PDA

View Full Version : Buttons freeze; Lock-up?


birdboy
29th November 2013, 08:46 PM
Up to this point I had not had any of the lock-ups described but I am not sure if what happened today is related so hence new thread.

I have upgraded to 1.1 and carried out a full reset. I was shooting with the camera on a tripod with SIS-Auto (I know I should have had it turned off) I was in A mode with the 12-60 f2.8 pro lens set at f2.8 and in C-AF; I was in LV with touch screen set on and had been using the touch screen to take pics; raw only; spot metering; AEL/AFL set to C1; C-AF lock off; face priority focus on face near side eye selected; AF illumination on; RLS Priority C on; half way RLS with IS on; Lens IS off; Release lag-time short: battery was showing all green;

I had just taken 5 shots of my daughter’s cat on a table quite close to me and my 4 year old grandson had taken some of these by tapping the screen. I took a picture using the touch screen. I then tried to use the shutter button for the next picture and noticed it had no effect although the LV screen was still showing live pictures. I tried several other buttons none of which had any effect. I turned the camera off and that had no effect the live screen was still showing a live picture so some of the software must have been working. I took the battery out of the camera and replaced it and everything was working fine again.

With all this clever stuff activated I think I may have overloaded the demands of the software with one possible culprit being the Release lag time.

How does this compare with those who got lock-ups before?

This was the last pic taken before the button freeze; full exif should be available.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/PD290005.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/68026)

brian1208
29th November 2013, 08:52 PM
Unfortunately I then tried to use the shutter button for the next picture and noticed it had no effect although the LV screen was still showing live pictures. I tried several other buttons none of which had any effect. I turned the camera off and that had no effect the live screen was still showing a live picture so some of the software must have been working. I took the battery out of the camera and replaced it and everything was working fine again.


that is the classic sign of a lock-up that many of us have experienced, except that I think, we all have a locked image of the last shot on the LCD


Time to call Chris.

Its bit worrying that it is still showing the effect after v1.1 is loaded

andym
29th November 2013, 08:54 PM
Just how my E-M5 is every now and again, I assume I've been lucky with my E-M1

birdboy
29th November 2013, 09:04 PM
Unfortunately

that is the classic sign of a lock-up that many of us have experienced, except that I think, we all have a locked image of the last shot on the LCD


Time to call Chris.

Its bit worrying that it is still showing the effect after v1.1 is loaded

Thanks Brian it seems that maybe have made some headway but not fully resolved the issue. I would not have called this a lock-up myself because clearly some of the software was still working. I assume that buttons are on interrupts and that's the part of the software that was not working. I am guessing that there are still bugs in this software as my black dot issue has not been totally resolved either.:mad:

birdboy
29th November 2013, 09:07 PM
Just how my E-M5 is every now and again, I assume I've been lucky with my E-M1

NO don't tell they have put EM5 firmware in the EM1:eek: or did I buy an EM5 off to check now.;)

brian1208
29th November 2013, 09:39 PM
I would not have called this a lock-up myself because clearly some of the software was still working

Let's start a new category then a "Lock-out", the lights are on but there's no one home! ;)

should have said earlier, that is a very fine Puss you have there. They make great test subjects (when they can be bothered)

I don't know if you saw the results of a research project announced recently? Apparently cats recognise their "owners" voices but usually can't be bothered to respond. Anyone who shares a house with a cat could have told them that :D

birdboy
29th November 2013, 10:54 PM
Let's start a new category then a "Lock-out", the lights are on but there's no one home! ;)

should have said earlier, that is a very fine Puss you have there. They make great test subjects (when they can be bothered)

I don't know if you saw the results of a research project announced recently? Apparently cats recognise their "owners" voices but usually can't be bothered to respond. Anyone who shares a house with a cat could have told them that :D

I think its more like everyone running around inside the house and no one wants to open the door, JW?:D

The cats name is Arnie, nothing to do with me, and if you want the best seat in the house you'll have to move him.:)

magicaxeman
30th November 2013, 12:39 AM
Just a thought but could your grandson have accidentally touched the wireless icon? as that will lock all the buttons, but I would have though the wireless connection screen would have popped up to show you it was on.

birdboy
30th November 2013, 11:17 AM
Just a thought but could your grandson have accidentally touched the wireless icon? as that will lock all the buttons, but I would have though the wireless connection screen would have popped up to show you it was on.

