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Xenon
17th September 2013, 07:57 AM
I pre-ordered the E-M1, more as an act of faith, as there is inevitably a lack of real reviews that offer real hands-on experience as yet.

I'm wondering if there is going to be any REAL benefit for someone like me not possessing any 4/3 lenses?

It seems obvious that anyone with 4/3 lenses now has a "vehicle" to use them, or an upgrade route from the E-5, so no problem choosing....assuming they want a newer body.

I'm still wondering if the C-AF will offer a substantial improvement for M4/3 lenses, or whether I'd be better getting a DSLR to cover the growing interest I have in BIF and sport, or whether the E-M1 WILL offer me enough??

Ian replied to me in another thread suggesting that Olympus themselves feel the E-M1 should be on a par with the Nikon 7100, which would be enough for my needs, but then, I guess, they are going to say that aren't they?

I would like to see someone review the E-M1 with some rapid action, so we can all see just how good it actually is, not that I'm expecting 7D performance, although that would be nice :)

Damian McGillicuddy was reputedly on the Isle of Man doing some action reviews, but like many others he seems to have gone quiet!

Otherwise without any firm confirmation, as tempting as the new model is, maybe I should save my pennies?

Chevvyf1
17th September 2013, 08:14 AM
I pre-ordered the E-M1, more as an act of faith, as there is inevitably a lack of real reviews that offer real hands-on experience as yet.

I'm wondering if there is going to be any REAL benefit for someone like me not possessing any 4/3 lenses?

It seems obvious that anyone with 4/3 lenses now has a "vehicle" to use them, or an upgrade route from the E-5, so no problem choosing....assuming they want a newer body.

I'm still wondering if the C-AF will offer a substantial improvement for M4/3 lenses, or whether I'd be better getting a DSLR to cover the growing interest I have in BIF and sport, or whether the E-M1 WILL offer me enough??

Ian replied to me in another thread suggesting that Olympus themselves feel the E-M1 should be on a par with the Nikon 7100, which would be enough for my needs, but then, I guess, they are going to say that aren't they?

I would like to see someone review the E-M1 with some rapid action, so we can all see just how good it actually is, not that I'm expecting 7D performance, although that would be nice :)

Damian McGillicuddy was reputedly on the Isle of Man doing some action reviews, but like many others he seems to have gone quiet!

Otherwise without any firm confirmation, as tempting as the new model is, maybe I should save my pennies?


checkout Mein Thein's review he compares it to the D4 and 7100 and it is well ahead :) in his grid/table

pvasc
17th September 2013, 08:19 AM
Damian McGilliguddy has gone quiet I believe because he is on location, and reportedly suffering from man flu. I am hoping this is the delay in his posts, not that the camera isn't performing. Either way he will tell us, eventually. I too am eagerly awaiting the night action shot he mentioned in his last video.

Xenon
17th September 2013, 08:21 AM
Thanks Chevvy, I had read his review in which he says :-

".....With PDAF on sensor, that last bastion of the DSLR is eroding, too. Practically, the D600′s AF system still tracks better than the E-M1; I spent some time shooting traffic and found that the E-M1 would perform similar to or slightly better than the D200 generation of cameras in terms of tracking ability; I think with another iteration or judicious firmware update, the gap will, shrink even further......."

So I'm not sure he feels it is up there with the current mid-range DSLRs in fact.

Xenon
17th September 2013, 08:28 AM
Damian McGilliguddy has gone quiet I believe because he is on location, and reportedly suffering from man flu. I am hoping this is the delay in his posts, not that the camera isn't performing. Either way he will tell us, eventually. I too am eagerly awaiting the night action shot he mentioned in his last video.

Yes, and he's busy with his workshop and ill. He has my sympathies!

I have no doubt I'm jumping the gun slightly, but the dearth of real reviews of action with M4/3 lenses is a slight cause for concern, together with the varying reviewers take on exactly how good C-AF is in reality, and as I said with M4/3 existing lenses in particular.

Is it around the D200 level, the D7100 level or 70D level, or still catching up?

I guess the jury is still out, but some real world testing would be handy! :)

Olybirder
17th September 2013, 08:56 AM
Robin Wong has posted some CAF test shots on his blog (http://robinwong.blogspot.it/2013/09/olympus-om-d-e-m1-review-image.html) and seems quite impressed. I have a feeling that the E-M1 will not perform anywhere as well as the 7D or the top Nikons though. Hopefully it will not be too far behind.

Ron

OlyPaul
17th September 2013, 09:05 AM
Robin Wong has posted some CAF test shots on his blog (http://robinwong.blogspot.it/2013/09/olympus-om-d-e-m1-review-image.html) and seems quite impressed. I have a feeling that the E-M1 will not perform anywhere as well as the 7D or the top Nikons though. Hopefully it will not be too far behind.

Ron

But they are panned shots of a large and not very fast moving subject (moped in heavy traffic) so the predictive af is not really being tested.

I still have not seen anyone testing it's capabilities for fast moving action and bif, I still have reservations on its capability there, although not being subjects I shoot very often it would not bother me . :)

Chevvyf1
17th September 2013, 09:08 AM
Paul I did not see/read that bit you quoted :eek:

http://blog.mingthein.com/2013/09/11/the-2013-olympus-om-d-e-m1-review-2/

Sorry here is the link Val sent to me:) - (I am having a "fluffy day" today ... and forgot it

AS soon as I get mine, I am off nearby BIG Birds and shall see how it performs. A friend has a recently trained Golden Eagle for me to enjoy :)

IF the EM-1 is not up to spec and FAILS IN MY NEEDS - it goes :eek: NO MESSING.

I was quite impressed by the Wong images taken from a car of a man and child on a scooter in heavy crowded streets. BUT whether that bodes well for a bird in the sky ... we shall see :)

Olybirder
17th September 2013, 09:19 AM
But they are panned shots of a large and not very fast moving subject (moped in heavy traffic) so the predictive af is not really being tested.

I still have not seen anyone testing it's capabilities for fast moving action and bif, I still have reservations on its capability there, although not being subjects I shoot very often it would not bother me . :)
I think the rollerblade shots lower down are quite impressive - as far as I can tell from the small size. I know I would have trouble taking them with my E-30, especially with that busy background.

Ron

bilbo
17th September 2013, 09:35 AM
...although not being subjects [Action/BIF] I shoot very often it would not bother me . :)Quite! I've seen quite a few people on here being concerned about BIF but little evidence of that being executed well by them on a regular basis... {hides behind sofa ;)}

brian1208
17th September 2013, 09:37 AM
I can shoot BIF with my EM-5 + 75-300 and 35-100 (but not as easily as with my canon 7D + 70-300 LIS), I just needed to learn a different technique

I'm sure that the inclusion of PDAF will make it easier (but still not as easy as it was with the 7D).

Its good to see that the menu allows tuning of CAF acquisition and sensitivity

(C-AF Lock When [AF Mode] (P. 73) is set to [C-AF], the AF does not adjust to sudden changes in subject distance. Depending on the sensitivity selected, the time it takes for the AF to adjust will change)

this was one of the key factors that made the 7D so effective with BIF so I have hopes for a real improvement over the EM-5.

I hope to be able to let you know soon :D

Ian
17th September 2013, 09:42 AM
Well, a week ago I posted 22 images on my Hands On Preview article using E-M1 with the 75-300 in C-AF photographing BIF. See:

http://fourthirds-user.com/2013/09/olympus_omd_em1_handson_preview.php/a

I don't claim these to be excellent - I am not a practised BIF photographer. But they do show that the camera does work with C-AF (with PDAF) on the E-M1 using a Micro Four Thirds lens. You could not get these results with an E-M5.

Ian

brian1208
17th September 2013, 09:45 AM
thanks for the link Ian, I had missed it before

(I would have a slight debate with you over whether or not the BIF shots could have been got using the EM-5 though http://imagesfromnature.foliopic.com/article/my-experiences-using-the-olympus-om-d-for-shooting-birds-in-flight-4173 ) :)

Xenon
17th September 2013, 09:46 AM
I can shoot BIF with my EM-5 + 75-300 and 35-100 (but not as easily as with my canon 7D + 70-300 LIS), I just needed to learn a different technique

I'm sure that the inclusion of PDAF will make it easier (but still not as easy as it was with the 7D).

Its good to see that the menu allows tuning of CAF acquisition and sensitivity

(C-AF Lock When [AF Mode] (P. 73) is set to [C-AF], the AF does not adjust to sudden changes in subject distance. Depending on the sensitivity selected, the time it takes for the AF to adjust will change)

this was one of the key factors that made the 7D so effective with BIF so I have hopes for a real improvement over the EM-5.

