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David Morison
7th October 2013, 06:12 AM
Does IBIS age or need running in?

When I first got my E5 like some others on this forum I had some difficulties with IBIS generated blur. We are told that IBIS is for slower shutter speeds and can cause conflict when higher speeds are used on static subjects - this all makes sense. A lot of photography I do with wildlife sometimes necessitates a faster shutter speed to freeze subject movement but also IBIS to enable me to get the AF point accurately on target with longer lenses, even using a monopod/tripod. This often meant a lower keeper rate due to IBIS blur, which is something I just had to accept.

Moving from the E5 to the new E-M5 made me realise that I hadn't experienced IBIS problems with faster shutter speeds for some time but it now started all over again - so maybe the IBIS needs running-in?

The same phenomenon has now occurred with the E-M1! As I still have the E-M5 I can now do a direct comparison. With the same lens, 75-300mm at 300, the same SD card and the same settings I can see that the E-M1 at 1/320th sec. shows IBIS blur whereas the E-M5 does not, and it once used to do just that. The E-M1 IBIS is fine at 1/60th. With my Panasonic Leica 14-150mm I am back to getting better results at the long end using the in-lens OIS than the IBIS, which is what I once needed to do when the E-M5 was new.

This leads me to the conclusion that Olympus IBIS ages or needs running-in - maybe in a year's time I may be posting here to confirm this.

Any thoughts?

David

OlyPaul
7th October 2013, 06:26 AM
Or maybe this could have something to do with it David and passed down to the E-M1, and getting used to/mastering the shutter button had something to do with your results

Sadly, the biggest problem we've had with the E-P5 is something that's supposed to be counteracted by one of its biggest strengths - its five-axis image stabilization system.

We've found that when examining our images closely, many are visibly shaken, showing a distinct double-image which is almost perfectly vertically displaced (when the camera is in landscape orientation). The issue is most prevalent at shutter speeds between 1/80th and 1/250th of a second, and most obviously visible when using short telephoto lenses (~100mm equivalent). It's also far more visible with the E-P5 than the E-M5 shot with the same settings. Unfortunately, the camera's Auto ISO system will generally use 1/equivalent focal length as its minimum shutter speed, greatly increasingly the likelihood that you'll use these shutter speeds with such lenses.



From this it seems likely that the camera, while able to correct the continuous, high frequency, low amplitude shake that comes from hand-holding (and crucially that CIPA's standards test), isn't correctly compensating for the initial low frequency, high amplitude motion of the shutter press. Perhaps the most interesting observation is that shake is visibly reduced when using the touchscreen shutter, which gives some sort of workaround for hand-held shooting.

Of course taking two identical shots with one using shutter delay would prove this, something DPR did not do.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympus-pen-e-p5/13

David Morison
7th October 2013, 07:05 AM
So it could be that my shutter finger needs running in with a new camera? However I have never had an issue with my Canon 7D, neither it or the lenses I use have IS, and it is no heavier than my E5 outfit. I'll try using a little Anti-shock to see if that makes a difference.

Thanks

David

Alpha1
7th October 2013, 07:18 AM
David
Were you using the auto IBIS setting with the mZuiko 75-300? I have found exactly the same thing with the same lens at anything over the 250mm setting. It is just fine at the wider end though.
I have noted that there is a note printed on the Auto IBIS setting in menu of "focal length 15mm" but no way of adjusting this figure. I am wondering if this is the problem?

bilbo
7th October 2013, 09:11 AM
...even using a monopod/tripod.
IS shouldn't be used when using a tripod. That can cause problems in itself.

Alpha1
7th October 2013, 12:11 PM
IS shouldn't be used when using a tripod. That can cause problems in itself.

I wasn't using a tripod......I rarely do!

bilbo
7th October 2013, 12:16 PM
I wasn't using a tripod......I rarely do!David was.

bassman
7th October 2013, 08:31 PM
A lot of photography I do with wildlife sometimes necessitates a faster shutter speed to freeze subject movement but also IBIS to enable me to get the AF point accurately on target with longer lenses, even using a monopod/tripod.

Comment from David's initial thread and exactly the same thing has been going through my mind. Not only shooting moving subjects but also combating camera shake from using longer focal length lenses. If it was possible, I'd love to see a feature added that would maintain IS up to the point of the actual exposure, disabling at that moment to allow the set shutter speed to do it's job.

Ross the fiddler
7th October 2013, 11:36 PM
From earlier IS systems such as the E30, there were occasions that mattered how the camera was held & I did an experiment to that effect. When I hand held the camera freely the IS performed as it was designed but if I had inadvertently lent my elbows on a table in front of me then I ended up getting vertical blur. The E-M5 & E-M1 shouldn't respond the same way (as much), but it still may be worth considering when using it.

bredman
8th October 2013, 01:35 AM
Is this what some call shutter shock. It seems to come up in discussions with common references to the 75-300 at the long end.

http://cameraergonomics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/micro-43-shutter-shock-revisited-omd-em.html

I've never used the anti shock function but i have just turned it to ON, which adds extra options to the SCP or LCP enabling me to easily use it or not. Will anti shock make any difference here?

