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pdk42
19th October 2016, 10:41 PM
OK, so I bought a nice used E-M5ii. I must be mad, but here is the rationale.

- I recently got a GM5 as a carry anywhere camera but really didn't get on with it. It's just too small and fiddly. I'm coming to the conclusion that I don't get on with very small cameras. So, I sold it for what I paid and had some cash burning a hole in in my PayPal account!

- I'm really thinking of getting the E-M1ii but there are two things that are worrying me - can I cope with the flipping screen and is the Hi Res mode really any good?

- So rather than take a 1500 punt, I thought I'd get the E-M5ii since it'll let me try these two things without spending too much.

Anyhow - what's done is done. I guess if it doesn't work for me at least I can move it on and save 1500 on the E-M1ii. If it does work, then I guess I'll move it on anyhow and get the E-M1ii.

Greytop
19th October 2016, 11:36 PM
I'm feeling sorry for your E-M5 MkII already :)

I guess you've handled one before but what are your impressions after a bit of use?

pdk42
19th October 2016, 11:59 PM
I'm feeling sorry for your E-M5 MkII already :)

I guess you've handled one before but what are your impressions after a bit of use?

I've fiddled with the E-M5ii before of course, but getting a proper feel for a camera takes more than 5 mins in a shop or Olympus event. What little impression I've formed so far about it though is that it has a very high quality feel and a lovely shutter sound - oh, and that flappy screen.

The screen is actually the thing I'm most keen to evaluate properly. My prejudice against it is pretty high and in fact it's this aspect that bothers me about the E-M1ii the most.

drmarkf
20th October 2016, 09:11 AM
Sounds like a reasonable rationale to me!

I fully agree about taking time to evaluate kit, and after swapping one of my E-M1 bodies for an M5ii it has grown on me steadily.

Personally I'd say my real-life positives that I've benefitted from a lot are:

Significantly smaller than the 1 (so I was happy to sell my GM1 "spare body" and replace it eventually with a Fuji X70 which has got some useful differences), and I've got quite small hands so I have found it OK to hold and not too fiddly.

The classy, quiet shutter, great for candid shots indoors when you've got fluorescent lighting so can't go silent. It sounds like my old Voigtlander rangefinder and I love it.

Much less noise at long shutter speeds. I've been doing a lot of landscape shooting using this recently.

I'm agnostic about the screen: as we've discussed before it's a fiddle and more visually intrusive when flipped out sideways but it makes vertical handheld shots so much more reliable. On a tripod with an L bracket is makes some shots easier but gets in the way for others. So 50:50 for me.

I prefer the button layout and arrangements on the 1, presumably because there's more real-estate to play with. That's my only negative: it is slower to make some setup changes on the 5ii.

Do let us know how you get on.

pdk42
20th October 2016, 11:09 AM
Much less noise at long shutter speeds. I've been doing a lot of landscape shooting using this recently.




Actually the long exposure noise issue with the E-M1 is quite some issue. I if a number of 45s+ shots when I was in Colorado recently and some have sang and pepper coloured noise speechless at a level that means they're really only useable for low res internet posting. You certainly couldn't make a large print from them.

Graham_of_Rainham
20th October 2016, 12:39 PM
...The screen is actually the thing I'm most keen to evaluate properly. My prejudice against it is pretty high and in fact it's this aspect that bothers me about the E-M1ii the most.

Me too. But I rarely used it on the E-3 and with OIShare and an iPhone I can have a VF wherever I want.

sdb123
20th October 2016, 12:57 PM
Two positives for me on the articulated screen are (as drmarkf said) the ability to flip the screen down for vertical shots and also folding the screen in...if the truth be told, I like that feature a lot more than I thought I would!

I agree on the "interesting" placement of buttons however it's just something I have to get used to as it's a new (to me) camera.

Jim Ford
20th October 2016, 01:13 PM
I wouldn't get a DSLR without an articulating screen! I find it virtually essential for ground level botanical images.

Jim

Graham_of_Rainham
20th October 2016, 02:01 PM
I wouldn't get a DSLR without an articulating screen! I find it virtually essential for ground level botanical images.

