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sapper
21st January 2017, 04:16 PM
I have an EM 1 with four batteries for sale, but it seems I cannot send the batteries through the post or by carriers.
Anyone know how I can get round this?

Zuiko
21st January 2017, 04:30 PM
Be economical with the truth? ;)

Naughty Nigel
21st January 2017, 05:59 PM
Be economical with the truth? ;)

That would be my instinct too, but I gather there have been prosecutions for sending non-declared lithium ion batteries through the post. Amazon was a highest profile example, but there have been others.

Apparently it is OK if you send Li Ion batteries in their original packaging, (i.e. the original blister pack), or fitted into equipment.

The main concern is the safety of mail sent by air, but it is difficult to know whether RM sends its longer distance domestic mail by road, rail or air these days. I suspect a package sent from (say) Devon to Edinburgh may well go by air, whilst it is unlikely that the same package would fly to (say) London.

Cerebus
21st January 2017, 07:08 PM
The easiest option is to send the camera + 1 battery installed in the camera.

However, it *is* possible to send up to 2 additional spare batteries provided they are separately wrapped and you put a sticker on the package notifying the carrier that there are Li-Ion batteries inside.

See also: https://business.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/898/~/restricted-goods---uk "The maximum number of batteries allowed in each package is the number that may be connected to the equipment plus two spares."

sapper
21st January 2017, 07:29 PM
Thanks guys, very helpful.

Wreckdiver
21st January 2017, 11:17 PM
I had a portable battery charger (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00OJXVDAU/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_45?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A296JJ7EW4ORVE) that failed under warranty. Arranged a refund through Amazon and got the relevant return label printed and a warning label that indicated the danger of the contents of the package. The return package was destroyed by Royal Mail, despite the warning label. I still got my refund from Amazon but the supplying company clearly never got their faulty product back.

What I don't understand is that a replacement item was offered but if I had accepted would that have been destroyed also? The item I returned complied with Royal Mail's posting requirements but they still destroyed the package :confused:

Steve

DerekW
21st January 2017, 11:40 PM
I had a portable battery charger with a big battery, the battery expanded and burst open the plastic case, I could see the battery swollen up like a balloon - I passed it on to the battery collection point.
I was curious to find out what type of material would ooze out if I burst the battery but sense prevailed and I let it be.

MJ224
22nd January 2017, 10:20 AM
How would be receive batteries without being posted??

I think, as said, as long as the battery is not in the gadget, and is isolated, then this is the best solution, and maybe only solution.

Just re read the PO regulations, they say a battery in the gadget is OK as long as the gadget is well boxed???????????

raichea
22nd January 2017, 10:40 AM
If it's installed in a device, it's not going to be accidentally shorted out.

pdk42
22nd January 2017, 11:18 AM
I suspect the perceived risk is shorting out the terminals. That can cause a lot of current and heating - both internal to the battery and in whatever causes the short. Li batteries are quite flammable so the risk of fire is very real. A properly-wrapped battery is no higher risk than one in a device but of course one person's "properly-wrapped" is another's fire hazard so the carriers take the lowest-risk route.

Personally, I think the current rule is guaranteed to cause fraud so it needs appropriate handling (e.g. fireproof outer cases in the carrier's distribution chain) and education rather than impractical rules.

Naughty Nigel
22nd January 2017, 12:33 PM
............. I could see the battery swollen up like a balloon - I passed it on to the battery collection point.
I was curious to find out what type of material would ooze out if I burst the battery but sense prevailed and I let it be.

Probably a gel of sulphuric acid.

Sulphuric acid of the concentration used in lead acid batteries is unpleasant, but not particularly hazardous if handled sensibly, (rubber gloves, etc.).

The electrolyte from leaking Alkaline, NiCad and NiMH cells is nastier, as it is strongly alkaline, (potassium hydroxide - KOH), and will cause skin burns. It will also destroy equipment, and strip paint!

jdal
23rd January 2017, 09:16 AM
CollectPlus don't explicitly ban them, they say "We shall not carry gases, pyrotechnics, arms and ammunition or corrosive, toxic, flammable, explosive, oxidising or radioactive materials or any other noxious, dangerous or hazardous goods or goods likely to cause damage. ". I know these batteries contain corrosive material, but you can carry them in a camera ok, so I read that as saying if they are securely and safely packaged, they do not contravene their regulations.

https://www.collectplus.co.uk/terms-and-conditions

gphemy
26th January 2017, 04:34 PM
Apparently it is OK if you send Li Ion batteries in their original packaging, (i.e. the original blister pack), or fitted into equipment.


That was my understanding too, but a careful read of the Royal Mail rules posted by Cerebus proves otherwise! "Lithium ion/polymer and Lithium metal/alloy batteries sent in isolation are prohibited." Cerebus posted the Business user rules. The consumer rules are identical, adding only the line that parcels with these batteries must be handed over a Post Office counter (where you will be grilled by the assistant as to the contents of the parcel).

"Other carrier services are available".