Ross the fiddler
8th October 2013, 07:16 AM
Is this what some call shutter shock. It seems to come up in discussions with common references to the 75-300 at the long end.

http://cameraergonomics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/micro-43-shutter-shock-revisited-omd-em.html

I've never used the anti shock function but i have just turned it to ON, which adds extra options to the SCP or LCP enabling me to easily use it or not. Will anti shock make any difference here?

It can certainly help if any shutter shock was occurring. For example, taking a shot of the moon with it on can ensure less risk of blur from initially shutter (closing &) opening. It is easier to access if a function button is set for Drive Mode & I have one of the 4 way navigator keys (down arrow) set for it (by having the 4 way keys set to Direct Functions).

brian1208
8th October 2013, 07:27 AM
I tend to think of "anti-shock" as being the same as "mirror lock-up" on my DSLR and use it in the same way

David Morison
8th October 2013, 07:40 AM
Thanks all. The main issue is that what appears to be IBIS blur at higher shutter speeds tends to improve with time. So is this my learning to use a new camera or does the IBIS itself change. I have tried Anti-shock and it makes no difference.

David

bilbo
8th October 2013, 07:48 AM
Thanks all. The main issue is that what appears to be IBIS blur at higher shutter speeds tends to improve with time. So is this my learning to use a new camera or does the IBIS itself change. I have tried Anti-shock and it makes no difference.

DavidCould you post comparison images please David? One with the E-M1 and one with the E-M5...

Tordan58
8th October 2013, 07:49 AM
David,

As you already noticed and kindly commented I experience issues with the IBIS on my E-M5 (http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29390).

For me it's the other way around. Experience from past weeks tells me the IBIS has "worn out" rather than "worn in", something seems (and sounds) wrong with the gyro(s). The behavior is more pronounced with longer focal lengths.

For reference the IBIS, since the camera was new and up until the other day allowed me to get sharp pictures with shutter speeds as low as 1/100s using a 600mm lens, sometimes as low as 1/50s (with some luck). Lens on tripod, loose head, hand on camera.

I have sent the camera to Olympus for them to look at and fix, will keep you posted.

David Morison
8th October 2013, 12:24 PM
From earlier IS systems such as the E30, there were occasions that mattered how the camera was held & I did an experiment to that effect. When I hand held the camera freely the IS performed as it was designed but if I had inadvertently lent my elbows on a table in front of me then I ended up getting vertical blur. The E-M5 & E-M1 shouldn't respond the same way (as much), but it still may be worth considering when using it.

Ross,
I know this problem as I have a Canon 7D with 400mm lens and no IS so I have to hold it very steady, with the E-M5 this caused problems with the IBIS originally, but I've now conquered that. However the techniques used with the E-M5 don't work with the E-M1 at the moment, but I will beat it!

David

David Morison
8th October 2013, 12:26 PM
Could you post comparison images please David? One with the E-M1 and one with the E-M5...

I will do but as I am off to foreign parts tonight I don't have time at the moment - but when I get back!

David

David Morison
8th October 2013, 12:29 PM
IS shouldn't be used when using a tripod. That can cause problems in itself.

But it doesn't with the E-M5, although when manual focusing I switch IS of before shooting.

Bikie John
8th October 2013, 01:04 PM
A question - how on earth did you "run in" the IS on earlier models?

I tried it when it was new on the E-3 and E-5 and found that neither worked for my hands. Rather than continue letting it ruin photos I just switched it off and carried on without it. The E-M5 was a different kettle of fish, it worked so well straight out of the box that I leave it switched on. I am a bit mystified how you would use it enough to stabilise its behaviour without losing a lot of the photos that you wanted.

Ciao ... John

bilbo
8th October 2013, 01:10 PM
But it doesn't with the E-M5, although when manual focusing I switch IS of before shooting.OK. I know it does with my E-3 and also that Olympus recommend switching it off on the E-M5 (and the E-3) when using a tripod. (page 49 of the E-M5 manual)

brian1208
8th October 2013, 01:46 PM
Ross,
I know this problem as I have a Canon 7D with 400mm lens and no IS so I have to hold it very steady, with the E-M5 this caused problems with the IBIS originally, but I've now conquered that. However the techniques used with the E-M5 don't work with the E-M1 at the moment, but I will beat it!

David

I don't know if this has any relevance, as I've only had around an hour shooting with my new EM-1, but with the 75-300 on the front it felt much less stable than on the EM-5

I think this is down to the lack of inertial mass of a battery grip (always attached to my EM-5) and I have had to modify my holding / tracking techniques slightly to get more comfortable with the "Naked" EM-1.

Hopefully I will get my grip soon and will be able to confirm this

Off to evaluate several hundred shots from Mudeford Quay, then I will have a better handle on the IBIS (and a lot of other factors)

Ian
8th October 2013, 02:50 PM
It can certainly help if any shutter shock was occurring. For example, taking a shot of the moon with it on can ensure less risk of blur from initially shutter (closing &) opening. It is easier to access if a function button is set for Drive Mode & I have one of the 4 way navigator keys (down arrow) set for it (by having the 4 way keys set to Direct Functions).

