PDA

View Full Version : EM-1 Strange banding in blue sky


kevm1
21st November 2013, 02:30 PM
Just had this image sent to me from a friend who's currently shooting on the new EM-1 with the 12-40mm lens fitted. He's out in Japan and very dissapointed to see the way the EM-1 is rendering blue skies.

There appears to be blotchy type banding in areas of blue skies. Not occuring on every single shot but several in a sequence taken from the same angle and lighting conditions.

Wondered if anyone else has had similar experiences or any thoughts on the reason for this.

I'm also shooting on the EM-1 with the Panasonic 12-35 as I've yet to get hold of the 12-40mm. I've not had the chance to shoot many blue skies with the EM-1 but I did have some similar issues with the EM-5 earlier this year shooting a wedding in Cyprus. Again, the banding wasn't on every frame but on several in succession using the same angle and lighting conditions.

I've attached an image and you can clearly see the issue in the top left hand of the picture.

Any comments or thoughts greatly appreciated.

photo_owl
21st November 2013, 02:45 PM
welcome to posting!

for any meaningful evaluation you will have to get him to post the RAW file to an online storage capability for download - or at a very minimum access the the 100% jpeg and an understanding of all the shooting settings and compression.

Rawcoll
21st November 2013, 03:17 PM
It looks like jpeg compression artefacts. Is he seeing this straight out of camera, or is he using RAW?

Graham_of_Rainham
21st November 2013, 03:30 PM
Looks like classic 8-Bit jpg post process leveling.

I do a demonstration using the Graduation tool in Photoshop to produce just this effect. In 8-Bit this is exactly what I can produce. In 16-Bit it is not seen.

*chr

David Morison
21st November 2013, 03:34 PM
It looks like jpeg compression artefacts. Is he seeing this straight out of camera, or is he using RAW?

My thoughts too.

kevm1
21st November 2013, 03:35 PM
Hi

Shooting RAW and jpeg and this is a copy of the jpeg straight from the camera

Graham_of_Rainham
21st November 2013, 03:43 PM
I only ever shoot RAW as there is an embedded thumbnail in the ORF that I can use for preview. My workflow is to produce any jpg as I require them in a batch process using a FREE editor called Faststone.

If I'm using Lightroom, then a quick export from there will do the same thing.

I see this effect from all sorts of cameras and it almost always comes from 8-Bit files in some format or other.

Certainly not a cause for concern for the OMDs. But it might be for those that really want to shoot small jpg files.

Ulfric M Douglas
21st November 2013, 03:49 PM
Welcome to the forum Kevm1

Introduce yourself, post some snapshots, discuss some inane stuff.
Any comments or thoughts greatly appreciated.
466 pixels wide with severe Jpeg processing artefacts : sometimes they happen in Photomatix, I can get pain-shop-pro to do it too.

For whatever reason someone's not telling the whole story, eh?

If this thread doesn't go anywhere I'd like Ian to delete the whole thing, especially the trolling title : could just be some commercial interference.

Prove me wrong Kevm1.

photo_owl
21st November 2013, 03:54 PM
Looks like classic 8-Bit jpg post process leveling.

I do a demonstration using the Graduation tool in Photoshop to produce just this effect. In 8-Bit this is exactly what I can produce. In 16-Bit it is not seen.

*chr

I knew there was a way I'd managed to create this 'look' a few years ago - just couldn't remember how earlier!

I've never seen it since from any full resolution camera jpeg I've shot.

Couldn't you also create it on one of the E camera's review screen through a mis match of selected resolution and viewing magnification?

Ian
21st November 2013, 04:14 PM
Welcome to the e-group :)

Please don't use the forum attachments facility for photos; either use the gallery space you have for free here as a registered member or use your own web space and embed an image using the embed photo icon.