Piers

sapper
26th January 2017, 07:10 PM
"Other carrier services are available".

Piers[/QUOTE]

But other carriers have the same restrictions. I think it depends on UK law, not carriers accepting the risk.

Naughty Nigel
27th January 2017, 11:12 AM
(where you will be grilled by the assistant as to the contents of the parcel)........

Piers

And asked whether you home insurance is due for renewal, etc. etc. :mad:

Petrochemist
27th January 2017, 02:06 PM
It appears as well as sending batteries in a device (or connected to it) batteries can also be sent with an electronic device but 'not connected to it or in it'. Sending them separately is not allowed.
This offers an interesting loop hole. Send the batteries suitably wrapped & protected from shorting with an old transistor or similar electronic component - The regulations do not say the device has to relevant to the batteries! :)

Petrochemist
27th January 2017, 02:18 PM
Probably a gel of sulphuric acid.

Sulphuric acid of the concentration used in lead acid batteries is unpleasant, but not particularly hazardous if handled sensibly, (rubber gloves, etc.).

The electrolyte from leaking Alkaline, NiCad and NiMH cells is nastier, as it is strongly alkaline, (potassium hydroxide - KOH), and will cause skin burns. It will also destroy equipment, and strip paint!

Strong acids are not any safer than strong bases such as sodium /potassium hydroxide. Both are corrosive & cause skin burns etc.
Sensible handling is generally sufficient for either, though there are always exceptions.

With batteries however the alkaline electrolyte is more likely to be met in a concentrated form. I've had batteries leak & get coated in crystals of caustic, while battery acid is typically ~37% significantly weaker than the 98% we use in the lab.

Naughty Nigel
27th January 2017, 02:27 PM
It appears as well as sending batteries in a device (or connected to it) batteries can also be sent with an electronic device but 'not connected to it or in it'. Sending them separately is not allowed.
This offers an interesting loop hole. Send the batteries suitably wrapped & protected from shorting with an old transistor or similar electronic component - The regulations do not say the device has to relevant to the batteries! :)

I like that approach a lot! *yes

How about packing the battery with a Samsung Galaxy S7 for good measure? :D

Naughty Nigel
27th January 2017, 02:31 PM
Strong acids are not any safer than strong bases such as sodium /potassium hydroxide. Both are corrosive & cause skin burns etc.
Sensible handling is generally sufficient for either, though there are always exceptions.

With batteries however the alkaline electrolyte is more likely to be met in a concentrated form. I've had batteries leak & get coated in crystals of caustic, while battery acid is typically ~37% significantly weaker than the 98% we use in the lab.

I agree with much that you say. My point was that the acid in lead acid batteries is much less concentrated, and less likely to cause burns than the deliquescent potassium hydroxide often found on the casings of alkaline and rechargeable batteries.

As so often it is a case of quality rather than quantity!

Naughty Nigel
27th January 2017, 02:43 PM
Send the batteries suitably wrapped & protected from shorting with an old transistor or similar electronic component - The regulations do not say the device has to relevant to the batteries! :)

The reminds me of an offer that we took up with our local Electric Light Showroom (the Electricity Board) as they used to be called.

Shortly after we were married we bought a new Hoover, taking advantage of a "30 trade in on your old vacuum cleaner" deal.

I really didn't think they would want our old cleaner, but about three months later we received a snotty letter from the Electricity Board warning that if they didn't receive our old cleaner by the end of the month they would add a 30 penalty to our electricity bill, plus a 10 administration charge. :eek:

The problem was that we didn't have another cleaner to give them; well, not one that I wanted to give away. Anyhow, I had to take some rubbish to the local tip, which gave me an idea. I explained the situation to one of the workmen there, and ended up paying 3 for the tattiest looking Hoover you have ever seen, which I took great pleasure in taking along to the Electric Light Showroom on Saturday afternoon. :D

The look on the Manageress' face was priceless. :D:D:D

Naughty Nigel
8th February 2017, 08:37 PM
Did anyone else see this BBC News Report about a train having to be evacuated (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38903863)?

If the Lithium Ion battery pack in an electric drill can cause that much damage imagine having one at least a hundred times that size in your hybrid or electric car! :eek:

I think we can now see why Royal Mail and other couriers are nervous of sending these things by air mail.

Jim Ford
8th February 2017, 09:43 PM
With batteries however the alkaline electrolyte is more likely to be met in a concentrated form. I've had batteries leak & get coated in crystals of caustic, while battery acid is typically ~37% significantly weaker than the 98% we use in the lab.

But I understand that sodium hydroxide absorbs CO2 from the atmosphere, becoming sodium carbonate (washing soda) and then sodium bicarbonate (used in cooking).

The water in spilt dilute sulphuric acid evaporates, making the liquid progressively more concentrated.

Note: Even very low concentrations of sodium hydroxide are dangerous to the eyes. School safety information states that in the event of a splash in the eyes, the eyes should be continuously irrigated with water, until the person gets to hospital.