Do you really get problems with shock when photographing the moon? The last time I photographed the moon I was using ISO 200 and at f/7.1 the shutter speed was 1/1000th.

Mirrorless cameras have a lot less shock issues than DSLRs because there is no mirror to flap around and the E-M1. E-M5 and E-P5 all have superbly dampened shutter mechanisms so I really doubt that shutter shock is an issue.

Ian

Ian
8th October 2013, 02:54 PM
I really doubt that there is a 'run-in' issue with E-M5/E-M1 and E-P5 IS (these three camera models all use basically the same electromagnetic 'voice coil' induction system). When activated the sensor is basically held in place by a set of magnetic fields that are adjusted by accelerometers inside the camera. There is very little mechanical/friction componentry that might need to 'run in'.

Ian

brian1208
8th October 2013, 03:23 PM
I agree with you Ian, I've had a slightly more detailed run through my images (from which I will put a selection, good and bad up on Flikr) and I am pretty much convinced what I am seeing is the effect of my technique rather than any fault in the camera.

Its hard to see anything mechanical or electronic that would cause what, for me, is a pretty random outcome of sharp or blurred images, one after the other in a sequence

brian1208
8th October 2013, 03:47 PM
I've uploaded a quick selection from my first, 1 hour, test shoot using the Oly 75-300 with IS1 enabled, all hand-held

Here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/75445098@N04/sets/72157636326619725/


As you can see (assuming that my EXIF remained intact) I can get sharp or blurry images at a wide range of shutter speeds (from 1/200th up to 1/1250th) so I am more than ever inclined to blame my technique, not the IIBIS system.

The .JPG images (which these are) seem to need a lot more sharpening in from the base setting (everything = 0 in the camera) than the EM-5 did, but I like the results it is capable of producing, smoother and more detailed were two of my first thoughts when processing

A lot more still needed to complete my evaluation, which I will eventually blog

edit - only one of these shows any real blur, don't know what happened to some of the others. Please come back later to see those (I'm cooking dinner tonight - as my wife has just reminded me, time to stop playing! ;) )

Ian
8th October 2013, 03:51 PM
Olympus responded to some feedback that camera JPEGs sometimes looked over-sharpened with the E-M5 and now the E-M1 will sharpen according to the requirements of specific m.Zuiko lens models, so some will be less sharpened than before.

Ian

I've uploaded a quick selection from my first, 1 hour, test shoot using the Oly 75-300 with IS1 enabled, all hand-held

Here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/organize/?start_tab=new_set

As you can see (assuming that my EXIF remained intact) I can get sharp or blurry images at a wide range of shutter speeds (from 1/200th up to 1/1250th) so I am more than ever inclined to blame my technique, not the IIBIS system.

The .JPG images (which these are) seem to need a lot more sharpening in from the base setting (everything = 0 in the camera) than the EM-5 did, but I like the results it is capable of producing, smoother and more detailed were two of my first thoughts when processing

A lot more still needed to complete my evaluation, which I will eventually blog

Ian
8th October 2013, 03:57 PM
Brian, have looked at the gull shot and it looks over-sharpened to me; there is a distinct hard-edged halo.

This might be something to do with Flickr, maybe, but thought you should know.

Ian

brian1208
8th October 2013, 04:03 PM
Brian, have looked at the gull shot and it looks over-sharpened to me; there is a distinct hard-edged halo.

This might be something to do with Flickr, maybe, but thought you should know.

Ian

Thanks Ian, its possible as these haven't had any time spent on them.

Is it all or one specific one?

(I had read about the lens specific sharpening improvement in the EM-1, nice work Olympus, as with the CA and distortion adjustments :) )

bredman
8th October 2013, 04:25 PM
Is it all or one specific one?

The first of the black-headed gull shots.

bilbo
8th October 2013, 05:11 PM
The first of the black-headed gull shots.I can't see any BHG's...?

bilbo
8th October 2013, 05:16 PM
I can't see any BHG's...?Sorry - wrong thread... :turns away and whistles quietly with hands behind back:

Alpha1
8th October 2013, 06:44 PM
Nice set of images Brian. So come on then what were your camera settings and which lens were you using? I can't see much wrong with these as a first outing.

I am assuming they are from in-camera jpeg rather than processed raw images in which case the camera did a great job with the right man behind the viewfinder! *chr

Alpha1
8th October 2013, 06:57 PM
House and garden chores this afternoon, so I couldn't play until the light had virtually gone!

I changed lenses to the 100-300 Panasonic, set IBIS to S-1 S and proceeded to work my way from single image, sequential images, S-AF and C-AF (easy to do now with the button on the on/off lever, spot focus set to smallest frame.

The light was awful at 16.45pm , light rain but.....bingo all of the settings worked as expected! Tomorrow, I will do the same with the 75-300 mkll lens.

Anyway for what it's worth this was one of the test images, Olympus raw processed with Adobe RAW. (Latest PS6 update) and 100% crop.

http://www.e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/A080017OlyTest.jpg

brian1208
8th October 2013, 07:51 PM
Nice set of images Brian. So come on then what were your camera settings and which lens were you using? I can't see much wrong with these as a first outing.

