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Harold Gough
20th February 2016, 02:42 PM
(Just time for a quickie, before we leave! *chr)

I own a Peugeot. I know, it's my own fault!:mad:

Anyway a trio of dubious car hardware issues have come to my attention recently, not Peugeot-specific but I suspect EU regulations as the source.

We have a steep drive, down for the road. For family parking reasons, I am the one who backs in every time. On a dark, wet night, seeing the view to the rear in my mirrors is difficult. I usually rely on my brake lights.

I recently thought it would be good to get additional light, from the reversing lights. There was not as much white light as was expecting.

To cut a longish story shot, (some?) cars now have one reversing light and one rear fog lamp. You need to know that that single red lamp ahead of you in the fog is on the offside.

Just to complete the set, new cars are no longer being issued with proper spare wheels, if at all. Mine has a steel ones, with nuts that are not meant to screw up flush, others have a foam inflation kit. Neither arrangement is supposed to be used for more than getting you to where you can get the damaged tyre repaired or replaced.

I don't see any of the above being a step forward in motoring safety.

Harold

Wally
20th February 2016, 03:44 PM
I fully agree with what you've posted. A major step backwards for no other reason than to save a few bob on the price of the car(s). So much for road safety with regards to see and be seen. As for no spare wheel and, in some cases, no wheel brace or jack, that really is laying it on thick.

For all of the above reasons this is why I have held on to my existing car, a 2002 Renault Scenic+. I'm probably tempting fate but, from new it has been a solid performer with next to no issues. When it comes to convenience, it has more to offer than newer models or other similar makes with regards to access and load carrying abilities. As it ain't broken... I ain't replacing it. *yes

pdk42
20th February 2016, 04:30 PM
I had a Scenic once. It is the worst car I've ever owned for reliability. I got it before it new and sold it after four and a half years and 70000 miles. During that time it needed:

- Window winders replacing 3 times

- New engine mounts (originals perished and drivetrain would clunk loudly when braking or accelerating)

- Replacement front suspension wishbone on off side

- New lock buttons on doors about a half dozen times

- New rear window (heating element failed)

When I got rid of it, it sounded and felt very tired. Its replacement, a Golf TSI, is now over five years old with 55000 miles on the clock . Nothing has failed and it feels still like new.

Harold Gough
20th February 2016, 04:36 PM
- New rear window (heating element failed).

Ah! Rear window heaters. I must have been driving for something like 30 years before I owned a car, of quite a few, with one that worked. I was an agnostic!

Harold

Otto
20th February 2016, 04:42 PM
I don't know if this is still the case but at one time, cars were only required to have one brake light, positioned between the centre and offside of the car. If two were fitted (as was usually the case) both of them had to work and if the nearside one failed you were breaking the law despite complying with the requirement of one light. The law is of course an ass, and this is a good example!

As for spare wheels, on the one occasion I've had a blow-out I needed to use the space-saver spare that was provided with my Saab. The 50 mile limit just about got me as far as a tyre shop. I think these days that tyre failures are so rare, it's a bit of a waste of space to fit a full-size wheel and tyre - never mind the expense. Wheels are much bigger (or wider anyway) than they used to be.

pdk42
20th February 2016, 04:54 PM
On the EU stuff, I'm not convinced any of the things you posted Harold are due to EU regs - but I could be wrong. Michael Gove today, in announcing his intention to campaign to leave the EU, quoted some silly rules though:

- You can't sell olive oil in containers greater that 5 litres in size.

- You can't build a house nearer than 5 km from heathland in order to stop domestic cats attacking wild birds.

I found a few of my own:
European Commission Regulation No. 1677/88, "Class I" and "Extra class" cucumbers are allowed a bend of 10mm per 10cm of length. "Class II" cucumbers can bend twice as much. Any cucumbers that are curvier may not be bought or sold.

COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) No 666/2013 - Domestic vacuum cleaners - From 1 September 2017:

annual energy consumption shall be less than 43,0 kWh/year,

rated input power shall be less than 900W,

dust pick up on carpet (dpuc ) shall be greater than or equal to 0,75. This limit shall not apply to hard floor vacuum cleaners,

dust pick up on hard floor (dpuhf ) shall be greater than or equal to 0,98. This limit shall not apply to carpet vacuum cleaners,

dust re-emission shall be no more than 1,00 %,

sound power level shall be less than or equal to 80 dB(A),

the hose, if any, shall be durable so that it is still useable after 40 000 oscillations under strain,

operational motor lifetime shall be greater than or equal to 500 hours.


