takes to warm up as JLR no longer thinks it necessary to fit temperature gauges, (these are known in the trade as 'comfort gauges'), but my last car could take ten miles to reach 90 °C in the winter, even with the benefit of the little oil central heating boiler under the bonnet!

I therefore think it likely that your engine rarely reaches the necessary temperature for a DPF regeneration to be triggered.

It may be worthwhile contacting a local Terraclean agent to see whether he can clean your system out. It would almost certainly be cheaper than a new DPF or Peugeot repair service.

pdk42
2nd February 2017, 02:17 PM
This is true, but diesel is much safer as a fuel owing to its much higher flashpoint and lower flammability.

I certainly wouldn't want to keep a petrol powered vehicle in an integral garage!

I also remain unconvinced by the particulate argument, as the amount of particulate matter that escapes from DPF systems is minute. The exhaust tailpipes on my last car (a V6 diesel) were as clean as the day I bought it after about 85,000 miles. Particulate matter reported at every MOT test was 'zero'.

I suspect the problems relate to the large number of older diesel vehicles that were never fitted with DPF systems, and the small number of irresponsible owners who remove the DPF and other emissions control equipment from newer vehicles.

Every now and again one sees older and/or poorly maintained diesel vehicles (usually clapped out Ford Mondeos and Transit vans) belching out clouds of smoke. These probably cause more pollution than several thousand properly maintained vehicles with DPF systems working properly.

It's not just the particulates that are the problem. NOx emissions are as big a problem, if not bigger. NOx is a by-product of the high temperatures at which diesel engine combustion occurs due to N2 and O2 reacting together. It needs removing via a reduction process (converting the NOx back to N2). There are two types of cat to do this - one of which needs Adblu, the other doesn't. The Adblu approach is the more reliable, but at the cost of needing another reservoir to be filled. Unlike Eolys, Adblu is (should be!) fairly cheap.

In either case, the writing is on the wall for diesels. The manufacturers are moving back to efficient petrol engines, often as part of an electric hybrid system. I suspect by 2025 there will be a lot of pure electric cars on the road too. Diesel is dead in the long term for passenger cars.

Harold Gough
2nd February 2017, 02:18 PM
I also remain unconvinced by the particulate argument, as the amount of particulate matter that escapes from DPF systems is minute. The exhaust tailpipes on my last car (a V6 diesel) were as clean as the day I bought it after about 85,000 miles. Particulate matter reported at every MOT test was 'zero'.

The real problem is the intense and extensive urbanisation of our cities and larger towns. Where you get constant stationary queues for traffic alongside cyclists and pedestrians there will be serious effects on health. Even so, I doubt if the damage is anything like the smoke-filled rooms (pubs, restaurants, socila centres, etc.) of a few decades ago.

As for proposed legilation, I found this recently:

Stationary idling is an offence under section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

The Act enforces rule 123 of the Highway Code which states: "You must not leave a vehicle engine running unnecessarily while that vehicle is stationary on a public road."

And doing this can incur a £20 fixed-penalty fine under the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) Regulations 2002. This goes up to £40 if unpaid within a given time frame.

Of course, it doesn't mean you've got to cut your engine at every red light: you are allowed to leave your engine running if you're stationary in traffic or diagnosing faults".

Harold

pdk42
2nd February 2017, 02:20 PM
Add Blue is a sticky material which improves the efficiency of the filtration process.



I don't think that's right Nigel. Adblu is urea and it's used as part of selective catalytic reduction process in the exhaust system:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction

Otto
2nd February 2017, 02:32 PM
I had a diesel for two years, covered about 17000 miles, and never had a DPF warning. I live in a rural area so most journeys are plenty long enough to warm the car up properly. However, a year ago I changed to a petrol version of the same model because I thought it likely that time would be called on diesel cars and I wanted shot of it while it was still worth something! The petrol costs a bit more on fuel but is a much more refined vehicle and I don't regret the change. Sorry to hear of your woes Harold, I hope it's sorted quickly and without too much expense.

Harold Gough
2nd February 2017, 02:32 PM
That could be your problem. DPF systems do need to be driven at sustained speeds of 30 MPH or more for three or four miles to regenerate properly.

They are also programmed not to regenerate until the engine has reached 'normal' operating temperature.

The fact is that diesel engines are very efficient, and so are slow to warm up. I have no idea how long my present car takes to warm up as JLR no longer thinks it necessary to fit temperature gauges, (these are known in the trade as 'comfort gauges'), but my last car could take ten miles to reach 90 °C in the winter, even with the benefit of the little oil central heating boiler under the bonnet!

I therefore think it likely that your engine rarely reaches the necessary temperature for a DPF regeneration to be triggered.

It may be worthwhile contacting a local Terraclean agent to see whether he can clean your system out. It would almost certainly be cheaper than a new DPF or Peugeot repair service.

Nigel,

That's interesting. 30mph for 3-4 miles is much different from the 50-60mph for 25 minutes I have seen elsewhere.

The slow warm-up is certainly the case. I have to drive at least 2 miles at town traffic speeds for any air warm enough to improve comfort is available, although about half the distance will clear the inside of the screen. In this model they fitted some addition heating system for the drivers from 2008 onwards. The engine has to be at normal operating temperature for the MOT!

I can't mess about looking around for cheaper options on this occasion. The Peugeot dealer will run the cycle when they have put the additive in. When they have sorted the obvious sensor problem I can make other arrangements in future, with due warning, hopefully not so close to the MOT expiry date.

Harold

Harold Gough
2nd February 2017, 02:35 PM
I had a diesel for two years, covered about 17000 miles, and never had a DPF warning. I live in a rural area so most journeys are plenty long enough to warm the car up properly. However, a year ago I changed to a petrol version of the same model because I thought it likely that time would be called on diesel cars and I wanted shot of it while it was still worth something! The petrol costs a bit more on fuel but is a much more refined vehicle and I don't regret the change. Sorry to hear of your woes Harold, I hope it's sorted quickly and without too much expense.

Thanks, Otto.

I suppose it makes life interesting.

If I had no idea about how cars work it might be a different story.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
2nd February 2017, 02:54 PM
It's not just the particulates that are the problem. NOx emissions are as big a problem, if not bigger. NOx is a by-product of the high temperatures at which diesel engine combustion occurs due to N2 and O2 reacting together. It needs removing via a reduction process (converting the NOx back to N2). There are two types of cat to do this - one of which needs Adblu, the other doesn't. The Adblu approach is the more reliable, but at the cost of needing another reservoir to be filled. Unlike Eolys, Adblu is (should be!) fairly cheap.

The catalytic converters fitted to petrol engines do remove NOX, but at the cost of increased fuel consumption and significantly increased CO2 emissions.

I don't see electric propulsion as a realistic alternative as the entire electrical generation, distribution and storage system is grossly inefficient, and simply creates even more pollution 'somewhere else'. We are also told that we don't have sufficient generating capacity for our present needs, so how will the grid cope with charging millions of electric cars? How long before drivers of electric cars can't get to work because they couldn't charge their batteries overnight?

We really need to address this problem by finding ways to avoid travelling unnecessarily rather than simply moving the pollution footprint somewhere else.

The main polluters in towns and cities are commercial vehicles and buses. It might be a good idea to bring back trolley buses, but there is little practical alternative but to transport freight by diesel power.

I don't think that's right Nigel. Adblu is urea and it's used as part of selective catalytic reduction process in the exhaust system:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction

Yes, you are right. I was thinking of something else. :o

I gather Adblue is little more than refined urine! :D

Olybirder
2nd February 2017, 02:56 PM
I gather Adblue is little more than refined urine! :DOtherwise known as 'The Royal Wee'?

Ron

Naughty Nigel
2nd February 2017, 02:58 PM
This BBC Documentary The Engine that Powers the-World (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06csy8c/timeshift-series-15-3-the-engine-that-powers-the-world) may be of interest.

Naughty Nigel
2nd February 2017, 03:31 PM
I have just had a look at my current Owners' Manual, which provides the following advice.

Please note this is for a very low revving 3.0 litre diesel engine. Smaller engines may require a shorter regeneration time. The advice is also slightly different to my previous model.

DIESEL PARTICULATE FILTER (DPF)
Diesel vehicles equipped with a particle filter have more efficient emission control. The particles in the exhaust gases are collected in the filter during normal driving.

When a DPF message is displayed, accompanied by an amber warning lamp, the filter requires a regeneration cycle to clean itself. This requires the engine to have reached normal operating temperature. Regeneration takes place automatically at an interval of approximately 300-900 km (190-560 miles), depending on driving conditions. Regeneration normally takes 10-20 minutes and is automatically requested by the engine control module if the vehicle is driven steadily at vehicle speeds between 60 km/h to 112 km/h (40 mph to 70 mph). It is possible that the regeneration process will occur at lower vehicle speeds, but the events may take a little longer at a 50 km/h (30 mph) average speed.

Note: If regeneration is not successfully carried out, the amber warning lamp will eventually be replaced by a red warning lamp.

If a DPF message is displayed, accompanied by a red warning lamp, contact a Dealer/Authorised Repairer as soon as possible.

DRIVING SHORT DISTANCES OR IN COLD WEATHER
If the vehicle is frequently driven short distances or in cold weather conditions, then the engine may not reach normal operating temperature .This means that regeneration of the DPF does not take place and the filter is not efficiently cleaned. When the filter reaches a condition when a filter regeneration is appropriate and the current drive style is not appropriate, a warning triangle on the Instrument panel illuminates and the message DPF Full. See manual is displayed in the Message centre. This is not indicating a fault condition with the vehicle and no dealership support should be required. Start regeneration of the filter by driving the vehicle, preferably on a main road or motorway. The vehicle should then be driven for approximately 20 minutes or more.

OM USer
2nd February 2017, 04:42 PM
I too have a JLR vehicle which has the ford derived Euro IV diesel.

At cold engine temperatures the DPF will clog up more quickly and this gives rise to the maxim that a diesel engine is not for motorists who do a small annual milage. In fact if you just did 1000 miles per annum but did them all on a motorway on one day then there would be no issue. The "small annual milage" is shorhand for daily short journeys where the car does not reach normal operating temperature or at least does not reach normal operating temperature for a significant part of the journey. When the vehicle is at normal operating temperature the DPF wil still clog up but nowhere near as much (possibly to an insignificant amount but of course more miles will eventually lead to more clogging up), hence the need to have a high ratio of normal temperature driving to low temperature driving.

Once the DPF reaches a certain "clog" factor (based on back pressure I believe) it will go through a regeneration cycle where (as mentioned in a previous post) diesel fuel is injected into the cylinders to be passed through to the DPF where it will ignite. In so doing it will raise the temperature inside the DPF to such an extent that it wil burn off the sooty particulates clogging the DPF allowing it to breath freely again. This only happens when the engine is at normal temperature. During DPF regeneration the engine idle speed will rise, the underside of the car will get very hot, and you will smell the burning diesel. The DPF regeneration will run until the DPF is cleared or until a set time has passed without it being cleared (to prevent continuous regeneration). If you stop the vehicle before the DPF is cleared (or it stops itself) then another regeneration will be initiated once favourable conditions in the engine are reached again. Some diesel fuel will always seep past the piston rings and contaminate the oil, causing the oil level to rise (why some people never top up to the max mark). After a certain number of regenerations the oild will become seriously contaminated and must be changed. My vehicle counts the time under regeneration and then informs me that a service is due (in fact only an oil change is due). With a service interval of about 6000 miles it is a good idea to change the oil at half time and reset the service marker. If the vehicle is requiring frequent regenerations then the oil will need to be drained and changed more often; check the oil dip stick.

If the DPF becomes seriously blocked and the regular attempts at DPF regeneration can not clear it (maybe the engine isn't reaching temperature for long enough) then a warning light should come up. The handbook states that the vehicle should then be driven for at least 20 minutes above 40mph for another regeneration to kick in. If the DPF still isn't clearing then you will get a DPF blocked (or DPF Full) message and you need to take the vehicle in for specialised servicing or DPF replacement. The stipulation of 40mph is a bit disingenuous as its not speed per se but rpm and engine load. At 70mph in sixth gear my car is barely breaking sweat at 1800rpm. If the garage is trying to clear a DPF they will inject some cleaning additive directly into the DPF and run the engine at 3500 rpm - I had this done once. Long frequent sustained motorway driving is not a panacea to regeneration issues as my daily commute used to involve 40 miles of motorway each way (at 50 to 70 mph)!

It might be advisable when you take your car in to have them check the operation of the EGR valve. This allows the re-circulation of exhaust gases back into the inlet manifold so that they can be burnt for a second time and so reduce overall emmissions. This should close during regeneration (and when the engine is cold) as the re-circulated gases keep down engine temperature as they don't actually burn very well.

Naughty Nigel
2nd February 2017, 05:14 PM
Once the DPF reaches a certain "clog" factor (based on back pressure I believe) it will go through a regeneration cycle ....

This is correct. Main dealers can initiate a regeneration cycle via the computer system, but the driver has no control over it, which is a pity.

There are many occasions that I have returned home, usually late at night after a long journey, to be greeted by that distinctive rubbery smell and heat when I open the car door. Why didn't it regenerate a few miles earlier on the A1M? :confused:

Maybe it is that extra bit of welly over the final few miles? ;)

It would actually make sense if regeneration was linked to the SatNav, as that knows where the car is, its destination, and how it is likely to be driven over the next few miles.

Harold Gough
2nd February 2017, 05:18 PM
I too have a JLR vehicle which has the ford derived Euro IV diesel.

At cold engine temperatures the DPF will clog up more quickly and this gives rise to the maxim that a diesel engine is not for motorists who do a small annual milage. In fact if you just did 1000 miles per annum but did them all on a motorway on one day then there would be no issue. The "small annual milage" is shorhand for daily short journeys where the car does not reach normal operating temperature or at least does not reach normal operating temperature for a significant part of the journey. When the vehicle is at normal operating temperature the DPF wil still clog up but nowhere near as much (possibly to an insignificant amount but of course more miles will eventually lead to more clogging up), hence the need to have a high ratio of normal temperature driving to low temperature driving.

Once the DPF reaches a certain "clog" factor (based on back pressure I believe) it will go through a regeneration cycle where (as mentioned in a previous post) diesel fuel is injected into the cylinders to be passed through to the DPF where it will ignite. In so doing it will raise the temperature inside the DPF to such an extent that it wil burn off the sooty particulates clogging the DPF allowing it to breath freely again. This only happens when the engine is at normal temperature. During DPF regeneration the engine idle speed will rise, the underside of the car will get very hot, and you will smell the burning diesel. The DPF regeneration will run until the DPF is cleared or until a set time has passed without it being cleared (to prevent continuous regeneration). If you stop the vehicle before the DPF is cleared (or it stops itself) then another regeneration will be initiated once favourable conditions in the engine are reached again. Some diesel fuel will always seep past the piston rings and contaminate the oil, causing the oil level to rise (why some people never top up to the max mark). After a certain number of regenerations the oild will become seriously contaminated and must be changed. My vehicle counts the time under regeneration and then informs me that a service is due (in fact only an oil change is due). With a service interval of about 6000 miles it is a good idea to change the oil at half time and reset the service marker. If the vehicle is requiring frequent regenerations then the oil will need to be drained and changed more often; check the oil dip stick.

If the DPF becomes seriously blocked and the regular attempts at DPF regeneration can not clear it (maybe the engine isn't reaching temperature for long enough) then a warning light should come up. The handbook states that the vehicle should then be driven for at least 20 minutes above 40mph for another regeneration to kick in. If the DPF still isn't clearing then you will get a DPF blocked (or DPF Full) message and you need to take the vehicle in for specialised servicing or DPF replacement. The stipulation of 40mph is a bit disingenuous as its not speed per se but rpm and engine load. At 70mph in sixth gear my car is barely breaking sweat at 1800rpm. If the garage is trying to clear a DPF they will inject some cleaning additive directly into the DPF and run the engine at 3500 rpm - I had this done once. Long frequent sustained motorway driving is not a panacea to regeneration issues as my daily commute used to involve 40 miles of motorway each way (at 50 to 70 mph)!