I hope to be able to let you know soon :D


Good points Brian.
I too have achieved some amazing BIFs and IIFs (insects) with the E-M5.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/crux_/9466866644/ as a fairly recent example.

It is possible, and as you say down to practice and technique.
It is far easier with my friend's 7D, and the keeper rate soars with that camera :)

As great opportunities can be rare, it makes sense to have a body and lens combination that gives a better chance of capturing that unique moment, rather than missing it because of poor AF.

It has to be a personal choice, and I, like many, appreciate the smaller package i.e weight and excellent lenses, but better than the E-M5 may not be enough for me....unless it is in at least the same league as the D7100, which is satisfactory, and any shortfall is then down to luck and technique :)

Ian
17th September 2013, 09:58 AM
thanks for the link Ian, I had missed it before

(I would have a slight debate with you over whether or not the BIF shots could have been got using the EM-5 though http://imagesfromnature.foliopic.com/article/my-experiences-using-the-olympus-om-d-for-shooting-birds-in-flight-4173 ) :)

Getting one shot of a distant bird in flight is possible using an E-M5 and 75-300, but very difficult and demands a well-honed technique and a lot of skill and luck. But getting a sequence as the bird flies is nigh on impossible because the AF can't maintain a lock unless the subject is fairly large in the frame and can be tracked very accurately by the photographer.

CDAF can only gauge which way to focus, not by how much. PDAF can, so it can discriminate between subjects that are nearer and further and usually you will be wanting to photograph the subject that is nearer, so a good C-AF system will bias the focusing to the nearer subject and once it has locked it should not need to make wild distance adjustments if focus is temporarily lost. Unfortunately CDAF C-AF will usually lose it very easily.

Also, Micro Four Thirds lenses (apart from the very slow and noisy original Olympus ones) are optimised for focus speed, which is very important for CDAF, but which benefits PDAF too.

I acknowledge that we haven't yet heard from a seasoned BIF expert with time using an E-M1 but that will come and I am confident that the feedback will be positive compared to an E-5 and especially an E-M5. The Canon EOS 7D is an exception and seems to have been designed for BIF and few other cameras out of the Nikon D4/Canon 1D league can compare.

Ian

David Morison
17th September 2013, 10:24 AM
But they are panned shots of a large and not very fast moving subject (moped in heavy traffic) so the predictive af is not really being tested.

I still have not seen anyone testing it's capabilities for fast moving action and bif, I still have reservations on its capability there, although not being subjects I shoot very often it would not bother me . :)

I agree because the E-M5 could do that easily:

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P9012284.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65769)

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P6027414.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65768)

I will be giving my E-M1 a thorough testing for BIF on M4/3 75-300mm lens when I receive it, but although I have high hopes I would not be surprised if I still have the 7D 12 months from now.

David

brian1208
17th September 2013, 10:39 AM
I would not be surprised if I still have the 7D 12 months from now.


if weight isn't a problem and BIF shooting is important to you I would suggest that is the right answer for you

in my case, weight became a problem so that was more important than my love of shooting BIF (the best camera system is the one that is always with you :D )

Its a win : win situation really with all the options available to photographers these days

Chevvyf1
17th September 2013, 10:41 AM
...

I will be giving my E-M1 a thorough testing for BIF on M4/3 75-300mm lens when I receive it, but although I have high hopes I would not be surprised if I still have the 7D 12 months from now.

David

:( Honestly, I hope you sell the 7D

bilbo
17th September 2013, 11:14 AM
:( Honestly, I hope you sell the 7DHave a look at David's pbase gallery and you'll see several reasons why I don't think he will. :)

Ian
17th September 2013, 11:20 AM
David photographs very distant birds which are very small in the frame and much of the time it's for identification purposes only.

For photographing birds that are closer and larger (I'm thinking red kites!) I think an E-M1 with the 75-300 would work well.

Ian

David Morison
17th September 2013, 11:35 AM
:( Honestly, I hope you sell the 7D

Honestly so do I!

David Morison
17th September 2013, 01:32 PM
David photographs very distant birds which are very small in the frame and much of the time it's for identification purposes only.

For photographing birds that are closer and larger (I'm thinking red kites!) I think an E-M1 with the 75-300 would work well.

Ian

An example of a long distance shot is this Hobby, taken hand held with the M4/3 75-300mm on the E-M1 during the Rutland session. Taken from around 300 metres it does demonstrate that the camera can acquire a very small subject at distance. 100% crop, sorry about the quality - I may have done better with a RAW file. This bird would have been impossible to ID with binoculars and with a 'scope I would have needed a tripod.


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P9050403.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65773)

David

birdboy
17th September 2013, 03:51 PM
The problem with BIF is their somewhat unpredictable flying pattern. I would suggest that a better test of the E-M1 CAF would be to take sequential shots of bike racing. They move fast on a predicable racing line (mostly:eek:).

Here's two sequences I took with the E5 last July.
50-200mmswd lens
This was from a sequence of 3 frames FL101mm 1/400s f5.6 ISO100
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/504/P7212506.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65777)

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/504/P7212505.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65776)

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/504/P7212506.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65777)

They were coming towards me in excess of 100mph.

The second sequence was from a burst of 9 frames (two are missing as I probably deleted them because a post was in the frame)

FL200mm 1/400s f5.6 ISO100
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/504/P7212521.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65778)
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/504/P7212522.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65779)
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/504/P7212524.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65780)
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/504/P7212525.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65781)
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/504/P7212527.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65782)
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/504/P7212528.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65783)
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/504/P7212529.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65784)

This second sequence is more challenging because of the focus distractions.

I would really like the E-M1 to improve on this as the first missed focus a bit that may have been me with camera shake as I brought the camera up to take the shots. I have to say that even though I used H sequential rate I not think I get 5fs.

Ian do think that this is possible with the E-M1?

David Morison
17th September 2013, 04:13 PM
[QUOTE=birdboy;250686]The problem with BIF is their somewhat unpredictable flying pattern. I would suggest that a better test of the E-M1 CAF would be to take sequential shots of bike racing. They move fast on a predicable racing line (mostly:eek:).[QUOTE]

I agree about the BIFs but to a certain extent this is where the experience of the photographer comes in. The key factor for any CAF with whatever camera is the initial acquisition, as tracking has a hard time trying to follow without this. Some cameras like the 7D etc. acquire amazingly fast so therefore tracking is more reliable.

David

birdboy
17th September 2013, 07:06 PM
I agree about the BIFs but to a certain extent this is where the experience of the photographer comes in. The key factor for any CAF with whatever camera is the initial acquisition, as tracking has a hard time trying to follow without this. Some cameras like the 7D etc. acquire amazingly fast so therefore tracking is more reliable.

David

Agree totally. My suggestion for a fast moving high contrast subject (racing motor cycles) was to take away the experience factor. Its the camera we want to test not the person behind it.

The BSB bike event this weekend at Brands Hatch would be a really good test of the new camera if you have one. Wildlife is always unpredictable and they seem to be particularly OM-D E-M1 shy.

brian1208
17th September 2013, 08:33 PM
take away the experience factor. Its the camera we want to test not the person behind it.


interesting, that's a point I hadn't even considered - must be very difficult to do.

From my experience of lab work we would need something like 25 randomly selected operators to remove the effect of operator experience and lord knows how many comparison tests between examples of the same systems to remove within system variability - only then could we make comparisons on differences in performance between "A" and "B"

Glad I just have to satisfy myself that something works or not *chr

Bikie John
18th September 2013, 07:58 AM
interesting, that's a point I hadn't even considered - must be very difficult to do.

From my experience of lab work we would need something like 25 randomly selected operators to remove the effect of operator experience and lord knows how many comparison tests between examples of the same systems to remove within system variability - only then could we make comparisons on differences in performance between "A" and "B"

Glad I just have to satisfy myself that something works or not *chr

I will generously offer to be one of your 25 testers if you give me the camera :)

John

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 08:14 AM
interesting, that's a point I hadn't even considered - must be very difficult to do.

From my experience of lab work we would need something like 25 randomly selected operators to remove the effect of operator experience and lord knows how many comparison tests between examples of the same systems to remove within system variability - only then could we make comparisons on differences in performance between "A" and "B"

Glad I just have to satisfy myself that something works or not *chr


Frankly, if Olympus are launching this into the Bird in Flight market and its *rap they are making a much MUCH BIGGER mistake than getting 25 interested in Bif users to try it out :(

AND they shall be getting lots of returns :( Because there is NO WAY I am shelling out for this OM-D EM-1 and Keeping it and the lenses IF IT DOES NOT DO THE JOB.