Jim

Having become "old", getting down to do ground level shots is painful. However with the camera attached to a monopole, it works just as well upside down, and using the OIShare on an iPhone, to make the composition and trigger the shot.

Bengeo
20th October 2016, 03:11 PM
Having become "old", getting down to do ground level shots is painful. However with the camera attached to a monopole, it works just as well upside down, and using the OIShare on an iPhone, to make the composition and trigger the shot.

That is a great tip. Not sure how practical it will be for following Sanderling along the beach using the 300mm ..... I'll have to give it a try. Thanks.

Crazy Dave
20th October 2016, 04:01 PM
I've fiddled with the E-M5ii before of course, but getting a proper feel for a camera takes more than 5 mins in a shop or Olympus event. What little impression I've formed so far about it though is that it has a very high quality feel and a lovely shutter sound - oh, and that flappy screen.

The screen is actually the thing I'm most keen to evaluate properly. My prejudice against it is pretty high and in fact it's this aspect that bothers me about the E-M1ii the most.

I'm very much in Paul's camp when it comes to the flippy screen. I've handled the 5-Mk 11 a few times but aethestically, I find it quite ugly compared to the Mk 1, and all that dial overhang, in my opionion, looks a mess. I've got funds squirrelled away for the M-1 Mk 2 but I need to convince myself that I will get better photographs and then there's that flippy screen prejudice to overcome, something, I really do not want to do.

David

Ricoh
20th October 2016, 04:22 PM
Having become "old", getting down to do ground level shots is painful. However with the camera attached to a monopole, it works just as well upside down, and using the OIShare on an iPhone, to make the composition and trigger the shot.
Has to be the best tip I've read for ages. Even without OIShare whilst using my EM5 Mk1 I should be able to see enough to aim adequately.
Simply brilliant Graham !

Ross the fiddler
21st October 2016, 12:51 AM
Having become "old", getting down to do ground level shots is painful. However with the camera attached to a monopole, it works just as well upside down, and using the OIShare on an iPhone, to make the composition and trigger the shot.

Yeah, I know what you mean, although I'm not that old it still takes me 10 times longer to get up than it was to to get down. Well, that's not entirely true, it takes me time to get down too. :rolleyes:

I would love the articulating screen again & really hope I can somehow be able to go for the E-M1 Mk II next year. The E-M5 Mk II would be a backward step for me since I want to use my 4/3's lenses on any new body I might get, plus I prefer the E-M1 with all its controls & capabilities, plus with its inclusive grip.

I do think Paul has done a wise thing though.

OM USer
21st October 2016, 10:17 AM
I'm not sure on the flippy screen and second hand prices are still too high for me just to see what it is all about. Perhaps an E-M5 mark 3 with the new E-M1 II sensor will persuade me to change cameras as its autofocus ability that I look for. Until then I'm investing in lenses.

Crazy Dave
21st October 2016, 10:59 AM
A fisherman died. He awoke to find himself in the most beautiful river
he had ever seen. In his hand was the most perfect fishing rod imaginable
with a 'work-of-art' 16 Quill Gordon fly on the end of his line.
He casts to a rising fish and hooks, lands and releases an
exquisitel 20-inch brown trout. 'I'm in heaven.'
He casts again with the same result. And, again, and again, each time
hooking and landing a perfect fish. Slowly, it starts to occur to our
fisherman that he may not be in heaven at all.

Extracted from Philip Perkis's book - Teaching Photography.

David

pdk42
31st October 2016, 07:24 PM
A fisherman died. He awoke to find himself in the most beautiful river
he had ever seen. In his hand was the most perfect fishing rod imaginable
with a 'work-of-art' 16 Quill Gordon fly on the end of his line.
He casts to a rising fish and hooks, lands and releases an
exquisitel 20-inch brown trout. 'I'm in heaven.'
He casts again with the same result. And, again, and again, each time
hooking and landing a perfect fish. Slowly, it starts to occur to our
fisherman that he may not be in heaven at all.

Extracted from Philip Perkis's book - Teaching Photography.

David

A cautionary tale indeed....

pdk42
31st October 2016, 07:42 PM
Well, I've had a few days to play with the E-M5ii and it's interesting...

