PDA

View Full Version : An unhelpful comment?


Zuiko
9th September 2015, 04:12 PM
My daughter has recently started an A Level Photography course in 6th Form and predictably she is the only pupil who uses an Olympus camera. Most use a Canon of one sort or another and the teacher told the class that Canon are the best brand, followed by Nikon. Really? *shrug

pvasc
9th September 2015, 04:31 PM
No a bit backwards I think. Nikon is the best....Canon never sent a camera to space. The best brand is the one that works for you! I could have been going down the Nikon route quite easily, but the E510 just felt better to hold, and the 2x crop factor sealed the deal. It's been Olympus all the way, no regrets.

Walti
9th September 2015, 04:34 PM
Obviously never heard of Hasselblad? :-)

Wally
9th September 2015, 04:35 PM
Comments such as that, especially from a member of the teaching staff are worse than pathetic. Words, just words. A camera is a camera, is a camera... just a tool to be used. It's the individual behind the tool that determines what the end result will be. Sounds like the teacher could be the proverbial tool behind the tool?

Let her finished items do the talking.

Then when she wipes the board at the end of term / course, she can always comment... "What a great pity I didn't have a C***n or a N***n, I could have done sooooo much better." :rolleyes: ;)

Revenge is a dish best served up cold. *yes

OlyPaul
9th September 2015, 05:26 PM
What a tool, he is supposed to be teaching photography not his camera brand preference!

Theres a saying those that can do those that can't teach.

I know a few that do and teach.

He sounds like he is in the first group, I'd love to se his fantastic Canon master pieces John.:rolleyes:

Mrs T
9th September 2015, 05:34 PM
So the teacher has an open mind and should be able to help broaden the minds of their students?! What nonsense, sounds like something you'd hear in a camera shop before they were rescued by a dragon.

Graham_of_Rainham
9th September 2015, 05:43 PM
The Olympus E-3 went into space:
http://www.photographyblog.com/news/olympus_e-3_launches_into_space/

Working in an FE college, I've also heard this tripe and other such nonsense.

The Mechanics argue over the merits of Snap on tools over Gedore or Elora.

The chippies debate DeWalt vs JCB vs Stanley

Everyone knows the best omelets are cooked in le creuset pans... :rolleyes:

Jim Ford
9th September 2015, 05:49 PM
Makes you wonder what she's going to learn from someone that makes such a stupid remark!

Jim

pvasc
9th September 2015, 06:30 PM
The Olympus E-3 went into space:
http://www.photographyblog.com/news/olympus_e-3_launches_into_space/

Working in an FE college, I've also heard this tripe and other such nonsense.

The Mechanics argue over the merits of Snap on tools over Gedore or Elora.

The chippies debate DeWalt vs JCB vs Stanley

Everyone knows the best omelets are cooked in le creuset pans... :rolleyes:

Learn something new everyday! I didn't know that. Really wouldn't have known about Nikon except fro a friend I served in the Air Force with, his dad worked at NASA developing the films from space.

pvasc
9th September 2015, 07:02 PM
This seems to happen quite a bit I think. I was in a secondhand shop, and in walked a family looking to move their daughter up from a bridge camera because she had started photography classes in school. They picked up a NICE secondhand Nikon....D100 I think. The class was photographing BIF from hides at the time. What did she really want or had been told was the set up? Canon 7D MkII with a 300 F2.8! I have no doubt this is the way to go....for some... for BIF. But dad wasn't going to fork out that kind of dosh for his starter child.

Not to stir the pot, but I have had very little trouble doing BIF with the M1, maybe I'm not looking for the same results as others on here, I don't know. My main trouble is getting and keeping the bird in the box 9 focus point area. I have also found it focuses better on distant objects using C-AF and back button focus rather than S-AF.

Sorry for going a bit off topic.

AJW
9th September 2015, 07:04 PM
I work in a school where photography students regularly use their iphones to complete their homework tasks. No problem as far as the teaching staff are concerned, its just another tool, but getting the images onto the system so they can work on them is another story and I don't want to open that can of worms!