I am now quite worried ... There is NO WAY Bif can be compared to Motorbikes or Cars *zzz *zzz *zzz at 11 years of age I was Pits/Trackside most weekends taking great images of Stirling & Pat Moss ; Tony Brooks or at various Rallye with Eric Carlsson ; Pat Moss/Carlsson ; Sandro Munari etc., with a simple Kodak Instamatic :eek: and then OM- 2 - still have many of the books and articles with my photos in :)

I shall write the return label now :rolleyes:

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 08:40 AM
Actually, I do wonder how the Dealers will feel about this ! The potential mass of returns :eek:


Lucky :D on-line sales qualify for Sales of Goods (Distance Selling) and we get *chr the statutory 14 days approval :cool:

Xenon
18th September 2013, 08:50 AM
Actually, I do wonder how the Dealers will feel about this ! The potential mass of returns :eek:


Lucky :D on-line sales qualify for Sales of Goods (Distance Selling) and we get *chr the statutory 14 days approval :cool:

The likely truth is that the number interested in the E-M1 just for BIF is probably limited, so although Olympus reckon there will inevitably be some returns, they presumably factor in this will be a manageable number, with many deciding to keep for overall satisfaction reasons.

For me, and you, Chevvy, the abilities in C-AF are probably deal breakers, if the results aren't great, but I don't relish the prospect of heaving a 7D around, even though it is excellent with BIF and fast action!

I'm glad Olympus give 14 days to return, although I believe the standard for distance selling is only 7 days? I may be wrong though?

Ian
18th September 2013, 09:08 AM
Chevvy - WHO is marketing the E-M1 as a BIF camera? Please be fair.

I don't want this to be mis-interpreted. I have repeatedly said that the E-5 is not a top-flight BIF camera but really specialised and skilled photographers like Andy Elliot and David Morison have been able to produce stunning results. David M has produced stunning results with manual focus lenses. You cannot buy even a 7D and expect stunning results without a lot of skill and determination.

All my efforts in encouraging the BIF debate here is about comparing the E-M1 to the E-M5 and Four Thirds DSLRs like the E-5. I always caution that the E-M1 is not a BIF photographer's dream come true.

What I do say is that the E-M1 is capable of sequential shooting of birds in flight with C-AF, something most photographers found impossible with the E-M5. Sequential shooting of birds in flight is also certainly possible with an E-5 and I have tried to help E-5 owners determine a) if the E-M1 is as good as an E-5 in this respect and b) if it is better. My answer is that I think it is at least as good as an E-5 and the signs are that it is better, but not dramatically so.

Nowhere has Olympus marketed or claimed that the E-M1 is a BIF specialist's camera, so let's not admonish Olympus for something they never did.

Ian

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 10:33 AM
Chevvy - WHO is marketing the E-M1 as a BIF camera? Please be fair.

I don't want this to be mis-interpreted. I have repeatedly said that the E-5 is not a top-flight BIF camera but really specialised and skilled photographers like Andy Elliot and David Morison have been able to produce stunning results. David M has produced stunning results with manual focus lenses. You cannot buy even a 7D and expect stunning results without a lot of skill and determination.

All my efforts in encouraging the BIF debate here is about comparing the E-M1 to the E-M5 and Four Thirds DSLRs like the E-5. I always caution that the E-M1 is not a BIF photographer's dream come true.

What I do say is that the E-M1 is capable of sequential shooting of birds in flight with C-AF, something most photographers found impossible with the E-M5. Sequential shooting of birds in flight is also certainly possible with an E-5 and I have tried to help E-5 owners determine a) if the E-M1 is as good as an E-5 in this respect and b) if it is better. My answer is that I think it is at least as good as an E-5 and the signs are that it is better, but not dramatically so.

Nowhere has Olympus marketed or claimed that the E-M1 is a BIF specialist's camera, so let's not admonish Olympus for something they never did.

Ian


Ian, either it DOES Bif or NOT ! Simple :)

YOU KNOW for many here "it is a DEAL BREAKER" and you started this thread " One thing many existing Olympus users expect from the new camera - BIF! "?

http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28742

HOW WELL ?

in the ... BIF thread you say "not as well as Nikon/Canon" and

" I believe that you simply can't just wave a camera and lens around at a flying bird in the vague hope of getting a great shot. I hope some of our esteemed bird photographers here can confirm that you need to do some advance planning, anticipating which direction the bird will be travelling in, establishing the right moment to start shooting and therefore locking focus and of course to use the correct camera modes and settings. "


I am no way an " esteemed bird photographer " - I only took my first bird images last year in 2012 :eek: I am a beginner and *RAP at panning and using the E-5



However, I am "in Training in ... anticipating which direction the bird will be travelling in, establishing the right moment to start shooting and therefore locking focus and of course to use the correct camera modes and settings.

BUT I am getting some results - not bad for my first 12 months


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/Kite_vi.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/61446)


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/Bif_P10102081.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65122)


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/Knight_AA98.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/60864)


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/Knight_AA99.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/60865)


THIS insect I turned to and our Keith (Ringneck) said " your not going for THAT" and I got it ...

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P5010420_insect_sm.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/59977)


Or this Swallow


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/aP70392910.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/59295)


Not bad for what I feel I am, a Beginner ... BUT I do believe that the OM-D EM-1 will with the 75-300 be a vast (for the PRICE?) Improvement for Bif ...

No I am not getting into the realms of Bif SELLING - IF I was then only Canon 7D and the 400 lens would do :)


BUT I do feel YOU and Olympus have sold "the OM-D EM-1 for Bif :)

StephenL
18th September 2013, 10:57 AM
BUT I do feel YOU and Olympus have sold "the OM-D EM-1 for Bif :)

Sorry Chevvy, but that's not the impression I got. :)

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 11:00 AM
Sorry Chevvy, but that's not the impression I got. :)


ooops best look at the posts ... *chr

katran
18th September 2013, 11:23 AM
For BIF, C-AF is not a must. An fast S-AF is more than enough for BIF.
From what I saw, E-M1 should be ok for BIF.

@Chevvyf1
Your BIF does not look that good : soft, shaked, noisy...etc.

I have some BIF done with E-5 on S-AF, some are aggresive cropped:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/9521736495_1a314e79dc_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27603562@N04/9521736495/)
Vanturel de seara juvenil / Red-footed Falcon juvenile in fly (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27603562@N04/9521736495/) by Fraton (http://www.flickr.com/people/27603562@N04/), on Flickr

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2884/9549484760_b74e665a47_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27603562@N04/9549484760/)
Sorecar comun / Common Buzzard (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27603562@N04/9549484760/) by Fraton (http://www.flickr.com/people/27603562@N04/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7312/8714201521_e71692594f_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27603562@N04/8714201521/)
Western Marsh-harrier (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27603562@N04/8714201521/) by Fraton (http://www.flickr.com/people/27603562@N04/), on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8107/8651951802_4d27e76a42_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27603562@N04/8651951802/)
Common House Martin / Lastunul de casa (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27603562@N04/8651951802/) by Fraton (http://www.flickr.com/people/27603562@N04/), on Flickr



http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8173/8060203301_10e85e61c7_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27603562@N04/8060203301/)
Buzzard / Sorecar (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27603562@N04/8060203301/) by Fraton (http://www.flickr.com/people/27603562@N04/), on Flickr

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 11:31 AM
looked through post 64 from Ian 2 weeks ago

" I honestly don't know if the new camera that has been promised can do BIF as well as or better than an E-5. I was simply pointing out that this is something that Four Thirds and many Pen/OM-D Micro Four Thirds photographers are hoping for. In this light am optimistic that the new camera will be at least as good as an E-5. It's something Olympus is acutely aware so I am sure they would have worked on this area.

I also wanted to highlight the fact that while some other brand DSLRs, like the Canon 7D, are particularly good for this type of photography, many DSLRs aren't; try BIF on a 5D Mark II, for example - the AF system on that camera and many other Canons apart from the very top models are not up to the job. So the contextual point I am making is that while the E-5 is so-so at BIF photography demands it's far from being alone.

Ian "


Apologies to Ian :D

Xenon
18th September 2013, 11:33 AM
I think it would be nice to have some confirmation of the camera's abilities, and it does look hopeful.

No-one is expecting 7D performance, but it has been stated that it is "thought" or "alleged" to be in the Nikon D7100 class for C-AF with tracking.