1) It's a very nice camera. The shutter sound is lovely and it overall has a very nice feel to it. Unlike the original E-M5, there's just enough of a kink in the front panel to mean that I'm happy to hold it without the need for the add-on HLD grip. This keeps it very small and light. Buttons etc over the original E-M5 are massively improved. Long exposure noise is MUCH better than on the E-M1.

2) The jury is still out for me on the flippy-screen. It's great for portrait orientation shots low down, but I hate the way it sticks out and flaps around for landscape orientation shooting. I find it clumsy, potentially fragile and of course very indiscreet for street shooting. I'm going to stick with it, but I really, really, really wish that Oly could have developed something like the mechanism on the Fuji XT2.

3) The Hi-Res mode is somewhat of a disappointment for me, although it's definitely got benefits. On the disappointment front, I'm finding that there isn't a huge increase in resolution per se. Maybe I'm not using the right lenses, but I'm finding that Hi-Res shots viewed at 100% are a) a bit soft; and b) not actually giving that much more extra detail. The softness can be fixed by a handful of sharpening in LR, but that doesn't add more detail of course. OTOH... noise in Hi-Res shots is much, much better (esp when downsized). I find I can push shadows and exposure enormously before noise gets out of hand and for landscape shooting that is a big, big win.

So, I'm not sure where I'll go when the E-M1ii is out. I'll probably sit out the initial reviews and then decide. The improved AF, frame rate etc holds no interest for me. Its larger size and flippy screen I see as a negative. So, unless it delivers on noise or DR, I don't see it'll offer much over the E-M5ii.

iso
31st October 2016, 07:56 PM
TAKE THIS FROM A CONVERT – Just under a year ago I decided I had had enough lugging around the full blown DSLR kit I owned. (Actually it was easier in the days of SLR!!!) I was also on the verge of a round world trip, so needed something more weight/space friendly. Deep breath. Which small system to go for. MFT but which Brand? The launch of M5 II clinched it for me. (I have bought the Grip, which, Paul, may answer some of your questions). The design and functionality is fantastic. I considered the M1 but really that gets back to being a small SLR size. Of course now I have to learn the unnecessarily complex menu system. But nothing for nothing. ‘Small is beautiful’, so get to love your M5 ll.

shenstone
31st October 2016, 07:56 PM
2) The jury is still out for me on the flippy-screen. It's great for portrait orientation shots low down, but I hate the way it sticks out and flaps around for landscape orientation shooting. I find it clumsy, potentially fragile and of course very indiscreet for street shooting. I'm going to stick with it, but I really, really, really wish that Oly could have developed something like the mechanism on the Fuji XT2.

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand the worry and why its flapping around. .

I flipped the one on the E-30 around to show me the pictures (right back into its home space) when I got the camera and apart from when I need it somewhere else it sits snugly and safe, and as far as I can tell from images the EM5II screen does the same so why would it be flapping ?

About 1 in 1000 uses I put it somewhere else (turning it to face the screen against the camera body for really bad places such as in some caves) and then back again

I've never had a moments worry about it, never had a moments problem

regards
Andy

Ross the fiddler
31st October 2016, 10:49 PM
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand the worry and why its flapping around. .

I flipped the one on the E-30 around to show me the pictures (right back into its home space) when I got the camera and apart from when I need it somewhere else it sits snugly and safe, and as far as I can tell from images the EM5II screen does the same so why would it be flapping ?

About 1 in 1000 uses I put it somewhere else (turning it to face the screen against the camera body for really bad places such as in some caves) and then back again

I've never had a moments worry about it, never had a moments problem

regards
Andy

I liked my E30 too for that (I got used to it anyhow), but with my E-M1 I could discreetly have the screen tilted out with the camera down in front of me & could take shots like all these without being noticed, unlike if having the screen out to the side where it is more obvious.

