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View Full Version : It's those job-gabbing migrants again!


Zuiko
18th February 2016, 11:21 AM
Headline on front page of The Daily Express:-

2M EU Migrants Grab Our Jobs

But hang on, don't the latest figures show that unemployment is only 1.7 million? Now I'm not a mathematician, but it seems to me that without the migrant workers we would be pretty much stuffed. Okay, many of them are in low pay jobs, which entitles them to certain in-work benefits that Mr Cameron is keen to deny them, but those benefits would still have to be paid if British workers were doing the jobs and the figures suggest that there wouldn't be enough of them anyway. In fact, I wonder how many of the 1.7 million are disabled or chronically sick with no real prospect of finding work, but have been forced into registering as job seekers by the Government's policy of bullying and intimidating genuine benefits claimants?

Funny how the Government are keen to perpetuate a myth that is the product of the popular press, to the extent of making it a corner stone of the renegotiations of our EU membership. Could it be a convenient way to deflect from their failing economic policies and reluctance to address the ever-widening gulf between the top 1% and the other 99% of our population?

drmarkf
18th February 2016, 12:56 PM
Right on.

Although, in my humble opinion it's the gap between the top 0.25% and the rest of us that we really need to get heated about.

crimbo
18th February 2016, 01:38 PM
Forget the top 1%, they will always be there....in their own little world.
We need to find a way to get reasonable equity amongst the 99% of us.

As for migrants - I have no problem. Do you think the NHS would be working if we didn't have migrants working alongside us?

Do you think other countries health services would be working if all (quite a big number ish) of our doctors had not gone to work overseas?

Migrants who want to work is good.

But don't let facts get in the way of politics

Ralph Harwood
18th February 2016, 02:32 PM
Does that 1.7 million jobless include all those people who are stuck with zero hour contracts and no stable income - I think not! There are more people without a full time guarenteed wage than there have ever been. Yet more Tory lies.

And yes, as a country we would be stuffed without the migrant work force underpinning our health service and many other industries.

Rant over ;-)

Cheers,

Ralph.

Wally
18th February 2016, 03:48 PM
I'm all for adding MP's and others, such as those senior exec's in those banks bailed out and financed by the public, to the zero hour contracts with no stable income. Prior to this, I would grant the 'existing zero club members a decent living wage.' Financing this should be easy... use the monies saved from MP's expences, second homes mortgages, food allowances, cheap booze and the 2nd job that gets in the way of the day job etc., OH! and lest we forget... all those multi-million bonuses etc.

Naughty Nigel
18th February 2016, 03:54 PM
From what gather there are several problems here.

Firstly, far too many Brits simply refuse to do the jobs that EU Migrants come here for, irrespective of pay.

I am thinking particularly of farm labourers, but there are many other jobs that 'we' simply will not do any more.

(When I was a lad at school we used to have a week's holiday for tatty picking, such was the importance of this job in the rural community. I daresay most youngsters nowadays think tatties come from Tesco!)

John may well be right that many of the 1.7 million 'unemployed' are disabled or unable to work for good reason;but many more could work if they willing and able to find the right job near to where they live.

Secondly, we are giving tax credits to migrant workers so they can be employed (exploited?) on the minimum wage, or even less, working in the fields to make profits for food producers and supermarkets.

As I understand it, these same workers are able to claim child benefits for children not living in the UK.

The end result is that tax credits and child benefit, paid for by British taxpayers, are being sent abroad, and crucially, are not being spent on the British high street or on British products and services.

Some may argue that benefits help to stimulate the economy by encouraging spending, but this can only work if that money is actually spent within the UK.

Imageryone
18th February 2016, 05:21 PM
The true figure for unemployment is much nearer 6.5 million if you include the 25-60 age group who are now classified as in " Full time Education " Another little massage to the real figures.

The old saying is very true:-
Lies!
Damned Lies!
Statistics!

Zuiko
18th February 2016, 06:18 PM
As I understand it, these same workers are able to claim child benefits for children not living in the UK.

The end result is that tax credits and child benefit, paid for by British taxpayers, are being sent abroad, and crucially, are not being spent on the British high street or on British products and services.

Some may argue that benefits help to stimulate the economy by encouraging spending, but this can only work if that money is actually spent within the UK.

These are good points.

pandora
18th February 2016, 07:06 PM
Government and governing is all about the orchestration of fear to divert us from dragging our pollies to the guillotine.

Loup Garou
18th February 2016, 07:25 PM
Firstly, far too many Brits simply refuse to do the jobs that EU Migrants come here for, irrespective of pay.

I am thinking particularly of farm labourers, but there are many other jobs that 'we' simply will not do any more.

. Correct, but looking back over the past decades - even as far as the Colonial days, this is bit of a chicken and egg situation. The reason why a lot of British workers no longer want to do anymore is because they subconsciously perceive such jobs as suitable for only migrants. If migrants had not arrived steadily over time, that feeling would never have arisen in the first place.

Trying to cover job vacancies by whoever is willing to do it might work in the short term or even middle term, but it is never going to be a long term answer. No matter how you look at it, the wheel will turn around and come back, bringing with it a whole new set of problems.