Now..it would be good to see some hands-on experience, my preference with M4/3 existing lenses.

The messages coming across are somewhat vague or mixed, and some clarification of the E-M1's potential would be welcomed.

BIF is a small part of my work, but action shots are an increasing interest.
I do not want to have to use a 7D sized DSLR, so expect something of an improvement over the E-M5, which I enjoy.

It is hoped with the number of professionals having had some time to use it that this will be addressed over the next week or two :)

StephenL
18th September 2013, 11:39 AM
No-one will know the true, real-world capabilities of this camera until it has been used in the wild by a great many photographers, over a great many disciplines, over quite a period of time.

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 11:43 AM
[QUOTE=katran;250897]

@Chevvyf1
Your BIF does not look that good : soft, shaked, noisy...etc.

As your 2nd and 3rd :)

I am not the expert you are ... *chr

I am only 12 months into Bif and learning :) :D

Xenon
18th September 2013, 11:44 AM
No-one will know the true, real-world capabilities of this camera until it has been used in the wild by a great many photographers, over a great many disciplines, over quite a period of time.

Naturally so, but it must be possible to give some idea of it's worth??

I don't accept that this is an unreasonable expectation even at this early stage.

I treat most advertising in the way I interpret political manifestos.

You have to take it with a very large pinch of salt!! :)

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 11:45 AM
No-one will know the true, real-world capabilities of this camera until it has been used in the wild by a great many photographers, over a great many disciplines, over quite a period of time.


Stephen, My whole point ! Could we possibly expect Olympus - such a world leader in IMAGING - to put the EM-1 out with a number of Bird Togs to get reviews, if it is any good at all ?


Maybe we shall see some soon ... :cool:


IF NOT, then its not for me :eek:

David Morison
18th September 2013, 11:47 AM
Chevy,
When Ian started this thread he was stating that the BIF capabilities of the EM1 was a concern of many users, including myself. I have no illusions that this camera will be a wildlife photographer's dream but the EM5 had issues with BIF and very small subjects against a busy background so improvements in these areas would help to make the EM1 an excellent all rounder. I was pleased that Ian valued my opinion to the extent that he invited to give the EM1 some BIF testing before the launch to give him a better appreciation of the factors required for success. I have used the EM5 on holiday with just the 75-300mm and been happy with most of the results - even one or two BIFs with larger birds and my limited experience with the new camera indicate it will do most of what I want under these conditions. Maybe when I am on a hard core birding trip I will still use the 7D but the EM1 and it's predecessor can do so much more than the Canon so one of them will always be on the other shoulder. I must admit that my original thought was to be able to use just one system for everything including BIFs but that was just unrealistic. Having handled the EM1 and read the manual I decided that there were so many other reasons to order one and I am sure that with a little practise good BIFs will come. And I promise that the new camera will get a thorough testing as soon as I get my hands on it!

David

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 11:48 AM
Naturally so, but it must be possible to give some idea of it's worth??

I don't accept that this is an unreasonable expectation even at this early stage.

I treat most advertising in the way I interpret political manifestos.

You have to take it with a very large pinch of salt!! :)


EEK ! I don't take salt ... but *chr I get your drift :)

Although I was not excited by Ian pigeon post of pictures ...

I was tempted to order in the belief that it was much better than the E-5 :cool:

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 11:49 AM
Sorry Chevvy, but that's not the impression I got. :)


Quote from Ian and apologies to Ian posted *chr It was what I read into his words ... :( from an enriched level of expectation :cool:

Xenon
18th September 2013, 11:54 AM
EEK ! I don't take salt ... but *chr I get your drift :)

I was tempted to order in the belief that it was much better than the E-5 :cool:

Chevvy, neither do I...much :)

We have the luxury of time on our sides here, and the E-M5 is a great performer, so we hope the E-M1 will suit most of our photographic needs, but with vastly improved (functional) C-AF!

It is the seeming conflict of reports that I see on the web which is leading me to some, admittedly minor at this stage, doubts :)

Fingers crossed we will end up pleased!

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 12:07 PM
Chevy,
When Ian started this thread he was stating that the BIF capabilities of the EM1 was a concern of many users, including myself. I have no illusions that this camera will be a wildlife photographer's dream but the EM5 had issues with BIF and very small subjects against a busy background so improvements in these areas would help to make the EM1 an excellent all rounder. I was pleased that Ian valued my opinion to the extent that he invited to give the EM1 some BIF testing before the launch to give him a better appreciation of the factors required for success. I have used the EM5 on holiday with just the 75-300mm and been happy with most of the results - even one or two BIFs with larger birds and my limited experience with the new camera indicate it will do most of what I want under these conditions. Maybe when I am on a hard core birding trip I will still use the 7D but the EM1 and it's predecessor can do so much more than the Canon so one of them will always be on the other shoulder. I must admit that my original thought was to be able to use just one system for everything including BIFs but that was just unrealistic. Having handled the EM1 and read the manual I decided that there were so many other reasons to order one and I am sure that with a little practise good BIFs will come. And I promise that the new camera will get a thorough testing as soon as I get my hands on it!

David



David, I want to say HUGE THANKS for this :) :D *chr

Hyperbole :rolleyes: rules :)

I think I shall be ordering a Canon 7D and lens anyway for my Christmas Pressie - as I am booked on a few two day courses out with other Canon 7D users in early next year - thus I will have winter to read up the manual ... best make up a few thousand more Pop Up Christmas cards :D to pay for it ... and Valentine cards :) for the lens ...

Xenon
18th September 2013, 12:20 PM
I think I shall be ordering a Canon 7D and lens anyway for my Christmas Pressie - as I am booked on a few two day courses out with other Canon 7D users in early next year - thus I will have winter to read up the manual ... best make up a few thousand more Pop Up Christmas cards :D to pay for it ... and Valentine cards :) for the lens ...

Eh?? Chevvy, does this mean you've abandoned the E-M1 purchase already, or are you going for both??

Just curious :)

Ian
18th September 2013, 01:00 PM
I think what I have been avoiding saying in order not to offend anyone... but buying a 7D is no guarantee of better BIF. I would strongly urger you try all the solutions first and then make a properly informed choice.

Ian

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 01:05 PM
Eh?? Chevvy, does this mean you've abandoned the E-M1 purchase already, or are you going for both??

Just curious :)

I am going for the EM- ONE ... but I am putting a funding plan in place for the Canon 7D & lens ... IF the ONE is GREAT FOR me all around :) then the Canon Fund can pay for my holiday and I can upgrade the holiday next year :)

IF the ONE with the 75-300 comes anywhere near the E-5 and 50-200 (with the extra reach of the 75-300) then I shall be having a super Italian holiday next year :)

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 01:13 PM
I think what I have been avoiding saying in order not to offend anyone... but buying a 7D is no guarantee of better BIF. I would strongly urge you try all the solutions first and then make a properly informed choice.

Ian

THAT is my plan !

Ian, I do appreciate the info here :) and your honesty :)

and I do NOT fancy the Canon system weight :( :( :(

David Morison
18th September 2013, 01:25 PM
I think what I have been avoiding saying in order not to offend anyone... but buying a 7D is no guarantee of better BIF. I would strongly urger you try all the solutions first and then make a properly informed choice.

Ian

Yes, I think it took me around two months before I could get the results that my friend did on the 7D - quite a bewildering set of options for AF. Another point is that for static subjects I think the E5 is the equal of the 7D and the EM5 is probably better.

David

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 01:35 PM
David, how many years have you been taking Bifs ?

David Morison
18th September 2013, 02:50 PM
David, how many years have you been taking Bifs ?

Successfully, probably only about 5 years but I 've been trying for about 20!

David

birdboy
18th September 2013, 03:09 PM
I really do think we need to try and keep a sense of realism here. I did get the impression that the E-M1 would allow those experienced users to get great BIF pictures and that came directly from Ian and the fact that he arranged our experienced guys to have an initial play. To be fair to Ian he did qualify that by saying that it would not be the best BIF camera. It is too often underestimated just how much learning has to be done with a new camera. I doubt that it can be done in week for most normal use. This is even more relevant as the E-M1 is employing new sensors technology, on sensor PDAF.

I think it a little unfair to be criticising others BIF pictures when you do not know what was used to take the picture and how much cropping has been done to the pictures displayed. I am not talking about camera and lens but sturdy tripods and gimbal heads. If you are going to use a 300mm (efl600mm) hand held then you will not get crisp sharp pictures, but you will get pictures that some call record shots which can be considered stunning in themselves. I have for now given up on taking BIF at this length other than for record shots and now try to put myself in the position of getting closer and using circa 100mm (efl200mm).