Andy

Zuiko
9th September 2015, 08:02 PM
I'm not too worried; it was probably just an off the cuff remark but potentially it could have undermined my daughter's confidence in her camera. Luckily she does not seem at all gear orientated so no harm done. On the plus side the school has excellent facilities and they set quite a demanding project to be completed during the school holidays, before the course had even started! On the downside, I've just had to shell out 150.00 towards the cost of digital printing and darkroom consumables that she is likely to use on the course. In the end, I'm just grateful that she has the opportunity to do this.

Jim Ford
9th September 2015, 08:34 PM
I remember someone posting somewhere that a friend of theirs who worked at Zeiss said 'Canon lenses - meh! Nikon lenses - meh! Olympus lenses - hmm!

It's a bit cryptic, but I guess it means that the Zeiss person thought that Canon and Nikon lenses didn't compare with Zeiss ones, but that Olympus ones probably did.

Regardless, Canon have produced some notoriously dreadful consumer 'coke bottle bottom' lenses!

Jim

shenstone
9th September 2015, 08:36 PM
Unfortunately reminds me of a course I did once

The 1st week the teacher (who owned a local gallery) said you really had to have a proper camera and to him that meant N***on

Then he realises he's left his keys to the office and needs to borrow a camera so lent him the E30 +14-54 moving "down" to my spare E520+50mm prime and lending another student who brought a pocket P&S my E500 +14-42

He's impressed by the end of the session with his results and mine

Next week he starts with "I've got my proper camera this week" and then wanders off leaving most people to struggle and I end up "teaching" 1/2 the students how to change the settings on their cameras

Third week after he says he does not need to see any more of my work until the end of the course as I seem to understand what I'm doing.

I walked out mid session, what was I going to learn??

The problem IMO is not kit fetishists, it's people who don't know how to inspire, lead and teach and I refuse to waste my time on any of that sort of person and they should be weeded out from any form of education

I hope your daughter finds some inspiration from this person somewhere

Regards
Andy

Invicta
9th September 2015, 08:40 PM
My daughter has recently started an A Level Photography course in 6th Form and predictably she is the only pupil who uses an Olympus camera. Most use a Canon of one sort or another and the teacher told the class that Canon are the best brand, followed by Nikon. Really? *shrug

Shocking, surely they should be teaching that the best cameras are those with a red dot on them. :p

Olybirder
9th September 2015, 08:54 PM
I would imagine that the teacher has never looked at an Olympus camera before and wouldn't know how to use one. It is so much less work if everyone is using the same make. Anything for an easy life.

Ron

Zuiko
9th September 2015, 09:34 PM
I remember someone posting somewhere that a friend of theirs who worked at Zeiss said 'Canon lenses - meh! Nikon lenses - meh! Olympus lenses - hmm!

It's a bit cryptic, but I guess it means that the Zeiss person thought that Canon and Nikon lenses didn't compare with Zeiss ones, but that Olympus ones probably did.

Regardless, Canon have produced some notoriously dreadful consumer 'coke bottle bottom' lenses!

Jim

A long time ago (pre digital) I had a friend who worked for Leica. I seem to recall him saying that Olympus lenses were considered to be the closest competition for overall optical quality.

Naughty Nigel
9th September 2015, 10:04 PM
................. the teacher told the class that Canon are the best brand, followed by Nikon. Really? *shrug

He probably thinks BMW make the best cars followed by Mercedes, Dyson the best vacuum cleaners and Bose the best HiFi and so on. *erm

I would think it's more likely that the teacher has a Canon himself and knows how to use Canon, so it would be expecting too much to help a student use any other type of camera. :(

He may be a very good teacher, but far too many seem to teach from textbooks these days, and are completely out of their depth when faced with a question from the real world.

David M
9th September 2015, 10:12 PM
Those that can, do. Those that can't teach.

Naughty Nigel
9th September 2015, 10:19 PM
The more news articles I read concerning schools and teachers, the less confidence I have in the profession.

Don't get me started. :mad:

Our daughter has just changed sixth form college because of her poor Chemistry and Biology results, and is having to retake both subjects. She was not alone: the best scoring pupil only gained a C is AS Biology, and most were awarded a resounding 'U'.