http://www.fourthirds-user.com/galleries/data/500/thumbs/M3104144_CaOne_adj-cr-s.jpg (http://www.fourthirds-user.com/galleries/showphoto.php?photo=30346) http://www.fourthirds-user.com/galleries/data/500/thumbs/M3104069_CaOne_adj-cr-s.jpg (http://www.fourthirds-user.com/galleries/showphoto.php?photo=30334) http://www.fourthirds-user.com/galleries/data/500/thumbs/M3104068_CaOne_adj-cr_1-s.jpg (http://www.fourthirds-user.com/galleries/showphoto.php?photo=30333) http://www.fourthirds-user.com/galleries/data/500/thumbs/M3104009_CaOne_adj-s.jpg (http://www.fourthirds-user.com/galleries/showphoto.php?photo=30326) http://www.fourthirds-user.com/galleries/data/500/thumbs/M3103973_CaOne_adj-cr-s.jpg (http://www.fourthirds-user.com/galleries/showphoto.php?photo=30318)
The last was cropped from a landscape shot

The design on the X-T2 allows that discreetness in both directions (that is if you can be discreet with it in portrait position & allow that more awkward position for low macro shots etc. & can understand Paul's wish for that design.

*chr

pdk42
31st October 2016, 11:21 PM
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand the worry and why its flapping around. .

I flipped the one on the E-30 around to show me the pictures (right back into its home space) when I got the camera and apart from when I need it somewhere else it sits snugly and safe, and as far as I can tell from images the EM5II screen does the same so why would it be flapping ?

About 1 in 1000 uses I put it somewhere else (turning it to face the screen against the camera body for really bad places such as in some caves) and then back again

I've never had a moments worry about it, never had a moments problem

regards
Andy

Andy - I guess we're all different. Whilst I use the EVF the majority of the time, I do use the rear screen for a couple of things which I find important:

- For street photography. On the E-M1 I can hold the camera at hip level with the screen flipped out and compose easily without anyone noticing I'm taking pictures. Doing that is impossible with the E-M5ii etc since the only way to see the screen with the camera at the hip is to flip it out to the side and then rotate it. That makes the camera much wider and of course the screen is now very visible and not at all inconspicuous. On top of that, the camera is a lot less easy to hold and operate since the screen gets in the way of a good grip and impedes access to some controls.

- For landscape photography on a tripod. This is less of an issue, but I find the screen when folded out to the side to be clumsy - it gets in the way of changing the controls and can block access to the ports for the cable release.

To these I can also things like speed to deploy the screen, concerns about durability of the hinge (esp if knocked) and the general deterioration of the handling.

raichea
1st November 2016, 12:29 AM
Have to say I prefer the flip screen on the E-M1 to a fully articulated screen for all the same reasons as Paul

Steve

Wee man
1st November 2016, 08:18 AM
Paul the camera is usually level for landscape so the screen would be tucked flat into the body with viewing surface out not flapping out to the side.

Wee Man

drmarkf
1st November 2016, 08:28 AM
Paul the camera is usually level for landscape so the screen would be tucked flat into the body with viewing surface out not flapping out to the side.

Wee Man

But if you're using an L plate and the camera's horizontal for landscape format shots it gets in the way of fully flipping out the screen and angling it up. On the M1 you can just set it at any angle you like without an L plate getting in the way for landscape format shots.

Portrait format is, of course, a different matter, but even there all the L plates I have tried do limit the amount of angling you can do.

pdk42
1st November 2016, 09:07 AM
But if you're using an L plate and the camera's horizontal for landscape format shots it gets in the way of fully flipping out the screen and angling it up. On the M1 you can just set it at any angle you like without an L plate getting in the way for landscape format shots.

Portrait format is, of course, a different matter, but even there all the L plates I have tried do limit the amount of angling you can do.

I've been thinking of getting an L plate - you've just given me another reason to dislike the swivel screen!

Ross the fiddler
1st November 2016, 09:50 AM
I've been thinking of getting an L plate - you've just given me another reason to dislike the swivel screen!

No, that just means the L bracket manufacturer didn't design theirs correctly. For the E-M1 & E-M5 there are different designs. For example, the early E-M5 designs which included a grip did not have a cutout for the SD card door & others did. Just do the research & see what options there are, but I do grant you, there is obviously limited room to open the screen if mounted vertically with an L bracket.

drmarkf
1st November 2016, 10:06 AM
Ross - are you aware of an L-bracket for the M5ii that allows unimpeded movement of the screen? I tried a number and couldn't find one that did, but they might well exist...