I think the sensible approach to buying this camera would be based upon your financial position and what you want to take pictures of. If you do not have to break the piggy bank and except that it may not deliver for BIF but there are other features which make it worth exploring then order it how. If BIF or action make up over 80% of what you want to do and you are having to beg steal and borrow to raise the finances then wait a while see what feedback you get from this excellent forum then decide.

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 03:19 PM
Successfully, probably only about 5 years but I 've been trying for about 20!

David

Ahh! WELL :rolleyes: I need all the help I can get at MY age then for the next 25 years ... :rolleyes:

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 03:21 PM
I really do think we need to try and keep a sense of realism here. I did get the impression that the E-M1 would allow those experienced users to get great BIF pictures and that came directly from Ian and the fact that he arranged our experienced guys to have an initial play. To be fair to Ian he did qualify that by saying that it would not be the best BIF camera. It is too often underestimated just how much learning has to be done with a new camera. I doubt that it can be done in week for most normal use. This is even more relevant as the E-M1 is employing new sensors technology, on sensor PDAF.

I think it a little unfair to be criticising others BIF pictures when you do not know what was used to take the picture and how much cropping has been done to the pictures displayed. I am not talking about camera and lens but sturdy tripods and gimbal heads. If you are going to use a 300mm (efl600mm) hand held then you will not get crisp sharp pictures, but you will get pictures that some call record shots which can be considered stunning in themselves. I have for now given up on taking BIF at this length other than for record shots and now try to put myself in the position of getting closer and using circa 100mm (efl200mm).

I think the sensible approach to buying this camera would be based upon your financial position and what you want to take pictures of. If you do not have to break the piggy bank and except that it may not deliver for BIF but there are other features which make it worth exploring then order it how. If BIF or action make up over 80% of what you want to do and you are having to beg steal and borrow to raise the finances then wait a while see what feedback you get from this excellent forum then decide.

an equitable critique' Birdboy :D

StephenL
18th September 2013, 04:01 PM
Purely unscientific, I know, but I've just had a brief chance to try the 4/3 12-60 on an E-M1 body. Boy, does it focus quickly, even in low light! And with the portrait grip fitted to the camera, it doesn't feel unduly large. The grip allows the body to rest on the heel of the left hand whilst the digits do the handling of the lens.

Ian
18th September 2013, 04:30 PM
And whose E-M1 and 12-60 was that, Stephen? :D

It was a pleasure to meet you briefly this afternoon and to meet Dibnah!

Ian

StephenL
18th September 2013, 05:20 PM
And whose E-M1 and 12-60 was that, Stephen? :D

It was a pleasure to meet you briefly this afternoon and to meet Dibnah!

Ian
And you, Ian *chr

Also interesting to see the elusive 12-40.

Zuiko
18th September 2013, 05:25 PM
I accept that BIF is undoubtably one of the toughest tests possible for an AF system so it is naturally regarded as a benchmark of success, but I do wonder if we are starting to place a little too much emphasis on it regarding the E-M1. The PDAF system in this camera is the first in any Micro Four Thirds camera to provide CAF of any value. Therefore, isn't it a little unrealistic to expect it to match the very best in the whole industry in it's first iteration? I'm sure the AF capabilities will be refined and improved as future cameras appear. For now, I would consider matching the E-5 a major achievement and any improvement upon that as a bonus.

I feel that serious birding is perhaps a little too specialist for a general purpose camera in much the same way that serious landscaping would be if we were expecting the resolution and tonal qualities of a D800E in the E-M1. I like a good landscape as much as anyone but I'm prepared to accept the limitations of the small MFT sensor in order to enjoy a small, lightweight and portable system.

That's not to say the E-M1 will be inadequate at either BIF or landscapes - far from it, but it won't eclipse the best in class either.

StephenL
18th September 2013, 05:27 PM
Well said, John! *chr

birdboy
18th September 2013, 05:41 PM
I accept that BIF is undoubtably one of the toughest tests possible for an AF system so it is naturally regarded as a benchmark of success, but I do wonder if we are starting to place a little too much emphasis on it regarding the E-M1. The PDAF system in this camera is the first in any Micro Four Thirds camera to provide CAF of any value. Therefore, isn't it a little unrealistic to expect it to match the very best in the whole industry in it's first iteration? I'm sure the AF capabilities will be refined and improved as future cameras appear. For now, I would consider matching the E-5 a major achievement and any improvement upon that as a bonus.

I feel that serious birding is perhaps a little too specialist for a general purpose camera in much the same way that serious landscaping would be if we were expecting the resolution and tonal qualities of a D800E in the E-M1. I like a good landscape as much as anyone but I'm prepared to accept the limitations of the small MFT sensor in order to enjoy a small, lightweight and portable system.

That's not to say the E-M1 will be inadequate at either BIF or landscapes - far from it, but it won't eclipse the best in class either.

I fully agree with this. The thing is we do not know, Olympus does not know, in the real world outside the testing labs just how well people will get on with this new technology. There must be more tweets to the setup I have ever seen in a camera, it will take a while to for each of us to find those settings which suit our style of shooting.

Xenon
18th September 2013, 05:51 PM
I accept that BIF is undoubtably one of the toughest tests possible for an AF system so it is naturally regarded as a benchmark of success, but I do wonder if we are starting to place a little too much emphasis on it regarding the E-M1. The PDAF system in this camera is the first in any Micro Four Thirds camera to provide CAF of any value. Therefore, isn't it a little unrealistic to expect it to match the very best in the whole industry in it's first iteration? I'm sure the AF capabilities will be refined and improved as future cameras appear. For now, I would consider matching the E-5 a major achievement and any improvement upon that as a bonus.

I feel that serious birding is perhaps a little too specialist for a general purpose camera in much the same way that serious landscaping would be if we were expecting the resolution and tonal qualities of a D800E in the E-M1. I like a good landscape as much as anyone but I'm prepared to accept the limitations of the small MFT sensor in order to enjoy a small, lightweight and portable system.

That's not to say the E-M1 will be inadequate at either BIF or landscapes - far from it, but it won't eclipse the best in class either.

If I may say you may be missing the point slightly :)

No-one is asking if the E-M1 is competing with the Canon 7D, but exactly where it fits in the current hierarchy of available cameras.

As the first iteration of PDAF, on an Olympus body, some of us prepared to commit a relatively large amount of money want to know what to expect!

I'm sure eventually these facts will become widely available, and as an early "pioneer" of a new camera body there is an element of risk taking, but it's not too much, surely, to want to be presented with as much information as possible?

As Chevvy pointed out, this was raised by Ian originally, so it must be expected that further questions will follow....

At least this has raised the subject into the group "consciousness" :)

birdboy
18th September 2013, 06:01 PM
I think I ought to come clean on a stupid test I did last Thursday. Its not something I would even think of bringing my camera up to shoot at as the bird was way too far away.

Full frame OM-D E-M1 50-200swd lens 1/1250s fl 200mm f7.1 ISO200 CAF
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/506/P1010024-1.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65824)

What amazed me was that the E-M1 locked on and took a sharper picture than I can remember taking with my E3 / E5 at distances closer than this. I do remember seeing the green focus square following the bird.:eek:

This is a 100% crop.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/506/P1010024.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65825)

Now if the E-M1 can do that at that distance and lack of contrast, just imagine what it should be able to do with red kites filling the 50% of the frame. I am keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for some surprises.

David Morison
18th September 2013, 06:11 PM
I think I ought to come clean on a stupid test I did last Thursday. Its not something I would even think of bringing my camera up to shoot at as the bird was way too far away.

Full frame OM-D E-M1 50-200swd lens 1/1250s fl 200mm f7.1 ISO200 CAF
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/506/P1010024-1.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65824)

What amazed me was that the E-M1 locked on and took a sharper picture than I can remember taking with my E3 / E5 at distances closer than this. I do remember seeing the green focus square following the bird.:eek:

This is a 100% crop.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/506/P1010024.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65825)

Now if the E-M1 can do that at that distance and lack of contrast, just imagine what it should be able to do with red kites filling the 50% of the frame. I am keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for some surprises.

This is exactly the type of shot that is so demanding of the camera and which I do quite often, so this is very encouraging. I must ask if the acquisition was as fast as you would wish it to be and if it was then it's all good news? CDAF cannot lock focus on this type of subject but I have found it to work acceptably with a large slow bird filling 50% of the frame.

