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Harold Gough
18th November 2016, 07:16 PM
Use "ebay paypal attorney general law suit" as a Google search term for some interesting reading.

Harold

timboo
18th November 2016, 07:22 PM
i have been hit by one recently as follows is the review i left and feedback to ebay.


Sold an item, winning bidder messages asking questions that were clearly contained within body.
Messaged buyer re concerns raised in case they bid in error. payment made item shipped. Buyer complains. ebay advise refund must be given.
refund given item nowhere to be seen. spent 5 hrs on phone. ebay advised seller protection which was incorrect as seller cant commence it.
ebay then said they would contact buyer and let me know. Recalled ebay took speaking to 4 different managers until one noticed a reply from the buyer and told me what buyer had said. Ebay excuse not all advisors have authority to discuss messages. I informed ebay that was the whole point of my call and that staff need training they should be stating they dont have authority and transferring the call rather than saying they cant help you.
Needless to say i have no item no money additional loss re postage. I cant prosecute ebay as its their poor advice in the first place but they are abroad not uk based.
Seriously at the first issue ebay dont care and give customers empty promises they are incompetent tell blatent lies to the customer, one even said they had listened to my calls 5 hrs worth! I challenged it they then changed their stance to not all calls are recoreded and the account notes dont state an advisor mis lead me. Really would an advisor type up all the wrong things they said now?
I give up. I advise everyone with issues raise it with consumer rights so they pass it onto trading standards in a bid to place restrictions on ebays policies etc and way they trade in future.

Further calls made to Ebay to do with buyer not returning an item resulted in Ebay stating that distant selling regulations mean I must have returned item and postage. I quote several managers advising this! Ebay are misleading private sellers as ebays own distance selling regulations clearly state the opposite if you google it. Ebay are abusing their position outside of uk and refunding buyers with no legal right. Be warned no legislation exists to prosecute ebay only option is a buyer via a small claims court and more expense. Ebay will not under any circustances compensate anyone when they are mainly to blame.

According to consumer rights only option is to report to an MP as no available legislation re Ebay basically they can do/say what they like


Needless to say I will never sell on Ebay again Id advise anyone on this forum to avoid selling high risk items

Ian
18th November 2016, 09:36 PM
Ebay used to be terrible for buying things as if you weren't sent what was advertised then it was very difficult to get it sorted out. Ebay would insist on loads of inconsequential evidence to process your complaint. That's not the case anymore, but sellers do chance it. I have bought half a dozen, admittedly low cost, items in the last year that were not as advertised and not only did I get a refund but I was told I could keep the goods.

You do need to be careful if they want you to return things. You need to follow the procedure guidelines laid down by eBay very carefully. One item I returned as instructed by the seller was refunded but they refused to include my return postage. As I hadn't followed the correct procedure (receiving a returns label, etc.) eBay couldn't force the seller to cough-up.

As for selling, always use a reputable tracked shipping service and if the item is valuable, don't sell to someone who hasn't any recent and plentiful good feedback as a purchaser. Exchange eBay emails throughout the process to make sure there is an audit trail and be very precise and truthful with your listing description and images.

I have found eBay's online chat service to be very helpful.

Ian

shenstone
18th November 2016, 09:55 PM
I just tried to sell my first item through ebay. which was clearly marked as pick up only (side steps for a car so heavy, bulky and odd shaped)

I had 2 people with very odd usernames contact asking if I would post to Hull and the second username referenced the date and time the first message was sent

Anyway a 3rd username bid and won, but no money is forthcoming

At least the steps are tucked up in my garage

Not sure I will ever try selling there again. People must think I'm a mug

I have bought quite a lot, mostly low cost but one large item (my Land Rover) but that was (like I've done) pay by ebay or cash on collection

Regards
Andy

Ross the fiddler
18th November 2016, 10:14 PM
I'll buy things, but only from highly rated sellers with good sensible feedback. I haven't sold or will sell anything through eBay for the sort of reasons mentioned here. Unfortunately, my items build up. :o

Naughty Nigel
18th November 2016, 11:21 PM
I have never had a problem with eBay purchases. Over the past year or so I have bought quite a lot of photographic equipment (film cameras, lenses, etc.) from Japan, and all have been excellent.