We took this matter up with the college Principle, who concedes 'there is a problem', but insists "there are procedures that we have to follow", and "we cannot just replace staff".

So, at least twenty students have wasted a year of their lives being taught by incompetent teachers, but those teachers' welfare is more important than the student's education. :mad:

As long as teachers are held to be more important than their students, and are protected by powerful unions and inappropriate employment legislation this situation will prevail. :mad:

al_kaholik
9th September 2015, 10:57 PM
I'm not too worried; it was probably just an off the cuff remark but potentially it could have undermined my daughter's confidence in her camera. Luckily she does not seem at all gear orientated so no harm done. On the plus side the school has excellent facilities and they set quite a demanding project to be completed during the school holidays, before the course had even started! On the downside, I've just had to shell out 150.00 towards the cost of digital printing and darkroom consumables that she is likely to use on the course. In the end, I'm just grateful that she has the opportunity to do this.

The best tool is often that behind the equipment. Example; I drive a car designed rigorously, though not by any description fast or sporty... I am unable to find that limit and will give up soon before the car does. EM10 vs. the A_K. EM10 will win in 99% of the situations because I cannot exploit the potential available. Lesson to A_K - upgrade to EM10 mk10^1000 when it arrives. E600>EM10 happened for camera capability in low light not because it made me a better photographer.

Those that can, do. Those that can't teach.

Contrarily in my experience, often they inspired, led, enthused and interested. Einstein could and taught, Pythagoras the same. Galen, Smith, Grylls all taught (or teach) in different ways.

Teaching in schools is tough, I'm sure no doubt even worse since I finished secondary education. It is not for me, I struggle with explaining the basics to people of what I know!

al_kaholik
9th September 2015, 11:01 PM
Also John we've seen Freya's product, she has no problem getting the shot :)

David Morison
10th September 2015, 06:38 AM
I've used Olympus, Canon, Panasonic, Fuji, Leica, Voigtlander, Minox , Yashica , Ricoh and Rollei and the best camera IMO is my iPhone - because it's always with me!

David

Jim Ford
10th September 2015, 07:40 AM
Teaching in schools is tough, I'm sure no doubt even worse since I finished secondary education.

I used to be of the 'those that can, do ...' persuasion, but after working for 35 years in a factory I got a job as a science technician in a secondary school. I always found it shocking how drained all the teaching staff looked as half-term or end of term approached.

Jim

drmarkf
10th September 2015, 08:27 AM
My daughter has recently started an A Level Photography course in 6th Form and predictably she is the only pupil who uses an Olympus camera. Most use a Canon of one sort or another and the teacher told the class that Canon are the best brand, followed by Nikon. Really? *shrug

That's a shame, isn't it. Saying something like that is not just an example of what I call gearism, but it also demonstrates basic modern photographic ignorance on the part of the teacher.

Being a bit gearist can be a bit of fun (we all like new shiny kit, many photographers are in to the technical details of their craft, most of us like to belong to a tribe, manufacturers encourage it because it's how they build market share and GAS) but it's a fundamental photographic skill these days that a good photographer needs to know they can take good photographs with any modern camera.

They also need to know that some gear is a bit better for some photographic applications than others, and that no one manufacturer makes the best kit for all purposes.

It seems to me your daughter has been let down over this, but I'm sure Dad has put her right!

Another factor may well be that Jonny Teacher finds the Olympus menu system a bit challenging at times if he needs to show a pupil how to change a setting or two, and we might have some sympathy with him over that...

Probably a good idea for your daughter to have a pdf of the manual on her phone so they can both refer to it!

Naughty Nigel
10th September 2015, 09:25 AM
I used to be of the 'those that can, do ...' persuasion, but after working for 35 years in a factory I got a job as a science technician in a secondary school. I always found it shocking how drained all the teaching staff looked as half-term or end of term approached.

Jim

Teaching is not easy, but then any teacher will have known that when they signed up for the job. Teaching is also well rewarded and secure by most standards, with a good pension to look forward to in retirement.