It might be advisable when you take your car in to have them check the operation of the EGR valve. This allows the re-circulation of exhaust gases back into the inlet manifold so that they can be burnt for a second time and so reduce overall emmissions. This should close during regeneration (and when the engine is cold) as the re-circulated gases keep down engine temperature as they don't actually burn very well.


Thanks. Warning lights? If those are anything to do with the apparent sensor problem, that would explain why I have seen none. I will mention the valve, although I like to think I wouldn't have to. I suspect that such a suggestion would get some response about them doing what is necessary. We will see.

Harold

Harold Gough
3rd February 2017, 10:03 AM
T will mention the valve, although I like to think I wouldn't have to. I suspect that such a suggestion would get some response about them doing what is necessary. We will see.

It in now in the evil clutches... And that was the response I got.

I have a theory of what they could find: Dodgy additive tank sensor interpreted by diagnostic as empty tank. Tank found to be full from when the car was originally sold.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
3rd February 2017, 10:24 AM
It in now in the evil clutches... And that was the response I got.

I have a theory of what they could find: Dodgy additive tank sensor interpreted by diagnostic as empty tank. Tank found to be full from when the car was originally sold.

Harold

It still seems odd that you have not seen any warning messages at all.

Is it possible that your relative had the EGR valve and DPF 'deleted'? Some people do have this done.

Harold Gough
3rd February 2017, 10:43 AM
It still seems odd that you have not seen any warning messages at all.

It may be from a different source but I get the Diesel Fuel Filter Blocked (or whatever) message come on at random, every few trips. It came on at the end of a motorway drive of about 50 miles at a steady 60ish.

Harold

Harold Gough
3rd February 2017, 12:28 PM
Do you hate happy endings? So boring!

We are not there yet, but it is in sight.

I had a phone call a few minutes ago.

The diagnosis had been done, and the filter is not causing problems. I will be provided with a printout which shows emissions to be within MOT limits.

Nobody knows how much additive is in the tank but it seems to be far from empty. The cleaning cycle is doing its job in the right conditions.

The bad news is that the starter motor is excessively noisy and there is a squeak from the flywheel.

I now have to collect the vehicle and speak to our local garage. I suspect that the diesel is in the oil and will ask for a total change of oil.

Harold

benvendetta
3rd February 2017, 12:55 PM
After a succession of diesels from 2001, we bought a petrol Seat Leon FR (wife's car actually :o) new in 2014. A bit apprehensive about going back to petrol but after the stories here I am glad we did. MPG is not as good as the diesel version probably is but it cost a lot less to buy and we don't do more than about 5000 miles a year in it anyway. I make do with my push bikes and a Seat Mii three cylinder jobbie (65MPG)!

Harold Gough
3rd February 2017, 02:55 PM
I now have to collect the vehicle and speak to our local garage. I suspect that the diesel is in the oil and will ask for a total change of oil.

The car in now booked in for free re-test on Monday, followed by a service.

I was given an omissions printout by the Peugeot dealer, which did not greatly impress our local MOT tester.

Harold

OM USer
3rd February 2017, 04:18 PM
...There are many occasions that I have returned home, usually late at night after a long journey, to be greeted by that distinctive rubbery smell and heat when I open the car door. Why didn't it regenerate a few miles earlier on the A1M?...

I often got a regeneration coming up the slip road off a motorway. That extra bit of grunt needed always seemed to trigger it. It would be nice to have some sort of advance warning that a regeneration is needed and initiate it when convenient.

Naughty Nigel
3rd February 2017, 05:05 PM
I often got a regeneration coming up the slip road off a motorway. That extra bit of grunt needed always seemed to trigger it. It would be nice to have some sort of advance warning that a regeneration is needed and initiate it when convenient.

It would indeed. As I said yesterday, it would actually make sense if regeneration was linked to the SatNav, as that knows where the car is, its destination, and how it is likely to be driven over the next few miles.

Failing that, it would be handy to have the opportunity to initiate a regeneration when the car will be driven optimally for the next few miles, rather than being greeted by the smell and heat when you open the car door at journeys end.

Likewise, it would be handy for the auto stop-start system to be suspended when the indicators are switched on. I really don't want a half second delay when pulling out of a junction. However, I guess that could pose a problem on Audi and BMW cars where the indicators are never used. :rolleyes:

shenstone
3rd February 2017, 09:40 PM
I have 2 diesels

The 1994 engine in the 1988 LR ambulance (not JLR back then) and the 2013 engine in the 2013 Suzuki

The old one doesn't have a DPF and doesn't need an emissions test (vehicles that old just have to not be putting out smoke)

Having said that it actually puts out very little and the only time I got it smoking to any great extent was driving at over 10,000ft when I got white smoke caused by oxygen starvation

TNB it was the pleasure of driving a low revving diesel that made me get my 1st diesel engine car and I echo the comments above about just loving the torque

I've not had any problems so far, but then I do 20 minutes of motorway each way every day to work and back

Hope al goes well with your Harold

Regards
Andy

Harold Gough
5th February 2017, 02:27 PM
Latest update:

I have just driven down the A4 to Maidenhead, onto the M4 and back to Reading. Where was I going? Nowhere. I was burning fuel at uneconomic rate and polluting the air to get nowhere.

I went for a drive to give the system every chance of a filter burn-off, should it still need one. This required driving at no less than 3,000rpm for up to 20 minutes.

Once on the (crowded) motorway, I found that 3,000 rpm required 75mph in fourth or about 60mph in third. Having joined the motorway at Maidenhead I was going to exit at Theale (ca 20miles). However there was a 50mph limit after the 329M turnoff so cut it short by about 4 miles and took the exit. So not only could I not do the run sensibly and lawfully, neither could I cover an adequate (?) distance.

It seems to me that this mechanism is grossly over-engineered. OK, so we don’t want particles coming out of the tail of the exhaust pipe. So why not make a disposable/washable one to clamp inside the tail pipe? That would be a five minute job for an untrained person to deal with. (They could have one on the car and one in the “wash”).There would be no additional fuel consumed and, this, no additional nitrous oxides.

So, was my drive necessary? I have no idea. If so, was it successful? I have no idea. Did I have a choice? Only at a removable risk of a second MOT failure.

By the way, a quick perusal of the local free paper showed at least two main dealers offering brand new diesels.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
5th February 2017, 03:44 PM
Hi Harold,
Every car is different, but it shouldn't be necessary to drive at 3,000 RPM to regenerate the DPF.

My car is only doing about 1,350 RPM at a true 70 MPH in 8th gear, (its an automatic). By extrapolation (is must stress this point), 3,000 RPM would be on the speed limiter at 155 MPH! :eek:

Despite this I have never seen a DPF warning yet, and I promise that I rarely stray much over the 70 MPH speed limit. O:)

You could stay in 3rd gear to maintain 3,000 RPM, but that shouldn't be necessary either. (This is sometimes known as an 'Italian tune up'.)

No; effective regeneration only requires sufficient exhaust gas temperature and gas flow. Those factors are almost independent of engine speed in a modern turbocharged diesel engine. However, it is necessary for the engine to be at normal running temperature for regeneration to take place.

If regeneration is needed, brisk acceleration should trigger it, as the process is triggered by excessive back pressure. A steady 60 MPH + on the motorway or a main road for ten miles or so should then complete the process. Climbing long, steady hills, like those on the M40 would be better still. :)

However, the DPF will not regenerate if it doesn't need to, (regeneration life cycles are limited), or if the engine isn't hot enough.

I do wonder whether the DPF warnings you have seen coming off of the motorway are flashing up because regeneration has failed? That would be consistent with the excessive oil level in the sump. Burnt lubrication oil finding its way into the DPF could also cause problems.

In answer to your question, I believe the DPF contains a ceramic filter, and is designed to work at high temperatures. I don't think a disposable paper filter in the tailpipe would work as well, plus there is always the chance that owners will take them out!

Finally, you will find that an indicated 75 MPH is probably only about 68 MPH true speed as measured by GPS.

DerekW
5th February 2017, 06:54 PM
GPS speed versus indicated speed, I have found that the 70 mph on the Satnav is equivalent to 72 mph on the speedo.

Experienced this on several different makes of cars.

However YMMV

Naughty Nigel
5th February 2017, 07:51 PM
GPS speed versus indicated speed, I have found that the 70 mph on the Satnav is equivalent to 72 mph on the speedo.

Experienced this on several different makes of cars.

However YMMV

Seemingly, an indicated 70 MPH in a Toyota is only 56 MPH true speed. And the law says they must enforce this by only driving in the overtaking lane. :mad:



;)

Harold Gough
5th February 2017, 09:38 PM
Hi Harold,
Every car is different, but it shouldn't be necessary to drive at 3,000 RPM to regenerate the DPF.

Nigel,

I don't think it is essential, as my car has probably never met those conditions on other occasions and the filter and performance have survived. I took the precise advice of my MOT examiner to be certain that any need for regeneration conditions was met.

I have never knowingly experienced any symptoms of a regeneration in progress or having taken place, no smells, etc. That said, I have vague memories of a hot smell, on one occasion, when I parked at home but can't remember the preceding circumstances.

I have, at last, established that the previous owner (from new), who averaged under 500mpa, mostly, if not entirely, used it in town for supermarket trips and suchlike up to the 4,700 miles before it was sold to me.

As for running temperature, in half an hour my car reached about 77C and I don't think it exceeded it. On the motorway I was to preoccupied with maintaining revs and being safe in the heavy traffic to check the temperature but it was 77C soon after I had I left the motorway.

All I can say for sure is that the annoying Filter Blocked message has not appeared since the day before the original MOT and that is unusual.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
6th February 2017, 08:41 AM
I have never knowingly experienced any symptoms of a regeneration in progress or having taken place, no smells, etc. That said, I have vague memories of a hot smell, on one occasion, when I parked at home but can't remember the preceding circumstances.

If regeneration takes place whilst you are driving (which it should do) then you probably won't notice anything happening.

If you are driving slowly in traffic you may notice that the engine is not running as smoothly as usual. You may also notice some smoke at the start of the process.

I once pulled in to a filling station in my last car not knowing that a regeneration had just started. There was quite a lot of smoke and heat in the enclosed and sheltered space, to the point that I wondered if something was on fire; but I was relieved to see that the smoke was only coming from the exhaust pipes! That only happened to me once in about 90,000 miles.

The smell is quite distinctive, and is rather like hot rubber, or hot soot (which it is). It doesn't really smell like diesel fuel or fumes as such. I have often noticed it from other cars whilst driving; especially in slow traffic.

Given the problems you have had I would keep a close eye on the dipstick to check for rising oil level, as fuel oil in the sump will cause rapid engine wear. There is also a small risk that the engine could run away on its own lube oil, which can be disastrous.

I don't know about other makes but the DPF problems in JLR vehicles were resolved by updating the software in the engines ECU. This was done free of charge at the time. It may be worth asking your Peugeot dealer if a similar update is available.

Harold Gough
6th February 2017, 10:25 AM
Thanks, Nigel.

You brought out the nostalgia for the sunny afternoons, with a petrol-engined car having a Redex burn-off on the drive and smoking out the neighbours.

Harold

MJ224
6th February 2017, 10:36 AM
I do just over 1,000 mpa.

I was planning to drive it one holidays to mainland Europe but my wife was nervous about travel when she was put under treatment for heart problems but this year could be the year.

Harold

With such a small mileage, why not consider an electric car?

Having retired recently, my daily mileage averages 40 miles maybe. Picking up grandkids from school is most of that.

The electric car is cheap and clean to run. Limitations are range of course, and "cold" as you don't like putting the heater on!!

I also keep my RX8 for longer journeys.............

MJ*chr

Naughty Nigel
6th February 2017, 10:46 AM
Thanks, Nigel.

You brought out the nostalgia for the sunny afternoons, with a petrol-engined car having a Redex burn-off on the drive and smoking out the neighbours.

Harold

.... And then there was the smell of two stroke smoke when we went out for a ride on our motorbikes. You don't smell that much nowadays.

Better still a whiff of 'Castrol R' if you added a spoonful to the tank. :D

Harold Gough
6th February 2017, 11:22 AM
With such a small mileage, why not consider an electric car?

Having retired recently, my daily mileage averages 40 miles maybe. Picking up grandkids from school is most of that.

The electric car is cheap and clean to run. Limitations are range of course, and "cold" as you don't like putting the heater on!!

I also keep my RX8 for longer journeys.............

Why not?:

1) An unwelcome expense. My current diesel has had the equivalent of about 6 months of typical (not my) mileage since new.

2) Parking one our drive is already a problem with two cars. I have to back in off a busy to very busy road. A third one would be a nightmare.

3) It's bad enough having to occasionally trickle charge a normal battery. Regular charging of an electric car is my idea of self-imposed, unacceptable inconvenience.

4) Running costs are not my prime concern

I could go on, but you get the flavour.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
6th February 2017, 11:44 AM
But electric cars are not pollution free are they?

Electric cars simply create even more pollution somewhere else.

The electricity generation and distribution system is far from efficient, whilst storage batteries need to be charged with about 1.6 times what you take out. Would you be happy putting 80 litres of fuel into a 50 litre tank?

The materials involved in manufacturing the batteries, and their weight, are hardly eco friendly.

We are told that our electricity network is near capacity already. Adding millions of electric cars will do nothing to help.

Whilst the technology is attractive (if you ignore the environmental impact), electric cars will only be viable when we have adequate supplies of nuclear or renewable electricity.

In the short term it would be better to convert diesels used extensively in urban areas to run on LPG, but that is a very dangerous material to drive around with.

Otto
6th February 2017, 12:47 PM
Car buyers moving away from diesels

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38880019

Electric cars charged from windmills are probably fairly pollution free in use but I'm not sure about the manufacture and disposal of millions of Li-ion batteries!

Harold Gough
6th February 2017, 01:00 PM
Two minutes ago: The phone call to say the car passed the MOT (delayed from its scheduled 10 am start). No details until the service has been done, sometime this afternoon.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
6th February 2017, 01:32 PM
Car buyers moving away from diesels

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38880019


I bought my present car, a diesel, 'on government advice' because it has lower CO2 emissions, and hence much lower road tax. (Currently £160 PA I think).

I would have liked the petrol variant, which has a gorgeous soundtrack, but the road tax was prohibitive at around £540 PA.

That was in December 2015.

Rail travel is more environmentally friendly, but the government ripped up half of the tracks in 1963 to make way for roads. This was despite much public protest, and made vast numbers of smaller communities inaccessible except by car.

Sir Ernest Marples was the Transport Minister at the time. Now, I wonder how he made his fortune? :rolleyes:

Otto
6th February 2017, 02:25 PM
The trouble with trains is that very often you still need a car to get to/from the station, especially in smaller more rural communities. My local station is six miles away; though there is a bus service it doesn't connect with all the (infrequent) trains! At least trains can be more photogenic :)

There are rumours of higher road tax for new diesel cars in future though this may not apply to those already registered. Such rumours plus an offer I couldn't sensibly refuse led me to swap my diesel for the same model with a petrol engine last year - and save myself £80 road tax into the bargain.

MJ224
6th February 2017, 02:39 PM
Electric car sounds SO much more simple to use. Not trying to convince or sell the idea, just raising a point. You keep on plugging away with you diesel...........

As for pollution, I agree that there is no or little pollution free transport easily available. Some say you might be able to use solar panels to charge up the beast, but not always available. But electric is certainly no more polluting that either petrol of diesel. But it is really inconvenient to have to plug it in three of four times a week. They ought to have the contactless charging system:):). Yes not sure how the disposal of Lithium batteries is carried out.