However, I avoid their 'Global Shipping Programme' (provided by Pitney Bowes) like the plague as it is a total rip off, and in my view is actually illegal, as they collect undisclosed amounts of VAT and import duties but refuse to provide any form of receipt or invoice. Emails and faxes sent to Pitney Bowes are ignored. :mad:

Selling on eBay is a different matter. eBay promise all sorts of buyer protection, but they don't pay a penny. Any buyer protection is paid for by the seller; hence the problems discussed here. eBay won't make a loss on anything.

When I first sold some items on eBay they held on to my money for several weeks because the buyer hadn't left feedback. The buyer had gone away and didn't' respond to requests for feedback so I didn't get paid until he returned from his travels,

Like most such organisations eBay and PayPal hide behind their corporate websites and overseas business statuses, and work on the basis that the vast majority of complainants will give up long before it costs the company any money. :mad:

timboo
18th November 2016, 11:39 PM
You do need to be careful if they want you to return things. You need to follow the procedure guidelines laid down by eBay very carefully.

One item I returned as instructed by the seller was refunded but they refused to include my return postage. As I hadn't followed the correct procedure (receiving a returns label, etc.) eBay couldn't force the seller to cough-up.
The issue with my example above is who is actually to blame logically i say the buyer is clearly buying in a dishonest way, but Ebay facilitate this kind of person, so it could be either.





Ian

In uk if u sell as a private individual ie not a business ebay have no right to force u to refund postage to a buyer, this only applies if u trade as a business.
Ebay try quoting nonsense law over the phone that contradicts a countries law they only do it because they can get away with it. Ebay still need to abide by law regardless of their made up rules. One day there will be some case law where a large number of individuals sue Ebay and win, forcing Ebay to change long term.

iso
19th November 2016, 06:16 PM
Watch this space - currently in a little dispute with a seller of a lens - luckily Nat West have suspended CC payment - which is good given it's 400+ !! Won't say more until final result is known.

Ian
19th November 2016, 09:51 PM
In uk if u sell as a private individual ie not a business ebay have no right to force u to refund postage to a buyer, this only applies if u trade as a business.
Ebay try quoting nonsense law over the phone that contradicts a countries law they only do it because they can get away with it. Ebay still need to abide by law regardless of their made up rules. One day there will be some case law where a large number of individuals sue Ebay and win, forcing Ebay to change long term.

Correct me if I am wrong, but distance selling law in Europe means that if goods supplied are faulty then it's the responsibility of the seller to arrange for the return of the goods (including the cost of shipping) on top of the refund of the original purchase price? Is there any difference between a private sale or a commercial one, in this respect? eBay, in my experience, do indeed ensure that this happens most of the time and haveeven secured full refunds for me from sellers whose products were faulty or not described but ignored my requests for a replacement or refund.

I'm not really sure I understand your point?

Ian

Ian
19th November 2016, 09:51 PM
Watch this space - currently in a little dispute with a seller of a lens - luckily Nat West have suspended CC payment - which is good given it's 400+ !! Won't say more until final result is known.

Is this via eBay? Was the card payment done through PayPal?

Ian

iso
20th November 2016, 05:37 PM
Is this via eBay? Was the card payment done through PayPal?

Ian

Yes ebay and fortunately not through PayPal.:)

Ian
21st November 2016, 07:19 AM
Yes ebay and fortunately not through PayPal.:)

It costs through PayPal but you do get integrated protection with eBay.

Ian

timboo
21st November 2016, 08:45 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but distance selling law in Europe means that if goods supplied are faulty then it's the responsibility of the seller to arrange for the return of the goods (including the cost of shipping) on top of the refund of the original purchase price? Is there any difference between a private sale or a commercial one, in this respect? eBay, in my experience, do indeed ensure that this happens most of the time and haveeven secured full refunds for me from sellers whose products were faulty or not described but ignored my requests for a replacement or refund.

I'm not really sure I understand your point?

Ian


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/image.png (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/91228)


Ebay advisors go against this even when u quote their policies to them and what legislation is. They told me everyone was given a returns policy even when changing their mind. As a private seller this isnt my fault hence why the legislation SHOULD help re not issuing refunds as you are not obliged to offer such refunds. There is a big difference between personal and commercial. The only issue as a seller is 'Not as described' and this is subjective. You see time and time again people on Ebay listing things under multiple words on title line to gain exposure although The descriptions of items are very clear. Ebay will side with a buyer should u use such a method.
My experience wasnt with one person at Ebay it was with various people who claimed to be managers and should have known better.