As the moment there may be tens of thousands of migrants willing to take on any job as long as they can sink roots in the West but in time they (or more likely their descendants) will not want to do "those jobs" and we are back to square one....of a sort.

Incidentally, I am a "migrant" myself.

Zuiko
18th February 2016, 07:40 PM
The true figure for unemployment is much nearer 6.5 million if you include the 25-60 age group who are now classified as in " Full time Education " Another little massage to the real figures.

The old saying is very true:-
Lies!
Damned Lies!
Statistics!

Yes, the official figures are open to question, but I was struck by the paradox created by the unemployment and migrant statistics that I had seen reported within the last 24 hours.

I know for certain that the unemployment figures are wrong in at least one case - me! I can't work, even though I'm of working age and really need to work, but I'm not allowed to claim JSA or ESA, therefore I'm not counted in any statistics.

Wally
18th February 2016, 08:52 PM
With regard to the ^ post by John. The BIG question is...

Of late, I have wondered at the mentality of some of those tasked with ascertaing if one is disabled.

If proof be needed, I read today that a double amputee was requested to prove he was disabled. The fact he was in a wheelchair and his legs stopped at the knee was apparently overlooked. As for the bus driver, if his / her eyesight is so bad what the big F are they doing driving a bus? Although this tale goes back several years, more reently there has been cases of severely handicapped people having had their disability called into question. Some have had their disability rejected with loss of transport and, in one case this month, a judgement was overturned in the courts with regards to the bedroom tax.

Why can't people like John, where possible, be given the task to sit in judgement such as those mentioned above?

Naughty Nigel
18th February 2016, 09:25 PM
Having read the posts above it also occurs to me that we tend to have different views about 'migrants' depending on the jobs that they do.

I think almost everyone in the country accepts that the NHS would collapse if 'migrants' were sent back to their own countries, but we have different views about farm labourers and construction workers.

I cannot really comment on the NHS as (thankfully) I don't know enough about it, but I think it would be fair to say that 'migrants' occupy positions from cleaners to consultants, and everything in between.

Throughout history I don't think farm labourers have ever been well paid in this country, although the lifestyle suited some people. However, comparative pay and conditions have almost certainly become worse in recent years with the increasing use of migrant labour, driven by the profit motives of big supermarkets and multi-national food processors.

This has led to the "top 1%" that we keep hearing about, who run the supermarkets, and the bankers who look after their money!

This in turn is largely driven by OUR demands for cheap food, but I cannot help but feel that profits should be more fairly distributed throughout the food production system.

At one point (before their spectacular fall from grace), Tesco owned five executive jets, paid for in part by tax credits to migrant farm labourers, and dairy farmers who earned so little from milk that they were better off pouring it down the drain. :mad:

Maybe if our supermarket chains were smaller and less powerful? *???

Just one further thought on the subject of farm labourers; I mentioned before having a week off from school for tatty picking. I also remember my mother talking about going to Kent for two weeks of hop picking during the summer holidays. From what I recall they used to sleep in barns, farm buildings or wherever they could.

For many youngsters living in London this was a great holiday in the fresh air and a taste of independence all rolled into one, with an opportunity to earn a few pounds at the same time. When did this stop I wonder?

Youngsters today probably couldn't do work like this owing to health and safety, child protection rules and the risk of Hay Fever! *yes

DerekW
18th February 2016, 11:13 PM
I think the hop picking stays ended when hops started to be imported and also the Londoners were moved to the "New Towns" eg Harlow, Stevenage, Basingstoke and the associated industrial estates providing year round work.

However I may be wrong - often am.

Imageryone
18th February 2016, 11:32 PM
I remember fruit picking for Chivers Jams during the long summer holidays, it was a way of earning some money. Whole families moved with the crop all over East Anglia and then down to Kent. For some it was their yearly income.

PeterBirder
18th February 2016, 11:36 PM
Nigel.

You have fallen into the trap of believing what you read in the press (plus a little "rose tinted spectacles" view of the past) particularly in respect of agriculture.

Agriculture in the UK accounts for only about 1% of total employment compared to 19% for Industry and 80% for "Services" (thanks to M. Thatcher et. al.). UK agriculture is highly mechanised and actually needs very few people.

The latest figures I found are in "Agriculture in The United Kingdom 2012" page 8 from DEFRA. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208436/auk-2012-25jun13.pdf

This shows a grand total of people employed of just 481,000!

298,000 of these are "Farmers, Partners, Directors and Spouses of which 158,000 are "part time".

There are just 11,000 "Salaried Managers".

"Other Workers" total 172,000 of whom 65,000 are "full time", 41,000 "part time". There are 67,000 "seasonal,casual and gang labour" and the "European Migrants" in agriculture are probably in the last category which is totaly irrelevant to overall UK employment .