What does amaze me is that there are so few on the road, I rarely see them here in South Wales. But I am a on the edge of a village, maybe more can be seen in towns;)

Glad that Harold has sorted his problem..........

Electric car--no road tax, 2.5p per mile, no congestion charge if you are unlucky enough to live in London *chr*chr

Naughty Nigel
6th February 2017, 03:36 PM
Electric car sounds SO much more simple to use. Not trying to convince or sell the idea, just raising a point. You keep on plugging away with you diesel...........

As for pollution, I agree that there is no or little pollution free transport easily available. Some say you might be able to use solar panels to charge up the beast, but not always available. But electric is certainly no more polluting that either petrol of diesel. But it is really inconvenient to have to plug it in three of four times a week. They ought to have the contactless charging system:):). Yes not sure how the disposal of Lithium batteries is carried out.

What does amaze me is that there are so few on the road, I rarely see them here in South Wales. But I am a on the edge of a village, maybe more can be seen in towns;)

Glad that Harold has sorted his problem..........

Electric car--no road tax, 2.5p per mile, no congestion charge if you are unlucky enough to live in London *chr*chr

I don't see petrol or diesel cars as a solution; simply the least worst means of getting from A to B by road!

I'm afraid that electric cars are significantly MORE polluting than either, unless they can be charged with electricity generated in nuclear power stations or from renewable sources.

The only reason that electric cars are so cheap to run is that nobody has yet found a way to die the electrons so HMRC and VOSA Inspectors can see whether Fuel Excise Duty has been paid on it! Likewise LPG and LNG.

If drivers of electric vehicles were taxed according to their true CO2 emissions, and in line with petrol/diesel it would cost more like 50 pence per mile, which would be rather less attractive.

The true cost of petrol and diesel is only about 45 pence per litre, so at 50 MPG that would cost about 4.4 pence per mile!

We are told that diesel cars are now public enemy No 1 when it comes to air pollution, but the reality is that diesel cars only contribute a small fraction of the pollution in our towns and cities.

Thankfully I don't need to visit London very often, but I have been told that air quality is significantly improved when the bus drivers are on strike!

There are also huge numbers of diesel delivery vans and heavy commercial vehicles travelling around the city, plus thousands of long distance coaches.

Some with longer memories may remember when London had electric trams and trolley buses. These were a much more elegant solution than carrying heavy, toxic, expensive, highly reactive storage batteries around in road vehicles. Whatever happened to them? Cleared out to make way for cars no doubt, just like the Beeching cuts to the railways.

For me there is precious little pleasure in driving anywhere by road nowadays. There is simply too much traffic about. I would far rather be on a train if it gets me to where I want to be. And yes, most trains are much nicer to look at. :)

MJ224
6th February 2017, 04:02 PM
:)Yes what ever facts and figures suit..............

My motoring cost is about 2.5p per mile when using the electric noddy car. (fuel and car tax)
When I want a nice drive I drive the RX8, now that is a gas guzzler. But still cheaper to run it as opposed to buying another car *chr*chr

But driving these days is much less pleasure than it used to be, all those bloody cars blocking my way, and those jam sandwiches trying to stop me doing 71mphhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

On yer bike :D:D:D

Harold Gough
6th February 2017, 04:19 PM
:)
When I want a nice drive I drive the RX8, now that is a gas guzzler. But still cheaper to run it as opposed to buying another car *chr*chr

"The RX-8 was removed from the European market in 2010 after the car failed to meet emissions standards."

Tut, Tut, Tut!

Harold

MJ224
6th February 2017, 05:33 PM
Along with all those classic cars...........

Lovely car to drive, but I barely do 250 miles a month in it.

Electric is the most polluting cars around closely followed by my RX8:)

I suppose you will saying may sailing boat is also a major polluter *chr*chr

Only in jest, as long as you are 2:)

Now let me go and get my camera................


https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/557/32369690020_f63934eb55_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Rjp86N)Sail in the Bay (https://flic.kr/p/Rjp86N) by Mark Johnson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/133688957@N08/), on Flickr

Naughty Nigel
6th February 2017, 06:20 PM
Sailing must be by far the most eco friendly way of traveling long distances.

All of the energy is free, there are no transmission losses, no nasty chemicals, no CO2 emissions, no methane etc. And it is so, so silent, with only the sound of the wind and the water.

What is it that you have BTW?

I used to have a Flying Fifteen many years ago. Great fun without the cost of a bigger boat. :)

MJ224
6th February 2017, 06:43 PM
Aah, fellow sailor.

I have a Sadler 32 now. 37 years old...

But used to do a lot of dinghy sailing/racing in my youth. Very youth raced the merlin Roacket in the midlands. Only crewed tho'. But sailed Enterprises, GP14, Heron, (Rudyard Lake near Leeke), and Seafly off Portsmouth. Taught sailing for a while using Wayfarers at Llangorse lake near Brecon

Sailed to France and Ireland in the Sadler..........

Harold Gough
6th February 2017, 07:49 PM
My motoring cost is about 2.5p per mile when using the electric noddy car. (fuel and car tax)

Many years ago, with petrol cars, I used to fill up the tank to the top every time and note the mileage. From that, I could work out the mpg.

I stopped that years ago and, now that to do mostly local runs, I am maximising the mpg but I don't give a toss. It costs what it costs and so be it. Convenience rules OK!

Harold

Harold Gough
6th February 2017, 07:58 PM
Regrettably, in terms of a story, it has come to an end. Happily, in terms of cost and inconvenience, it has come to an end without great expense and with the car back on the road.

My conclusion:

As the dirty filter message showed the day before the original MOT, I conclude that just before, or during, a regeneration the exhaust puts out unlawful emissions. Hardly a triumph of engineering!

Thanks for all the comments.

Harold

Otto
7th February 2017, 09:32 AM
Glad it's sorted Harold. Hopefully if the light comes on again it will be just after an MOT and not just before. Which reminds me of the day I took my old Spitfire for an MOT and as I drove onto the forecourt the horn button popped out and landed in my lap!

Harold Gough
7th February 2017, 10:19 AM
Glad it's sorted Harold. Hopefully if the light comes on again it will be just after an MOT and not just before. Which reminds me of the day I took my old Spitfire for an MOT and as I drove onto the forecourt the horn button popped out and landed in my lap!

Thanks, Otto.

Apparently, the engine should have had a new timing belt when it was 10 years old (with low mileage). I checked with my ex-local back street mechanic, who moved out of town last year. He confirmed that he had not fitted one and put me in touch with his former partner in crime, who collects cars from customers, works on them and returns them. That includes MOTs. He works out of a bona fide garage but I will not be paying for any overheads, etc. He mentioned, which the local garage did not, the advisability of fitting a new water pump at the same time. I want to check that requirement against the mileage.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
7th February 2017, 10:34 AM
Thanks, Otto.

Apparently, the engine should have had a new timing belt when it was 10 years old (with low mileage). I checked with my ex-local back street mechanic, who moved out of town last year. He confirmed that he had not fitted one and put me in touch with his former partner in crime, who collects cars from customers, works on them and returns them. That includes MOTs. He works out of a bona fide garage but I will not be paying for any overheads, etc. He mentioned, which the local garage did not, the advisability of fitting a new water pump at the same time. I want to check that requirement against the mileage.

Harold

A broken timing belt typically results in catastrophic engine failure owing to pistons and valves colliding with each other at high speed! Oddly enough, this seems to be worse if the belt breaks at low engine speed.

The water pump usually shares the same belt, so failure of the water pump bearings can have the same result. Hence it is usually recommended that a new water pump is fitted together with he timing belt and idler wheels.

Otto
7th February 2017, 10:41 AM
Yes, it's vital to change the timing belt at the recommended intervals. For my Alfa I think it's 5 years or 30k miles, whichever occures first. A change of water pump is recommended because they can seize - in which case you need another new timing belt and risk serious engine damage! A friend of mine had a Peugeot that suffered such a failure which resulted in the car being written off, such was the cost of repairs.

Harold Gough
7th February 2017, 10:55 AM
A broken timing belt typically results in catastrophic engine failure owing to pistons and valves colliding with each other at high speed! Oddly enough, this seems to be worse if the belt breaks at low engine speed.

Yes, I thought that had happened in the 1970s with my Audi. I was driving across town, having just picked up a work colleague from home, and was heading for the motorway. We were doing no more than 30mph. The engine just stopped. A quick look at the uncapped distributor, with the starter motor turning, soon established the cause. Surprisingly, the belt was the only casualty.

I have that always in mind when belt issues arise.

Harold

Shaw
7th February 2017, 11:26 AM
Yes, I thought that had happened in the 1970s with my Audi. I was driving across town, having just picked up a work colleague from home, and was heading for the motorway. We were doing no more than 30mph. The engine just stopped. A quick look at the uncapped distributor, with the starter motor turning, soon established the cause. Surprisingly, the belt was the only casualty.

I have that always in mind when belt issues arise.

Harold

It looks like that Audi had a non-interference engine.

OM USer
7th February 2017, 03:25 PM
A broken timing belt typically results in catastrophic engine failure owing to pistons and valves colliding with each other at high speed!

I had this happen on an Vauxhall Omega. Due to the high mileage and age of the car (and the noise as I coasted into the kerb) it was not even worth having it stripped down to inspect the damage.

OM USer
7th February 2017, 03:29 PM
...sailed Enterprises, GP14, Heron, and Seafly.... Taught sailing for a while using Wayfarers at Llangorse lake near Brecon....

Small world. I had a week sailing Wayfarers at LLangorse Lake (about 40 years ago!). In my time I have also sailed GP14s (nice) and Mirrors (didn't like).

Are we off topic here?

Naughty Nigel
7th February 2017, 04:29 PM
Are we off topic here?

Yes! *yes

Our company sponsored one of the yachts in the Chay Blyth round the world challenge, and later the BT round the world challenge.

That meant we had use of these yachts for corporate hostility and that sort of thing.

One weekend we took the yacht from Lymington to circumnavigate the Isle of Wight for a bit of fun. The MD of our advertising agency, an odious man, invited himself along, probably assuming that we would spend the weekend in the marina drinking.

By the time we got to The Needles he had taken on a lime green complexion, and was begging to be put down on dry land.

But we enjoyed it! :D

MJ224
7th February 2017, 04:47 PM
Small world. I had a week sailing Wayfarers at LLangorse Lake (about 40 years ago!). In my time I have also sailed GP14s (nice) and Mirrors (didn't like).

Are we off topic here?

Yes but............

I taught sailing there in 1968-70. Only for a couple of weeks during the year during my leave from the army. Did you teach? PGL Camp...

Harold Gough
8th February 2017, 08:58 AM
Just to get it back on topic :rolleyes::

My trials and tribulations might have been a lot worse. Just after I got it sorted the last three digits of the mileage reached 666. :eek:

Harold

Otto
8th February 2017, 09:46 AM
That reminds me of the time many years ago when I set my VCR to record "The Omen" overnight. When I looked at the tape counter the following morning it showed "666". I never watched the film :eek:.

Harold Gough
8th February 2017, 11:13 AM
That reminds me of the time many years ago when I set my VCR to record "The Omen" overnight. When I looked at the tape counter the following morning it showed "666". I never watched the film :eek:.

You had to play it in reverse anyway!:D

Harold

Naughty Nigel
8th February 2017, 01:27 PM
Just to get it back on topic :rolleyes::

My trials and tribulations might have been a lot worse. Just after I got it sorted the last three digits of the mileage reached 666. :eek:

Harold

As stamped on Damien Trotter's forehead (according to Rodney)! :D

Harold Gough
14th February 2017, 09:28 AM
I bought my present car, a diesel, 'on government advice' because it has lower CO2 emissions, and hence much lower road tax. (Currently £160 PA I think).

Mine is due this month and I was relieved to see that it is "only" £145.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
15th February 2017, 09:47 PM
Mine is due this month and I was relieved to see that it is "only" £145.

Harold

"Only £145", plus Sadiq Khan’s “£10 toxicity charge" if you are mad enough to drive through London. :rolleyes:

Naughty Nigel
16th February 2017, 04:00 PM
With such a small mileage, why not consider an electric car?

Having retired recently, my daily mileage averages 40 miles maybe. Picking up grandkids from school is most of that.

The electric car is cheap and clean to run. Limitations are range of course, and "cold" as you don't like putting the heater on!!

I also keep my RX8 for longer journeys.............

MJ*chr

I don't buy the electric car concept, but I cannot argue with the economics for local travel.

How do you find it day to day?

If you charge it at (say) a motorway service station do they charge an arm and a leg as they do for petrol and diesel?

Can you charge it from a 16A socket or do you need a special charger in the garage?

Is there a problem with using a lot of heat in the winter, and does it have aircon for the summer.

I have seen a few low mileage Nissan Leaf cars for sale for about £3,000, plus £40 a month battery lease, which would be ideal for my wife, who only drives about eight miles each way to work.

The Technician
16th February 2017, 04:08 PM
WE use a Nissan Leaf for a work car and they are great so fast off the mark that I hurt my neck when I was pushed back in the seat :-), most of the charging points are free you need a card which I think is £10 or £20 per year? It is geared up to start charging at some point as there are a few allready charging, for a full charge from your home charge point is approx £5ish accourding to one of the guys who took it home and charged it up there, oh the only down side is the ranage 90miles at a push, if you look at a map of charge points we have loads up North but as soon as you get to North Yorkshire on the A1 nothing for miles going south then hundreds :-(

Ian
16th February 2017, 04:32 PM
My daughter is studying at Sheffield University and I was quite impressed that the modest public car park opposite her student house last year had a couple of spaces with charging points.

If I ever enjoy a windfall of some kind I will be getting a Tesla S :)

Ian

Naughty Nigel
16th February 2017, 04:56 PM
WE use a Nissan Leaf for a work car and they are great so fast off the mark that I hurt my neck when I was pushed back in the seat :-), most of the charging points are free you need a card which I think is £10 or £20 per year? It is geared up to start charging at some point as there are a few allready charging, for a full charge from your home charge point is approx £5ish accourding to one of the guys who took it home and charged it up there, oh the only down side is the ranage 90miles at a push, if you look at a map of charge points we have loads up North but as soon as you get to North Yorkshire on the A1 nothing for miles going south then hundreds :-(

Interesting. So a sixteen mile round trip each day would only need a charge towards the end of the week, and then again over the weekend?

I know what you are saying about charging points further south. The Toon seems to be awash with them, (and they are rarely used), but if you couldn't make it to Wetherby Services you would be stuffed! *yes

What actually happens when they run flat. Do you have a few miles where it is slow, and the lights are dim, or does it just die without warning; rather like a phone or laptop when the battery gets low?

Naughty Nigel
16th February 2017, 04:58 PM
If I ever enjoy a windfall of some kind I will be getting a Tesla S :)

Ian

They may have zero emission engines but from the videos I've seen the tyres can make a lot of smoke! :D

The Technician
16th February 2017, 05:19 PM
If it runs flat there is a break down service, we have never had to use it but come close it goes to 5miles left flashes then just dashes flashing but you still get well we guess about another 5miles :-)

Ian
16th February 2017, 05:37 PM
There are of course electric hybrids, I don't mean the original Toyota Prius-style petrol hybrid, but fundamentally electric cars that have a small emergency petrol engine that is purely for generating electricity. The Vauxhall Ampera was like that (now discontinued) and the higher-spec BMW i3, among others.

Ian

Naughty Nigel
16th February 2017, 05:57 PM
Oddly enough, I met a client a couple of weeks ago who drove a Mitsubishi plug-in hybrid, which is a big lump of car! He reckoned it had a battery range of up to 30 miles in good weather, but would then switch to the petrol engine which gave about 32 MPG at best.