On a different note Paypal is just as bad their polices read so well until u wish to open a seller protection claim. A seller cannot open a seller protection case only the buer can open a case (so what is the point in seller protection). Ebay and Paypal are now seperate entities Paypal say they have no powers anymore. Makes u realise how expensive and pointless the Paypal fees are as a seller as they offer no protection. Please bare in mind if u use paypal for selling on here as the same rules apply as aseller. The buyer at any point could open a case and the money be refunded! (albeit my experience on this forum has always been positive whether it be buying or selling)

Mdb2
21st November 2016, 09:15 AM
As an aside, I had a slight concern last week my grandson asked if I would purchase an iPhone on eBay as he had the cash with him I agreed. The point is that as soon as I pressed the BUY IT NOW button, the deal was done! Paid by PayPal no transfer to PayPal to put in my password.

I have as far as I know never agreed to this format. Not with either eBay or Paypal. I wonder how secure this method is. I think I would prefer a security check with PayPal on purchasing from eBay.

How would one stand i.e. If something went wrong and someone was to purchase from eBay on my account you are then fighting two corporations?
Kind regards mike

timboo
21st November 2016, 09:27 AM
As an aside, I had a slight concern last week my grandson asked if I would purchase an iPhone on eBay as he had the cash with him I agreed. The point is that as soon as I pressed the BUY IT NOW button, the deal was done! Paid by PayPal no transfer to PayPal to put in my password.

I have as far as I know never agreed to this format. Not with either eBay or Paypal. I wonder how secure this method is. I think I would prefer a security check with PayPal on purchasing from eBay.

How would one stand i.e. If something went wrong and someone was to purchase from eBay on my account you are then fighting two corporations?
Kind regards mike

Sellers list buy it now with immediate payment required sometimes which is why this will have occurred.
I have not been into my settings recently however there may also be something your end, when I updated my Ebay app it altered my returns policy without my knowledge, so anything is possible.

I can see where u are coming from re complications however as a buyer if someone did do what u are saying then as long as ur payment was via paypal and an attached bank card for payment rather than a paypal balance ur bank will show payment as dd so u will be covered under dd guarantee by asking for a dd indemnity claim through ur bank.
I would only use this option as a last resort though as it will put ur paypal balance into a minus and paypal will contact u.
I used such a claim once as paypal were dragging their feet over an expensive item. Eventually they refunded so my balance went back to zero. This was when Ebay and paypal were same company so I can imagine Paypal making matters more difficult dealing with them now.

In addition slightly different situation occurs on Amazon. If u are purchasing an item there are 2 buttons next to each one of which does what ur example did and the other allows u to select payment and deliver. I have been caught out twice due to my ipad and me hitting the wrong button by accident.

Mdb2
21st November 2016, 09:41 AM
Thankyou Timboo, guess that is what could of happened not sure how or why the seller has control of my monies??

What with the amount of cyber crime at the moment you would think that large companies would be making it more difficult for fraud not easier. But then again maybe it's me being a bit old and fuddy duddy.
Kind regards Mike.

Ian
21st November 2016, 12:41 PM
Even if you have hit the Buy it Now button, you normally have to go through the payment procedure separately. Even if you have paid you can get your money back if the reason is valid.

I know there is a lot of cynicism about eBay and PayPal but I have to say that my personal experience of several hundred buying and selling transactions is pretty overwhelmingly positive. Experience is important, I admit, but overall I have no complaints, apart from the fees, but that's another debate! :)

Ian

iso
21st November 2016, 06:01 PM
It costs through PayPal but you do get integrated protection with eBay.

Ian

Ian - what's 'integrated protection'? and does it give more than using your own Credit Card.

timboo
21st November 2016, 07:25 PM
Even if you have hit the Buy it Now button, you normally have to go through the payment procedure separately. Even if you have paid you can get your money back if the reason is valid.

I know there is a lot of cynicism about eBay and PayPal but I have to say that my personal experience of several hundred buying and selling transactions is pretty overwhelmingly positive. Experience is important, I admit, but overall I have no complaints, apart from the fees, but that's another debate! :)

Ian


Experience and knowing the ins and outs of Ebay still wasnt enough in my case having used them for 13 plus yrs. The buyer had less than 20 feedback and kept my item and the money 100 in all so im rather bitter....
Anyway nice to hear something positive about Ebay Ian.

Ian
21st November 2016, 09:25 PM
Experience and knowing the ins and outs of Ebay still wasnt enough in my case having used them for 13 plus yrs. The buyer had less than 20 feedback and kept my item and the money 100 in all so im rather bitter....
Anyway nice to hear something positive about Ebay Ian.