Ross the fiddler
1st November 2016, 11:02 AM
Ross - are you aware of an L-bracket for the M5ii that allows unimpeded movement of the screen? I tried a number and couldn't find one that did, but they might well exist...

No, since I don't have that model, but that just means those manufacturers didn't use their brain, except Olympus's ECG-2 Camera Grip does allow the L bracket end to be reversed to hang down apparently (if that can help without being a pain in the but). See the ECG-2 Camera Grip User Review at DPReview (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55569619).

OK, on looking at it further, it is just going to be a pain in the a*** with that present design with the articular screen. My best suggestion is, don't use the L bracket attachment for portrait mounting if possible (a bit hard for portaits though) & if doing portrait panos then the better lens may be the Pro 40-150 or 50-200 SWD (or earlier) lens with the lens mount instead (but still use a rail to adjust to the pivot at the entrance pupil point) or don't flip out the screen. :rolleyes:

They shoulda dun the Fuji design! :mad:

pdk42
1st November 2016, 11:37 AM
They shoulda dun the Fuji design! :mad:

Yep - I can't think of any really positive things to say about the current articulated screen design. It might be something the designers are proud of, but from a photographer's perspective it's a clumsy solution. The Fuji design really is any excellent solution.

A switch to Fuji just for something as trivial as a screen hinge sounds stupid though...

Ross the fiddler
1st November 2016, 11:49 AM
Yep - I can't think of any really positive things to say about the current articulated screen design. It might be something the designers are proud of, but from a photographer's perspective it's a clumsy solution. The Fuji design really is any excellent solution.

A switch to Fuji just for something as trivial as a screen hinge sounds stupid though...

......For landscape photography on a tripod. This is less of an issue, but I find the screen when folded out to the side to be clumsy - it gets in the way of changing the controls and can block access to the ports for the cable release.......

Yes, that's true so I hope I can first of all be able to buy the E-M1 Mk II & then, should I really want to use vertical panning, I think I'd be looking at a different mounting system so I can have the screen where I want it without interference. Does it really block access to the cables on the left when the screen is opened to the left? BTW, that won't be a problem on the E-M1 Mk II for the cable remote as it uses it's own connection (as the E-5 & E-3 did being different to the lower models) & that is on the right in front of the SD cards door (#23).
http://www.olympus.com.au/getattachment/Products/Interchangeable-Lens-Cameras/Olympus-OM-D/E-M1-Mark-II/Design/Front/000085008.jpg.aspx?lang=en-AU&width=960&height=689&ext=.jpg

And just because I can, lets look at the back view as well.
http://www.olympus.com.au/getattachment/Products/Interchangeable-Lens-Cameras/Olympus-OM-D/E-M1-Mark-II/Design/Back/000085007.jpg.aspx?lang=en-AU&width=960&height=538&ext=.jpg

Images from this page. http://www.olympus.com.au/Products/Interchangeable-Lens-Cameras/Olympus-OM-D/E-M1-Mark-II/Design

Also, here is the side view.
http://www.olympus.com.au/getattachment/Products/Interchangeable-Lens-Cameras/Olympus-OM-D/E-M1-Mark-II/Features/More-Features/High-speed-transfer/000084872.jpg.aspx?lang=en-AU
Fond here. http://www.olympus.com.au/Products/Interchangeable-Lens-Cameras/Olympus-OM-D/E-M1-Mark-II/Features/More-Features

drmarkf
1st November 2016, 12:06 PM
No, since I don't have that model, but that just means those manufacturers didn't use their brain, except Olympus's ECG-2 Camera Grip does allow the L bracket end to be reversed to hang down apparently (if that can help without being a pain in the but). See the ECG-2 Camera Grip User Review at DPReview (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55569619).