On that last one, the actual regulation itself extends to 11 pages of double column A4 and is published in 22 languages. You can read the entire nonsense here if you've got the inclination:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2013.192.01.0024.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2013:192:TOC

I don't want to even think how much that regulation cost or how many nurses the cash may have bought instead.

Harold Gough
20th February 2016, 04:58 PM
I think these days that tyre failures are so rare, it's a bit of a waste of space to fit a full-size wheel and tyre - never mind the expense. Wheels are much bigger (or wider anyway) than they used to be.

Yesterday, we were watching the Channel 5 programme about the RAC in winter floods rescues. The call-out was for a puncture caused by a cut from a deep pothole in a narrow road. Before that one was sorted, another car pulled up behind, with two tyres destroyed. Very soon there were four cars, all in a matter of minutes, and at least one wheel was unusable. Someone put some cones in the pothole to stop further casualties.

Harold

Harold Gough
20th February 2016, 05:07 PM
Brexit, here we come:

This must be contrary to EU law:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/18/tesco-bows-to-customer-demand-in-selling-straight-croissants

This should get us kicked out!

I don't understand this "customer demand". I have trouble finding any British food in Tesco. Polish and ethnic, yes, anything recognisable is hard to find. So who wants the straight ones?

Harold

peak4
20th February 2016, 07:54 PM
Yesterday, we were watching the Channel 5 programme about the RAC in winter floods rescues. The call-out was for a puncture caused by a cut from a deep pothole in a narrow road. Before that one was sorted, another car pulled up behind, with two tyres destroyed. Very soon there were four cars, all in a matter of minutes, and at least one wheel was unusable. Someone put some cones in the pothole to stop further casualties.

Harold

Only 4, I raise you 14, just down the road from me. :eek:
http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/motorist-seeks-others-involved-in-chaos-on-the-parkway-in-rotherham-1-7081289
From what I remember, more came to light later as well.

Jim Ford
20th February 2016, 09:17 PM
I had a Scenic once. It is the worst car I've ever owned for reliability.

I was given a Renault Clio as a 'courtesy' car when my Skoda Octavia went in for a service under warranty. It was horrible! I was frightened that I'd break it with my bare hands, it seemed so fragile. When I pulled on the handbrake the floor flexed so much it felt like I'd pull the brake off - like a ring-pull on a can!

Jim

DerekW
20th February 2016, 11:26 PM
The spare wheel issue of either using the temporary wheel or the gunk pump to seal the damaged tyre are used to reduce the weight of the car and so reduce fuel consumption. This is required as a result of EU meddling in the design of devices that are meant to make a lot of noise, issue lots of smoke, and go like a bat of hell.

The other issue is that the full size wheels and tyres are quite large and require a lot of space to to store the full size spare wheel which makes design of the car more challenging.
This is ignoring the problem of how to carry the burst wheel and tyre (often coated in mud and organic material) in the car along with the luggage when driving to a tyre depot to hopefully buy a replacement tyre.

Harold Gough
21st February 2016, 07:40 AM
This is ignoring the problem of how to carry the burst wheel and tyre (often coated in mud and organic material) in the car along with the luggage when driving to a tyre depot to hopefully buy a replacement tyre.

True, that is a problem but I carry luggage, at most, once a year.

There is always fly tipping. :D

Harold

shenstone
21st February 2016, 03:34 PM
The other issue is that the full size wheels and tyres are quite large and require a lot of space to to store the full size spare wheel which makes design of the car more challenging.

This is ignoring the problem of how to carry the burst wheel and tyre (often coated in mud and organic material) in the car along with the luggage when driving to a tyre depot to hopefully buy a replacement tyre.

For me it's easy ..

On the "Normal" 4x4 the spare is on a wheel carrier the back well away from the luggage and easy to get at in snow/ice or any other situation - how some off-road manufacturers can think that underneath the car in the stuff you have just broken down in is sensible (and that includes most of the new ones) bemuses me.

On the Land Rover Ambulance both of the spares (when we go away from the UK) are on the roof

I quite agree with the comments about how this is an improvement. I'll doubt I will ever buy a car with a space saver wheel and definitely not one with just a can of spray, but so many people do that it's a cost reduction that they can get away with and advertise "more luggage space" so the manufacturers win both ways

Harold Gough
21st February 2016, 04:13 PM
When in Iceland, in a hired 4x4, we were heading down a track to a local scenic waterfall. I must have just clipped one of the many up-to-football-size rocks on the track and the front offside tyre deflated.