David

birdboy
18th September 2013, 06:28 PM
This is exactly the type of shot that is so demanding of the camera and which I do quite often, so this is very encouraging. I must ask if the acquisition was as fast as you would wish it to be and if it was then it's all good news? CDAF cannot lock focus on this type of subject but I have found it to work acceptably with a large slow bird filling 50% of the frame.

David

It was faster than anything I have previously experienced with the E3 /E5. I have not held a 7D let alone shot with one. I took 4 single frame shots and they all locked on. It should be remembered that this was with 200mm hand held and the light was very poor as well. I do think it looks promising.

jamsa
18th September 2013, 06:30 PM
I was impressed with the EM1 today and fully expect to be much better than any Olympus to date at BIF!

Zuiko
18th September 2013, 07:32 PM
If I may say you may be missing the point slightly :)

No-one is asking if the E-M1 is competing with the Canon 7D, but exactly where it fits in the current hierarchy of available cameras.

As the first iteration of PDAF, on an Olympus body, some of us prepared to commit a relatively large amount of money want to know what to expect!

I'm sure eventually these facts will become widely available, and as an early "pioneer" of a new camera body there is an element of risk taking, but it's not too much, surely, to want to be presented with as much information as possible?

As Chevvy pointed out, this was raised by Ian originally, so it must be expected that further questions will follow....

At least this has raised the subject into the group "consciousness" :)

I was, perhaps, attempting to manage expectations. ;)

I do agree that it would be helpful to have more actual results available, the problem is the amount of variables. Just for BIF there is the issue of which lens; some will be interested in performance of m.75-300mm whereas owners of the Panny 100-300mm will be concerned specifically with how the camera behaves with that lens. Owners of 4/3 glass will want to know how the 50-200mm with x1.4 performs or 90-250mm or 300mm. Then there is the issue of how each of these performs in low light, bright light, front light, back light, side light. Then there is type of bird - big and slow moving or small and fast/erratic. Are the birds already in the air, or being followed from take off from water, out of long grass or a tree? Are they flying high (background sky) or low (backgound trees, water etc)? Next, set-up of camera (there are so many customizable options) and becoming personally familiar with it. Would you believe that on general forums I've even seen people bemoaning the inadequacy of the 7D focusing, proclaiming that it's not what it is cracked up to be?

And that's just BIF. Other photographers will be more interested in fast moving bikes or cars, deer running amongst trees, flood-lit football or greyhound racing or indoor sports ranging from basketball to athletics. Each of these will have a similar amount of special issues and variables, so who gets priority? Only once the camera has been on sale for a while will all these questions be fully answered, but as early adopters, not only of a new camera but also of a new AF system at the cutting edge of available technology, I think we have to accept that to some degree we are guinea pigs and part of the testing procedure ourselves.

I must admit that if I was buying a camera principally for a serious interest in BIF I would either wait until there was a lot more general user experience in the field for the E-M1 or look elsewhere at proven and fully developed alternatives. :)

Xenon
18th September 2013, 07:42 PM
I was, perhaps, attempting to manage expectations. ;)

I do agree that it would be helpful to have more actual results available, the problem is the amount of variables. Just for BIF there is the issue of which lens; some will be interested in performance of m.75-300mm whereas owners of the Panny 100-300mm will be concerned specifically with how the camera behaves with that lens. Owners of 4/3 glass will want to know how the 50-200mm with x1.4 performs or 90-250mm or 300mm. Then there is the issue of how each of these performs in low light, bright light, front light, back light, side light. Then there is type of bird - big and slow moving or small and fast/erratic. Are the birds already in the air, or being followed from take off from water, out of long grass or a tree? Are they flying high (background sky) or low (backgound trees, water etc)? Next, set-up of camera (there are so many customizable options) and becoming personally familiar with it. Would you believe that on general forums I've even seen people bemoaning the inadequacy of the 7D focusing, proclaiming that it's not what it is cracked up to be?

And that's just BIF. Other photographers will be more interested in fast moving bikes or cars, deer running amongst trees, flood-lit football or greyhound racing or indoor sports ranging from basketball to athletics. Each of these will have a similar amount of special issues and variables, so who gets priority? Only once the camera has been on sale for a while will all these questions be fully answered, but as early adopters, not only of a new camera but also of a new AF system at the cutting edge of available technology, I think we have to accept that to some degree we are guinea pigs and part of the testing procedure ourselves.

I must admit that if I was buying a camera principally for a serious interest in BIF I would either wait until there was a lot more general user experience in the field for the E-M1 or look elsewhere at proven and fully developed alternatives. :)

Agreed, John :)
It is a veritable minefield!

There are some more emcouraging experiences coming out now on the internet, together with actual photos, so there seems little doubt this will be a huge improvement over the E-M5.

Look forward to the experts, of which I am certainly NOT one, telling us more in the coming weeks :)

Paul.

Chevvyf1
18th September 2013, 08:15 PM
... I'm sure the AF capabilities will be refined and improved as future cameras appear. For now, I would consider matching the E-5 a major achievement and any improvement upon that as a bonus.



Ergo, Focus Lock and Tracking is the said BONUS - I have been on about since the announcement :) :D

Jens Birch
19th September 2013, 08:02 AM
It is with interest that I have been reading this thread and studied the images posted by Ian.

From what I read, I conclude that those who currently don't use any version of the 4/3 systems and want to get into BIF and achieve a high success rate - the E-M1 is not their choice. They will be better off with a proven Canon or Nikon system.

However, for those of us who are seasoned BIF shooters using the 4/3 system, a decently working C-AF would be very welcome and could on its own merits motivate buying this new camera. However, from what I have seen, it does not get close to the dedicated C/N options out there.
So, why consider this body if the E-5 is inadequate and the improvements with the E-M1 are uncertain or marginal (wrt C-AF)? Well, it is not just the body. If I am to switch from 4/3 to C or N, I'd need to swap out some truly expensive lenses (which, on the current second hand market, won't bring in any large fraction of their original price) to an array of equally expensive lenses. A substantial cost that I have waited with taking - hoping for something more useful coming our way from Olympus. So, the E-M1, even with just a small C-AF improvement over the E-5 will likely be worth the money.

My biggest fear is just that my expectations are inflated by judgements from individuals who actually don't have much experience with C-AF BIF (with an E-5) in the first place, so that the new E-M1 maybe isn't at all performing better than what I already have. In such a case, I could have set those money aside for the switch to C/N.

So, basically, I agree with the essence of this thread that we have to wait and see how it performs in the hands of those who knows the limitations of the 4/3 and m4/3 alternatives. I'm terribly tempted to become one of those early adopters... :rolleyes:

-----------------------
You are more than welcome to browse my wildlife photographs (all taken with the 4/3 and m4/3 systems) at: http://jensbirch.smugmug.com

BTW, how can I add a signature to appear with my posts?

Ian
19th September 2013, 08:18 AM
It is a top priority for the uncertainty that dominates this thread be eliminated one way or another an as soon as some additional cameras become available I will organise a special 'BIF' meet at a suitable location!

Ian

Zuiko
19th September 2013, 09:46 AM
It is with interest that I have been reading this thread and studied the images posted by Ian.

From what I read, I conclude that those who currently don't use any version of the 4/3 systems and want to get into BIF and achieve a high success rate - the E-M1 is not their choice. They will be better off with a proven Canon or Nikon system.

However, for those of us who are seasoned BIF shooters using the 4/3 system, a decently working C-AF would be very welcome and could on its own merits motivate buying this new camera. However, from what I have seen, it does not get close to the dedicated C/N options out there.
So, why consider this body if the E-5 is inadequate and the improvements with the E-M1 are uncertain or marginal (wrt C-AF)? Well, it is not just the body. If I am to switch from 4/3 to C or N, I'd need to swap out some truly expensive lenses (which, on the current second hand market, won't bring in any large fraction of their original price) to an array of equally expensive lenses. A substantial cost that I have waited with taking - hoping for something more useful coming our way from Olympus. So, the E-M1, even with just a small C-AF improvement over the E-5 will likely be worth the money.

My biggest fear is just that my expectations are inflated by judgements from individuals who actually don't have much experience with C-AF BIF (with an E-5) in the first place, so that the new E-M1 maybe isn't at all performing better than what I already have. In such a case, I could have set those money aside for the switch to C/N.

So, basically, I agree with the essence of this thread that we have to wait and see how it performs in the hands of those who knows the limitations of the 4/3 and m4/3 alternatives. I'm terribly tempted to become one of those early adopters... :rolleyes:

-----------------------
You are more than welcome to browse my wildlife photographs (all taken with the 4/3 and m4/3 systems) at: http://jensbirch.smugmug.com

BTW, how can I add a signature to appear with my posts?