Thanks,

Ian

byegad
21st November 2013, 04:32 PM
Looks like a polarize filter problem to me. But I'm happy to be proved wrong.

kevm1
21st November 2013, 04:43 PM
Only filter fitted is an Hoya Pro1 digital clear protector

Graham_of_Rainham
21st November 2013, 05:06 PM
Entirely produced in Photoshop at 8-Bit depth. :cool:

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/Radial_Gradiant_8_Bit_Level.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/67866)

TonyR
21st November 2013, 06:22 PM
Welcome to the e-group :)

Please don't use the forum attachments facility for photos; either use the gallery space you have for free here as a registered member or use your own web space and embed an image using the embed photo icon.

Thanks,

Ian

If using the gallery, is there any way to see the full sized image? I find the gallery images too small to be useful.

Greytop
21st November 2013, 06:24 PM
Hi

Shooting RAW and jpeg and this is a copy of the jpeg straight from the camera

Can you host the RAW so that we can have a meaningful look?

Rawcoll
21st November 2013, 06:49 PM
Shooting RAW and jpeg and this is a copy of the jpeg straight from the camera

I'd expect to see it in the posted image because of the severe down-sizing, but I think I'd be a bit disappointed to see it straight from camera. But then, I only use RAW and tend not to look at the jpegs. Others who do use jpegs will no doubt be able to reveal their own experiences.

Zuiko
21st November 2013, 07:34 PM
If using the gallery, is there any way to see the full sized image? I find the gallery images too small to be useful.

Yes, when posting from the gallery make sure that "Original Image" is selected from the drop down box, for some reason it often defaults to "Thumbnail." I always use the gallery and usually size my pictures at 864 pixels wide or 720 pixels high.

brian1208
21st November 2013, 07:34 PM
I've certainly not seen this when shooting LSF jpgs, it reminds me of the effect I used to see when shooting the smallest, most compressed jpg files in some of my older models from a few years ago - "posterisation" I think it was called

there a many references to this effect if you search the web, here are a few links

possibly the most explanatory article

http://regex.info/blog/lightroom-goodies/jpeg-quality#example

some others showing its a generic problem, not specific to Olympus

http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/5317/how-to-avoid-jpeg-compression-artefacts-when-saving-photos-in-web-resolution

http://photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00a9Ee

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-1264076.html

kevm1
21st November 2013, 09:43 PM
Maybe take a day or so before I can get hold of the RAW file as my friend can only e mail to me via an ipad but which can't handle the RAW file.

benvendetta
21st November 2013, 10:22 PM
That is a compression problem, not a camera problem.

bilbo
22nd November 2013, 07:32 AM
Maybe take a day or so before I can get hold of the RAW file as my friend can only e mail to me via an ipad but which can't handle the RAW file.I wouldn't bother. The issue is clearly in the processing not the camera. That jpeg is way too small to be "out of camera". It has simply been over-processed.

jamespetts
24th November 2013, 12:26 AM
The JPEG compression ratio can be customised in the camera. Perhaps this is what happens when it is set at the lowest level?

kevm1
28th November 2013, 10:30 PM
I've had numerous e mails back and forth with Olympus over this issue and to be fair to them, they did respond quite quickly to my issue. As I've explained in the initial post, the camera was being used in RAW mode only and this issue was showing on the back of the camera straight away after taking the image with no user post processing in camera. The issue was also the same importing to an Ipad using Olympus Image Share.

Below is the final response from them and basically, they're saying if you shoot in RAW mode only, then the preview from the built in jpeg thumbnail is no good for viewing on the camera's LCD screen.

Being a working professional who nearly almost shoots RAW only, this isn't good news. I could easily be in a position where I'd need to preview an image to a client on location and wouldn't want to show them a faulty looking image.

Never had this issue when I've shot RAW only with Nikons for many years. I think if Olympus want to tempt more pros to make the change to smaller lighter MFT systems they'll need to improve this.

Below is the final response from Olympus today

The RAW format is not suitable for viewing on the camera LCD. For this purpose please use the JPEG recording mode. If you need RAW files but also you want to preview the pictures directly on the camera then select RAW+JPEG shooting mode (e.g. RAW+SN) and preview the JPEG files which is much faster and without any artefacts.

brian1208
28th November 2013, 10:36 PM
The RAW format is not suitable for viewing on the camera LCD. For this purpose please use the JPEG recording mode. If you need RAW files but also you want to preview the pictures directly on the camera then select RAW+JPEG shooting mode (e.g. RAW+SN) and preview the JPEG files which is much faster and without any artefacts.

don't see the problem really, this works (and was the way I shot with my Canon system too)

photo_owl
28th November 2013, 11:01 PM
I've had numerous e mails back and forth with Olympus over this issue and to be fair to them, they did respond quite quickly to my issue.
As I've explained in the initial post, the camera was being used in RAW mode only and this issue was showing on the back of the camera straight away after taking the image .....

Not what I took from your initial post at all - you even posted a jpeg showing the effect, and there was no reference to OIShare.

You would have got a much quicker response if you had.

It's real easy to generate this look by shooting RAW, importing into OIShare and adding the dramatic tone filter to just about any sky....instant banding *chr

kevm1
28th November 2013, 11:12 PM
The jpeg posted was identical on the camera LCD and no filters were used when importing thru OIS. This was the built in jpeg from the original RAW unchanged.

benvendetta
28th November 2013, 11:35 PM
I always thought that when shooting in RAW only, the camera only ever displayed a generated jpeg on the screen. I can't see why you would have to set the camera to record in both formats.

Greytop
29th November 2013, 01:07 AM
I'd still like to see the original RAW file.

Phill D
29th November 2013, 07:34 AM
Interesting thread as I get the same banding in images when I display them as my desktop background. The original jpgs look fine but the desktop version looks banded. Looks like something is done when fitting to a desktop which is very annoying.

David Morison
29th November 2013, 08:03 AM
I don't usually take shots with a clear blue sky, preferring stormy looking ones. However I do have quite a few of BIFs against a blue sky taken with the EM1 using jpeg and haven't noticed this problem. I do usually though crop fairly severely so wouldn't see this anyhow but I will examine all my originals to see if any banding is there.

David

Ulfric M Douglas
29th November 2013, 08:24 AM
David it's just a red-herring.
(In my vague opinion the thread should be deleted.)

OlyPaul
29th November 2013, 09:15 AM
David it's just a red-herring.
(In my vague opinion the thread should be deleted.)

+1 and the fact there is no exif info in the posted image.

Zuiko
29th November 2013, 09:32 AM
I've had numerous e mails back and forth with Olympus over this issue and to be fair to them, they did respond quite quickly to my issue. As I've explained in the initial post, the camera was being used in RAW mode only and this issue was showing on the back of the camera straight away after taking the image with no user post processing in camera. The issue was also the same importing to an Ipad using Olympus Image Share.

Below is the final response from them and basically, they're saying if you shoot in RAW mode only, then the preview from the built in jpeg thumbnail is no good for viewing on the camera's LCD screen.

Being a working professional who nearly almost shoots RAW only, this isn't good news. I could easily be in a position where I'd need to preview an image to a client on location and wouldn't want to show them a faulty looking image.

Never had this issue when I've shot RAW only with Nikons for many years. I think if Olympus want to tempt more pros to make the change to smaller lighter MFT systems they'll need to improve this.

Below is the final response from Olympus today

The RAW format is not suitable for viewing on the camera LCD. For this purpose please use the JPEG recording mode. If you need RAW files but also you want to preview the pictures directly on the camera then select RAW+JPEG shooting mode (e.g. RAW+SN) and preview the JPEG files which is much faster and without any artefacts.

Can I just confirm, are we still talking about your "friend in Japan" who cannot get a raw file to us, or are we now dealing with your experience with the camera? :confused:

David M
29th November 2013, 11:34 AM
I'd say leave the thread. I'm enjoying all the E-M1 threads where the 'experts' and 'pros' don' know how to use their tools.