Overall, for a year's driving, including mileage driven on battery power he reckoned he managed around 38 MPG.

He was planning to sell it in a few weeks, with the favourite option being a new Land Rover Discovery Sport as the fuel economy should be a lot better for his kind of driving.

Harold Gough
25th February 2017, 06:33 PM
Thanks, Otto.

Apparently, the engine should have had a new timing belt when it was 10 years old (with low mileage). I checked with my ex-local back street mechanic, who moved out of town last year. He confirmed that he had not fitted one and put me in touch with his former partner in crime, who collects cars from customers, works on them and returns them. That includes MOTs. He works out of a bona fide garage but I will not be paying for any overheads, etc. He mentioned, which the local garage did not, the advisability of fitting a new water pump at the same time. I want to check that requirement against the mileage.

Harold

I have just had the car delivered after the belt and pump were fitted. Apparently, the belt was not very worn but the pump was leaking water. Anyway, that the the car saga ended happily.

There is an epilogue.

The car repair was a cash in hand job. I went to the local ATM three days ago, and asked it for the £300 required. It said the maximum for that day was £250, presumably due to shortage of notes. I drew £200 and returned the next day for the other £100, which it paid out. I had drawn the cash ahead of the day, as I didn't want the over-sensitive Barclays security system to block the card before I could pay my car tax.

In due course, I paid for the tax online with no problem. I subsequently paid about £5 for a CD, via PayPal, with the card account, with no problem. Where I went wrong was to try to pay for a second CD, costing less than £3 with postage. The card was declined.

I am waiting for the automated phone call, the second in about 10 days, to verify my spending. Unlike Barclaycard, which would phone within seconds of the problem, I have to wait, perhaps until tomorrow.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
25th February 2017, 06:41 PM
I went to the local ATM three days ago, and asked it for the £300 required. It said the maximum for that day was £250, presumably due to shortage of notes. I drew £200 and returned the next day for the other £100, which it paid out. I had drawn the cash ahead of the day, as I didn't want the over-sensitive Barclays security system to block the card before I could pay my car tax.


I think you'll find that cards are limited to £200 or £250 a day maximum cash withdrawal from an ATM, but you can withdraw more from the counter.

I suspect this is to protect accounts from being emptied if a card is stolen, and to prevent ATM's from running out of cash too soon.

There are also legal restrictions on the use of large amounts of cash to prevent money laundering.

Harold Gough
25th February 2017, 07:15 PM
As I was lying in the bath, listening to the radio, I hear a news item about the card payment system being down today. I checked on Google and it was Barclays. I have just made an Ebay payment successfully with that account. *chr*

Harold

Harold Gough
9th May 2017, 02:37 PM
If you though it was all over:

About two months after a motorway run at 3,000 rpm cleared the filter for the MOT, the warning icon started appearing at intervals as I was driving the car.

A planned drive to clear it in mid April was cancelled due to an unexpected family commitment. Since then, there has been a loose plan to go on a motorway drive with a pub lunch to add to the justification.

I normally go to our local for lunch on a Tuesday but an email arrived this morning saying that, at short notice (no reason given), the pub would be closed today.

I offered my wife to do the drive today and find lunch at a new pub.

About a mile from the motorway junction, the clear diesel filter message and icon came up. I muttered some threat in its direction and we joined the motorway. I was in fourth gear at 75mph and 3,000rpm. All went well for a few minutes. Then there was a thump-like loss of power.

With nearly 20 miles to the next exit, I found the best speed I could get was 50mph in third at about 2,800 RPM. Thankfully, most of the distance had roadworks and a 50mph limit. My foot was on the floor but I could not get more revs. The icon was showing.

I feared the engine might stall at the traffic lights after the exit but it did not. Essentially, I could attain 2,800 RPM in any gear but no more.

The roads to the pub were motorway, then dual carriageway then significant B road. We never found the B road on the outward journey. I have never driven down so many single track roads with passing places on a single day before. Anyway, we reached the pub

Two scenarios went through my mind.

1) The crud (merde) might consolidate when the vehicle was parked and it would not start again.

2) The was the onboad computer limiting the revs.

3) When the icon appears in other circumstance, turning off the ignition and turning it on again get rid of it.

We had a lovely lunch with superb ale and then returned to the car, having decided to forego the embarrassment of doing 50mph on the motorway on the way home.

It turned out that a combination of 2) & 3) were the case. The problem had gone and I had all the revs I wanted in any gear. I did an unnecessary drive along a different stretch of motorway to confirm all was OK/celebrate.

So, two quite different experiences on the two filter-clearing drives. As the French would say "Vive la difference". I say "Merde!".

Harold

Naughty Nigel
9th May 2017, 02:56 PM
I had a similar problem with my S-Type Jaguar diesel, which would occasionally go into limp home mode for no obvious reason; usually when giving it some head!

(This usually had something to do with a circular, blue and white Germanic radiator badge in the rear view mirror.)

Turned out it was the battery, which otherwise gave no warning of anything being wrong. Look on any Jaguar forum and you will see that this is by no means unknown! It could just be that your Pug has a similar problem.

Unfortunately, unless you can get it to repeat the performance on the next drive cycle the cause will never be recorded in the computer.

Otto
9th May 2017, 02:57 PM
I am increasingly sure I made the right decision getting rid of my diesel last year. I hope you don't get any more trouble with it Harold!

Harold Gough
9th May 2017, 03:16 PM
Turned out it was the battery, which otherwise gave no warning of anything being wrong. Look on any Jaguar forum and you will see that this is by no means unknown! It could just be that your Pug has a similar problem.

It had a new one in February, fitted by Halfords.

I should make it clear that the lack of revs was only during this recycling.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
9th May 2017, 03:19 PM
It had a new one in February, fitted by Halfords.

I should make it clear that the lack of revs was only during this recycling.

Harold

It's not just a lack of revs, but a total loss of power at any engine speed.

Going into Restricted Performance when sprinting up a hill was like hitting a brick wall!

Harold Gough
9th May 2017, 04:05 PM
It's not just a lack of revs, but a total loss of power at any engine speed.

Going into Restricted Performance when sprinting up a hill was like hitting a brick wall!

Not my experience. I had what felt like normal performance up to 2,800 rpm. I was expecting a drop of speed on the (not very steep) hills but it never happened.

Harold

Zuiko
9th May 2017, 09:05 PM
I had a similar problem with my S-Type Jaguar diesel, which would occasionally go into limp home mode for no obvious reason; usually when giving it some head!

(This usually had something to do with a circular, blue and white Germanic radiator badge in the rear view mirror.)

Turned out it was the battery, which otherwise gave no warning of anything being wrong. Look on any Jaguar forum and you will see that this is by no means unknown! It could just be that your Pug has a similar problem.

Unfortunately, unless you can get it to repeat the performance on the next drive cycle the cause will never be recorded in the computer.

Sounds like a suspect alternator too.

Zuiko
9th May 2017, 09:09 PM
(This usually had something to do with a circular, blue and white Germanic radiator badge in the rear view mirror.)



Ah, a Mini Cooper 'S' :D:D:D

Otto
10th May 2017, 09:09 AM
A sudden loss of performance while overtaking might be seen as a serious safety issue! It happened to me once in a Saab Turbo - the wastegate seized shut allowing an overboost which cut the ignition to protect the engine. I'd floored it to pass someone and got the "brick wall" halfway past - fortunately it was a dual carriageway ..!

Naughty Nigel
10th May 2017, 11:40 AM
A sudden loss of performance while overtaking might be seen as a serious safety issue! It happened to me once in a Saab Turbo - the wastegate seized shut allowing an overboost which cut the ignition to protect the engine. I'd floored it to pass someone and got the "brick wall" halfway past - fortunately it was a dual carriageway ..!

Indeed. But the manufacturer's first instinct is to avoid warranty claims. :(

Harold Gough
11th May 2017, 03:34 PM
I have found the (partial) information in the car handbook. You can't find it directly in the index.

The message which the book says will be displayed is "risk of blocking particulate filter". I have never seen that message. What I get is "diesel fuel filter blocked".

The instructions are to drive at at least 35mph (no mention of rpm) for at least 5 minutes or until the light goes out. Having, on one occasion, driven at motorway speed for 50 miles, with no warning, to find I had one as I slowed for the exit road, I am far from impressed. On many other occasions I must have complied with the 35mph+ with no effect. Only the 3,000 rpm method seems to have worked.

I propose that petrol and diesel should be banned. We could then run our cars on the unlimited supply of bullshit from the manufacturers.

Harold

Harold Gough
4th September 2017, 10:44 AM
What again? I did say it was a saga.

I have some more data from the third recycling.

I had seen the warning a few times so a motorway drive to a mushroom foray looked a good opportunity. As I approached to turn-off onto the motorway, the warning came on again (yellow engine problem icon lit).

I drove at +/- 75mph in fourth gear, 3,000 RPM. At no time were the revs or speed governed by the computer and I seemed to have flexibility. Just as I approached the 1 mile warning sign for my exit, the icon went out. As I assumed at the time, the recycling was complete.

So, the symptoms seem inconsistent.

Anyway, enough of the diesel filter. Last week, I was driving cross country, down a single track lane I had never used before. Suddenly, I had lots of revs and no traction and the car was stuck in gear so I couldn't push it.

For the first time ever, my mobile phone battery was flat so I thumbed a lift for the couple of miles home. I phoned the RAC and then my friendly mechanic, who agreed for it to be dropped at his garage.

I soon got a phone call from the RAC man, who was at the car. I borrowed my wife's car to take the key to him. He towed it to the garage and dropped the key there while I drove home.

The next day I got a quote for the clutch replacent and agreed to pay cash. A couple of days later, I got an update. The good news was that the clutch was only about half worn. The bad news was that the flywheel, at about twice the cost of a clutch, was shattered. (There had been a warning whine for some months).

I looked this up and, for the 2L diesel, this is quite common, usually at 25,000m, twice what mine had done. Also, the 2003 ones were by far the worst. Mine? 2003, of course. I hope the replacent is not a 2003 original!

Being carless, I have been visiting the local ATM for cash. Of all times, it would not let me have the full£300 daily allowance, only £250. Two withdrawals gave me £500 and I still needed £360. I was getting very twitchy about a possible card blockage. This morning, needing the balance by midday, I was going to the bank but it seemed that I could get the same service at my local (walking distance) Post Office. No, I could have only £300. So I drew the remaining £60 from the joint account.

"Carefree motoring"? Where did I hear that?

Harold

pdk42
4th September 2017, 12:16 PM
Fascinating!

Jim Ford
4th September 2017, 04:52 PM
Hmm, Peugeot - say no more!

My experience of French cars is that they are very fragile. I was given a Renault Clio as a 'courtesy' car (more of a discourtesy!). I was frightened I'd break it with my bare hands. When I put the handbrake on it felt as if it would come off the floor like a ring-pull on a beer can. The bodywork felt as flimsy as the rest of the beer can.

ISTRC that on TG they said that French cars were a lot of fun, until they fell apart!

Jim

pdk42
4th September 2017, 06:03 PM
Hmm, Peugeot - say no more!

My experience of French cars is that they are very fragile. I was given a Renault Clio as a 'courtesy' car (more of a discourtesy!). I was frightened I'd break it with my bare hands. When I put the handbrake on it felt as if it would come off the floor like a ring-pull on a beer can. The bodywork felt as flimsy as the rest of the beer can.

ISTRC that on TG they said that French cars were a lot of fun, until they fell apart!

Jim

I've had two French cars in my life. After the first I vowed never to buy another. I still have no idea why I went back on that promise to myself since the second one was probably worse than the first! It was a Renault Scenic and I sold it at four years old and 57k miles. Its replacement - a VW Golf is now almost 7 years old and has done 68k. The Renault sounded like a bag of nails and I was seriously concerned about making it to the garage without the engine falling out (the engine mounts were shot). The VW on the other hand feels, sounds and performs exactly as it did when it was new!

Never again.

Otto
5th September 2017, 08:22 AM
A mate of mine had a Peugeot 205GTi for years and loved it. It had done around 200k miles when he finally got rid of it but it was always needing some major job or other doing. When my sister was looking around for new wheels a couple of years ago the sage she consulted warned her that "whatever you do, don't buy a Peugeot".

I had a string of Saabs and when the time came to replace the last one I wondered what I should choose. Eventually, despite the reputation, I bought an Alfa Romeo. I'm on my second Giulietta now and you know what, they've been the most reliable cars I've ever had.

Jim Ford
5th September 2017, 10:33 AM
Eventually, despite the reputation, I bought an Alfa Romeo. I'm on my second Giulietta now and you know what, they've been the most reliable cars I've ever had.

A car journalist once said that 'Alfas are great cars, but you'll always be carrying a bit of it in your pocket'!

Jim

MJ224
5th September 2017, 10:49 AM
A car journalist once said that 'Alfas are great cars, but you'll always be carrying a bit of it in your pocket'!

Jim

One of my two cars is the Mazda RX8. Goes like fury, but is certainly a hole in the pocket.....

2nd car is an All Electric Citroen Zero.........(cheap cheap).....*chr

OM USer
5th September 2017, 09:45 PM
I've had four french cars. The first was a brand new compamy owned Peugeot 405 (no problems), this was followed by a compan Citroen XM (no problems). I then had a company Citroen C5 (only problem was siezed brakes - twice!). I then got myself a second hand turbo diesel Citroen XM at 100K miles and proceeded to put another 100K on it. It eventually died when the hydraulic pump gave up (so no suspension and heavy stearing).

Otto
6th September 2017, 08:22 AM
A car journalist once said that 'Alfas are great cars, but you'll always be carrying a bit of it in your pocket'!

That may have been true once upon a time but it isn't any more. And with the new Giulia and Stelvio Alfa has reinvented itself. It's time to shake off that undeserved reputation.

Otto
6th September 2017, 05:21 PM
I knew it. I should have kept my mouth shut. Started the engine this morning. "Check transmission" light and warning beep, and car isn't going anywhere.

Fortunately at the third attempt it went into gear OK and has been fine the rest of the day. Flippin' computers ...

Harold Gough
6th September 2017, 05:42 PM
I knew it. I should have kept my mouth shut. Started the engine this morning. "Check transmission" light and warning beep, and car isn't going anywhere.

Fortunately at the third attempt it went into gear OK and has been fine the rest of the day. Flippin' computers ...

If you will live in the frozen north! :D

Harold

Naughty Nigel
6th September 2017, 09:06 PM
I knew it. I should have kept my mouth shut. Started the engine this morning. "Check transmission" light and warning beep, and car isn't going anywhere.

Fortunately at the third attempt it went into gear OK and has been fine the rest of the day. Flippin' computers ...

If it is anything like Jaguar it will be no more than a low battery. The S-Type was notorious for it.

Otto
7th September 2017, 08:45 AM
That's quite possible, it only seems to happen from a cold start. The battery voltage measures 12.2v which I would have thought was perfectly fine, though of course it will dip significantly during cranking. The battery is only two years old. However, when I worked at Joseph Lucas in the early 70s it was common knowledge that OEM batteries were made with cardboard cell separators for cheapness and designed to last no longer than the warranty period! The Alfa Romeo forums do suggest the battery needs to be 100% for the electronics to work properly - as an electronic engineer that slightly offends me :rolleyes:. The warranty is three years though so I should get a free replacement!

Naughty Nigel
7th September 2017, 09:19 AM
That's quite possible, it only seems to happen from a cold start. The battery voltage measures 12.2v which I would have thought was perfectly fine, though of course it will dip significantly during cranking. The battery is only two years old. However, when I worked at Joseph Lucas in the early 70s it was common knowledge that OEM batteries were made with cardboard cell separators for cheapness and designed to last no longer than the warranty period!


The Alfa Romeo forums do suggest the battery needs to be 100% for the electronics to work properly - as an electronic engineer that slightly offends me :rolleyes:. The warranty is three years though so I should get a free replacement!