Interesting thought but I am sure he did not because I took the last picture not him. Up until the new firmware I had touch screen turned off so I am thinking that this problem is related to that setup.

photo_owl
30th November 2013, 11:47 AM
Thanks Brian it seems that maybe have made some headway but not fully resolved the issue. I would not have called this a lock-up myself because clearly some of the software was still working. I assume that buttons are on interrupts and that's the part of the software that was not working. I am guessing that there are still bugs in this software as my black dot issue has not been totally resolved either.:mad:

I agree

however it would also be too easy to put your settings together with your use of the phrase 'tapping the screen' to conclude that this was a predictable matter when having Release Lag set to short, as I think you suspect.

I've yet to find a practical difference in having that setting, and have therefore concluded it's simply best avoided given the caution, but there must be a practical benefit in some mode or Oly wouldn't have included it with it's inherent risks!

I agree that you should 'report it' - even more so because you have the settings and symptoms clearly established.

birdboy
30th November 2013, 12:19 PM
I agree

however it would also be too easy to put your settings together with your use of the phrase 'tapping the screen' to conclude that this was a predictable matter when having Release Lag set to short, as I think you suspect.

I've yet to find a practical difference in having that setting, and have therefore concluded it's simply best avoided given the caution, but there must be a practical benefit in some mode or Oly wouldn't have included it with it's inherent risks!

I agree that you should 'report it' - even more so because you have the settings and symptoms clearly established.

Release lag set to short is not something I normally shoot with. I had set this to short as I use it with my BIF setting and I had just gone though resetting all my C-AF BIF setting and saved to Myset1. The thinking behind this use is to give less time between frames and hence enable better tracking of the bird through the EVF. I am aware of the warnings about jarring the camera and maybe causing it freeze but I did leave it a while hoping the camera would come out of its leave me alone sulk, maybe should leave it longer but for now the release lag has been reset to normal. The asterisk on p 92 does not indicate that the on/off button will become inoperative which leads me to believe that it is unpredictable behavour.

BTW has anyone else noticed that when you toggle this setting (Release Lag-Time) and touch the shutter button half way that the camera makes a noise different dependent which way you are setting it. It suggests to me that something mechanical is being set.

photo_owl
30th November 2013, 02:19 PM
BTW has anyone else noticed that when you toggle this setting (Release Lag-Time) and touch the shutter button half way that the camera makes a noise different dependent which way you are setting it. It suggests to me that something mechanical is being set.

yes and yes - but has anyone managed to test the actual practical difference?

...resetting all my C-AF BIF setting and saved to Myset1. The thinking behind this use is to give less time between frames and hence enable better tracking of the bird through the EVF...

I can't see how it can make any difference in the context of 6.5fps and relatively short shutter speeds (assuming the latter of course) and am personally unable to discern a difference when viewing - from a release speed perspective I can't put together a test that isn't involving my reaction times.

As already posted, it must provide a practical solution to something or Oly wouldn't have included it!

birdboy
30th November 2013, 02:47 PM
I can't see how it can make any difference in the context of 6.5fps and relatively short shutter speeds (assuming the latter of course) and am personally unable to discern a difference when viewing - from a release speed perspective I can't put together a test that isn't involving my reaction times.

As already posted, it must provide a practical solution to something or Oly wouldn't have included it!

I must agree and that I have been unable to notice a difference myself as of yet. It could be that this is just one of those settings that make microseconds difference under controlled test conditions but random results in practice. It would be great for Olympus to give a bit more information about this setting. Because I used this before Friday without any problems I do not think it contributed to the button freeze problem. My own suspicions is that the touch screen setting is a more likely candidate as that is an input device. I had touch screen turned off for most of my pre button freeze incident. Its now turned off again.