I am assuming they are from in-camera jpeg rather than processed raw images in which case the camera did a great job with the right man behind the viewfinder! *chr

Damn - just typed a lengthy and detailed response and wiped the lot with a clumsy finger. Sorry - can't face it again - I'll do it again tomorrow! :(


the key thing is that I have a lot of less good shots to share and need to reshoot this using my preferred settings shutter priority, 1/1250th+ sec speed, f8 ad whatever ISO is necessary


Dave, I've looked at the Flikr images again, if you click on the image it appears in a new page, click on the three white dots bottom left and the full EXIF is shown (thank the lord - I don't need to type it all out again! :D )

Yes, JPGs with the Oly 75-300 mk1, hand-held

more tomorrow

Ian
8th October 2013, 08:01 PM
House and garden chores this afternoon, so I couldn't play until the light had virtually gone!

I changed lenses to the 100-300 Panasonic, set IBIS to S-1 S and proceeded to work my way from single image, sequential images, S-AF and C-AF (easy to do now with the button on the on/off lever, spot focus set to smallest frame.

The light was awful at 16.45pm , light rain but.....bingo all of the settings worked as expected! Tomorrow, I will do the same with the 75-300 mkll lens.

Anyway for what it's worth this was one of the test images, Olympus raw processed with Adobe RAW. (Latest PS6 update) and 100% crop.

http://www.e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/A080017OlyTest.jpg

You forgot to mention ISO 5000 :)

Ian

Ross the fiddler
8th October 2013, 09:16 PM
Do you really get problems with shock when photographing the moon? The last time I photographed the moon I was using ISO 200 and at f/7.1 the shutter speed was 1/1000th.

Mirrorless cameras have a lot less shock issues than DSLRs because there is no mirror to flap around and the E-M1. E-M5 and E-P5 all have superbly dampened shutter mechanisms so I really doubt that shutter shock is an issue.

Ian

Not normally, but last night's setting quarter moon was needing around 1/60 to 1/80 sec. at ISO 200 & I needed to go to ISO 400 to get a shutter speed of 1/200 sec. & I also used a 1/2 sec. shutter delay. If the subject isn't moving then it (antishock setting) is just another area that can help ensure a sharper image, so why not use it? ;)

brian1208
8th October 2013, 09:32 PM
I've had a chance to wander through some of my BIF shots in a bit more detail, processing the RAW files. I'm getting the distinct impression that my apparent problems came back directly to my not using my preferred shutter speed settings.

where I had kept the shutter speed up toward my 1/1250th minimum (in the 1/640th to 1/1000th sec range) I was getting some reasonably consistent results

Here are a few of them, processed down to 1000 pixs on the long side or 800pix on the vertical for web use (not the best to make any definitive observations on)

I'm looking forward to having a shoot with the "proper" settings as I have high hopes for this body, based on my current impressions I think it is focusing faster / better than the EM-5 with this lens.

We shall see ;)

http://imagesfromnature.foliopic.com/images/sites/21/gallery/original/gull-with-is200-f7-2-at-1-1000th-sec_1381267597.jpg

http://imagesfromnature.foliopic.com/images/sites/21/gallery/original/gull-with-is200-f7-2-at-1-1000th-v2-sec_1381267598.jpg

http://imagesfromnature.foliopic.com/images/sites/21/gallery/original/gulls-with-iso200-1-640th-sec_1381267600.jpg

Alpha1
9th October 2013, 08:08 AM
Thank you Brian.

Just as with the E-M5, I just think it is essential to share info in our joint learning curve! ;)

Ian

Thanks for adding the ISO info, I knew it was fairly dark! In fact with either the E-M5 or the E-M1 I rarely worry about ISO. :cool:

Not so long ago, I would restrict my cameras ISO from climbing above 400! With my old Leica R9/DMR it was 200!

The purpose of this test however was to learn how to use the changed IBIS with S-AF, C-AF and Sequential shutter modes and all were well with this lens at full zoom EFL 600mm at ISO 5000.

I will try again it today with the 73-300ll.

brian1208
9th October 2013, 08:13 AM
Just as with the E-M5, I just think it is essential to share info in our joint learning curve!

that's one of the things I like about this site, open and positive sharing of ideas and info with none of the back-biting that seems to be so common elsewhere

Well done Ian and others for making it so

(I'm off to the Quay again today, I hope, to give the EM-1 a work out with the panny 35-100 and oly 40-150, mainly in Shutter Priority)

Got to get to grips with this thing's foibles before my shoot at Thruxton on Saturday :D

Grumpy Hec
9th October 2013, 11:37 AM
Dead right. When mine arrives I will have all manner of "silly" questions I suspect as I'm going from an E3 rather than an EM-5.

I'd ask all to bear with me please and I'll try not to be so grumpy as I've been of late *yes

Cheers

Hec

StephenL
9th October 2013, 12:24 PM
Dead right. When mine arrives I will have all manner of "silly" questions I suspect as I'm going from an E3 rather than an EM-5.