Overvoltage can also cause problems (on the S-Type at least).

On your latter point you would have thought that automotive electronics engineers would have learnt about voltage stabilisation by now. :rolleyes:

Otto
7th September 2017, 10:27 AM
On your latter point you would have thought that automotive electronics engineers would have learnt about voltage stabilisation by now. :rolleyes:

You might - and that software engineers might have learnt a bit about watchdogs! It shouldn't be difficult to design a system that recovers from a voltage dip properly. Having said that, certain short power interruptions ("brownouts") can upset my central heating timer, sending it into a sort of trance whereupon the display blanks and it just turns everything on continuously. Cycling the mains briefly will knock sense back into it.

KeithL
10th September 2017, 11:55 AM
Overvoltage can also cause problems (on the S-Type at least).

On your latter point you would have thought that automotive electronics engineers would have learnt about voltage stabilisation by now. :rolleyes:

OMG, this is a long and convoluted thread!
As someone who was an electronics engineer in the Automotive industry for 37 years, I feel that I have to comment. Cost is a major point for vehicle manufacturers; margins are very low for cars, and unless something is necessary (which global voltage stabilization isn't), it won't get onto the vehicle.

Modern diesels aren't designed for local short trips; but more importantly, common rail diesels aren't happy when only fed supermarket diesel. It has variable quality (spot market fuel always has) and it's important to have a fill up of good diesel, such as premium Shell or BP, every three or four weeks. If you don't, and I found this with a new Kia some years ago, you do get problems. Diesels are thermally efficient, yes; but that is far from the be-all and end-all.

Modern petrol engines are also becoming much more thermally efficient, perhaps better put as efficiency per engine capacity. Until the current generation, all petrol engines used the Otto cycle; the latest engines are making a lot of use of the Atkinson or Atkinson-Miller cycle. These cycles are simulated (if you look at the Atkinson patent, you'll see why) by the use of variable valve timing. Petrol engines using the Otto cycle are most efficient in terms of fuel in/power out at maximum revs, maximum throttle opening, maximum power; the problem is that they are not efficient at part-throttle. This is where the Atkinson cycle helps enormously. It reduces the effective swept volume on the induction cycle, and maximizes the burn on the power and exhaust cycle.

Toyota first used it on the Prius, and probably because the Prius was very economical in traffic, but less so on a long run, where the engine was running for long periods at small throttle openings. Engines like Ford's three cylinder one liter turbo use the Atkinson cycle approach: it gives high efficiency at low loads, but retains Otto cycle power output when needed, e.g. for power to overtake. There is probably a lot further to develop this technique (I won't call it a technology) but it looks like a far better way forward in the short-medium term than pure electric cars or diesels.

Like diesels, these engines suffer from slow warm-up; the only reason the heater is good in an Otto cycle engined car is that it isn't efficient. The unused fuel energy goes into the water and down the tail pipe. When you reduce the percentage of unused fuel, you reduce the effectiveness of the heater.

The batteries for electric vehicles have a long way to go to become good enough; so has the roadside charging infrastructure. Not just on the availability of generated electricity, but also the frequency of charging points. A neighbour had a Leaf; he found that he had to charge it at least once going down to Essex to see his children. That isn't good enough, and will put off many people from buying electric cars. A good indication of the state of play is that Nissan loan people who buy the Leaf a petrol car when they go on their holidays! Which doesn't really inspire confidence. My neighbour sold it after about a year.

Harold Gough
10th September 2017, 12:11 PM
The 307 saga continues:

The car was going very nicely yesterday, until I got in a northbound traffic queue, south of the Thames, in Sonning.

The queue was moving only about three cars at a time and, as is my practice, I turned the ignition off when stationery. Then, each time the engine was running briefly, I started to get a warning on the monitor, saying STOP and showing an oil can icon. I decided to drive past my home and get a top-up of oil. I never made it, and just as well, in the circumstances.

As I drove over Sonning humpback Bridge, all seemed well, until I descended on the north side. The car suddenly slowed in a four-wheel skid. I was convinced that the engine had seized. Anyway, to get any forward movement, I had to release the clutch and I coasted into the Mill Theatre Restaurant drive.

I tried to start the engine and it wouldn’t turn over.

I contacted the RAC who rescued me. The RAC man found a large pool of oil on the tarmac, when the car was parked. It was just behind the nearside front wheel and the under-engine streamlining boards were holding quite lot of oil. No oil was detected on the dip stick.

While the RAC man was on his way, about 45 minutes after the seizure, the engine started again, presumably due to cooling. I turned it off immediately.

Another piece of information: at the time of the seizure the engine temperature was indicating just over 70 degrees C.

Just to jolly things along, my printer wouldn't print because the ink was low and, thiis morning, our landline phone had no ringing tone and could not send or receive calls. I couldn't reach home via my mobile from the breakdown locality. So I had to hand-wrire a letter to the garage and drop it through their letter box with the car key.

Watch this space for updates!

Harold

Otto
10th September 2017, 12:17 PM
In the case of my car, it's simply the transmission electronics not reacting correctly to a low voltage (I assume). That could surely be fixed in software at no cost - simply disable the transmission computer during cranking.

I was an apprentice at Joseph Lucas Ltd in the 70s where the adage was "it must cost less than 7/6d a pound (weight)"!

KeithL
10th September 2017, 12:27 PM
The 307 saga continues:

The car was going very nicely yesterday, until I got in a northbound traffic queue, south of the Thames, in Sonning.

The queue was moving only about three cars at a time and, as is my practice, I turned the ignition off when stationery. Then, each time the engine was running briefly, I started to get a warning on the monitor, saying STOP and showing an oil can icon. I decided to drive past my home and get a top-up of oil. I never made it, and just as well, in the circumstances.

As I drove over Sonning humpback Bridge, all seemed well, until I descended on the north side. The car suddenly slowed in a four-wheel skid. I was convinced that the engine had seized. Anyway, to get any forward movement, I had to release the clutch and I coasted into the Mill Theatre Restaurant drive.

I tried to start the engine and it wouldn’t turn over.

I contacted the RAC who rescued me. The RAC man found a large pool of oil on the tarmac, when the car was parked. It was just behind the nearside front wheel and the under-engine streamlining boards were holding quite lot of oil. No oil was detected on the dip stick.

While the RAC man was on his way, about 45 minutes after the seizure, the engine started again, presumably due to cooling. I turned it off immediately.

Another piece of information: at the time of the seizure the engine temperature was indicating just over 70 degrees C.

Just to jolly things along, my printer wouldn't print because the ink was low and, thiis morning, our landline phone had no ringing tone and could not send or receive calls. I couldn't reach home via my mobile from the breakdown locality. So I had to hand-wrire a letter to the garage and drop it through their letter box with the car key.

Watch this space for updates!

Harold

That raises a whole new Pandora's box of potential issues! I wonder what the engine oil is. How old is this car? (Years, not miles) Sounds to me as if it has accumulated sludge in the oil ways to the bearings, if it has seized like that. Unless, of course, the oil pump is shot, or its drive sheared. TBH, if I were you, I'd dump that car, and find something else!

Naughty Nigel
10th September 2017, 05:18 PM
A car journalist once said that 'Alfas are great cars, but you'll always be carrying a bit of it in your pocket'!

Jim

I used to ride a Ducati, and learned always to carry the bus fare home; just in case it rained. *yes

Naughty Nigel
10th September 2017, 08:42 PM
The 307 saga continues:

The car was going very nicely yesterday, until I got in a northbound traffic queue, south of the Thames, in Sonning.

The queue was moving only about three cars at a time and, as is my practice, I turned the ignition off when stationery. Then, each time the engine was running briefly, I started to get a warning on the monitor, saying STOP and showing an oil can icon. I decided to drive past my home and get a top-up of oil. I never made it, and just as well, in the circumstances.

As I drove over Sonning humpback Bridge, all seemed well, until I descended on the north side. The car suddenly slowed in a four-wheel skid. I was convinced that the engine had seized. Anyway, to get any forward movement, I had to release the clutch and I coasted into the Mill Theatre Restaurant drive.

I tried to start the engine and it wouldn’t turn over.

I contacted the RAC who rescued me. The RAC man found a large pool of oil on the tarmac, when the car was parked. It was just behind the nearside front wheel and the under-engine streamlining boards were holding quite lot of oil. No oil was detected on the dip stick.

While the RAC man was on his way, about 45 minutes after the seizure, the engine started again, presumably due to cooling. I turned it off immediately.

Another piece of information: at the time of the seizure the engine temperature was indicating just over 70 degrees C.

Watch this space for updates!

Harold

I somehow doubt that your DPF problems and the loss of engine oil are directly related unless contamination of the lube oil somehow lead to an oil seal being destroyed or blown out.

For the oil light to have come on the oil pressure would have needed to be virtually zero (less than about 4 PSI anyway). My guess is that the oil had been leaking fairly rapidly for several minutes before the oil light came on.

Without oil the soft metal main bearing and big end bearing shell faces would seize very quickly indeed at any speed. (The bearing shell faces have a constitution similar to lead solder.) The pistons might take a few seconds longer to seize in the cylinders.

The engine may well turn over again after cooling but I fear the internal damage will be terminal; economically at least.

I don't know much about the specific problems of Peugeot diesel engines, but I do know that a small number of the early 2.7 litre Jaguar and Land Rover diesel engines suffered catastrophic failures owing to gross contamination of the lube oil with diesel fuel oil. This was caused by a software problem which resulted in repeated failed DPF regeneration cycles. These in turn resulted in fuel oil (injected on the exhaust cycle) finding its way past the piston rings into the lube oil, both diluting it and significantly increasing its volume.

Actual failures were caused by dilution of the lube oil to the point where its lubricity was virtually non-existent (hence lubrication failure); excessive volume of lube oil (blowing out oil seals); and most serious of all, engine runaway caused by the engine running on its lube oil/fuel oil mixture and destroying itself.

The chemical properties of fuel oil and lube oil are somewhat different from an oil seal point of view, so I do wonder whether hot diesel oil in your sump may have destroyed an external seal such an oil filter sealing ring. Or maybe the oil filter or sump plug were simply not replaced properly at your last service?

Whatever the cause this sounds expensive!

Harold Gough
11th September 2017, 06:44 AM
I somehow doubt that your DPF problems and the loss of engine oil are directly related unless contamination of the lube oil somehow lead to an oil seal being destroyed or blown out.

I don't think it was but the fact, proven by experience, that an interrupted cyle does pump fuel into the oil gives some potential. Having done a complete cycle recently, that is unlikely to be the cause.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
11th September 2017, 07:22 AM
I don't think it was but the fact, proven by experience, that an interrupted cyle does pump fuel into the oil gives some potential. Having done a complete cycle recently, that is unlikely to be the cause.

Harold

No; but it could have been caused by previous failed regenerations.

A successful regeneration does not reverse the effects (on lube oil) of previous failed regenerations, so if the lube oil becomes contamination with fuel oil it will remain contaminated until the oil is changed.

My guess (and it is a guess) is that an O-ring seal or a plastic component designed only to contain hot engine oil has been damaged or weakened by hot fuel oil.

Alternatively, as I said above, it could just be that the oil filter or sump plug wasn't tightened properly.

Harold Gough
11th September 2017, 08:38 AM
No; but it could have been caused by previous failed regenerations.

A successful regeneration does not reverse the effects (on lube oil) of previous failed regenerations, so if the lube oil becomes contamination with fuel oil it will remain contaminated until the oil is changed.

It was changed immeditely after the (only known) failed regeneration.

No; but it could have been caused by previous failed regenerations.

My guess (and it is a guess) is that an O-ring seal or a plastic component designed only to contain hot engine oil has been damaged or weakened by hot fuel oil.

Alternatively, as I said above, it could just be that the oil filter or sump plug wasn't tightened properly.

The garage is going to look at the cause of the oil loss before doing anything else. Any damage to a seal would have been months ago so, I want to believe, that seems unlikely.

Harold

KeithL
11th September 2017, 02:19 PM
The engine may well turn over again after cooling but I fear the internal damage will be terminal; economically at least.
Whatever the cause this sounds expensive!

Nigel, I'm with you on that! By the time you've had the engine stripped, the crank reground, new shells, and the whole lot reassembled, including any other issues found, it can't be economical on a car worth two grand. Even buying and fitting another engine, either s/h or as a refurbished one, is going to cost more than it's worth doing.

And would you feel like trusting it again? Surely not.

Harold Gough
11th September 2017, 03:04 PM
Nigel, I'm with you on that! By the time you've had the engine stripped, the crank reground, new shells, and the whole lot reassembled, including any other issues found, it can't be economical on a car worth two grand. Even buying and fitting another engine, either s/h or as a refurbished one, is going to cost more than it's worth doing.

And would you feel like trusting it again? Surely not.

The car has done 13,000 miles. It should be worthwhile repairing it, not least that I have invested in a new flywheel! The cost of a car of similar low mileage would be unaffordable for me.

Harold

KeithL
11th September 2017, 03:14 PM
The car has done 13,000 miles. It should be worthwhile repairing it, not least that I have invested in a new flywheel! The cost of a car of similar low mileage would be unaffordable for me.

Harold

All I can say is, yer pays yer money and yer takes yer chance.....

DerekW
11th September 2017, 03:35 PM
Use the scrappage marketing campaigns to get a newer vehicle.
How long has it taken the car to do 13000 miles, too low is almost as bad as to high a mileage.
Once upon a time I bought an E reg car when H was the current letter with 12k or so miles, it needed the engine rebuilding due to oil / lubrication issues in the engine.

(A long time ago)

Jim Ford
11th September 2017, 03:52 PM
All I can say is, yer pays yer money and yer takes yer chance.....

..... especially with a French car!

;^)

Jim

KeithL
11th September 2017, 04:04 PM
Use the scrappage marketing campaigns to get a newer vehicle.
How long has it taken the car to do 13000 miles, too low is almost as bad as to high a mileage.
Once upon a time I bought an E reg car when H was the current letter with 12k or so miles, it needed the engine rebuilding due to oil / lubrication issues in the engine.

(A long time ago)

I think it's only against new cars, Derek. But I concur about the mileage being too low. That's why I asked how old the car is earlier. Depending on the age, it may have monograde oil, non-detergent. If so, it will have built up sludge. And it sounds as if it hadn't warmed up properly when it seized, which may be an indicator.

Harold Gough
11th September 2017, 04:34 PM
Use the scrappage marketing campaigns to get a newer vehicle.

I can't find the bit which applies to a vehicle without a functioning engine.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
11th September 2017, 09:30 PM
I can't find the bit which applies to a vehicle without a functioning engine.

Harold

A bit of polish and it will be back on the forecourt in a few days.

They will sell it with an extended warranty so it won't cost the garage when it goes bang at the end of the road. :rolleyes:

Harold Gough
12th September 2017, 06:12 AM
A bit of polish and it will be back on the forecourt in a few days.

They will sell it with an extended warranty so it won't cost the garage when it goes bang at the end of the road. :rolleyes:

Nigel,

You missed your vocation!

I'm waiting for the garage to report back on the cause of the loss. If they start asking who last touched the drain plug, it was them, 6 months ago.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
12th September 2017, 08:22 AM
Nigel,

You missed your vocation!

Harold

No; I am just extremely cynical and despairing about the rip off culture of so many businesses these days. The motor industry is one of the worst offenders, but sadly is by no means alone any more.

The mantra seems to be 'shaft the customer at every opportunity, then if caught out ignore, quote terms and conditions, and if all else fails, disappear'. The internet has made things 100 times worse as so many transactions are not made face to face, and it is easy to hide behind a website and 'Response Forms' that do not work.

Alternatively you can direct dissatisfied customers to an overseas call centre, where they can speak to hand-picked operatives who speak little English (or pretend not to), and who will tell you to wait an hour before trying again. :mad:

Coming back to cars, we had an interesting experience with a low mileage, one year old Astra that we bought from one of the big national dealerships.