Thanks all for your input on this. I have emailed Customer support attention Chris Dale with my experience so shall wait and see what he has to say on the issue.

Dave in Wales
30th November 2013, 04:05 PM
I had a lock-up after installing 1.1.

What were the camera settings and what I did spacifically, I'm ashamed to say I can't recall,

I released the battery....Hunky-dory.

birdboy
30th November 2013, 06:36 PM
I had a lock-up after installing 1.1.

What were the camera settings and what I did spacifically, I'm ashamed to say I can't recall,

I released the battery....Hunky-dory.

A good indication is to look at the exif of your last picture taken before the lock-up. It does not get everything and sometime if you use OV3 the information is presented in a more readable Olympus form. I was aware of the problems with issues and made a determined decision that if I got one I would make notes at the time of what I did just before the incident. It will certainly help Oly trouble shoot if we all did this. I have sent the last picture to Oly with the exif in tact.

My first question would be did you have touch screen enabled?

brian1208
8th December 2013, 12:25 PM
Another lock-up to report, the first with the replacement camera :(

with v1.1 firmware loaded and using the 75-300mk2.


The same symptoms as previously, suddenly all controls stopped responding and the last shot appeared on the LCD. Switching off had no effect and only battery removal resolved the issue. (Battery was still showing all bars lit and was pretty close to fully charged)


Shooting using SAF, with ISO400, 6fps, aperture priority, Release Time Normal and all other settings as per factory set-up

I've passed the info on to Chris Dale

bredman
8th December 2013, 05:25 PM
Sorry to hear that Brian. I spoke to Chris the other day -- they're still working on it. I'm still recovering from norovirus and eager to get the EM1 working after my recent 'grey' image.

brian1208
8th December 2013, 05:37 PM
Thanks for letting me know that Pete (I had rather hoped they would be :) )

Hope you get over the "noro" soon, its a nasty bug

birdboy
8th December 2013, 06:40 PM
Another lock-up to report, the first with the replacement camera :(

with v1.1 firmware loaded and using the 75-300mk2.


The same symptoms as previously, suddenly all controls stopped responding and the last shot appeared on the LCD. Switching off had no effect and only battery removal resolved the issue. (Battery was still showing all bars lit and was pretty close to fully charged)


Shooting using SAF, with ISO400, 6fps, aperture priority, Release Time Normal and all other settings as per factory set-up

I've passed the info on to Chris Dale

Sorry to read this Brian but not surprised. I am thinking that the next time it happens I am going to leave the camera alone for some time just to see if the problem times out by itself. I am thinking along the lines of Windows software where it does seem sometimes that if you leave things a while rather than physically turn off it eventually gets things right.

I reported my problem but still have not heard from Chris :(

Alpha1
8th December 2013, 07:42 PM
Computers can and do behave in a similar fashion following a series of rapid consecutive keyboard changes. It is often a sign of operating memory shortage. A temporary solution is to close down any program's not being used. However the only long term cure is to increase memory, or get a larger computer!

I really don't have any idea how digital camera memory is organised, but with so many lock-ups reported it could be a clue as to the cause? As to the cure, then more memory may be needed (EM-2?) or at least some sort of electronic damper to eliminate the effect of rapid button changes? (Firmware?)

Luckily, at my great age, I don't do anything quick so with a bit of luck, I may be spared this problem! *zzz

brian1208
8th December 2013, 08:26 PM
I do hope you are right Dave, but in this latest case no button changes were taking place and I was only shooting a few frames under very normal conditions, so there shouldn't have been any strain on mechanics, electronics or software

I really do hope its a one-off for me as I don't fancy another run of problems such as I had with body #1 :(

brian1208
9th December 2013, 01:08 PM
Two more this morning, I'm getting a little unhappy, this is the report I sent to Chris


Another 2 lock-ups this morning, once again with nothing excessive happening in the way of settings or use.