Hi Jens, and welcome to the forum. :)

To add a signature select "Quick Links" from the menu bar then select "Edit Signature." This will open a rext box for your message, then scroll down to "Signature Picture" if you wish to add an image.

Thanks for the link to your superb bird photography galleries, you are extremely accomplished and eminently qualified to comment knowledgably on the subject.

The E-5 generally seems to be now regarded as not much of a benchmark with regard to focusing, yet you have some stunning BIFs taken with it, such as the Stellers Eagle. How does it measure up in your opinion and does the E-M1 need to improve upon it in speed, accuracy, reliability or low light? Which Canon and Nikon bodies would you consider to be signiicantly better (we've already established that the 7D is in this category but there is some uncertainty over which other models would qualify).

David Morison
19th September 2013, 10:16 AM
It is a top priority for the uncertainty that dominates this thread be eliminated one way or another an as soon as some additional cameras become available I will organise a special 'BIF' meet at a suitable location!

Ian

Ian

I'd love to join you if that's possible?

David

gazza95
19th September 2013, 10:48 AM
Ian

Would certainly be interested in joining you if you are able to organise anything. Would be good to be able to spend a little time tweaking E-M1 settings to see what works best with 90-250.


Gary

Jetset95
19th September 2013, 11:16 AM
It is a top priority for the uncertainty that dominates this thread be eliminated one way or another an as soon as some additional cameras become available I will organise a special 'BIF' meet at a suitable location!

Ian

If you're going to supply some E-M1 bodies for us to pop our plethora of lenses on (for me the Panny 300mm as mentioned in a previous post) then I'll be there too.

Jens Birch
19th September 2013, 11:46 AM
Hi Jens, and welcome to the forum. :)
...
Thanks for the link to your superb bird photography galleries, you are extremely accomplished and eminently qualified to comment knowledgably on the subject.

The E-5 generally seems to be now regarded as not much of a benchmark with regard to focusing, yet you have some stunning BIFs taken with it, such as the Stellers Eagle. How does it measure up in your opinion and does the E-M1 need to improve upon it in speed, accuracy, reliability or low light? Which Canon and Nikon bodies would you consider to be signiicantly better (we've already established that the 7D is in this category but there is some uncertainty over which other models would qualify).

Thanks a lot for the compliment!

Regarding the alternatives, I'm not quite up to date but as far as I have figured out, taking portability into account (as this usually is one important factor for 4/3 shooters), I think the Canon 7D combined with a 400/5.6 is one of the most reliable options. Personally, being used to large glass, I would also consider the more expensive option of having a 300/2.8 plus extenders in order to facilitate shooting under low-light conditions (Sweden is dark in the winter). Another, slightly less expensive, Canon body which has gotten great reviews from my Swedish BIF-shooter colleague Brutus Östling is the 70D. He claims that he could do just as well with it as with his huge 1DX. The new pro Canon glass is not that heavy any more.
In the Nikon camp, I have considered the D4 with 200-400/4 ED VR II which would be an expensive but very competent alernative to the E-5 with 90-250/2.8. However, ever since the rumors about the next E-system body started to become more substantiated I have not kept looking at the alternatives - so there might be more recent and better options.

Regarding my issues with the C-AF of the E-5, it is the AF-system's inability to track in High speed sequential mode. Especially with the two large f/2.8 telephoto lenses - but also to some extent with the 50-200 SWD plus EC14. It seems like the AF system looses track as the mirror flips and then don't catch up again fully in the fraction of a second that the mirror is down in-between the shots. I have gotten better results by using any or all of the following settings:


Setting down the sequential rate to 3 frames/second.
Setting "C-AF Lock" to ON
Use "Normal" AF-point size
Single AF point (unless BG is a clear sky)
Use as large aperture glass as possible (e.g., not using teleconverters when not needed)
Use only IS-2 - only when needed.
Use a support, either monopod+monopod head or tripod+gimbal

I guess I have more things going on when I'm out there but these are the ones that came up right now.

Cheers, Jens.

Zuiko
19th September 2013, 01:01 PM
Thanks a lot for the compliment!

Regarding the alternatives, I'm not quite up to date but as far as I have figured out, taking portability into account (as this usually is one important factor for 4/3 shooters), I think the Canon 7D combined with a 400/5.6 is one of the most reliable options. Personally, being used to large glass, I would also consider the more expensive option of having a 300/2.8 plus extenders in order to facilitate shooting under low-light conditions (Sweden is dark in the winter). Another, slightly less expensive, Canon body which has gotten great reviews from my Swedish BIF-shooter colleague Brutus Ístling is the 70D. He claims that he could do just as well with it as with his huge 1DX. The new pro Canon glass is not that heavy any more.
In the Nikon camp, I have considered the D4 with 200-400/4 ED VR II which would be an expensive but very competent alernative to the E-5 with 90-250/2.8. However, ever since the rumors about the next E-system body started to become more substantiated I have not kept looking at the alternatives - so there might be more recent and better options.

Regarding my issues with the C-AF of the E-5, it is the AF-system's inability to track in High speed sequential mode. Especially with the two large f/2.8 telephoto lenses - but also to some extent with the 50-200 SWD plus EC14. It seems like the AF system looses track as the mirror flips and then don't catch up again fully in the fraction of a second that the mirror is down in-between the shots. I have gotten better results by using any or all of the following settings:


Setting down the sequential rate to 3 frames/second.
Setting "C-AF Lock" to ON
Use "Normal" AF-point size
Single AF point (unless BG is a clear sky)
Use as large aperture glass as possible (e.g., not using teleconverters when not needed)
Use only IS-2 - only when needed.
Use a support, either monopod+monopod head or tripod+gimbal

I guess I have more things going on when I'm out there but these are the ones that came up right now.

Cheers, Jens.

Thanks for the insight, Jens, it's appreciated. I'm sure we'll all be relieved to at least know one way or another whether the E-M1 is fully up to the task once it has received thorough testing.

Ian
19th September 2013, 01:32 PM
If you're going to supply some E-M1 bodies for us to pop our plethora of lenses on (for me the Panny 300mm as mentioned in a previous post) then I'll be there too.

That's the idea :)

Ian

Chevvyf1
19th September 2013, 02:38 PM
It is with interest that I have been reading this thread and studied the images posted by Ian.

From what I read, I conclude that those who currently don't use any version of the 4/3 systems and want to get into BIF and achieve a high success rate - the E-M1 is not their choice. They will be better off with a proven Canon or Nikon system.

However, for those of us who are seasoned BIF shooters using the 4/3 system, a decently working C-AF would be very welcome and could on its own merits motivate buying this new camera. However, from what I have seen, it does not get close to the dedicated C/N options out there.
So, why consider this body if the E-5 is inadequate and the improvements with the E-M1 are uncertain or marginal (wrt C-AF)? Well, it is not just the body. If I am to switch from 4/3 to C or N, I'd need to swap out some truly expensive lenses (which, on the current second hand market, won't bring in any large fraction of their original price) to an array of equally expensive lenses. A substantial cost that I have waited with taking - hoping for something more useful coming our way from Olympus. So, the E-M1, even with just a small C-AF improvement over the E-5 will likely be worth the money.

My biggest fear is just that my expectations are inflated by judgements from individuals who actually don't have much experience with C-AF BIF (with an E-5) in the first place, so that the new E-M1 maybe isn't at all performing better than what I already have. In such a case, I could have set those money aside for the switch to C/N.

So, basically, I agree with the essence of this thread that we have to wait and see how it performs in the hands of those who knows the limitations of the 4/3 and m4/3 alternatives. I'm terribly tempted to become one of those early adopters... :rolleyes:

-----------------------
You are more than welcome to browse my wildlife photographs (all taken with the 4/3 and m4/3 systems) at: http://jensbirch.smugmug.com

BTW, how can I add a signature to appear with my posts?


Jens, this "fence" is getting very crowded now :D

Jens Birch
19th September 2013, 04:57 PM
That's the idea :)

Ian
I guess it will be a local UK party *party ?

Jens

Ian
19th September 2013, 05:05 PM
I guess it will be a local UK party *party ?

Jens

But you are very welcome!

Ian

Jens Birch
19th September 2013, 05:36 PM
I'll be there if I'm around when it happens.