We took the car out for a test drive and were generally happy with it, but I noticed there was a clutch judder. We agreed to take the car if the clutch problem was fixed.

The next Saturday we went to collect the car, and were treated to the usual bullshit, with the car in the showroom surrounded by red ropes and with a red blanket over it. I was told that the clutch had been replaced, but that it would take a few miles to 'settle in'.

Everything seemed fine, but the clutch judder kept on returning to the point that the car became almost un-drivable in stop-start traffic and in multi-story car parks. I called the salesman who said he would make a note, and that it would be fixed at the next service.

The next service came. The car was now two years old, and still well within warranty, and had covered around 22,000 miles.

The mechanic reported severe clutch judder, (I had already told them that), so I asked them to fix it under warranty. Initially it seemed the work would be done, but then they came back and said that the clutch was a "wear and tear item", and was only covered to 18,000 miles. If I wanted the clutch replaced it would cost me £1,100!

"But I reported it to the Salesman." "Ahh yes; but he doesn't work here any more and there are no notes on your file"

"But what about the Evans Halshaw extended warranty that you sold me?" "I'm sorry, that only covers sudden, unexpected failures. This has been going on for some time hasn't it?"

The fall out from this went on for months with letters to and from Head Office. In the meantime a search online showed that the clutch problem was well known in several models of Astra, Corsa and others, and that there was a factory approved fix for it.

I was on the point of issuing proceedings when I heard that Evans Halshaw Vauxhall (the branch I used) had been prosecuted by Trading Standards at Middlesbrough Magistrates Court for lying to a customer, and basically selling him a car for £6,000 that should never have been on the road.

I faxed head office threatening court action and sending a copy of the newspaper report. I received a phone call within the hour apologising for the oversight and asking when I would like the work done. :rolleyes:

Harold Gough
12th September 2017, 08:36 AM
I think it's only against new cars, Derek. But I concur about the mileage being too low. That's why I asked how old the car is earlier. Depending on the age, it may have monograde oil, non-detergent. If so, it will have built up sludge. And it sounds as if it hadn't warmed up properly when it seized, which may be an indicator.

The oil was changed by a long-established garage six months ago. Not warmed up? It had been driven cross-country (up to 60mph ) for about 40 muinutes.

Harold

Harold Gough
12th September 2017, 08:42 AM
Use the scrappage marketing campaigns to get a newer vehicle.

For those who dream of a new car, perhaps as a scrappage deal, and anticipate the "new" smell of the interior, the smell is of pthallates (esters of). They have health hazards for males:

http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NEWSCIENCE/oncompounds/phthalates/phthalates.htm

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/newscience/phthalates-and-mens-lower-hormone-levels

There is also suspicion about causing asthma in young children.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
12th September 2017, 08:48 AM
I think it's only against new cars, Derek. But I concur about the mileage being too low. That's why I asked how old the car is earlier. Depending on the age, it may have monograde oil, non-detergent. If so, it will have built up sludge. And it sounds as if it hadn't warmed up properly when it seized, which may be an indicator.

I thought monograde oils went out with Castrol R?

None of the multigrades and fancy synthetic oils smell anything like as good. :D

Harold Gough
12th September 2017, 09:46 AM
I have just been told my car is OK.

I don't understand the full details but a pipe on the back of the turbo had come adrift and dumped the oil. Most of what I will have to pay will be for a cleanup off the oil from the undercar boards. The garge has taken it for a test drive. Of course, their are no guarantees.

Harold

KeithL
12th September 2017, 10:00 AM
I thought monograde oils went out with Castrol R?

None of the multigrades and fancy synthetic oils smell anything like as good. :D

I can't remember when multigrades came in that were suitable for diesels. Just had a quick look on the net, and the top hit was someone saying that Detroit Diesel and Allison both specify 30 or 40 Monograde. That was in 2013. I have a vague recollection that the common-rail Kia diesel used multigrade, but it had a very small range compared with petrol engine multigrade oils. That was in 2011. Incidentally, diesels require mineral oils, not synthetics, so far as I am aware.

Naughty Nigel
12th September 2017, 10:10 AM
I can't remember when multigrades came in that were suitable for diesels. Just had a quick look on the net, and the top hit was someone saying that Detroit Diesel and Allison both specify 30 or 40 Monograde. That was in 2013. I have a vague recollection that the common-rail Kia diesel used multigrade, but it had a very small range compared with petrol engine multigrade oils. That was in 2011. Incidentally, diesels require mineral oils, not synthetics, so far as I am aware.

I think that has all changed now.

When I had the S-type Ford recommended Magnatec Semi-synthetic 5 w 30 oil (also recommended for all Ford petrol engines). That was a 2007 car but the recommendation dated from 2004.

My XF is supposed to use a fully synthetic Castrol oil which is not generally available to the public. I can use Shell Helix but it never needs topping up anyway.

Otto
12th September 2017, 01:41 PM
I am becoming increasingly relieved that I swapped my one and only diesel for the petrol equivalent! (Ask me again when the MultiAir unit fails, although I am assured that was confined to early models ...)

Harold Gough
12th September 2017, 05:23 PM
Well, I had to pay only £101 and it got me the half mile home in safety and comfort. What a relief, after driving my wife's bucket of bolts, aka Corsa 2001.

Harold

KeithL
12th September 2017, 06:08 PM
I think that has all changed now.

When I had the S-type Ford recommended Magnatec Semi-synthetic 5 w 30 oil (also recommended for all Ford petrol engines). That was a 2007 car but the recommendation dated from 2004.

My XF is supposed to use a fully synthetic Castrol oil which is not generally available to the public. I can use Shell Helix but it never needs topping up anyway.

Don't forget that we don't know the year of Harold's car. I, though, am more familiar with heavy diesels in recent times. Having checked, the current oil for diesels is a 5W/30 C3 spec, a synthetic specifically designed for diesels with particulate filters. Engines are changing so rapidly, hard to keep up since I've been retired seven years now. I was never concerned with tribology when I was at work anyway. Don't need it in the computer systems.....:)

However, sounds as if Harold's car is sorted now. Let's hope it stays sorted.

Harold Gough
12th September 2017, 06:19 PM
Don't forget that we don't know the year of Harold's car.

That's because you have read only about the latest espisode.

In the clutch/flywheel episode:

"I looked this up and, for the 2L diesel, this is quite common, usually at 25,000m, twice what mine had done. Also, the 2003 ones were by far the worst. Mine? 2003, of course. I hope the replacent is not a 2003 original!"

Harold

KeithL
13th September 2017, 01:08 PM
No; I am just extremely cynical and despairing about the rip off culture of so many businesses these days. The motor industry is one of the worst offenders, but sadly is by no means alone any more.

The mantra seems to be 'shaft the customer at every opportunity, then if caught out ignore, quote terms and conditions, and if all else fails, disappear'. The internet has made things 100 times worse as so many transactions are not made face to face, and it is easy to hide behind a website and 'Response Forms' that do not work.

Alternatively you can direct dissatisfied customers to an overseas call centre, where they can speak to hand-picked operatives who speak little English (or pretend not to), and who will tell you to wait an hour before trying again. :mad:

Coming back to cars, we had an interesting experience with a low mileage, one year old Astra that we bought from one of the big national dealerships.

We took the car out for a test drive and were generally happy with it, but I noticed there was a clutch judder. We agreed to take the car if the clutch problem was fixed.

The next Saturday we went to collect the car, and were treated to the usual bullshit, with the car in the showroom surrounded by red ropes and with a red blanket over it. I was told that the clutch had been replaced, but that it would take a few miles to 'settle in'.

Everything seemed fine, but the clutch judder kept on returning to the point that the car became almost un-drivable in stop-start traffic and in multi-story car parks. I called the salesman who said he would make a note, and that it would be fixed at the next service.

The next service came. The car was now two years old, and still well within warranty, and had covered around 22,000 miles.

The mechanic reported severe clutch judder, (I had already told them that), so I asked them to fix it under warranty. Initially it seemed the work would be done, but then they came back and said that the clutch was a "wear and tear item", and was only covered to 18,000 miles. If I wanted the clutch replaced it would cost me £1,100!

"But I reported it to the Salesman." "Ahh yes; but he doesn't work here any more and there are no notes on your file"

"But what about the Evans Halshaw extended warranty that you sold me?" "I'm sorry, that only covers sudden, unexpected failures. This has been going on for some time hasn't it?"

The fall out from this went on for months with letters to and from Head Office. In the meantime a search online showed that the clutch problem was well known in several models of Astra, Corsa and others, and that there was a factory approved fix for it.

I was on the point of issuing proceedings when I heard that Evans Halshaw Vauxhall (the branch I used) had been prosecuted by Trading Standards at Middlesbrough Magistrates Court for lying to a customer, and basically selling him a car for £6,000 that should never have been on the road.

I faxed head office threatening court action and sending a copy of the newspaper report. I received a phone call within the hour apologising for the oversight and asking when I would like the work done. :rolleyes:

Many moons ago I had a Triumph Dolomite 1850. Nice car, except you couldn't keep paint on it. I needed a part, and went to our local main dealer. I had to order it. When it came, I had a problem with what they offered me (can't remember why now). In front of me in the queue was a chap who had a three year old Jaguar 3.8. He wanted a top hose. The same spares man told him it wasn't available as a spare part. The guy went ape! "You're telling me I have to scrap a three year old car for a top hose?" Eventually, "OK, what can I do then?" Answer, "I dunno, maybe try Halfords." The guy went out seething.
Well, come the Monday morning, i decided to ring JLR Service and complain. Chap answered, and listened to my complaint. "You've come through on the internal?" "Yes, I'm at Browns Lane." "Oh well, I can tell you that we get so many complaints about XXXXXXX that we don't bother logging them any more." "So why are they still selling our cars?" "They would sell foreign ones instead." "Fine, let them mess up the foreigners' customers instead!" "Oh, you can't think like that, sir!" and rang off. XXXXXXX a few years later went bust in Coventry, making 70 sales and service staff redundant.

I became a head of department at Jaguar. You wouldn't believe the hassle I had (and I wasn't alone!) with that garage over MCP cars. But that's another story.

KeithL
13th September 2017, 01:14 PM
That's because you have read only about the latest espisode.

In the clutch/flywheel episode:

"I looked this up and, for the 2L diesel, this is quite common, usually at 25,000m, twice what mine had done. Also, the 2003 ones were by far the worst. Mine? 2003, of course. I hope the replacent is not a 2003 original!"

Harold

H'mm. I considered buying a 5 yr old C-Max with the 1.6 version of that engine. It had the guts of an arthritic snail, and I went for petrol instead. I understand that the 1.6 diesel has some other problems, which also get expensive around 60,000 miles. The one I looked at had done....55,000. In the event I went for a 10 month old 1.6 Zetec. Lively enough since I don't belt around any more, 125 hp, and economical (around 40 mpg). And that's a well-proven engine, except for the variable valve timing head.

I've experienced driving a diesel Corsa (we had a number of them at work) and the drive to the turbo either sheared or seized. It was fun getting that back; if I opened the throttle more than a smidgin, it pretty much died. I got back in first gear at all of 10 mph... And that car had done just 9000 miles.

I've also known someone who had an Audi A4 diesel. At 44,000 it shed some cam lobes.

Seems to me that diesels aren't worth the hassle for normal domestic motoring.

Naughty Nigel
14th September 2017, 04:23 PM
Many moons ago I had a Triumph Dolomite 1850. Nice car, except you couldn't keep paint on it. I needed a part, and went to our local main dealer. I had to order it. When it came, I had a problem with what they offered me (can't remember why now). In front of me in the queue was a chap who had a three year old Jaguar 3.8. He wanted a top hose. The same spares man told him it wasn't available as a spare part. The guy went ape! "You're telling me I have to scrap a three year old car for a top hose?" Eventually, "OK, what can I do then?" Answer, "I dunno, maybe try Halfords." The guy went out seething.
Well, come the Monday morning, i decided to ring JLR Service and complain. Chap answered, and listened to my complaint. "You've come through on the internal?" "Yes, I'm at Browns Lane." "Oh well, I can tell you that we get so many complaints about XXXXXXX that we don't bother logging them any more." "So why are they still selling our cars?" "They would sell foreign ones instead." "Fine, let them mess up the foreigners' customers instead!" "Oh, you can't think like that, sir!" and rang off. XXXXXXX a few years later went bust in Coventry, making 70 sales and service staff redundant.

I became a head of department at Jaguar. You wouldn't believe the hassle I had (and I wasn't alone!) with that garage over MCP cars. But that's another story.

That story doesn't surprise me in the least, although I doubt the dealership would get away with it now if they were still in business.

JLR are becoming quite mercenary with dealers, just like every other manufacturer, although their sales volumes are obviously lower.

They got some bad press for taking their franchise away from RA Creamer of Knightsbridge, who had supplied Jaguar and Land Rover cars to HRH for many years. Apparently they didn't have suitable customer facilities, so HRH couldn't spend a penny in the Ladies when dropping her Jag off for a service. :)

shenstone
15th September 2017, 11:57 AM
JLR are becoming quite mercenary with dealers

Some JLR dealers don't need help to be awful.. as a committed LR fan (see signature) I went out shopping for a new 4x4 of some type because my Grand Vitara which has taken us over hill and dale and many, many interesting places finally showed her age and mileage 208k and the gearbox was on its way out and a few other noises I was not happy with.

Every car dealer I went in made me incredibly welcome and could not be more attentive and helpful .... except one one!

Everywhere else a salesman had keys within moments and was able to get me on a test drive within minutes of asking for one. Not in the Land Rover dealer

We got the keys fast enough and had a sit in a 2nd hand freelander 2, but the real problems started when I said I would like to take it for a drive

"We have a procedure" we have to put you in for a finance deal before we go out ... I don't want to I said I plan for a cash purchase ... that caused problems as it was insisted on so all the answers re salary etc. go down as "no comment"

"We have a procedure" we have to appraise your car before we go out ... I don't want to I said I plan for a cash purchase and I know its only worth scrap to you ... but they still insisted on taking the pictures and asking the questions... frankly its an old car been used hard and I am sure will only be scrapped, but it still took 15 minutes

"we have a procedure" we have to do all the paperwork before we go for a drive

At about this point I lost it and spotted about 5 staff on an upper level and walked up the stairs to ask if someone could expedite as the young man serving me was new and it was not his fault at all it was after all a "procedure" he had been told to follow. I'm simply told "this area is private you will need to leave" - there was no sign so how would I have known, but I left anyway

A moment later down the stairs comes the sales manager so I said to him I was getting frustrated by the delays and his only answer .. you got it "We have a procedure that has to be followed", no apology or anything, I commented "maybe your procedure is not a good one" and he asked "do you expect me to be able to do anything about it". that was his only comment as he walked away

Having said all that about following procedure many know I work for a life sciences company and I know the importance of following procedure but I really feel for the young guy. He was as helpful as he could be but what a nightmare sales process, and what an example from his seniors in terms of poor customer service

in the Toyota, Jeep and Suzuki garages the same process that took about 45 minutes and stress took about 2 minutes with a smile

We did eventually get to go for a drive and I quite liked the car, but I coudn't face going back in there to deal with the uninterested and unhelpful sales procedure so there is one land Rover dealer that I can't recommend

Actually reflecting on it, the last time I had tried to purchase a car in there 15 years ago I remember not getting good service which is why I purchased the GV in the first place

I bought another Suzuki!

Regards
Andy

KeithL
15th September 2017, 12:24 PM
Sounds like they still think they are a BL dealership.....

Naughty Nigel
15th September 2017, 12:49 PM
Interesting that you should say that Andy as we had a very similar experience when buying a used Corsa for my wife's daily commute; in not just one but two garages.