The first was a "Grey Screen" lock-up". I had the camera in hand but not being used (still live though, it hadn't gone to sleep), went to take a shot but all I got was a grey screen, which required battery removal.


Second lock up was after a short sequence (four shots) at 6fps, with SAF mode, Aperture priority, small centre point focus. 1/2000th sec, ISO 400, f6.7. Locked on processing last shot with the orange folder symbol showing to left of LCD (note I was working with EVF but, as seems normal, it locked with the LCD active)


As you can imagine, I'm not a happy photographer at the moment Chris and hope you can let me know what is being done to resolve this on-going problem


One thought struck me, with both bodies, the first few thousand shots were problem free (I'm up around 2.5k shots at the moment, not a lot as I shoot every day)

jamsa
9th December 2013, 01:23 PM
watching with lots of interest....

Bikie John
9th December 2013, 02:06 PM
Brian, could you let us know who you are sending details to please? I've had occasional lockups before and after firmware 1.1 and would like to report them.

My symptoms, since the upgrade at least, appear to be a completely dead camera. Nothing in the viewfinder or on back screen, buttons including main power switch don't do anything at all. Battery out-in brought it back to life. I only shoot single shot and usually on S-AF so it's hard to see how I could be overloading the processor.

There was one side-effect that really annoyed me on Saturday. I was shooting a rugby match, so aperture priority and close to wide-open for narrow dof and fast shutter speeds. Previously I had been doing some more "ordinary" stuff - and when it came back it had regressed to those settings. I was trying to follow a passage of play and didn't notice that I was getting very slow shutter speeds until the next break. The resulting blur isn't even creative or interesting - it's just crap :(

Ciao ... John

DerekW
9th December 2013, 02:43 PM
This is why there is an incentive program to maximise the number of early adopters to help debug the device.

brian1208
9th December 2013, 02:49 PM
Brian, could you let us know who you are sending details to please? I've had occasional lockups before and after firmware 1.1 and would like to report them.


Its Chris Dale at Olympus support most of us are in contact with John. (I believe he is still reading this site as well, to keep up with the situation)

He has responded and tells me that Japan is still trying to find a resolution to this problem, so firmware v1.1 clearly wasn't the solution

Its getting beyond the "being a Beta Tester" stage as far as I am concerned at the moment, Olympus have really dropped the ball with this one. I do hope they get it sorted soon because my veneer of calm is beginning to fray a bit at the edges :(

Olybirder
9th December 2013, 03:14 PM
Sorry to hear this Brian. I hope they get to the bottom of it soon. I still don't understand why there are few, if any, reports of the problem on sites other than this one. :confused:

Ron

brian1208
9th December 2013, 03:19 PM
They are out there Ron but don't forget this thread and the originally I started are specifically to collate data on lock-ups, so by definition the contributors will show nearly 100% problems

In other threads such reports tend to get lost in the general "Noise" (m4/3rds is rubbish, best in the world, mine's bigger than yours etc :D )

The truth is out there (to quote some TV show or other *chr )

bredman
9th December 2013, 04:37 PM
Sorry to hear this Brian. I hope they get to the bottom of it soon. I still don't understand why there are few, if any, reports of the problem on sites other than this one. :confused:

Ron

I did mention this to Chris. He is certain the issue is more widespread and not specific to UK batches/serial numbers.

bredman
9th December 2013, 04:39 PM
Two more this morning, I'm getting a little unhappy, this is the report I sent to Chris

Sounds like my grey screen img. Is it similar to the grey screen i had, post #238 on the main lockup thread?

brian1208
9th December 2013, 05:00 PM
that's exactly what I saw Pete, first and only time so far

raichea
10th December 2013, 12:28 AM
I've mentioned before that I don't believe the lockups are anything to do with processor overloading. I would hope that the Olympus engineers were savvy enough to select a CPU and design a balanced system with sufficient horsepower to do the job. Much more likely that it's an unintentional race hazard that creates a small window of opportunity under a certain set of circumstances such that, if you press the shutter during that short period, the camera will lock up.

brian1208
10th December 2013, 04:42 AM
Much more likely that it's an unintentional race hazard that creates a small window of opportunity under a certain set of circumstances such that, if you press the shutter during that short period, the camera will lock up.