No problem finding the tools or the spare wheel on the back door. Easy, too, to insert my finger in a huge hole (no flap) in that spare, fully visible without handling it.

By then, it was raining and getting dark...

Harold

Petrochemist
21st February 2016, 09:41 PM
I found a few of my own:



On that last one, the actual regulation itself extends to 11 pages of double column A4 and is published in 22 languages. You can read the entire nonsense here if you've got the inclination:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2013.192.01.0024.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2013:192:TOC

I don't want to even think how much that regulation cost or how many nurses the cash may have bought instead.

While the first one doesn't make a great deal of sense, the bulk of the remainder clear relate to it being fit to work. Standards are an everyday part of modern life. Surely you wouldn't want to buy a hoover to find the hose breaks after a couple of years light use, of that hardly picks of anything...

pdk42
21st February 2016, 09:47 PM
While the first one doesn't make a great deal of sense, the bulk of the remainder clear relate to it being fit to work. Standards are an everyday part of modern life. Surely you wouldn't want to buy a hoover to find the hose breaks after a couple of years light use, of that hardly picks of anything...

Yes, I agree with some of what they say - but they're using regulation to force manufacturers to build products that consumers may not want (i.e. that are limited to maximum power consumption). That's against personal freedom as well as building cost into manufacturing that probably make the companies involved less competitive on the world stage. It's better in the long run if the market decides these sort of product characteristics. Products whose hoses break too easily quickly find themselves being outsold by better makes.

And in fact, you'll see that in order to define the standard well enough, they're having to bring arbitrary definitions into play, probably because of some pressure groups - so for instance vacuum cleaners are included but not wet or wet and dry cleaners or floor polishers. I can see some very simple ways to get around such things. That's the trouble with bureaucratic regulation - it takes enormous effort to define it and then something comes along that makes it all pointless.

DerekW
22nd February 2016, 10:02 AM
Political dogma is being pursued via the EU standards.
RE the vacuum cleaner issue, what is to stop them reducing the maximum power consumption to 50w so requiring more manual effort (and the manual effort will be supplied by the poor or immigrants from a very poor country that sponsored the change in the regulations).

Naughty Nigel
23rd February 2016, 09:52 AM
For me it's easy ..

On the "Normal" 4x4 the spare is on a wheel carrier the back well away from the luggage and easy to get at in snow/ice or any other situation - how some off-road manufacturers can think that underneath the car in the stuff you have just broken down in is sensible (and that includes most of the new ones) bemuses me.

On the Land Rover Ambulance both of the spares (when we go away from the UK) are on the roof

I quite agree with the comments about how this is an improvement. I'll doubt I will ever buy a car with a space saver wheel and definitely not one with just a can of spray, but so many people do that it's a cost reduction that they can get away with and advertise "more luggage space" so the manufacturers win both ways

Utility 4x4's (rather than the 'designer' type) are a special case, and I would hope will continue to be provided with a full sized spare for the foreseeable future.

However, on most road cars the spare is rarely if ever needed, (touch wood). Apart for the weight and size considerations there are also the safety implications of jacking up a car and changing a wheel beside the motorway; that is assuming that you can get the wheel nuts undone with the supplied wheel nut wrench!

Whatever the manufacturers may want us to believe, (and whatever the selling price of the vehicle) cost is uppermost in their minds. But there is also the matter of weight, fuel consumption and emissions; which we are taxed on!

When I bought my current car (also a JLR product) a Space Saver spare and jack was an optional extra at 250. I declined, thinking I would use the Space Saver from my previous JLR car.

However, one option I did choose was the Premium Sound system. So when I went to put my spare wheel in the boot I found that the space was filled with a huge sub-woofer! :eek:

So, it looks as if I will have to live with the supplied tyre pump and puncture sealant, unless I have a puncture near home. That wouldn't be so bad except that the sealant makes a vulcanised puncture repair impossible, so a new tyre must be fitted. To make matters worse, I am told that the puncture sealant also writes off the pressure monitoring tyre valves, so these too must be replaced at about 50 a throw! :eek:

DerekW
23rd February 2016, 09:56 AM
The sealant often has only a 1 year shelf (boot or trunk) life so yet another expense to compensate for the saving in fuel by carrying less weight in the vehicle.