However, I do sometimes wonder whether the teaching unions do their members any favours by constantly banging on about what a bad deal teachers have, how stressful their work is, how badly paid they are and so forth? Surely that must be demotivating to any teacher?

My bother-in-law went into teaching following redundancy, and is now Head of Science at a large combined secondary school and sixth form college. For the first two or three years he was full of enthusiasm for the job, and I'm sure still enjoys it, but he sounds more like an NUT Congress meeting these days! :)

Beagletorque
10th September 2015, 09:41 AM
I think he was right. Nikon and canon are the best 'brands' not the best cameras! After all they probably spend more money on branding than Olympus spend on everything else. Like most things though the top brand means nothing more than that.

drmarkf
10th September 2015, 09:50 AM
(RANTMODE = ON]

I think you'll find the real origin of much sniping at teachers in the state sector is most of the UK press, who all relentlessly spin the same ideological line that our public services and all who work in them are lazy bureaucratic incompetents (with the back story that the solution is to replace them with a nice shiny private system so we can save 5p in the pound income tax).

It's hardly surprising that the good teachers (nurses, doctors, social workers...) get ground down by this over time and stick up two fingers as soon as they can.

What they and their political masters don't tell us is that it'll cost us all five pounds in the pound to replace them with a private system that 60% of the population won't be able to afford.

Just ask anyone who earns under the average wage in the USA, where for example the average citizen pays 3 times as much per annum for their healthcare as the average UK citizen. Think about that for a while.

Ultimately we all get the public services we deserve.

[RANTMODE = OFF]

There, I feel better now :)

OM USer
10th September 2015, 10:01 AM
Its should not be about the camera brand, but about the camera. The camera should have the necessary controls needed for the course easily accessable. Now it may be that canikon have more cameras that fall into this category and so there is a wider range to choose from (budget permitting) than when choosing from some other brands but it does not mean that the other brands do not have a cameras in their range that fulfill the requirement.

Maybe the teacher was just uncomfortable in teaching how to use a camera with ergonomics and menu systems that he/she was not familar with, but pointing this out whilst saying the choice of camera (given it had the necessary features that were going to be taught) was down to the individual would have been a beter way to go.

It remind me that schools nowdays recommend a very small range of calculators to enable them to easily teach a whole class of 30 pupils how to use them. In a A-Level photography class of probably no more than 10 people I would expect more personal tuition and the ability to cope with slight variations in the equipment to be used.

Naughty Nigel
10th September 2015, 11:25 AM
(RANTMODE = ON]

I think you'll find the real origin of much sniping at teachers in the state sector is most of the UK press, who all relentlessly spin the same ideological line that our public services and all who work in them are lazy bureaucratic incompetents (with the back story that the solution is to replace them with a nice shiny private system so we can save 5p in the pound income tax).

It's hardly surprising that the good teachers (nurses, doctors, social workers...) get ground down by this over time and stick up two fingers as soon as they can.

What they and their political masters don't tell us is that it'll cost us all five pounds in the pound to replace them with a private system that 60% of the population won't be able to afford.

Just ask anyone who earns under the average wage in the USA, where for example the average citizen pays 3 times as much per annum for their healthcare as the average UK citizen. Think about that for a while.

Ultimately we all get the public services we deserve.

[RANTMODE = OFF]

There, I feel better now :)

That is all very true.

But many inner city schools cost significantly more per head than sending a child to Eton.

Our own recent experience of the state system is the schools exist, first and foremost for the benefit of the teachers, and that the education of students is not a priority.

Ross the fiddler
10th September 2015, 11:34 AM
Those that can, do. Those that can't teach.

Don't blame all teachers, 'cause I'm married to one that is very hard working & dedicated, but some unfortunately bring down the name of the good ones because of their shortcomings.