Cheers

Hec
I don't know that owning an E-M5 will be that much of an advantage. From reading the manual (which is like getting dressed in the dark) without actually holding the camera, and the limited time I have held the thing, there are more differences than similarities, and for me at least confusion will reign.

brian1208
9th October 2013, 01:59 PM
I had the chance for another session on the Quay before lunch, using my Panasonic 35-100 and Olympus 40-150, specifically to see if I was experiencing IBIS problems and I think my answer is not with these two lenses.

I set up in my usual BIF mode: Shutter priority with 1/1250th sec, auto ISO, exposure compensation as needed (not very careful with this as I was more interested in just banging out the shots as the birds came by, so quite a lot of under-exposed shots against a bright sky)

Conditions varied from bright blue to heavy cloud cover so it was quite a work-out

observations (too early for conclusions :) )

- I estimate I was getting around 60% good focus, more when the birds were >30% of frame) which is more or less on a par with my best EM-5 results after a year or so of practise

- focus acquisition using SAF was much faster (subjectively) than with the EM-5, it seemed to snap on and hold focus much easier and hold it more consistently

- I'm still not convinced about CAF for this subject

- I saw less than 1% "IBIS shake" type images (out of 540+) and I reckon they were probably down to my technique (I do want the battery grip to stabilise me, I find the very low inertia of these light lens / camera combos really difficult after my canon L's on the 7D / 5D)

- I like using the camera a lot, knobs and dials just feel better to operate (more subjectivity :) )

I'll put some more images up in my portfolio later http://imagesfromnature.foliopic.com/gallery/olympus-em-1-first-test-images-19856

but in the meantime here is a grabbed sequence of three shots of a gull that suddenly decided to take off in front of me (approx 40% crops from original)

http://imagesfromnature.foliopic.com/images/sites/21/gallery/original/gull-take-off-1-f5-3--1-1250th-sec-110mm-40-150_1381326111.jpg

http://imagesfromnature.foliopic.com/images/sites/21/gallery/original/gull-take-off-1-f5-3--2-1-1250th-sec-110mm-40-150_1381326112.jpg

http://imagesfromnature.foliopic.com/images/sites/21/gallery/original/gull-take-off-1-f5-3--3-1-1250th-sec-110mm-40-150_1381326114.jpg

wellyboot
9th October 2013, 02:13 PM
Those three images look excellent Brian!
So would your conclusion be that there may be a problem with IBIS and the 75-300mm at the longer end, or do you think any problem there is could be resolved by a change of technique, and practice?
Probably a difficult question to answer, but the 75-300mm is probably my most used lens, so I don't want to splash out on the E-M1 if I would get better results with my E-M5 75-300mm combo.
Many thanks

brian1208
9th October 2013, 02:25 PM
I think its all down to technique in my case but hope to have the chance to confirm that later on either this week or next.

I'm going to try shooting with my monopod attached (closed) to put a bit of inertial mass at the base, in place of my awaited battery grip and suspect that will enable me to get back to my EM-5 results (or better) with the 75-300 on the EM-1

Don't forget I'm a sample of one so you can't take my observations as gospel, just one man's experiences :)

The images ain't too bad are they (but dreadful exposure control, look at the burn-out - ouch! :eek: )

wellyboot
9th October 2013, 03:31 PM
Thank you Brian! You may be a sample of one, but I aspire to get results like you, and value your judgement!

OM USer
9th October 2013, 04:05 PM
...using my Panasonic 35-100 and Olympus 40-150...

Fantastic shots, Brian. I can't see any EXIF information so which of the 2 lenses and what was the focal length for yoir gull shots?

I set up in my usual BIF mode: Shutter priority with 1/1250th sec, auto ISO, exposure compensation as needed

1/1250 is pretty high for these dismal days. What ISO was auto-selected and what upper limit have you put on your auto ISO selection?

brian1208
9th October 2013, 04:21 PM
these bits of software keep stripping out the EXIF, sorry.

These three were shot with the 40-150 at 116mm with ISO 200 - 250, f5.3 9 under exposed by 0.13 stop (based on the LR5 adjustment of exposure needed)

I have ISO1600 set as the upper limit for auto ISO

Ian
9th October 2013, 04:27 PM
these bits of software keep stripping out the EXIF, sorry.

These three were shot with the 40-150 at 116mm with ISO 200 - 250, f5.3 9 under exposed by 0.13 stop (based on the LR5 adjustment of exposure needed)

I have ISO1600 set as the upper limit for auto ISO

What software does that? Maybe we can help preserve your exif data...

Ian

brian1208
9th October 2013, 04:37 PM
thanks Ian, its my own fault, to save work and keep the image quality up I have got in the habit of, where possible, copying the full res image from my Website galley and pasting it here as an [img] .