Regards.*chr

pdk42
18th February 2016, 11:38 PM
Our economic system is overall pretty badly screwed. I'm here in the US at the moment and all the talk is of the presidential primaries. Trump is just an **** and the rest aren't much better - apart from Bernie Sanders. He was pointing out that the family that owns Walmart has more wealth than the bottom 40℅ of the US population and yet, courtesy of the welfare handouts that their underpaid staff receive, the family is actually the biggest indirect receiver of state aid. Crazy!

Ross the fiddler
19th February 2016, 02:26 AM
Downunder, we are having problems getting enough backpackers to come & pick fruit as it is not possible to get (enough) local labour to do the work. The fruit growers have pretty much relied on them coming for the picking season. I can't remember if it was just a trend or political now.

George Dorn
19th February 2016, 08:42 AM
Downunder, we are having problems getting enough backpackers to come & pick fruit as it is not possible to get (enough) local labour to do the work. The fruit growers have pretty much relied on them coming for the picking season. I can't remember if it was just a trend or political now.

Then what should happen is the cost of fruit should rise and enable the growers to pay an attractive wage. Unfortunately the market isn't that simple.

Naughty Nigel
19th February 2016, 08:46 AM
Downunder, we are having problems getting enough backpackers to come & pick fruit as it is not possible to get (enough) local labour to do the work. The fruit growers have pretty much relied on them coming for the picking season. I can't remember if it was just a trend or political now.

Is this because it is impossible for migrants to enter Australia to do this work?

Are there enough Australians to do the work or will they not do it (as happens here)?

Naughty Nigel
19th February 2016, 08:48 AM
Our economic system is overall pretty badly screwed. I'm here in the US at the moment and all the talk is of the presidential primaries. Trump is just an **** and the rest aren't much better - apart from Bernie Sanders. He was pointing out that the family that owns Walmart has more wealth than the bottom 40℅ of the US population and yet, courtesy of the welfare handouts that their underpaid staff receive, the family is actually the biggest indirect receiver of state aid. Crazy!

So not too dissimilar to Tesco here in the UK, (and presumably Asda, owned by Walmart)? :(

Naughty Nigel
19th February 2016, 09:05 AM
I wonder how many of the 1.7 million are disabled or chronically sick with no real prospect of finding work......

Given my wife's recent experience I suspect many more people would find work were it not for employment agencies, who seem to operate and exist entirely for their own benefit, with no regard whatsoever for the needs and aspirations of job applicants.

Indeed, the situation seems to have become so bad that I strongly suspect that the downturn in house sales led to Estate Agents trying their hands at employment agency work. Or perhaps they were used car salesmen, or double glazing reps, or timeshare salesmen? Lying shysters. :mad:

Zuiko
19th February 2016, 09:13 AM
Given my wife's recent experience I suspect many more people would find work were it not for employment agencies, who seem to operate and exist entirely for their own benefit, with no regard whatsoever for the needs and aspirations of job applicants.

Indeed, the situation seems to have become so bad that I strongly suspect that the downturn in house sales led to Estate Agents trying their hands at employment agency work. Or perhaps they were used car salesmen, or double glazing reps, or timeshare salesmen? Lying shysters. :mad:

That's the last thing we need; greed-driven, profit-motivated agencies taking over the labour market purely for their own agenda. Why doesn't that surprise me, given the structure of our economy? :mad:

Naughty Nigel
19th February 2016, 09:46 AM
That's the last thing we need; greed-driven, profit-motivated agencies taking over the labour market purely for their own agenda. Why doesn't that surprise me, given the structure of our economy? :mad:

Thankfully I have never needed to use agencies (either as an employee or employer), but the carry-on that my wife has experienced has really shocked me.

Unfortunately it seems that most small to medium sized companies now use employment agencies to recruit staff.

The whole process is driven by 'tick box' database systems where relevant information must be entered into fields before you can proceed to the next stage.

What at first seems like a simple job application becomes incredibly complex, requiring user names, passwords, contact details and so forth to be entered over and over again, and then verified by confirming email links and so forth. The carefully structured CV that you have spent hours putting together is simply pulled apart, with key data used to create yet more form fields.

Having gone through this painful procedure to apply for a job in Gateshead, the applicant receives a phone summoning them to a an interview with the agency in their plush (rented) offices, where they have to provide copies of Passport, Driving Licence, examination certifies and so forth. Only then does the Polish interviewer they tell the applicant (in poor English) that the job is not in Gateshead, but is actually in Gosforth, on the other side of the river, and another forty minutes in traffic each way. :mad:

(Apparently this is to stop job applicants bypassing agencies.)

Having entrusted the agency with personal information they then call to ask for the same information again as (I quote) "we did scan some of the documents when you came in to the office, however they have not been filed. Could you please provide us with them again?"

On other occasions it has transpired that the job doesn't actually exist, or was taken some time ago, but the details are left on their website to recruit potential job applicants so they can spam their mailboxes.

And, rather like Estate Agents, when an applicant applies for a particular post they can be sure to receive at least three phone calls from other agencies offering the same job.

Frankly the whole system has become a nightmare, and is so intimidating that I have no doubt it will have put some people off of applying for jobs altogether. And that is only those who have a good education and are reasonably computer literate.

If you don't have a computer or a degree then forget it. :mad: