PDA

View Full Version : BIF C-AF 5f Sequence EM1


birdboy
10th November 2013, 06:54 PM
I took the EM1 to my local park today to play around with BIF.
I used the 50-200mm swd manual mode. I have the E5 so was interested in the claims that the EM1 is as good as the E5 when it comes to C-AF.

I have to say that the EVF is a problem when trying to track BIF. In the end I adopted a half blind mode, that is take the first frame hold down the shutter ignore whats on the EVF and track the bird blind as it were.

Below is a 5 frame sequence shot I had set L fps to 4 fps. What surprises me is the distance between the black headed gulls in this sequence.

Focus is not particularly good even though I used f5.6 which should have given more than adequate DOF. I have left all frames uncropped and straight OOC other than processed to resize for here.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/PB100391.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/67491)
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/PB100392.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/67492)
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/PB100393.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/67493)
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/PB100394.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/67494)
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/PB100395.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/67495)

It could be that using the EM1 with 43 lenses requires a different technique. But my initial conclusion is that the EM1 is no match to the E5 when it comes to tracking BIF. Out of the 140 shots about 20 are just usable.

I should emphasis that this is just for BIF I particularly like many of the other features of the EM1 over the E5 but that's another thread.

John

photo_owl
10th November 2013, 08:01 PM
I'm afraid I don't understand what I'm looking at from a technical perspective ("I used the 50-200mm swd manual mode") and looking at the tracking range (implicit in the distance between the relative positions in the frame of the birds here) you have shown here I'm surprised that you got what you did with the 50-200 - I've found a small latitude but quite limited; certainly relative to an MSC m43 lens where it hangs on as long as the subject remains in the frame (somewhere), with the usual caveats re foreground interference and backgrounds.

really like the look of the second image here.

birdboy
10th November 2013, 08:42 PM
I'm afraid I don't understand what I'm looking at from a technical perspective ("I used the 50-200mm swd manual mode") and looking at the tracking range (implicit in the distance between the relative positions in the frame of the birds here) you have shown here ....

Sorry did not put my point across very well. Manual mode refers to the shutter and aperture being dialled in, not the lens and yes I was referring to the distance that the gulls had travelled between frames, I was expecting it to be less but having gone back to some of my E5 BIF pictures I can see that the distance is several metres when viewed with a background to gauge distance. I also forgot that I had limited the L fps to 4.

...I'm surprised that you got what you did with the 50-200 - I've found a small latitude but quite limited; certainly relative to an MSC m43 lens where it hangs on as long as the subject remains in the frame (somewhere), with the usual caveats re foreground interference and backgrounds.

Do I understand your latitude point correctly, in that you consider MSC m43 lens to be better at C-AF when tracking BIF on the EM1. I have the 12-40pro lens which I did not think performed better than the 50-200mm swd in terms of focus tracking. I am very interested in the 40-150 f2.8 when it shows itself as I think this would be a great lens on the EM1 for BIF.

The general point I was trying to make is that the Olympus claims that the EM1 would be a match for the E5 with BIF are not founded in my experience. I am not new at taking BIF, its what I practice a lot, but I do not claim to be an expert at it either.

David Morison
10th November 2013, 09:05 PM
Just viewing these on my iPad mini they look OK to me, but at the distance from the camera they are it would be quite possible for the camera to focus on the water beneath the Gulls which would likely be in focus as well.

I must admit to having no success with C-AF at all, when tracking a bird at half press the focus hunts a little back and forwards meaning that my success rate is very low. The E5 would not have had this problem to the same extent. Using S-AF however is a completely different kettle of fish, especially as I find that the 5x magnification box is a more reliable method of locking focus than the centre 9. I can track the bird at half press keeping it in the focus target area and can fire off three or four shots at 10 fps knowing that the bird will not have moved far enough to have gone out of focus. My keeper rate has soared using this method but I feel there is still some way to go before I am fully confident. The advantage is that at 10fps I am not tracking blind as I would be at 4fps. This method has also worked with the 4/3 Leica 14-150mm so having once owned a 50-200mm I would say that it should not be a problem.

So I think that the E-M1 has the potential to be better at BIF than the E5 but only by adopting different settings rather than relying on the experience gained with that camera.

David

brian1208
10th November 2013, 09:15 PM
So I think that the E-M1 has the potential to be better at BIF than the E5 but only by adopting different settings rather than relying on the experience gained with that camera.


I found the same when coming from the canon system to EM-5 and now EM-1

photo_owl
10th November 2013, 10:05 PM
Do I understand your latitude point correctly, in that you consider MSC m43 lens to be better at C-AF when tracking BIF on the EM1.

it's not a question of better - they work differently in conjunction with the tracking function and are more likely to retain a focus lock when the gap between the original AF area at lock and the subject increases.

the real issue for those comming from a PDAF background overall is the way we would previously look to introduce the target to the active PD array, or individual sensor, in which point it would willingly lock on and (in the absence of viable alternatives) hold focus. I would cite situations with, for example, the 50-200, where if you couldn't match an AF point to the target it would hunt, and hunt.... the OMD's seem to happily focus on clouds, which means you have to ensure the whole of the active AF area is covered by part of the target to ensure you get a valid lock.

the other (seemingly very effective) option is to use S-AF with FD and forget sequence shooting if the focus plane is changing. this has the advantage of being able to use H sequential, but you have to get into the habit of breaking the sequence to refocus if the subject distance changes.

my experiences with the 45 are miles away from the (old) 50-200 (not the best choice) so far, but given the performance on static subjects I have to conclude this is fundamentally a mismatch between user/settings.subject at this point.

right now I'm back to single point (s) centre in C-AF + T, shutter release priority off and lock high - chase the target round the sky with the 50-200 when I would be using centre group (or even all points) shutter priority on with the 3/30 and the same lens.

birdboy
10th November 2013, 10:36 PM
Just viewing these on my iPad mini they look OK to me, but at the distance from the camera they are it would be quite possible for the camera to focus on the water beneath the Gulls which would likely be in focus as well.

I must admit to having no success with C-AF at all, when tracking a bird at half press the focus hunts a little back and forwards meaning that my success rate is very low. The E5 would not have had this problem to the same extent. Using S-AF however is a completely different kettle of fish, especially as I find that the 5x magnification box is a more reliable method of locking focus than the centre 9. I can track the bird at half press keeping it in the focus target area and can fire off three or four shots at 10 fps knowing that the bird will not have moved far enough to have gone out of focus. My keeper rate has soared using this method but I feel there is still some way to go before I am fully confident. The advantage is that at 10fps I am not tracking blind as I would be at 4fps. This method has also worked with the 4/3 Leica 14-150mm so having once owned a 50-200mm I would say that it should not be a problem.

So I think that the E-M1 has the potential to be better at BIF than the E5 but only by adopting different settings rather than relying on the experience gained with that camera.

David

Thanks David I have been following your thread on this but have not considered it as an alternative to C-AF, until now. What I do not understand is why this helps in S-AF but not C-AF? I can see some advantages for this method especially when the bird is flying in front and across you.

Chevvyf1
11th November 2013, 09:32 AM
Thanks David I have been following your thread on this but have not considered it as an alternative to C-AF, until now. What I do not understand is why this helps in S-AF but not C-AF? I can see some advantages for this method especially when the bird is flying in front and across you.

What other settings did you apply ?

I am ecstatic with results obtained from the ONE and 75-300 for Bif. But sold my 50-200 Mk 1 and Mk2 so unable to report on these in use with the ONE !

David Morison
11th November 2013, 09:46 AM
Thanks David I have been following your thread on this but have not considered it as an alternative to C-AF, until now. What I do not understand is why this helps in S-AF but not C-AF? I can see some advantages for this method especially when the bird is flying in front and across you.

C-AF is constantly attempting to re-focus on the subject which can cause problems from background information, even clouds or clear sky unless the subject totally fills the target area. S-AF of course only focuses once so it's just right or wrong, which can be assessed visually before firing the shutter.

David

birdboy
11th November 2013, 10:20 AM
What other settings did you apply ?

I am ecstatic with results obtained from the ONE and 75-300 for Bif. But sold my 50-200 Mk 1 and Mk2 so unable to report on these in use with the ONE !

What I did was to replicate the C-AF settings from my E5. I did not try other settings as I want C-AF to work with the 50-200mm swd lens. Olympus has said that this works as good as the E5.

Are you using C-AF Chevvyf1 to get your bif?

I am getting a sense that the E-M1 is only a small improvement over the E-M5 when it comes to C-AF performance with 43 glass. This product was described as being as good as the E5. Iam finding that when it comes to C-AF it is some way off the mark. When the BSB season starts I want to be able to use the 50-200 swd in C-AF starting panning from distance with the rider approaching. If I am using the wrong settings I would like to know what Olympus used to justify this claim.

For the avoidance of any doubt this thread is about C-AF and tracking your subject while it moves relative to the background.

Sticking it in S-AF mode and banging away at the shutter button is not my idea of C-AF.

David Morison
11th November 2013, 10:50 AM
Sticking it in S-AF mode and banging away at the shutter button is not my idea of C-AF.

Who said it was?

brian1208
11th November 2013, 10:51 AM
Sticking it in S-AF mode and banging away at the shutter button is not my idea of C-AF.

No, but it does the job though *chr

photo_owl
11th November 2013, 10:56 AM
When the BSB season starts I want to be able to use the 50-200 swd in C-AF starting panning from distance with the rider approaching.


you will need to retain the AF area as close as possible to the target being tracked with a 43 lens - as per the manual page 73 ( With a Four Thirds system lens, the tracking range narrows. If the AF target is displayed in red, AF does not operate even if the subject is tracked.)

as you will be aware you need to use sequential L with C-AF, and you may need to take the interaction with IS into account when considering frame rate.

Chevvyf1
11th November 2013, 11:02 AM
What I did was to replicate the C-AF settings from my E5. I did not try other settings as I want C-AF to work with the 50-200mm swd lens. Olympus has said that this works as good as the E5.

Are you using C-AF Chevvyf1 to get your bif?

I am getting a sense that the E-M1 is only a small improvement over the E-M5 when it comes to C-AF performance with 43 glass. This product was described as being as good as the E5. Iam finding that when it comes to C-AF it is some way off the mark. When the BSB season starts I want to be able to use the 50-200 swd in C-AF starting panning from distance with the rider approaching. If I am using the wrong settings I would like to know what Olympus used to justify this claim.

For the avoidance of any doubt this thread is about C-AF and tracking your subject while it moves relative to the background.

Sticking it in S-AF mode and banging away at the shutter button is not my idea of C-AF.


Are you using the SWD 50-200 ? because I found it "hunting" lots on the E-5 but then I was rubbish with that combo :rolleyes:

I have no idea where you read "its as good with m43 lens as on E-5" because they are such very different systems :eek: For me, I did not expect the highest level of IQ compatibility - hence sold my 50-200 Mk 1 and Mk2 etc glass :( ... I did have moments of wishing I had not :(

BUT the benefits of the 75-300 are inestimable :D *chr

I asked about "other settings" you used, as this is technically a completely different system - and I have learned that SETTINGS are critical and use those recommended by the Pros :) I have posted them on here for all to see/use etc.,

Some say "the original OP does not know what they are talking about ..." :rolleyes: BUT I am getting FAB results which makes me ecstatic with this camera :D so good I got a second for backup *chr

birdboy
11th November 2013, 11:22 AM
C-AF is constantly attempting to re-focus on the subject which can cause problems from background information, even clouds or clear sky unless the subject totally fills the target area. S-AF of course only focuses once so it's just right or wrong, which can be assessed visually before firing the shutter.

David

This is no different from the problems faced by the E5. BIF is one type of shot where you need to use C-AF. The concept being that as your subjects moves the camera compensates by automatically adjusting its focus. Bif has its own set of problems to overcome. The bird's flapping wings as well as the motion through the air. I accept that backgrounds will confuse the issue. The shutter speed is determined by how much blur you want with the wings hence faster shutter speeds which should not need the use of IS (although I forgot to turn it off for some pics).

In some respects bike racing should be easier on the camera. The subject is not flapping around but has steady predicable motion albeit fast. The subject has good contrast and is colourful. Because of this you can slow down your shutter speed and as long as your panning action matches that of the subject you can get good effects.

I am just not getting the confidence that the E-M1 can deliver on C-AF.
When it comes to C-AF the trick is to keep your subject framed and your panning action smooth, with your finger fully pressed on the shutter button.

birdboy
11th November 2013, 11:28 AM
Who said it was?

I have interpreted this from what I have seen on this forum, from no one particular member, that one way to get BIF is to use S-AF. I have used that method in the past myself so I am very sorry if you felt it was aimed at you because it most certainly was not. I have great respect towards your contributions, photography skills and knowledge

brian1208
11th November 2013, 12:16 PM
I am just not getting the confidence that the E-M1 can deliver on C-AF.

Give it time, it took me a good 6 months to forget about doing it "The Canon Way" and gaining the confidence that the EM-5 could do what I wanted (within limitations)

Because of that intermediate step I have found that it is much easier to get confident that the EM-1 will do what I want with BIF, Motorcycle racing and my other action photography, with much fewer limitations

(All this using M4/3rds lenses of course as I have no 4/3rds lenses in my collection)

birdboy
11th November 2013, 02:25 PM
Are you using the SWD 50-200 ? because I found it "hunting" lots on the E-5 but then I was rubbish with that combo :rolleyes:

I have no idea where you read "its as good with m43 lens as on E-5" because they are such very different systems :eek: For me, I did not expect the highest level of IQ compatibility - hence sold my 50-200 Mk 1 and Mk2 etc glass :( ... I did have moments of wishing I had not :(

BUT the benefits of the 75-300 are inestimable :D *chr

I asked about "other settings" you used, as this is technically a completely different system - and I have learned that SETTINGS are critical and use those recommended by the Pros :) I have posted them on here for all to see/use etc.,

Some say "the original OP does not know what they are talking about ..." :rolleyes: BUT I am getting FAB results which makes me ecstatic with this camera :D so good I got a second for backup *chr

Yes I was using the swd version of the 50-200mm. I have had occasion when it hunted for me as well but I found that if I kept the focus at infinity before firing away it consistently hit focus quickly.

That's not my quote. The point I was making, within the first few weeks of having the E-M1, was that as far as C-AF with 43 glass is concerned (pdaf technology matched i.e separate focus sensor verse pdaf on main sensor) the E5 is much better.

Initially I was surprised that you had got rid of your 50-200mm but having put a 70-300mm ED (FT) on the E-M1 the balance is really good as is the IQ.

With the exception of C-AF performance the 50-200 f2.8/3.5 is still a stunner (do not forget 200mm at f3.5 is a fast lens) of a lens which in S-AF gives excellent IQ on the E-M1.

I have tried many different settings with varying results. At the end of the day I have come to the conclusion that it is down to the available light on the day that dictates IQ as long as the settings are somewhere near.

I am pleased to hear that you are ecstatic :rolleyes: with your new equipment:D I am very interested to see the 40-150mm f2.8 when it arrives as I think that promises to be a game changer for C-AF with the E-M1*chr

Chevvyf1
11th November 2013, 03:33 PM
Yes I was using the swd version of the 50-200mm. I have had occasion when it hunted for me as well but I found that if I kept the focus at infinity before firing away it consistently hit focus quickly.

That's not my quote. The point I was making, within the first few weeks of having the E-M1, was that as far as C-AF with 43 glass is concerned (pdaf technology matched i.e separate focus sensor verse pdaf on main sensor) the E5 is much better.

Initially I was surprised that you had got rid of your 50-200mm but having put a 70-300mm ED (FT) on the E-M1 the balance is really good as is the IQ.

With the exception of C-AF performance the 50-200 f2.8/3.5 is still a stunner (do not forget 200mm at f3.5 is a fast lens) of a lens which in S-AF gives excellent IQ on the E-M1.

I have tried many different settings with varying results. At the end of the day I have come to the conclusion that it is down to the available light on the day that dictates IQ as long as the settings are somewhere near.

I am pleased to hear that you are ecstatic :rolleyes: with your new equipment:D I am very interested to see the 40-150mm f2.8 when it arrives as I think that promises to be a game changer for C-AF with the E-M1*chr

I fear your problems experienced are as a result of " ... I kept the focus at infinity before firing away ... " maybe because of page 27 of the manual states ...

"Cautions
* when using FT system lens, the range within which AF is possible decreases, if you touch the screen outside of the possible range, the camera shoots without using AF. "

Ulfric M Douglas
11th November 2013, 06:49 PM
... In the end I adopted a half blind mode, that is take the first frame hold down the shutter ignore whats on the EVF and track the bird blind as it were.
Buy a "red-dot sight" and use that : potentially even more helpful for an EVF-camera than OVF.
(Not speaking from experience, just what I've seen achieved on various forums)

If I was even remotely interested in photographing these rubbbish creatures as they flit aimlessly across the sky : I'd get a red-dot sight and an E-M1
:P
Is there a tongue smiley here?

David Morison
11th November 2013, 07:04 PM
Buy a "red-dot sight" and use that : potentially even more helpful for an EVF-camera than OVF.
(Not speaking from experience, just what I've seen achieved on various forums)

If I was even remotely interested in photographing these rubbbish creatures as they flit aimlessly across the sky : I'd get a red-dot sight and an E-M1
:P
Is there a tongue smiley here?

Ooh you are a one!

Chevvyf1
11th November 2013, 07:17 PM
Ooh you are a one!

As it happens, Nick just got down from the loft the residue of his "shooting items" to eBay and among them ... a red dot laser light sight :) :D

Phill D
11th November 2013, 08:59 PM
I'd be very interested in your trials with that red dot sight Chevvy as there was a Panasonic compact camera user on another forum I used to frequent who used to do wonders with his and I'd often thought about getting one.