This 'tool' of a teacher should know better & such biases are totally unprofessional. Unfortunately I also experienced a biased photography 'teacher' at a community school (in other words, he wasn't a qualified teacher) that had decided that Nikon was better than Canon & was in the middle of changing over (at least I think that was the direction he was going) & took one look at my Olympus camera (it was the E520 then, back in 2009) & said they had a lag time that needed to be allowed for. He also said we didn't need RAW files. Yeah right! :rolleyes: After a while I ignored him & continued to save both JPEG & RAW (& have continued to do so). He also insisted on calling macro lenses "micro" & so I corrected him saying that it was only Nikon's idea of a macro lens. :p Anyhow, I did learn a few things despite his bit of a bias, but that was 6 years ago & things have moved along from there now (with some).

Ross the fiddler
10th September 2015, 11:51 AM
I used to be of the 'those that can, do ...' persuasion, but after working for 35 years in a factory I got a job as a science technician in a secondary school. I always found it shocking how drained all the teaching staff looked as half-term or end of term approached.

Jim

You're so right there! Teaching can be like bashing your head against a brick wall with some of today's students when parents don't help with their attitude ("it's the school's fault for my slack, insolent & lazy child") & various competing distractions (internet related usually). To top it off, there are now more & more regulating systems, paper work (not necessarily paper, but you know what I mean) that goes with teaching etc. The legal risk of teaching is also stressful too. That's when having a union pays off if a student (or parents) decide there is some legal challenge they want to take take out against a teacher (it may be justified or the parent & student are just unreasonable losers) as they can legally represent the teacher.

OK, I'll stop my rant now.

Beagletorque
10th September 2015, 11:51 AM
Nikon was partly right on the macro - micro thing. Technically micro is up to 1:1 and macro is magnifications above that. None of the normal Nikon's go above 1:1 without additions!

Zuiko
10th September 2015, 12:10 PM
Nikon was partly right on the macro - micro thing. Technically micro is up to 1:1 and macro is magnifications above that. None of the normal Nikon's go above 1:1 without additions!

"Micro" or "Macro" - both these terms probably mean very little to the layman. The average Aussie, for example, would probably just describe these both as "Fxxxxxx close." :D

Beagletorque
10th September 2015, 12:12 PM
Same as us then!

Ross the fiddler
10th September 2015, 12:32 PM
Nikon was partly right on the macro - micro thing. Technically micro is up to 1:1 and macro is magnifications above that. None of the normal Nikon's go above 1:1 without additions!

Except it was only Nikon that went that way. :rolleyes:

"Micro" or "Macro" - both these terms probably mean very little to the layman. The average Aussie, for example, would probably just describe these both as "Fxxxxxx close." :D

It's just as well I'm not average then. :eek: I'm above average & I'm totally modest too & am so proud of my modesty! :p :D

Naughty Nigel
10th September 2015, 12:49 PM
The legal risk of teaching is also stressful too. That's when having a union pays off if a student (or parents) decide there is some legal challenge they want to take take out against a teacher (it may be justified or the parent & student are just unreasonable losers) as they can legally represent the teacher.

Agreed. But teaching unions also make teachers fireproof, or so it seems.

In our daughter's case the college admits there is a longstanding problem with the provision of Biology tuition, and a shorter term problem with Chemistry.

Almost the entire class failed both AS Biology and Chemistry this year, but the college refuses to do anything about it on the grounds that 'we have procedures to follow' and 'the teachers' interests must come first'.

What is worse is that many students have been told to drop these subjects rather than retake them; presumably because it is easier that way. :mad:

Otto
10th September 2015, 05:07 PM
I joined what was then my local camera club many years ago and was asked what equipment I used. "Olympus". "O dear ...". It turned out there was a big Minolta clique in the club; however they shut up when I started winning all their print competitions!

At uni in the 70s, everyone kept going on about how Hewlett-Packard made the best scientific calculators, I think the HP-45 was regarded as the one to have. I chose a Texas SR-56 and got laughed at because it had bracket keys instead of the HP's "reverse Polish notation". It was also less than half the price, had storage for twice as many program steps, and when tested by entering 45 degrees and then taking sin, cos, tan, artcan, arcos, arcsin returned 45.0004 degrees. The HP returned 45.02. so in that calculation at least my Texas was 3 orders of magnitude more accurate!

The biggest sellers are not necessarily the best - look at sliced white bread for instance :). I have a friend who has a fairly basic Canon DSLR with the standard kit zoom lens, and the chromatic aberration is appalling, especially in the corners. The basic Oly 14-42 knocks spots off it! Maybe he has a poor sample?