Do I understand correctly that you refunded the purchaser before you received the item back? I don't think that's the correct procedure.

Ian

timboo
22nd November 2016, 12:09 PM
Do I understand correctly that you refunded the purchaser before you received the item back? I don't think that's the correct procedure.

Ian

Buyer refused to return item evidenced in my messages on ebay and I informed Ebay buyer not playing ball. Ebay forced refund and told me to pay for return postage (which they had no right to do). Anyway damage limitation I paid through paypal and item never came. Messaged buyer he ignored pretty much all responses except he had posted it but couldnt provide who he used.
Anyway suppose its at a point let the whole situation fade into the past or push it through the legal system as I still have a contract with the seller but are Ebay responsible. Very complex and not sure even via small claims easy.

Ebay refused to assist at all statged even though I am a victim. Fact of the matter is the buyer appears to have been dishonest throughout and technically could constitute fraud if I wanted to push further against the buyer.


Anyway I wish this topic wasnt created rant over :-)

Naughty Nigel
22nd November 2016, 12:51 PM
Buyer refused to return item evidenced in my messages on ebay and I informed Ebay buyer not playing ball. Ebay forced refund and told me to pay for return postage (which they had no right to do). Anyway damage limitation I paid through paypal and item never came. Messaged buyer he ignored pretty much all responses except he had posted it but couldnt provide who he used.
Anyway suppose its at a point let the whole situation fade into the past or push it through the legal system as I still have a contract with the seller but are Ebay responsible. Very complex and not sure even via small claims easy.

Ebay refused to assist at all statged even though I am a victim. Fact of the matter is the buyer appears to have been dishonest throughout and technically could constitute fraud if I wanted to push further against the buyer.


Anyway I wish this topic wasnt created rant over :-)

I am not entirely sure of the contract position here.

I an not a lawyer but it seems to me that any contract is with eBay, who are effectively making a commission sale whilst obfuscating both buyer's and seller's contact details for their own reasons. Therefore, how can there be a Contact between two parties (the buyer and seller) who have no way of making direct contact before the sale?

Under the circumstances it might still be worth issuing proceedings against the buyer through the County Court, but that will cost you, and there is no guarantee of getting your money back.

It might just frighten the buyer into returning the goods, but if he or she is a compulsive liar, and may not even be of fixed abode, it will get you nowhere.

There are two further possible complications.

Firstly, the buyer might claim that you have no contract with them, (and that their contract was with eBay). As set out above, I think that could be difficult to argue against.

Secondly, even if you were to get judgement, enforcing that judgement can be problematic. There are some people who know how to work the system, and who simply don't care about County Court judgements.

You could issue against eBay, but that would be even more fraught with difficulties as they seem to move their administrative offices to suit themselves. Indeed, I think it is more likely that they would pay UK Corporation Tax than settle in the Small Claims Court. :rolleyes:

Ian
22nd November 2016, 02:45 PM
Ian - what's 'integrated protection'? and does it give more than using your own Credit Card.

PayPal, until recently, was owned by eBay. I don't know the precise details, but it appears that eBay can force a seller to refund you if you have paid through PayPal and there was a problem with the goods, even if the seller doesn't cooperate. I have personally benefited from this, but from what I am seeing on here it seems that this can work against you if you are am honest seller dealing with a dishonest buyer. Many eBay sellers will only accept PayPal payment and even if you use your credit or debit card via PayPal I am not sure using a card will mean the transaction is considered by the your card provider as a purchase that they can provide you protection with. Others with a more intimate grasp of the details will no doubt explain this better.

Ian

iso
22nd November 2016, 06:40 PM
PayPal, until recently, was owned by eBay. I don't know the precise details, but it appears that eBay can force a seller to refund you if you have paid through PayPal and there was a problem with the goods, even if the seller doesn't cooperate. I have personally benefited from this, but from what I am seeing on here it seems that this can work against you if you are am honest seller dealing with a dishonest buyer. Many eBay sellers will only accept PayPal payment and even if you use your credit or debit card via PayPal I am not sure using a card will mean the transaction is considered by the your card provider as a purchase that they can provide you protection with. Others with a more intimate grasp of the details will no doubt explain this better.

Ian

Hi Ian, well I think that does it for me - avoid PayPal. In fact thinking about it, I have declined to purchase stuff where the seller has only taken PP.