Its the copy step that seems to remove the EXIF info, which I put into the title of the image (and my website it won't let me copy that! :confused:)

OM USer
9th October 2013, 07:32 PM
Thanks for responding Brian,

...These three were shot with the 40-150 at 116mm with ISO 200 - 250, f5.3 9 under exposed by 0.13 stop

1/1250th & f5.3 sec at ISO 200/250 is pretty good lighting even if the results are a tad underexposed. Its early days but do you think the camera will perform equally well at 300mm and in poorer light when the total amount of light hitting the sensor is much reduced?

brian1208
9th October 2013, 09:18 PM
Thanks for responding Brian,



1/1250th & f5.3 sec at ISO 200/250 is pretty good lighting even if the results are a tad underexposed. Its early days but do you think the camera will perform equally well at 300mm and in poorer light when the total amount of light hitting the sensor is much reduced?


I'll let you know when I get the chance to try it out (pretty soon looking at the forecast! :) )

Gut reaction tells me not but I don't trust that, only observable results count for me (its me training as an R&D scientist - even though I'm retired I still believe data rule *chr )

brian1208
9th October 2013, 09:48 PM
A one more from this morning, still with the 40-150 at 115mm FL, 1/1250th sec, ISO 200 f5.3

This is a distant shot where the image represent less than 20% of the original frame

It locked on easily and held focus for a couple of shots as the bird turned away (after which I stopped shooting, rather than the camera losing focus)

http://imagesfromnature.foliopic.com/images/sites/21/gallery/original/gull-40-150-at-115mm-with-f56--1-250th-sec-isoo-200_1381354875.jpg

Alpha1
10th October 2013, 11:58 AM
Brian

Would you mind sharing your IBIS and AF frame size for this equally fantastic shot?

We all owe you one of these! *chr

Ps spent quite a bit of time at Highcliffe recently organising a large family "do"
at the Castle. No time for photography unfortunately!

brian1208
10th October 2013, 02:03 PM
IBIS is in mode 1 and the bulk of these were single point, small or group of 9, both in the centre.

I've just come back from another hour, same place, using only the 75-300 mk1 so will review, analyse and post my thoughts here later

photo_owl
10th October 2013, 02:22 PM
the key thing is that I have a lot of less good shots to share and need to reshoot this using my preferred settings shutter priority, 1/1250th+ sec speed, f8 ad whatever ISO is necessary




you will find this easier in practice using M, setting you required shutter speed and aperture and switch on Auto ISO. The only downside is that you can't use exposure compensation shooting this way - and for shooting small birds against a sky this may not make it the easy option it is for many other applications where you know both the shutter speed and aperture you need (want) before hand!

brian1208
10th October 2013, 03:23 PM
you will find this easier in practice using M,

indeed yes, so long as the lighting conditions remain fairly stable I will frequently use this mode, using shutter speed to fine tune the exposure.

In these trials I specifically wanted to use Shutter Priority as the conditions were varying enormously, probably 20+/- Ev as one moment I'm shooting almost directly into the sun and the next, shooting into the shade of the conifers (in other words, I'm pushing the limits way beyond those I would normally even consider BIF shooting :) )

Out of interest, I've just checked the auto ISO range the camera chose for the same shutter speed and its varied from 200 - 1000 with the aperture varying from wide open to f9 at the same time, like I said - a lot of variation in the light levels :)

brian1208
10th October 2013, 03:29 PM
Back to my first sweep through my images, shot today, under the widely varying light as above.

I'm a bit confused at the moment as, even with my monopod attached as a pendant inertial mass, I'm seeing a lot of apparently focused but blurred (movement blur) shots - more than I would normally expect.

I did notice that even with IS on I do seem to be wavering more when focusing at long range with FL in the 200 - 300mm band

Yet, when I manage to get a stable hold on the system the results are sharp and well focused

As this is contrasting with my shoot yesterday going up to 150mm I am wondering whether it is my technique, particularly as there is not a consistent pattern of behaviour.

Hmm, more analysis needed here but I may post some pics later

update - I've spent more time analysing the "blurred" images in in most (but not all) cases its a case of miss-focus. Its not always apparent against a bland sky but where I have a background with detail (sea, lobster pot a tip of another wing in frame etc) I can see that the AF has focused on that, not the subject. In some cases its less than a couple of foot out but enough to cause noticeable blur

Now I've sorted that I thought I would start another thread specifically on my BIF experiences, as some of you have expressed an interest in these

(Feel free to tell me to shut up if I'm over-doing it please)

Alpha1
10th October 2013, 06:35 PM
Have you tried Auto Ibis yet Brian? I would be interested in your experiences if you have tried it with the m zuiko 75-300.

brian1208
10th October 2013, 06:38 PM
I gave it a quick go today Dave, but I can't say I noticed anything untoward or special about it for the type of "Oh, there's a bird, grab a shot" type work I was doing, so I switched back to IS1, my standard setting

David Morison
21st October 2013, 07:39 AM
I've just got round to examining some test images I shot to support the IBIS problem I had been having initially with the E-M1, having been away for a while with no access to a computer has delayed things. As I said I have the impression that the IBIS needs to be "run in" on the E-M1 and in my experience on the E5 and E-M5. With all three cameras the initial period from new gave inferior images using IBIS but after a while this slowly resolved itself. I had this with the E5 and E-M5 and now the E-M1 seems to have sorted itself out. I was surprised when I first used the E-M1 that the IBIS created problems as with the E-M5 I could leave it on all the time (except on tripod) without any issues, and then I remembered the problems I had when the camera was new. There have been several posts on here in the past that referred to this problem so I know it is not just in my imagination.