Harold Gough
23rd February 2016, 10:21 AM
So, it looks as if I will have to live with the supplied tyre pump and puncture sealant, unless I have a puncture near home. That wouldn't be so bad except that the sealant makes a vulcanised puncture repair impossible, so a new tyre must be fitted. To make matters worse, I am told that the puncture sealant also writes off the pressure monitoring tyre valves, so these too must be replaced at about 50 a throw! :eek:

I hadn't come across these issues before. Well worth knowing.

Harold

Harold Gough
23rd February 2016, 10:28 AM
What now bothers me is that, with four months to go before the referendum, the EC have time to issue a directive as to how we are allowed to vote.

Harold

Naughty Nigel
23rd February 2016, 11:37 AM
The sealant often has only a 1 year shelf (boot or trunk) life so yet another expense to compensate for the saving in fuel by carrying less weight in the vehicle.

.... and I very much doubt will be included in the price of an annual service. :(

Olybirder
23rd February 2016, 12:07 PM
When my other half bought her new Mini she had runflat tyres fitted. She was out last year when the tyre monitoring light came on. After consulting the handbook to find out what it signified she turned it off and drove home in the normal way. When she got home I looked at the tyres and they all appeared to be fine. However, when I checked the pressures I couldn't get a reading at all from one of them. She has an insurance policy for the tyres so she had to drive (slowly) to the Mini centre to have a new tyre fitted. Hopefully, if the light comes on again she will drive home carefully and not at 70 mph!

In some ways runflats are a good solution for a woman out on her own but they present their own problems. It is still probably better than waiting by the roadside for help (me or Mini Assist) to arrive. When I bought my car I had a full size steel spare wheel fitted as I just don't trust the cans of sealant and inflator.

Ron

pdk42
23rd February 2016, 01:31 PM
Well, this thread has bifurcated into two really - one on cars and tyres and the other on EU regulations! On the tyres front, I'll just add this...

I'm a long-time BMW driver and was dismayed when they decided to go run-flat on their cars some years ago. I avoided replacing my car for as long as possible (I get a car allowance from my employer so I need to run a relatively new car - less than 5 years old) but eventually I was confronted with either living with run-flats or changing brands. The motoring cognoscenti had heavily dissed run-flats for poor ride, poor grip, poor everything really so I was quite torn. Eventually though I went with run-flats and they were indeed poor for ride and grip. At the first opportunity I replaced them with regular tyres and a can of tyre-weld. Thankfully I never had to use it.

More recently I had to change car again and I'd heard that run-flats had improved so I went that route a second time and I must say the latest run-flat technology is significantly improved. I can definitely see the safety sense in having them - changing wheels at night can be a perilous operation and rapid tyre failure at speed can be challenging to control. It's not a panacea since there are events that a run-flat won't help you with (bent rim etc), but that's a pretty rare event. II have recovery service cover so that's the ultimate fall-back.

On balance I'm now fairly positive about run-flats. Looking at my wife's 7 year old Golf, the spare tyre in the boot is still shiny and unused which I think is representative of the likelihood of having to use it.

Naughty Nigel
23rd February 2016, 03:54 PM
Looking at my wife's 7 year old Golf, the spare tyre in the boot is still shiny and unused which I think is representative of the likelihood of having to use it.

Our son drives a 17 year-old (S Reg.) Astra that was my wife's, and my mother's before that! It has covered 93,000 miles.

That has full sized spare in the boot (albeit on a steel wheel), which has only been driven on for about 300 yards (from car park to garage) in the entire life of the car!

Thankfully, as it lacks all of the computer gizmo of the latest cars we can enjoy keeping it going ourselves. :)

Other than that I cannot think of any other time that we have needed to use a spare wheel over the past twenty years or so.

Strictly speaking the spare should be thrown away after about ten years, even if not used, as the rubber becomes harder and loses grip.

On the other hand, the puncture sealant stuff is only suitable for small punctures, and as we have already said the punctured tyre cannot be repaired, and pressure monitoring valves must be replaced once it is used.

Naughty Nigel
23rd February 2016, 03:58 PM
Well, this thread has bifurcated into two really - one on cars and tyres and the other on EU regulations!

We also seem to have forgotten that the Hasselblad XPan was panned because of EU legislation, as the Eurocrats were concerned about lead solder from ditched Hasselblads contaminating landfill sites! :rolleyes:

That, if nothing else proves how out of touch these people are. :(

AMc
23rd February 2016, 04:28 PM
My 2p...