Harold Gough
22nd November 2016, 07:02 PM
It used to be that you would only get a Paypal refund if the seller hand sufficient funds in their account.

Harold

timboo
22nd November 2016, 07:04 PM
I am not entirely sure of the contract position here.

I an not a lawyer but it seems to me that any contract is with eBay, who are effectively making a commission sale whilst obfuscating both buyer's and seller's contact details for their own reasons. Therefore, how can there be a Contact between two parties (the buyer and seller) who have no way of making direct contact before the sale?

Under the circumstances it might still be worth issuing proceedings against the buyer through the County Court, but that will cost you, and there is no guarantee of getting your money back.

It might just frighten the buyer into returning the goods, but if he or she is a compulsive liar, and may not even be of fixed abode, it will get you nowhere.

There are two further possible complications.

Firstly, the buyer might claim that you have no contract with them, (and that their contract was with eBay). As set out above, I think that could be difficult to argue against.

Secondly, even if you were to get judgement, enforcing that judgement can be problematic. There are some people who know how to work the system, and who simply don't care about County Court judgements.

You could issue against eBay, but that would be even more fraught with difficulties as they seem to move their administrative offices to suit themselves. Indeed, I think it is more likely that they would pay UK Corporation Tax than settle in the Small Claims Court. :rolleyes:


Totally agree with everything u have said, which is why I am kind of thinking just suffer the loss albeit totally wrong. I am going to raise the issue eventually with my MP when I have produced a file containing all of the facts purly to see if anything can be done to legislate Ebay.

In relation to my contract with the seller consumer rights said he had a contract and by him doing what he has done is a breach as i have supplied goods which forms a contract. Apparently the Ebay part has no bearing but either way I see it as not straight forwards.

Harold Gough
22nd November 2016, 07:24 PM
Just a suggestion:

If you make a purchase on "Ebay.co.uk" Ebay would seem to be clearly operating in the UK, if only virtually. This might give you additional rights. In any case, you have less protection for an auction than for a straightforward purchase.

I would suggest that, whatever the inclination of Ebay to reimburse you or not, their business model relies a great deal on their public image as a safe marketplace.

Harold

timboo
22nd November 2016, 08:02 PM
Just a suggestion:

If you make a purchase on "Ebay.co.uk" Ebay would seem to be clearly operating in the UK, if only virtually. This might give you additional rights. In any case, you have less protection for an auction than for a straightforward purchase.

I would suggest that, whatever the inclination of Ebay to reimburse you or not, their business model relies a great deal on their public image as a safe marketplace.

Harold


Thanks I wish it was that straight forward the only physical building Ebay had was in Dublin and now even that has gone so to deal in writing with Ebay its off to Mumbai or whereever they are based these days all in all would be a mare. Even then I guessing you would need to go through some European court. Ebay appear to not be accountable for anything they say on the phone or do.

If you google ebay reviews there are some none founded reviews but equally some quite worrying reviews in the thousands and some big time power sellers that have left.

Naughty Nigel
22nd November 2016, 09:07 PM
It used to be that you would only get a Paypal refund if the seller hand sufficient funds in their account.

Harold

If you have insufficient feedback, or haven't sold anything on eBay for a while, PayPal won't release any funds until the buyer has left positive feedback. So they have your money!

EBay and PayPal have it all neatly sewn up so there is no chance of them being left out of pocket.

AMc
24th November 2016, 09:48 AM
eBay have an office in Richmond - I've been there myself. It's not a contact centre but it is a physical presence with a phone number ;)

http://www.richmondriverside.com/shops/businesses/ebay

timboo
24th November 2016, 12:34 PM
eBay have an office in Richmond - I've been there myself. It's not a contact centre but it is a physical presence with a phone number ;)

http://www.richmondriverside.com/shops/businesses/ebay


Hi thanks for the info. The numbers diverts to Mumbai customer service again. Useful to know if that address is down as a regestered office.
Richmond isnt a million miles for me I might pop down and see.

Further to my last comment I have just got hold of the leasing company and they inform me that the office isnt customer facing but is deemed as their office should be able to go there. I will give it a whirl.

AMc
25th November 2016, 11:01 AM
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03726028

EBAY (UK) LIMITED
Company number 03726028


Registered office address 5 New Street Square, London, EC4A 3TW Company status Active
Company type Private limited Company Incorporated on3 March 1999