Here are two handheld test images to illustrate my early findings. The first is A priority with IBIS on and shows the familiar vertical image blur that the IBIS created, the second is S priority at faster shutter speed (and subsequent ISO) which shows a well focused image. Both were taken from a distance of about 1 km with the 75-300mm and are 100% cropped.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/PA131531.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/66794)

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/PA131532.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/66795)

These are not just one-offs, they are part of a series of around 80 that I took all with very similar results.

Now however the IBIS is now working as it should and at all shutter speeds so it has appeared to have been "run in" and I have not changed my technique at all since first encountering the problem.

Any Comments?

David

bredman
21st October 2013, 08:02 AM
I've not noticed any issues myself. Lucky perhaps, then again i've only shot a few bursts here and there with the 75-300, maybe about 40 shots. The furthest object is the heron shot where the bird was about 60-70 yards, shot with the lens at 200mm in fading light, and they were all acceptably sharp. It's in Foto Fair, slipping away into the past. I do have a couple from last night to upload later. For my E-M1 it was an unresponsive touchscreen that needed 'bedding in'.

FWIW i haven't yet had a lock up either.

Chevvyf1
26th October 2013, 11:09 AM
HUGE Thanks to all contributing here *chr *chr *chr

This morning I had blackouts, on half depression focus of small birds on feeders less than 2m FL (outside bedroom window) :eek: 60 lens - E-5 would have captured great images!

No time to upload or review more as have to do a family support today :(

jamsa
26th October 2013, 01:08 PM
There are a lot more EM1 users not members of this or any other forum who possibly are having problems similar to those that are members on here with the EM1...
I am sorry to say that no matter how loyal I have been to Olympus in the past I cannot buy a camera that when I want to take a picture it Doesn't!
Either Olympus should suspend the distribution to avoid any further disappointed buyers or at least "come clean" and I would even go so far as say .......Please recall the cameras that are already in use so that thorough testing and repairs and firmware checks or updates can be implemented before too much damage is done to the reputation of such a historically quality brand.

I think I will try to get a refund and cancel my order and wait however long it takes to be sure that the EM-1 is reliable or until I have found suitable alternative camera equipment, which ever comes first. My wife will not let me spend £1949 on something that will cause me so much grief as the photographs I like to take quite often give one opportunity that will never happen again.

Phill D
26th October 2013, 02:35 PM
No problems here yet either except not enough time to play with it.

andym
26th October 2013, 03:04 PM
I can't find any mention of these problem on other forums, I've not got a problem. I feel there may be one or two faulty cameras out there.

I wouldn't over react yet. :eek::eek::eek:

jamsa
26th October 2013, 03:43 PM
Thanks Andy, I suspect that there are more then one or two and a small percentage is too many, but considering the few buyers that are here it would be worrying if scaled up to reflect the actual numbers sold. If quality control at production is at fault, design, firmware, supplier parts or whatever, a professional camera shouldn't be like this.
If all the reviews are complementary and persuasive enough to sell to the end user then it must be sold with the expectations of being reliable and without "working faults".
NOTE : It's far better to be able to raise concerns on a limited exposed forum than on Facebook etc so please don't think I am being negative just to be negative... I want so much for the EM1 to be like all my other cameras I have ever had, to be reliable and offer many years of continuous use. I have made huge sacrifices in order afford to purchase an EM1 but then cannot expect to have to send it off for repair, or to have it stop working when "that one" image is in the frame.

Chevvyf1
26th October 2013, 06:00 PM
Thanks Andy, I suspect that there are more then one or two and a small percentage is too many, but considering the few buyers that are here it would be worrying if scaled up to reflect the actual numbers sold. If quality control at production is at fault, design, firmware, supplier parts or whatever, a professional camera shouldn't be like this.
If all the reviews are complementary and persuasive enough to sell to the end user then it must be sold with the expectations of being reliable and without "working faults".
NOTE : It's far better to be able to raise concerns on a limited exposed forum than on Facebook etc so please don't think I am being negative just to be negative... I want so much for the EM1 to be like all my other cameras I have ever had, to be reliable and offer many years of continuous use. I have made huge sacrifices in order afford to purchase an EM1 but then cannot expect to have to send it off for repair, or to have it stop working when "that one" image is in the frame.


ACTUALLY, a Fb page is a good idea ... then we may find the REAL number of problems ? :D

Gwyver
26th October 2013, 06:47 PM
In late 2007, soon after the E3 was launched it became apparent that a small number of the first production batch of the renowned 12-60 SWD lens had been manufactured with an excess of lubricating oil and this was causing a problem. As soon as this became known Olympus launched a worldwide program so that anybody owning a lens within a specific serial number range could return it to Olympus FOC for inspection & rework if required (within a timescale lasting 2 years).

Having been an Olympus camera user since the early days of the original OM1, I am confident that if there is found to be a systemic problem with the EM1 IBIS (or anything any other component) Olympus will provide a similar resolution programme if more than a f/w update is involved.