Petrochemist
10th September 2015, 05:43 PM
Its should not be about the camera brand, but about the camera. The camera should have the necessary controls needed for the course easily accessable. Now it may be that canikon have more cameras that fall into this category and so there is a wider range to choose from (budget permitting) than when choosing from some other brands but it does not mean that the other brands do not have a cameras in their range that fulfill the requirement.


I'd be surprised if there are ANY DSLRs or mirrorless cameras made in the last 5 years that wouldn't be capable of doing everything needed for an A level course. Unless the course includes some analogue work - but I believe that film is not normally part of the syllabus any more.

DerekW
10th September 2015, 06:03 PM
To complete the Teacher word play.

Those that can do,

those that cannot - teach

Those that cannot teach - teach teachers

Those that cannot teach teachers - become school inspectors

etc etc

PS my wife was a teacher.

Wee man
10th September 2015, 06:11 PM
Ah; but those who now can have been taught by teachers!

Zuiko
10th September 2015, 07:48 PM
I'd be surprised if there are ANY DSLRs or mirrorless cameras made in the last 5 years that wouldn't be capable of doing everything needed for an A level course. Unless the course includes some analogue work - but I believe that film is not normally part of the syllabus any more.

Film is still part of the syllabus and the school has a fully equipped darkroom plus a number of film cameras.

Bikie John
10th September 2015, 08:13 PM
Film is still part of the syllabus and the school has a fully equipped darkroom plus a number of film cameras.

Wow! Much as I hated it, I think my school was quite good - but we didn't have anything like that!

John

Naughty Nigel
10th September 2015, 08:18 PM
Film is still part of the syllabus and the school has a fully equipped darkroom plus a number of film cameras.

Film is definitely part of the photography degree course at most of the universities that offer it, although I think it is principally for B&W work these days.

Beagletorque
10th September 2015, 08:24 PM
I went to a Catholic school so the dark room was best avoided unless you wanted be molested by a priest.

Zuiko
10th September 2015, 10:13 PM
Film is definitely part of the photography degree course at most of the universities that offer it, although I think it is principally for B&W work these days.

She wants to do a degree course at Falmouth. :)

Who's_E
10th September 2015, 10:44 PM
She wants to do a degree course at Falmouth. :)

Great university. I went to Camborne School if Mines there and the art/photography was great to see on campus at the same time.

Ironically, our lecturer told one chap who had a WH Smith cheapo scientific calculator to "get a proper one like a Casio" (!) because the chap couldn't follow the steps on the cheap one.

Nick

Olybirder
10th September 2015, 10:51 PM
My friends' son completed a degree course in photography at Glasgow University and it was all based around film. He is now running the catering department in a pub in Norwich! :)

Ron

Zuiko
10th September 2015, 11:05 PM
My friends' son completed a degree course in photography at Glasgow University and it was all based around film. He is now running the catering department in a pub in Norwich! :)

Ron

Yeah, a degree doesn't always translate into a career but at least she is following her dream and you never know what the future holds. :)

Naughty Nigel
11th September 2015, 10:39 AM
She wants to do a degree course at Falmouth. :)

Good choice and a lovely location.

Our son is starting a photography degree course at Sunderland next week, having decided against completing his music degree at Manchester.

Film, photographic paper and wet processing are essential elements of the course. I am also looking forward to him trying out the Mamiya 711 and RB67 for projects. *yes

As you say John, a degree doesn't guarantee a job in any chosen field, but it does open up a whole new raft of opportunities, which (rightly or wrongly) are simply not available to non-graduates. However, it all depends on the individual, their creative abilities and the genre of photography that they specialise in.

Sadly though, like many other professions, photographers have to compete with those who believe they can do an equal job with a 40 MP phone camera - which must be good because it has forty million pixels! :(

pandora
16th September 2015, 10:59 AM
Someone may have already quoted it here but if not, "Those who can, do - those that can't, teach"

Wee man
16th September 2015, 11:42 AM
See 42 above.