OK, on looking at it further, it is just going to be a pain in the a*** with that present design with the articular screen. My best suggestion is, don't use the L bracket attachment for portrait mounting if possible (a bit hard for portaits though) & if doing portrait panos then the better lens may be the Pro 40-150 or 50-200 SWD (or earlier) lens with the lens mount instead (but still use a rail to adjust to the pivot at the entrance pupil point) or don't flip out the screen. :rolleyes:

They shoulda dun the Fuji design! :mad:

I've just repeated my web search.

There still aren't any statements on either the Olympus or RRS L-plate pages about whether they interfere with the 5ii screen (which I consider frankly misleading in both cases), but reading a variety of real-user threads suggests that the Oly one interferes a lot while the RRS one prevents full articulation but is better.

This is one sort-of solution: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55569634

I use a chinese knock-off L plate that seems no longer to be sold on Amazon, but is extremely similar/the same as this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Neewer-Aluminum-Release-L-Plate-Compatible/dp/B0144M0Q0I/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1478001580&sr=8-4-fkmr2&keywords=olympus+e-m5ii+l+plate+arca

That has a well-locked connection between the forked 'L' portrait part of the mount and the base and is secure when mounted upside down, although personally I wouldn't use it with the 40-150 Pro or heavier lenses, and it moves the axis of the camera off the centre line of the tripod, which partially defeats the object. But it does provide a partial solution.

One hopes this isn't going to be a continuing problem with the 1ii, but I'm not optimistic.

Still, an irritation not a deal killer as long as the other improvements are real and one actually will benefit from them.

Ross the fiddler
1st November 2016, 12:13 PM
I've just repeated my web search.

There still aren't any statements on either the Olympus or RRS L-plate pages about whether they interfere with the 5ii screen (which I consider frankly misleading in both cases), but reading a variety of real-user threads suggests that the Oly one interferes a lot while the RRS one prevents full articulation but is better.

This is one sort-of solution: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55569634

I use a chinese knock-off L plate that seems no longer to be sold on Amazon, but is extremely similar/the same as this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Neewer-Aluminum-Release-L-Plate-Compatible/dp/B0144M0Q0I/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1478001580&sr=8-4-fkmr2&keywords=olympus+e-m5ii+l+plate+arca

That has a well-locked connection between the forked 'L' portrait part of the mount and the base and is secure when mounted upside down, although personally I wouldn't use it with the 40-150 Pro or heavier lenses, and it moves the axis of the camera off the centre line of the tripod, which partially defeats the object. But it does provide a partial solution.

One hopes this isn't going to be a continuing problem with the 1ii, but I'm not optimistic.

Still, an irritation not a deal killer as long as the other improvements are real and one actually will benefit from them.

No, I wouldn't use these plate & side L bracket with the heavier tele lenses but use the provided lens tripod mount instead, since that it what it is designed for & to give balance to mounting of the whole lot. A side bracket (or plate) is not needed at all with those lenses since the camera can be rotated to whatever angle you desire (using the lens's tripod mount).

Walti
1st November 2016, 12:14 PM
Yep - I can't think of any really positive things to say about the current articulated screen design. It might be something the designers are proud of, but from a photographer's perspective it's a clumsy solution. The Fuji design really is any excellent solution.

A switch to Fuji just for something as trivial as a screen hinge sounds stupid though...

It looks identical to the Panasonic design.... I got on just fine with the G3 I had with that design, but understand the desire for the waist level without it hinged out. I think all in all I prefer the current E-M1 design, but it's marginal.

I am being a little thick here, but what's the fascination with the L bracket? My tripod head just tips over.... isn't that the same result?

Ross the fiddler
1st November 2016, 12:18 PM
It looks identical to the Panasonic design.... I got on just fine with the G3 I had with that design, but understand the desire for the waist level without it hinged out. I think all in all I prefer the current E-M1 design, but it's marginal.

I am being a little thick here, but what's the fascination with the L bracket? My tripod head just tips over.... isn't that the same result?

The fascination is to keeping the camera in the centre of pivot (& not off to the side), especially for taken multiple vertical frames from left to right of panoramic scenes, but a rail to move the camera back to pivot under the lens (entrance pupil point) is also needed when there is near & far objects in the scene. A telezoom lens with tripod mount negates that point as I have attempted to describe above.