That said, I think this thread would be more useful (especially for anybody from Olympus trying to sort the wheat from the chaff and determine what the actual problem might be) if the comments were restricted to only those folk who are in possession of this camera and are actually experiencing this type of problem.

Tordan58
26th October 2013, 06:52 PM
Does IBIS age or need running in?

... // snipped
This leads me to the conclusion that Olympus IBIS ages or needs running-in - maybe in a year's time I may be posting here to confirm this.

Any thoughts?

David
My experience of the 5-axis IBIS is... less than positive.

When my EM-5 IBIS did work it did a great job and did not need any run-in.

The first IBIS became dysfunctional after 3 to 4 months. The second one broke after less than 10 shots fired, after being replaced and checked by Olympus according to the report from the workshop.

Bad luck, two lemons in a row?

No, I believe there is a fundamental issue with this 5-axis IBIS, either poor quality control/poor design/poor components or inadequate competence at Olympus manufacturing/service.

David M
26th October 2013, 07:40 PM
It took Olympus a long time to acknowledge the battery drain issue with early OM4 bodies. I had to publicly embarrass them before they'd look at mine. Of course, in those days there was no internet for people to complain on.

brian1208
26th October 2013, 08:49 PM
In their defence I must say the Chris Dale took my problem seriously from day 1

And, I think this observation by Chris Gwyver is spot on,

That said, I think this thread would be more useful (especially for anybody from Olympus trying to sort the wheat from the chaff and determine what the actual problem might be) if the comments were restricted to only those folk who are in possession of this camera and are actually experiencing this type of problem.

I know that Olympus support are monitoring the site and any useful data we can provide will help them track down the root causes of the various problems we are experiencing

jamsa
26th October 2013, 09:20 PM
I agree but suspend sales until they know for sure the percentage of faulted cameras perhaps and some honesty before more bridges are burnt

brian1208
27th October 2013, 12:48 PM
:)Just to remind myself again how well IBIS can work, this time on my trusty EM-5, sat on a coach returning from my shoot at Scotney Castle, doing about 20mph and bored, so I got out the EM-5 + 35-100 at f2.8, ISO1600 for 1/125th sec at 100mm through the windscreen from 3 rows back:

http://imagesfromnature.foliopic.com/images/sites/21/gallery/original/night-drive-test-em-5-no-crop_1382877645.jpg

and then a tight crop


http://imagesfromnature.foliopic.com/images/sites/21/gallery/original/night-drive-test-em-5-crop_1382877644.jpg

Its things like this that remind me why I like the OM-D series camera

Stu
27th October 2013, 05:25 PM
The joys of the M27!

Stu
27th October 2013, 05:53 PM
A very good test source for the E-M1 seems to be bicycles because of their spoked wheels. It is nice and easy to see the second spokes when they appear.

raichea
27th October 2013, 06:20 PM
....I suspect that there are more then one or two and a small percentage is too many, but considering the few buyers that are here it would be worrying if scaled up to reflect the actual numbers sold. If quality control at production is at fault, design, firmware, supplier parts or whatever, a professional camera shouldn't be like this.
It's a statistics game - assuming there is no fundamental design flaw, if you ship enough volume, some poor soul will buy a camera rated for 150,000 shutter operations and have it fail far sooner than that.

Expecting that no-one will have a failure soon after purchase is an unrealistic view. Any production line has a yield rate... the percentage of units that pass final test/inspection before boxing and shipping. The manufacturer's quality management department is there to maximise this number, as failing units have to go back for rework = .

All products are then subject to "bathtub curve" failure - see Bathtub curve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The mfr. usually tries to shake out the early failures so that purchasers only see the intrinsic failure rate during the normal life of the product, with failures due to wear increasing those numbers towards the end of life. An intrinsic failure rate of 1 or 2% is not uncommon - component quality, mfring process and many other factors affect it. Driving that number down can get very expensive and the mfr. has to balance off that cost against the warranty costs that will be incurred.

jamsa
27th October 2013, 06:45 PM
So basically if you are an Existing forum user you have a higherchance of finding the duds! ;-) take this comment with a pinch of salt....and so the answer is to not be a member of a forum..... Lol

brian1208
27th October 2013, 06:50 PM
Stu, last night it was much better on the M27 than it had been on the M25, where it was hurling it down, yet again!

brian1208
27th October 2013, 06:59 PM
rachea, do you think I can apply for a grant from the Olympus QA dept. for carrying out accelerated testing to destruction for them then? :P

(reminds me of an old Statisticians joke, a traveller was stopped at the airport security gate when he was found to be carrying a bomb in his bag. When asked to explain he said, I'm a statistician and know that the odds of someone carrying a bomb on a plane are around ten thousand to one, whereas the odds of two strangers each carrying bombs on the same plane are 10 million to one. wouldn't you carry a bomb yourself to improve the odds that much when travelling these days? :D )

raichea
27th October 2013, 07:06 PM
rachea, do you think I can apply for a grant from the Olympus QA dept. for carrying out accelerated testing to destruction for them then? :P
Worth a shot but, given Olympus' recent track record for communication, I'm not sure you'd get a response :rolleyes:.