It sounds feasible but there have been several instances of lock-up when no shutter button action has been involved so I'm not convinced that is a primary cause (although it may contribute through some second order interaction?)

raichea
10th December 2013, 08:32 AM
It sounds feasible but there have been several instances of lock-up when no shutter button action has been involved so I'm not convinced that is a primary cause (although it may contribute through some second order interaction?)
I haven't read every instance, by my impression was that the shutter was involved in the cases I've read about. However, that is not core to my comment... It is possible that just some random alignment of internal states could generate the lockup condition. In many cases I've been involved with over the years, though, it is some asynchronous (ie unrelated to the system's internal timing) input occuring at just the wrong time that causes misoperation. This could be as simple as pressing any of the buttons, causing a switch from LCD to EVF or even a slight movement causing an IBIS change.

Dick Bowman
10th December 2013, 08:38 AM
I've commented before that I (and others) have had similar lockups with older cameras (E1 and E3 in my case) and that I suspect firmware - further that all Olympus firmware probably derives from a common development route, it's the same underlying cause.

Which makes me pose two questions...

Is the EM-1 significantly worse than other Olympus bodies in this respect?
Do other camera brands have similar faults?

brian1208
10th December 2013, 08:51 AM
I haven't read every instance, by my impression was that the shutter was involved in the cases I've read about. However, that is not core to my comment... It is possible that just some random alignment of internal states could generate the lockup condition. In many cases I've been involved with over the years, though, it is some asynchronous (ie unrelated to the system's internal timing) input occuring at just the wrong time that causes misoperation. This could be as simple as pressing any of the buttons, causing a switch from LCD to EVF or even a slight movement causing an IBIS change.

Yes, I agree completely

I'm beginning to wonder if its related in some way to the IBIS suspension coils but that's pure speculation at the moment (that and the fact that when my first body failed the IBIS went AWOL, I assumed it was a consequence but now wonder if it was a cause)

re: the shutter button actuation as a cause, a couple of us have experienced a "grey screen" lock-up without the buttons being involved in any way, mine occurred yesterday when I was simply holding the body by the grip and lens, with power on, deciding what to shoot next

Alpha1
10th December 2013, 09:10 AM
Just a thought, how many of these lock-up's were experienced whilst using the battery grip accessory? Could it be a connection problem? I know Brian is using the battery grip. If others are not using the grip but still suffer lock-up's then that possibility is eliminated.

brian1208
10th December 2013, 09:14 AM
That's an interesting thought Dave, I'll check to confirm but I'm pretty sure I was getting lock-ups without the grip on my first body

It will be put on the table of factors and hopefully others can let me know what their situation was when they got the lock up, grip or no grip

StephenL
10th December 2013, 09:31 AM
My single lock-up occurred without the grip, 'cos I've not got one yet! It was on its first outing with the supplied battery - previously I'd been using ex-E-M5 batteries.

brian1208
10th December 2013, 09:38 AM
Thanks Stephen, that can go on the list :)

Wee man
10th December 2013, 04:23 PM
Mine also without grip, only using 12-40 lens, camera froze battery out to reset.

birdboy
10th December 2013, 07:32 PM
My freeze button which started this thread was without a grip (HLD7) cos I've not got mine yet either.

BTW I email Cris Dale on the 30 Nov and so far have not got a acknowledgment or reply. I don't know if he is just communicating with you Brian as a single point which I am happy just so lo9ng as the issue is logged. I think mine is significant because I still had a live screen showing, it was that none of the buttons had any effect. So some processing was working.

bredman
10th December 2013, 07:42 PM
My first 2 lockups without grip, the second 2 with grip.

I have spoke with Chris several times now and can assure everyone he's a level headed guy and is collating everything and passing it on to Japan.