In both cases the car in question was a very low mileage vehicle in pristine condition with a very good spec, but about three years old. The car we finally bought cost about £6,400 in total.

Now I realise that is a lot of money to some people, for whom finance or a bank loan would be their only option, but like you we wanted a simple cash purchase. And therein lies the problem I suspect, as salesmen and dealerships probably make more money from selling finance deals and other extras than the cars themselves.

However, they kept pushing finance, and like you, we were asked all sorts of questions about household income and expenditure (which I refused to answer); all apparently to determine whether we could afford to buy a £6,400 car. This was all before we were allowed a test drive.

I wouldn't mind but the Salesman had complimented me on my nearly new XF which we had driven onto their forecourt in, so it wasn't as if we had turned up in a banger!

Now oddly enough, the second car was purchased from a main dealer around 200 miles from home. They had no compunction about taking a £100 'holding deposit' before we had even seen the car, but we had to go through the same routine before actually test driving the car that we had put a deposit on. :rolleyes:

KeithL
15th September 2017, 01:21 PM
When I bought the last two cars, I didn't experience any of that from either of our local Ford dealers. Just asked if I would need finance, and I said 'no', and that was the end of it. I paid for the car with a debit card, which I thought might faze them, but no, no problem.

Naughty Nigel
15th September 2017, 01:30 PM
When I bought the last two cars, I didn't experience any of that from either of our local Ford dealers. Just asked if I would need finance, and I said 'no', and that was the end of it. I paid for the car with a debit card, which I thought might faze them, but no, no problem.

I think it all depends on the targets set by Head Office. When I bought the XF they offered me three years free servicing if I took out the minimum finance package, which I think was for £6,000. The only stipulation was that I had to wait until month 7 before paying it off!

They don't mind taking debit cards as the payment is secure, and doesn't cost the dealership anything. Credit cards are another matter as the dealer typically has to pay upwards of 1.5% commission.

KeithL
15th September 2017, 03:35 PM
I think it all depends on the targets set by Head Office. When I bought the XF they offered me three years free servicing if I took out the minimum finance package, which I think was for £6,000. The only stipulation was that I had to wait until month 7 before paying it off!

They don't mind taking debit cards as the payment is secure, and doesn't cost the dealership anything. Credit cards are another matter as the dealer typically has to pay upwards of 1.5% commission.

I was surprised that the Ford dealerships (one being the main dealer) didn't try to persuade me to go for finance. They did try on the uninsured loss insurance, the Diamond Brite and something else. Par for the course!

Otto
15th September 2017, 03:48 PM
I do wonder about some car dealerships. A colleague of mine once went to our local Volvo dealer to have a look at a car only to be confronted by a somewhat toffee-nosed salesman who asked whether "sir is suitable for a Volvo". He walked out. I am still awaiting an Alfa Romeo 156 brochure from what is now a former dealer in St Albans - that was when the 156 was a brand new model! I bought another Saab instead.

Fortunately Piccadilly motors in Knaresborough have been the model of good service. When I was considering swapping my diesel Giulietta for a petrol last year the salesman handed me the keys and said "take it out for a drive, see you soon". They remembered I had been a cash buyer of the diesel and didn't attempt to persuade me otherwise, and we agreed a deal very easily. I paid by debit card. The salesman asked about GAP insurance but took no for an answer without argument. I seldom have occasion to visit the showroom but if I do (and I did yesterday because of an electrical fault) they greet me by name as soon as I walk in, offer me coffee and ensure I'm satisfied with the car before I leave. I would recommend them to anyone!

Harold Gough
7th September 2018, 07:36 AM
I just noticed it is a week before the anniversary of the last entry. I'm sure regular readers will have missed this. :D (Anyone unfamiliar with the original subject might like to check on that before replying to any comments).

In brief, this is about on-board computer-controlled burning off of particles starting to block the exhaust filter.

This have been going well, with the occasional motorway drive keeping the filter acceptably clean. Too good to be true? Of course it was.

Just a reminder that my Peugeot 307 2L has yet to do 16,000 miles. I recently learned that I am one of the luck ones: only my 110 bhp model has this system.

4-5 weeks ago (aka a tankful of diesel) the VDU gave the usual warning that the filter needed to be regenerated. Normally, this comes up a few times a month, days apart, until I ensure that a regeneration takes place. Then there may be a gap of 2 months (I only do about 1,000 mpa) before we start the routine again.

Not this time. From a few seconds after I start the engine till I turn if off, it is not just a warning but it is locked in limp mode, max revs in any gear just under 3,000 rpm. Normally, anything like this is cancelled by turning the ignition of and on. No way!

I even disconnected the car battery briefly, to try and wipe the computer's memory. No change.

The "wisdom", including that on a specialist filter cleaner's website, is that the car can no longer clean the filter, as it is 75%+ blocked. It has to be an expensive specialist intervention.

Eventually, I referred it to my regular garage man. He confirmed that I have a half tank of cleaner fluid (the 5L is supposed to last 160,000m) and found an error code for an "open circuit". He referred me to a trusted car electrician who used to work for the local Lucas centre, now long defunct.

After many investigations, the electrician found that there was no open circuit and that the computer (ECU) was generating out random, faulty codes*. The ECU has now been sent away to a specialist for remedial treatment.

The electrician (also does MOT's, etc) also tried a forced regeneration of the filter and it wouldn't run, the filter being very clean.

* This would explain why my local garage (February) found a code saying that the recycling fluid reservoir was empty and the main dealer found it it be full. I believe my mechanic actually took a look!

Harold

Naughty Nigel
7th September 2018, 08:15 AM
Well I am glad that was finally resolved. DPF systems seem to cause enough problems by themselves without intermittent electrical faults joining in!

Since our earlier discussions regarding DPF problems I have heard that using the wrong engine oil can create difficulties. In short the lube oil must be specified for DPF equipped vehicles and not all are.

TimP
7th September 2018, 08:58 AM
DPFs seem to cause more troubles than they solve, especially if it’s a car doing low annual mileage, the received wisdom seems to be that anying under 10-12k miles per annum is not worth buying a diesel for. My 2013 diesel Mini was doing less than 10K (more at time of purchase though) and was fine DPF wise as it got a good thrashing both ways to and from work. It’s useage has changed dramatically now as my wife uses it for work, only doing 12-odd miles a day and I’m convinced this will eventually cause DPF issues. Never getting another damn diesel whatever the stupid government tries to foist upon us.
Don’t get me started on oil changes! 2 years between changes? Ridiculous!

OM USer
7th September 2018, 08:59 AM
You need to use a low ash low sulphure oil with DPF engines... so they don't get blocked as quickly. Around town my engine does a regeneration every 150 miles. Every 5 or so regenerations it decides I need a sevice as the oil will be too contaminated to protect the engine (the extra diesel pumped into the cylinders on the exhaust stroke to burn off in the DPF and raise the temperature to burn the particulates to ash seeps past the piston rings). Latest theory is that when the engine is cold you should drive in sport mode to bring the temperature up more quickly.

Harold Gough
7th September 2018, 09:23 AM
Well I am glad that was finally resolved. DPF systems seem to cause enough problems by themselves without intermittent electrical faults joining in!

Since our earlier discussions regarding DPF problems I have heard that using the wrong engine oil can create difficulties. In short the lube oil must be specified for DPF equipped vehicles and not all are.

Thanks, Nigel.

Regarding oils, it seems that one low in SAPs (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus and Sulphur) are the ones and fully synthetic at that.

I forgot to mention that, during the limp mode month, I did three motorway runs, two specifically to try to break out of it.

Harold

Harold Gough
7th September 2018, 09:26 AM
DPFs seem to cause more troubles than they solve, especially if it’s a car doing low annual mileage, the received wisdom seems to be that anying under 10-12k miles per annum is not worth buying a diesel for.

The equation is different if it has done only 4,700 miles and cost just over £2,000.

I am still well ahead on costs!

Harold

Harold Gough
7th September 2018, 09:28 AM
Latest theory is that when the engine is cold you should drive in sport mode to bring the temperature up more quickly.

Will my dealer bolt that on for me? :confused:

Actually, I don't hang about much in any car!*chr

Harold

DerekW
7th September 2018, 09:31 AM
Do you all apply the same stringent ownership cost analysis to the cameras as you say we should apply to the ownership of cars?

Naughty Nigel
7th September 2018, 09:33 AM
Ahhem, no. Especially with 120 roll film costing what it does. :o

But that is a different point entirely. :)

Harold Gough
7th September 2018, 09:37 AM
Do you all apply the same stringent ownership cost analysis to the cameras as you say we should apply to the ownership of cars?

Pretty much so. I certainly don't buy the first one on offer and I have waited years for certain lenses to be at an acceptable price. I certainly don't update because Olympus has brought out a new model with a slightly shorter list of missing features!

Haroldf

TimP
7th September 2018, 09:40 AM
Do you all apply the same stringent ownership cost analysis to the cameras as you say we should apply to the ownership of cars?

Certainly not! A car purchase is potentially a long term ‘investment’ whereas at the rate that camera kit gets updated nowadays it’s much more of a casual purchase with no expectation of value for money or longevity any more!
A car is an unfortunate necessity, a camera less so. :)

Harold Gough
7th September 2018, 09:41 AM
Ahhem, no. Especially with 120 roll film costing what it does. :o

I last used that in one of those basic cameras (circa 1950s) with no setting and a lift-up metal-frame viewfinder.

Harold

Harold Gough
7th September 2018, 09:52 AM
Certainly not! A car purchase is potentially a long term ‘investment’ whereas at the rate that camera kit gets updated nowadays it’s much more of a casual purchase with no expectation of value for money or longevity any more!
A car is an unfortunate necessity, a camera less so. :)

Alternatively, we could consider that, however poor the performance and reliability, the car gets you somewhere, whereas however good a camera is, poor driving may block progress.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
7th September 2018, 01:10 PM
I last used that in one of those basic cameras (circa 1950s) with no setting and a lift-up metal-frame viewfinder.

Harold

You don't know what you are missing Harold.

The WLF on the RZ67 is a joy to use, even if you have forgotten to wind the film on properly. :o

Otto
7th September 2018, 03:15 PM
I had an RB67 for a while, a monster of a thing that weighed a tone, especially with a longish lens attached. Much too big and heavy though it could deliver the goods, but I ended my MF days with a Mamiya 6MF rangefinder kit. The 6MF was a sort of giant Leica and weighed about the same as my OM-4Ti with 35-105 lens. It had warning lights and interlocks for everything but nothing to remind you to take off the lens cap!

Naughty Nigel
7th September 2018, 07:47 PM
I had an RB67 for a while, a monster of a thing that weighed a tone, especially with a longish lens attached. Much too big and heavy though it could deliver the goods, but I ended my MF days with a Mamiya 6MF rangefinder kit. The 6MF was a sort of giant Leica and weighed about the same as my OM-4Ti with 35-105 lens. It had warning lights and interlocks for everything but nothing to remind you to take off the lens cap!

The RZ67 is a beast I grant you, but it is a joy to use just as long as you don't have to carry it too far.

I also have a Mamiya 645 which still produces remarkable results but is much lighter to carry and is still a joy to use.

There is nothing quite like composing using a big, bright, uncluttered waist level finder with the loupe lens on top.

MJ224
8th September 2018, 08:31 AM
I still have my Yashicamat 124g, but have to say its a long time since a film went through that. Alas digital is so fast and convenient...……...Instant Gratification ………...:(

As is my Electric car...…………...*chr

OM USer
10th September 2018, 03:30 PM
Back to the cars and I have been told to only top the oil up to the 3/4 mark to allow space for fuel contamination during regeneration. The oil level rises between oil changes!

TimP
10th September 2018, 03:44 PM
So all this fuel is ending up in the engine oil, the very same engine oil they tell us will last around 20K miles / 2years. Can’t see it helping matters somehow!

OM USer
10th September 2018, 08:56 PM
So all this fuel is ending up in the engine oil, the very same engine oil they tell us will last around 20K miles / 2years. Can’t see it helping matters somehow!

It doesn't! That is why the engine service light comes on every 4 or 5k miles (sometimes somewhat less) rather than the 20K in the book. It counts the number of regenerations and then just switches the light on.

shenstone
10th September 2018, 09:03 PM
Never getting another damn diesel whatever the stupid government tries to foist upon us.

I don't know... my 30 year old Landy has the only engine that the British Army will have (300TDi) and whilst it's not permitted in London (no issue to me) it also has no fancy stuff (which is why the Army like it) and has to be tested against the rules of the time ..

Still quite a few old Landy's on the road because if you consider the miles I do (not a lot) it's actually more environmentally friendly not to waste the energy that went into building it by replacing..

On your related point of mini's .. our Classic mini (petrol) just had a Subframe failure :( it can be rebuilt... and is going to be .. not at bionic man prices either !

regards
Andy

Naughty Nigel
10th September 2018, 09:54 PM
Back to the cars and I have been told to only top the oil up to the 3/4 mark to allow space for fuel contamination during regeneration. The oil level rises between oil changes!

That is only partly correct. It is failed regenerations that contaminate lube oil with fuel oil. Successful regenerations should not.

JLR solved this problem with an ECU software update, but failed regeneration is still possible under certain driving conditions and will contaminate the lube oil.

OM USer
11th September 2018, 10:54 AM
That is only partly correct. It is failed regenerations that contaminate lube oil with fuel oil. Successful regenerations should not.

JLR solved this problem with an ECU software update, but failed regeneration is still possible under certain driving conditions and will contaminate the lube oil.

I must disagree. It is the excess fuel pumped into the cylinders to be burnt in the DPF. Some of it slips past the oil rings to contaminate the sump. This happens regardless of whether the regeneration completes successfully or not but I will allow that if the DPF is not reaching temperature quickly enough (from driving conditions such as being in a 30mph area and not being able to give it some welly) then regeneration will take longer before succeeding or timing out resulting in more contamination.

Naughty Nigel
11th September 2018, 09:56 PM
I must disagree. It is the excess fuel pumped into the cylinders to be burnt in the DPF. Some of it slips past the oil rings to contaminate the sump. This happens regardless of whether the regeneration completes successfully or not but I will allow that if the DPF is not reaching temperature quickly enough (from driving conditions such as being in a 30mph area and not being able to give it some welly) then regeneration will take longer before succeeding or timing out resulting in more contamination.

As I understand the process, regeneration is triggered by excessive back pressure across the DPF. This is most likely to happen when the engine is given some head, accelerating up a long incline, for example.

Certain conditions must be met for regeneration to be initiated. These include sufficient fuel level, adequate engine temperature and in some cases ambient temperature. These safeguards are intended to ensure successful regeneration.

Regeneration is initiated by injecting fuel oil during the exhaust stroke. The fuel oil burns in the hot exhaust gases and raises the temperature of the DPF accordingly.

All of the injected fuel oil should be burnt as described, but some conditions allow unburnt fuel oil to find its way into the oil sump.

JLR suffered a problem with some of their 2.7 V6 diesel engines, (mine didn't seem to be affected), but in most cases this was resolved with a software update. I don't know whether corresponding Ford, Peugeot or Citroen engines were affected in the same way, as it seems individual manufacturers are responsible for writing their own engine and gearbox management code.

OM USer
12th September 2018, 01:44 PM
There are 2 pressure sensors in the DPF (pre and post) and the difference in the reading triggers the regeneration when it gets too high (assuming the other factors you mention are met). Alas there is no software update for my JLR 2.2 to help with DPF regeneration issues.

Harold Gough
13th September 2018, 08:38 AM
The ECU , due to its age/condition, could not be tested, etc., by the specialists so I need a replacement, and not a used one. I am about to make enquiries.

Harold

Harold Gough
19th September 2018, 08:16 AM
The ECU , due to its age/condition, could not be tested, etc., by the specialists so I need a replacement, and not a used one. I am about to make enquiries.