I understand the regulations on vacuum cleaners - they were being sold on wattage - like old fashioned light bulbs - with the bigger=better marketing.
You want a vacuum cleaner to suck efficiently not heat the room, if the industry doesn't behave responsibly then a gentle prod from regulation is sensible.
Emissions regulations have helped us to get more economical and cleaner vehicles, without the industry wouldn't have produced the fast, efficient cars we have now.

We had runflats on our Minis and no spare wheel (though amusingly a jack and brace). We had a puncture for the first time in a decade of use as per another poster the driver drove home at speed without heeding the red warning light so the tyre was deemed unrepairable.
I've since discovered that run flats can be repaired but you'd be a fool to do so after running at speed on a fully deflated tyre as it's been running on the reinforced sidewall.

Recently the car needed two new tyres I jumped through a lot of hoops to get non run flats fitted - the fitters tried to get me to fit a full set, not just fronts, insisted I speak to the insurance company and the suppliers had an opinion too. In the end after signing a disclaimer they did as I wanted and the ride is transformed. The EU were not involved, this was an industry trying to squeeze the customer through fearmongering.

I have a can of tyre weld in the boot, it clearly states it can be washed out of the tyre with plain water and the tyre repaired as long as you follow the instructions. It costs 8 for a 18" wheel. I'm sure I've wasted more than that in petrol dragging spare wheels around.
https://www.holtsauto.com/holts/products/tyreweld/

I've dragged spare wheels around in most of our cars for the last 25 years and needed them once in all that time. The Minis don't have a space for a spare and the space saver in the Golf has never been out of the well in the last 8 years - I wish I had the boot space instead.

Harold Gough
23rd February 2016, 04:40 PM
Strictly speaking the spare should be thrown away after about ten years, even if not used, as the rubber becomes harder and loses grip.

So, there is some else out there who considers a ten-year-old car as "new" and to be driven until repair becomes uneconomic.*chr

Harold

DerekW
23rd February 2016, 05:27 PM
The last puncture I had was at 70mph leaving Dover on the hill going west leading to the M20. The rear right tyre went flat. Ride became very bumpy. Pulled over from the RH line into a layby. Huge gash in the tyre wall.

Recovery man and vehicle arrived and used proper jacks to lift up the car and swapped in the toy spare wheel and then drove at 50mph to Folkestone where Quickfit were able to fit a compatible tyre at not too bad a price. After the tyre had been removed from the wheel, a block of metal about 2 inches by 6 inches by a quarter of inch was found.

No gunge from a tube would have fixed that tyre, it would require a full vehicle recovery to the tyre shop to get a new tyre fitted.

drmarkf
23rd February 2016, 10:34 PM
Well, this thread has bifurcated into two really - one on cars and tyres and the other on EU regulations! On the tyres front, I'll just add this...

I'm a long-time BMW driver and was dismayed when they decided to go run-flat on their cars some years ago. I avoided replacing my car for as long as possible (I get a car allowance from my employer so I need to run a relatively new car - less than 5 years old) but eventually I was confronted with either living with run-flats or changing brands. The motoring cognoscenti had heavily dissed run-flats for poor ride, poor grip, poor everything really so I was quite torn. Eventually though I went with run-flats and they were indeed poor for ride and grip. At the first opportunity I replaced them with regular tyres and a can of tyre-weld. Thankfully I never had to use it.

More recently I had to change car again and I'd heard that run-flats had improved so I went that route a second time and I must say the latest run-flat technology is significantly improved. I can definitely see the safety sense in having them - changing wheels at night can be a perilous operation and rapid tyre failure at speed can be challenging to control. It's not a panacea since there are events that a run-flat won't help you with (bent rim etc), but that's a pretty rare event. II have recovery service cover so that's the ultimate fall-back.

On balance I'm now fairly positive about run-flats. Looking at my wife's 7 year old Golf, the spare tyre in the boot is still shiny and unused which I think is representative of the likelihood of having to use it.

Hi Paul.

I've got a 330d M-sport with the usual naff, and worn, Bridgestone 050 run flats. It's got the winter wheels/tyres on at the moment, but when it's time to put the summer set back on I was thinking of getting a set of Bridgestone S001, which are the new 3rd gen RFT. Are these the ones you mean?