Jim

Cerebus
8th February 2017, 10:10 PM
Just to let everyone know: last week I had to send my E-M10II back to the vendor because of an intermittent problem with the lens mount (basically the body lost contact with the lens in an unpredictable fashion) and I used Royal Mail Special Delivery. I did ask if I could send spare batteries with the camera not installed in the camera and the person who was helping me said yes I could add 1 spare battery in the package.

I then asked about the fact that the Royal Mail website mentions 2 spare batteries. She had to check with her supervisor but then confirmed that I could indeed include up to 2 spare batteries.

I didn't get the impression that they were too sure themselves about the advice they were giving though. Moral of the story: probably best to ring your local post office if you're thinking of including spare batteries in a package to make sure they will take it.

Naughty Nigel
8th February 2017, 10:22 PM
The water in spilt dilute sulphuric acid evaporates, making the liquid progressively more concentrated.

Up to a point. Sulphuric acid is strongly hygroscopic at higher concentrations, so it wouldn't become too concentrated in our climate. :)

Mrs T
21st February 2017, 09:08 PM
I attended my Dangerous Goods by Road and Sea training today and I did ask about sending these batteries. We worked through the regs, and one battery in a device (with protection against accidental power activation), and other battery well wrapped in a box that can withstand a drop of 1.2m was OK. It didn't need the special mark applied. More batteries I think are OK but then different sections of the rules apply.

sapper
22nd February 2017, 09:37 AM
I attended my Dangerous Goods by Road and Sea training today and I did ask about sending these batteries. We worked through the regs, and one battery in a device (with protection against accidental power activation), and other battery well wrapped in a box that can withstand a drop of 1.2m was OK. It didn't need the special mark applied. More batteries I think are OK but then different sections of the rules apply.

Thanks for this. Trouble is, would the post office person know this? I will ask next time I am in there.

Petrochemist
22nd February 2017, 10:36 AM
I attended my Dangerous Goods by Road and Sea training today and I did ask about sending these batteries. We worked through the regs, and one battery in a device (with protection against accidental power activation), and other battery well wrapped in a box that can withstand a drop of 1.2m was OK. It didn't need the special mark applied. More batteries I think are OK but then different sections of the rules apply.

Many post office parcels go by air where different rules apply, and indeed their own regulations also apply which can restrict things permissible by road, sea & air.
Allthough it's barely relevant for my role, I've had training in dangerous goods transport as relates to our site (hydrocarbons). The regulations for Road / Sea / Air do not tie together at all, with each seaming to come up with their own thresholds on packaging almost at random. There where many cases where the limits where close but not identical yet there was not obvious reason for the differences.

Naughty Nigel
22nd February 2017, 11:59 AM
Allthough it's barely relevant for my role, I've had training in dangerous goods transport as relates to our site (hydrocarbons). The regulations for Road / Sea / Air do not tie together at all, with each seaming to come up with their own thresholds on packaging almost at random. There where many cases where the limits where close but not identical yet there was not obvious reason for the differences.

This is very true. IATA regulations apply to air freight, but there is no correlation with other modes of transport.

Most paints, for example, must be packed in IATA containers, and then placed into boxes with absorbent material such as sawdust.

But legally you couldn't drive through the Dartford Tunnel with these packed materials or take them on a car ferry. :confused:

Mrs T
22nd February 2017, 08:42 PM
I have done IATA once and thankfully avoided it for the last four years!

Naughty Nigel
22nd February 2017, 09:01 PM
I have done IATA once and thankfully avoided it for the last four years!

I can remember collecting some paint samples whilst in France, and then quietly slipping them in to the back of my car to bring them home.

They were all packed in IATA regulation containers in boxes of sawdust and so forth ready for air freight, but in the event I took them by road.

This resulted in a lengthy exchange with a stroppy Frenchman at the ferry terminal, who wouldn't accept that if the samples were perfectly safe to send by air freight they would be fine in the back of a car during an overnight ferry crossing from St Malo to Pompey.

Eventually he wandered off shaking his head and shrugging his shoulders whilst mumbling something rude about Anglaise. :D

Anyhow, it couldn't have been that dangerous or else he would have taken the filthy Gauloise out of his mouth before searching my car. :mad:

Mrs T
22nd February 2017, 09:03 PM
I can remember collecting some paint samples whilst in France, and then quietly slipping them in to the back of my car to bring them home.

They were all packed in IATA regulation containers in boxes of sawdust and so forth ready for air freight, but in the event I took them by road.

This resulted in a lengthy exchange with a stroppy Frenchman at the ferry terminal, who wouldn't accept that if the samples were perfectly safe to send by air freight they would be fine in the back of a car during an overnight ferry crossing from St Malo to Pompey.

Eventually he wandered off shaking his head and shrugging his shoulders whilst mumbling something rude about Anglaise. :D

Anyhow, it couldn't have been that dangerous or else he would have taken the filthy Gauloise out of his mouth before searching my car. :mad:

Ha ha! :D