Harold

It seems that they are unobtainable. In the meantime, the car is running as though there was never a problem. I am keeping revs below 3,000 rpm, at least for the time being.

Harold

Harold Gough
21st September 2018, 10:46 AM
I can't help wondering what the options are when a vehicle fitted with one of these filters needs a replacement exhaust pipe.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
21st September 2018, 11:17 AM
I can't help wondering what the options are when a vehicle fitted with one of these filters needs a replacement exhaust pipe.

Harold

Just like any petrol powered car fitted with a catalytic converter; the exhaust pipes and silencers come after the filter and/or catalytic converter, so that is the only part that needs to be replaced.

(Note that DPF filters also incorporate a catalytic converter to deal with NOX.)

Some earlier cars equipped with catalytic converters had these fitted underneath the car so there was a short length of exhaust pipe between the exhaust manifold and the catalyst, but the current practice is to fit these directly to the exhaust manifold (or turbocharger if fitted) so that they heat up as quickly as possible.

Put simply, the DPF and/or catalytic converter is a stand alone unit which is separate to the exhaust pipe.

The photograph below shows what a DPF looks like, courtesy of Google. As you will see there are flanges at each end for connection to the remainder of the exhaust system.

https://quickautoparts.com.au/796-thickbox_default/nissan-pathfinder-r51-25l-diesel-particulate-filter.jpg

Harold Gough
21st September 2018, 01:37 PM
Just like any petrol powered car fitted with a catalytic converter; the exhaust pipes and silencers come after the filter and/or catalytic converter, so that is the only part that needs to be replaced.

Thanks, Nigel.That is the preferred answer. I suspect that it is 15 years old but there is no evidence of a problem so far.

However, the limp mode is back again as of a couple of hours ago.

Harold

Harold Gough
22nd September 2018, 06:31 AM
the limp mode is back again as of a couple of hours ago.

Harold

Actually, it isn't. It's the warning about old blocked filter. I got up to 40mph in second, 30mph being the limit in limp mode.

Harold

Jim Ford
22nd September 2018, 09:05 AM
(Note that DPF filters also incorporate a catalytic converter to deal with NOX.)


Hmm - I thought catalytic converters were only to deal with unburnt hydrocarbons. How would it deal with nitrogen oxides - you need to supply energy to reduce them back to nitrogen and oxygen AFAIK? (Note: My chemistry is very sketchy!)

Jim

Naughty Nigel
22nd September 2018, 12:42 PM
Hmm - I thought catalytic converters were only to deal with unburnt hydrocarbons. How would it deal with nitrogen oxides - you need to supply energy to reduce them back to nitrogen and oxygen AFAIK? (Note: My chemistry is very sketchy!)

Jim

The answer to your question Jim is exhaust heat.

Catalytic converters in petrol cars are intended to remove unburnt hydrocarbons but also deal with CO and NOX.

Catalytic converters in diesel vehicles are also intended to deal with CO and NOX but don't really have to deal with unburnt fuel in the same way. The newer AdBlue systems also add urea to the exhaust gases to further clean up NOX emissions.

Catalytic converters in diesel engines perform a different function to the DPF, although both are usually combined into one unit.

If you want to know more Wiki explains it in a lot more detail than I can! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter)

Naughty Nigel
25th September 2018, 09:29 PM
This is very interesting!

BBC - MOT diesel test not performed in NI for 12 years (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-45643031)

Harold Gough
26th September 2018, 06:09 AM
This is very interesting!

BBC - MOT diesel test not performed in NI for 12 years (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-45643031)

We need a hard border to keep the filthy, polluting threats to health out.

Harold

Harold Gough
10th December 2018, 07:11 AM
Patient update:

The heater fan ceased function making demisting impossible by heating the screen. During the replacement of the resistor unit, a split was seen in the DMF regeneration fluid supply line. That repaired, there is still an "open circuit" code. It is now suspected that fluid is shorting out the supply control electronics.

The ECU indicates that no regeneration cycle has ever happened. So is it a coincidence that the demands for one only went away when I had the Redex product in the tank?

The ECU also indicates the temperature of air intake to be minus 40C!

Yesterday I was told an Italian whiz on ECUs was in town. He can wipe their memories and remap them. I have asked for him to be put in touch.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
10th December 2018, 08:55 AM
The ECU also indicates the temperature of air intake to be minus 40C!

Harold

This is a common problem I believe. Air intake sensors seem to have a limited life on all cars; usually going open circuit. They 'fail safe' at - 40 °C which can affect certain functions, but does not usually generate a fault code.

In petrol engines a failed air intake sensor can also result in over-fuelling at start-up, but fuel mix is generally governed by the Lambda sensor (or sensors) on the catalytic converter as soon as they become hot enough to report in for work.

We can hope that your sensor is preventing DPF regeneration but there can be many other reasons too.

Outside temperature sensors (the things that tell you how hot/cold it is outside) can also create their own problems. Once again these usually 'fail safe' at - 40 °C. Many drivers ignore them, particularly on older cars, and then wonder why the air conditioning doesn't work on a hot day! On some cars a failed sensor will also trigger the heated windscreen, rear screen and mirrors which can cause its own problems.

Harold Gough
10th December 2018, 10:36 AM
Thanks, Nigel.

One interesting thing is that there is only (according to the computer) 20% (1L) of the DMF left. As it also says there has been no regeneration cycle, where did it go?

My outside air temperature reading looks OK.

Harold

Zuiko
10th December 2018, 11:50 AM
I recently changed my 2L diesel (45mpg, £180.00 pa tax) for a 1L petrol (38mpg, £30.00 pa tax). How can this be right? *shrug

Naughty Nigel
10th December 2018, 11:55 AM
My outside air temperature reading looks OK.

Harold

The outside temperature sensor is different to the incoming air temperature sensor, which is usually fitted somewhere between the air filter box and the engine's inlet manifold.

With regard to the AdBlue fluid, this is injected into the exhaust system in tiny quantities whenever the engine is running. It isn't needed for regeneration.

However, the DPF must have regenerated at some point otherwise it would be clogged solid. Maybe the ECU's history was cleared by the garage when you had problems last year?

Regeneration usually takes place every 500 - 850 miles apparently, depending on driving style, etc.

Naughty Nigel
10th December 2018, 12:00 PM
I recently changed my 2L diesel (45mpg, £180.00 pa tax) for a 1L petrol (38mpg, £30.00 pa tax). How can this be right? *shrug

Because mathematically, and under test conditions it produces less CO2 per kilometre driven than you old diesel. NOX output is also lower which I think affects the tax band for petrol Vs diesel.

We have a 1.4 Corsa (petrol) which is supposed to do around 58 MPG overall, but it struggles to do 40 MPG except on a very long run. Apparently this is quite normal.

TimP
10th December 2018, 12:12 PM
I recently changed my 2L diesel (45mpg, £180.00 pa tax) for a 1L petrol (38mpg, £30.00 pa tax). How can this be right? *shrug

It was a blip, I did the same but with the opposite effect, 2l diesel, £30 tax to 1l petrol, £140 tax.
The recent tax changes have started (who’d have seen it coming!;) ) to swing the pendulum back in favour of the gummint once again.

Zuiko
10th December 2018, 12:15 PM
Because mathematically, and under test conditions it produces less CO2 per kilometre driven than you old diesel. NOX output is also lower which I think affects the tax band for petrol Vs diesel.

We have a 1.4 Corsa (petrol) which is supposed to do around 58 MPG overall, but it struggles to do 40 MPG except on a very long run. Apparently this is quite normal.

Thanks Nigel. Mathematically and under test conditions says it all!

I must admit I was hoping for rather more than 38mpg but taking into account the lower tax and lower fuel price I probably won't be any worse off. Until they think of some other way they can justify to make us pay more for choosing not to use the public transport that isn't available...… :rolleyes:

Otto
10th December 2018, 12:21 PM
If my (petrol) Alfa Romeo had a manual gearbox it would be £110 tax. As it's automatic it's £30. Crazy!

Naughty Nigel
10th December 2018, 12:26 PM
If my (petrol) Alfa Romeo had a manual gearbox it would be £110 tax. As it's automatic it's £30. Crazy!

If you look at the figures you will probably find the CO2 emissions are slightly lower; just enough to put it into a lower tax bracket.

Otto
10th December 2018, 12:32 PM
Yes, that's exactly the case. The automatic is 1g/km of CO2 lower. It just shows the craziness of the system - put the tax on fuel and people who pollute the most will pay the most.

Harold Gough
10th December 2018, 01:21 PM
Yes, that's exactly the case. The automatic is 1g/km of CO2 lower. It just shows the craziness of the system - put the tax on fuel and people who pollute the most will pay the most.

As my car is French-made, I can put on a yellow jacket and pay no tax at all! :D

Harold

TimP
10th December 2018, 01:30 PM
As my car is French-made, I can put on a yellow jacket and pay no tax at all! :D

Harold

Yeah, but you might have to burn some sheep to really get your point across.

Harold Gough
10th December 2018, 04:31 PM
Yeah, but you might have to burn some sheep to really get your point across.

Lamb and mint sauce is my favourite.*chr

Harold

TimP
10th December 2018, 05:45 PM
Lamb and mint sauce is my favourite.*chr

Harold

But not badly cooked in the middle of the road by a Frenchman in a yellow jacket surely!

Harold Gough
10th December 2018, 06:00 PM
But not badly cooked in the middle of the road by a Frenchman in a yellow jacket surely!

The French would never serve with mint sauce. How do you cook lamb in a yellow jacket? Do you stuff the pockets with rosemary?

Harold

TimP
10th December 2018, 06:18 PM
The French would never serve with mint sauce. How do you cook lamb in a yellow jacket? Do you stuff the pockets with rosemary?

Harold

Sous vide of course.

Naughty Nigel
18th December 2018, 11:48 AM
Thanks Nigel. Mathematically and under test conditions says it all!

I must admit I was hoping for rather more than 38mpg but taking into account the lower tax and lower fuel price I probably won't be any worse off. Until they think of some other way they can justify to make us pay more for choosing not to use the public transport that isn't available...… :rolleyes:

Driving patterns have a big effect on fuel economy; possibly even more so than driving style.

Our little Corsa is seemingly up to temperature within about three or four miles, but the MPG is poor unless we use it for much longer journeys; which is not what most people buy a Corsa for really.

My wife drives almost exactly ten miles each way to and from work on mostly main-ish roads. Traffic is not usually a problem, but overall MPG is rarely better than 40 MPG. However, when we have used the car for much longer journeys (100 miles plus) it will return 50 + MPG.

There are a couple of things you might like to try. Firstly we find that Esso and Shell unleaded provides a good 2 - 4 MPG improvement over supermarket fuels. Secondly, a dose of Redex in each tankful also seems to help. It only had 6,000 miles on the clock when we bought it, and 20,000 miles now, so it is still virtually new.

Our daughter 'inherited' our old 1.6 16V Mk V Astra, which like the Corsa struggled to do 40 MPG, although it is a bigger, heavier car with a more powerful engine. However, with a dose of Redex added to Shell Regular Unleaded it manages 46 MPG overall, with 50 MPG on the long runs to university and back.

(Wilco usually sells Redex for £2 a bottle. Tesco also have offers on it from time to time.)

You might also look into having the engine re-mapped. Apparently much of the problem is that fuelling of petrol engines is not individually tuned, but rather the ECU is set to 'safe' air/fuel mixtures, which means that rather more fuel is injected than is needed. (Lean mixtures tend to run much hotter, but overly-rich mixtures waste fuel and cause flat-spots.)

I have been quoted around £200 to remap the Cora, which is claimed to iron out the many flat spots and provide at least 10% improvement in fuel economy. It seems like a lot of money to pay but at £60 for a tankful of unleaded. :(

Diesel engines can also benefit from remapping but I am more circumspect about that.

Naughty Nigel
18th December 2018, 11:56 AM
As my car is French-made, I can put on a yellow jacket and pay no tax at all! :D

Harold

That's OK. The Brits will pay it for you; until March at least. :D

DerekW
18th December 2018, 11:59 AM
There is quite a small industry doing remaps for Volvo diesels. Volvo actually market one type of remap - The Polestar - it extends the torque over a greater range of engine revolutions.

Naughty Nigel
18th December 2018, 12:07 PM
There is quite a small industry doing remaps for Volvo diesels. Volvo actually market one type of remap - The Polestar - it extends the torque over a greater range of engine revolutions.

Interesting. Volvo must be about the only manufacturer to actively endorse remapping. The claimed power gains from some diesel engines are quite staggering too, with 25 - 40% being easily achievable it seems, and with fuel savings too!

Gains from petrol engines are much more modest, but there are other advantages including a reduction in engine wear (through less dilution of lubricating oil).

It is interesting that many car manufacturers (notably BMW) now use one common engine across several models, with differing engine outputs achieved entirely by electronic means, so no more high-lift cams, polished ports or high compression heads. :)

Jim Ford
18th December 2018, 12:57 PM
Gains from petrol engines are much more modest, but there are other advantages including a reduction in engine wear (through less dilution of lubricating oil).

I've considered having my Skoda Octavia VRs remapped for lower down torque. There's 180 horses under the bonnet, but they're temperamental arabs. When I'm towing a trailer I need cart horses!

Jim

Naughty Nigel
18th December 2018, 01:10 PM
I've considered having my Skoda Octavia VRs remapped for lower down torque. There's 180 horses under the bonnet, but they're temperamental arabs. When I'm towing a trailer I need cart horses!

Jim

As you will know Jim more power = more torque and vice versa.

Remapping is claimed to get rid of flat spots which are a particular problem in naturally aspirated petrol engines; but anything that optimises the fuel/air mixture throughout the engine speed range will provide a wide range of benefits.

With reference to another thread I wonder how much fuel and emissions would be saved if every car was remapped for economy rather than using the manufacturer's 'safe' default values? All they are doing is saving a stage in the manufacturing process.

I believe many fleet vehicles run by big operators (Royal Mail, BT, Etc.) are remapped as a matter of course.

Jim Ford
18th December 2018, 01:33 PM
As you will know Jim more power = more torque and vice versa.

Oh yes - 2πNT/33000 earned me my bread and butter when I worked on helicopter gas turbine testing when I'd finished my apprenticeship!

Jim

Harold Gough
23rd February 2019, 04:53 PM
Another revival of this saga!

Today, hopefully, saw the problem solved.

The blocked filter messages had been appearing more frequently that ever, in spite of my very low mileage. My mechanic did a house call with his code software but could not get the vehicle to do a forced recycling of the filter. It ran but to no effect, the diode display still saying the filter was blocked.

Then he gave me some encouraging news. There was an Italian specialist in town who was brilliant at dealing with ECUs. I finally had to get my car MOTed, the Tax also expiring next week. It seemed that the Italian might be available.

He was and (using Peugeot software) diagnosed an open circuit on the integral ELOYS tank pump. A replacement unit was required and I opted for a new one instead of a used one (half the price). I asked for 3L of fluid to be supplied, the tank holding 5L but at about £40/L.

All was done and then there was a sensor error. A pressure sensor on one side of the filter had been subjected to excess pressure. A new one was fitted.

I got the vehicle back about an hour ago, after it being away for a week.

My mechanic had obtained 4.5L of fluid (updated version) for £100. The Italian had probably remapped my ECU as a bonus. (His English is not too good).

The whole job cost about £700, including all the electronic work for £50, the dealer test (open circuit not detected) with no remapping having previously cost £90.

I now have a car with 16,000 miles on the clock which drives accordingly.

I have yet to take it for a run.

Harold

Harold Gough
12th March 2019, 08:33 AM
I have run the car (not a great deal of mileage) for two weeks since to new tank and pump were installed during which I would previously have expected several messages to clear the filter and at least one limp mode episode.

I have experienced none of the above.

Harold