Hopefully I'll have my own E-M1 before that... :)

Jens Birch
19th September 2013, 06:05 PM
Thanks for the insight, Jens, it's appreciated. I'm sure we'll all be relieved to at least know one way or another whether the E-M1 is fully up to the task once it has received thorough testing.

BTW Zuiko, I meant to conclude that my hope for the E-M1 is that the absence of a mirror will make it easier for it to keep tracking.

Cheers, Jens.

catkins
19th September 2013, 06:27 PM
It's really interesting reading all these hopes, expectations and concerns for the new E-M1, as they so echo a lot that is going through my mind.

Overall though comes the thought that all cameras are a compromise and it is us, the owners, that are perhaps the biggest compromise of the lot! Photography is about enjoyment, challenges and in some cases money/income. I think that this new Oly will be a good compromise for most of my needs and, in the rest of my needs, may provide a challenge that I will enjoy learning about.
80% of my imagery will be landscapes, architecture and people, and for these subjects I have no concerns to-date. For the other 20% my imagery will be action, mainly low level aviation, a bit of BIF and sports. The messages that I'm getting make me feel that within this 20% I will be able to achieve better results in most situations than I'm getting with the E-30 - in both cases I would be using a Sigma APO 70-200mm.
I would love to be able to try out the E-M1 before making any decision so it seems a shame that there are no Olympus events in the North East of England.
Somehow I don't assume that the BIF test will be held up here, but if Ian or others can persuade the powers that be to give us North Easterners a chance to handle or test the E-M1 then that would be great. By that stage though I will probably have made my mind up and mainly be looking for reassurance that I've made the right decision!!

Regards
Chris

Chevvyf1
19th September 2013, 07:24 PM
It's really interesting reading all these hopes, expectations and concerns for the new E-M1, as they so echo a lot that is going through my mind.

Overall though comes the thought that all cameras are a compromise and it is us, the owners, that are perhaps the biggest compromise of the lot! Photography is about enjoyment, challenges and in some cases money/income. I think that this new Oly will be a good compromise for most of my needs and, in the rest of my needs, may provide a challenge that I will enjoy learning about.
80% of my imagery will be landscapes, architecture and people, and for these subjects I have no concerns to-date. For the other 20% my imagery will be action, mainly low level aviation, a bit of BIF and sports. The messages that I'm getting make me feel that within this 20% I will be able to achieve better results in most situations than I'm getting with the E-30 - in both cases I would be using a Sigma APO 70-200mm.
I would love to be able to try out the E-M1 before making any decision so it seems a shame that there are no Olympus events in the North East of England.
Somehow I don't assume that the BIF test will be held up here, but if Ian or others can persuade the powers that be to give us North Easterners a chance to handle or test the E-M1 then that would be great. By that stage though I will probably have made my mind up and mainly be looking for reassurance that I've made the right decision!!

Regards
Chris


Chris, your not alone - in New York, two friends of mine contacted EVERY listed Olympus Dealer and found very few 1) Have Demo EM - 1 for anytime and most not taking orders/not stocking :( ... I just checked ALL the NY NY Dealer websites and that is correct :)

birdboy
19th September 2013, 07:29 PM
I would love to be able to try out the E-M1 before making any decision so it seems a shame that there are no Olympus events in the North East of England.
Somehow I don't assume that the BIF test will be held up here, but if Ian or others can persuade the powers that be to give us North Easterners a chance to handle or test the E-M1 then that would be great. By that stage though I will probably have made my mind up and mainly be looking for reassurance that I've made the right decision!!

Regards
Chris

I am surprised that there are no hands on days for the OM-d E-M1 in the NE.:(

If it is any consolation if I was to suggest a place to test the new camera it would be the Farne Islands taking a trip on a Billy Shieds boat. I was up their earlier this year and had a fantastic time. There would be no shortage of BIF there it has to be the place to try the new camera.

Chevvyf1
19th September 2013, 07:32 PM
I am surprised that there are no hands on days for the OM-d E-M1 in the NE.:(

If it is any consolation if I was to suggest a place to test the new camera it would be the Farne Islands taking a trip on a Billy Shieds boat. I was up their earlier this year and had a fantastic time. There would be no shortage of BIF there it has to be the place to try the new camera.

McGillicuddy is in Brick Lane, London for 4 days with hourly sessions on light & model portraits THIS WEEKEND not far from Bishopsgate stn ... and EM-1 's to try :) :) :) *chr

Jetset95
19th September 2013, 07:33 PM
That's the idea :)

Ian

Great, with a bit of luck the format at the London events this weekend will allow us to test it out a bit as well. I'm off to the image space event at Brick Lane tomorrow, so hopefully even if the BIF don't appear then the BMX bikers and street artist session will let us give the PDAF C-AF a go...

Xenon
19th September 2013, 07:39 PM
Damian McGillicuddy has just posted the following video of some testing done at the Manx International Rally 2013, testing autofocus
OM D EM1 Auto Focus Test - YouTube

Xenon
19th September 2013, 07:43 PM
Great, with a bit of luck the format at the London events this weekend will allow us to test it out a bit as well. I'm off to the image space event at Brick Lane tomorrow, so hopefully even if the BIF don't appear then the BMX bikers and street artist session will let us give the PDAF C-AF a go...

Should be a very interesting test scenario, and I look forward to the results! :)

timmypreston
19th September 2013, 08:59 PM
The most important factor of any camera regardless of how good/bad or indifferent it is is the person who is holding it.

A Formula One car is pretty much the pinnacle of the automotive industry. A very fast, slick and advanced piece of machinery. Remove the F1 driver and its going nowhere. Put in a person who can drive a car but has never driven an F1 car before then it might perform but nowhere near to the limits the car is capable of. Is that the cars fault?

timmypreston
19th September 2013, 09:10 PM
Getting one shot of a distant bird in flight is possible using an E-M5 and 75-300, but very difficult and demands a well-honed technique and a lot of skill and luck. But getting a sequence as the bird flies is nigh on impossible because the AF can't maintain a lock unless the subject is fairly large in the frame and can be tracked very accurately by the photographer.

CDAF can only gauge which way to focus, not by how much. PDAF can, so it can discriminate between subjects that are nearer and further and usually you will be wanting to photograph the subject that is nearer, so a good C-AF system will bias the focusing to the nearer subject and once it has locked it should not need to make wild distance adjustments if focus is temporarily lost. Unfortunately CDAF C-AF will usually lose it very easily.

Also, Micro Four Thirds lenses (apart from the very slow and noisy original Olympus ones) are optimised for focus speed, which is very important for CDAF, but which benefits PDAF too.

I acknowledge that we haven't yet heard from a seasoned BIF expert with time using an E-M1 but that will come and I am confident that the feedback will be positive compared to an E-5 and especially an E-M5. The Canon EOS 7D is an exception and seems to have been designed for BIF and few other cameras out of the Nikon D4/Canon 1D league can compare.

Ian

Damian McGillicuddy has just posted the following video of some testing done at the Manx International Rally 2013, testing autofocus
OM D EM1 Auto Focus Test - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkIUjv7SdFY)

That is extremely interesting to see that the AF focus has been tested using a high shutter speed on the entry to a hairpin and the exit of a chicane. In neither of these situations would the car have been moving particularly quickly. Even on the daylight shots of the impreza it is on the entry to what appears to be a left hand bend.

Jetset95
19th September 2013, 10:43 PM
The most important factor of any camera regardless of how good/bad or indifferent it is is the person who is holding it.

A Formula One car is pretty much the pinnacle of the automotive industry. A very fast, slick and advanced piece of machinery. Remove the F1 driver and its going nowhere. Put in a person who can drive a car but has never driven an F1 car before then it might perform but nowhere near to the limits the car is capable of. Is that the cars fault?

It's an interesting analogy but if your super high performance F1 car overheats or hits a rut in the road it can land you back in the garage and an early bath. Not so an E-M1 or a D4 methinks.

Seriously, of course it depends on how good a photographer you are, but I couldn't take half the photos with my old Kodak Instamatic that I can with my OM-D - again an extreme example but you need a camera capable of taking the photos in your hand before the skill allows you to press the shutter with the right combination of settings to realise you're vision.

My previous CSC body was a Panny G3 - nothing like the ability in low light that OM-D does, or the image stabilisation in the lenses versus the 5-axis in the OM-D body. My new camera allows me to take images that the old one simply would not if I didn't carry a flash and / or a tripod with me.

pdk42
19th September 2013, 11:29 PM
I'm not heavily into BIF, but I do aviation stuff from time to time. I've done a bit of BIF with a 40d I had some years ago. For example, this taken with a 100-400:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/7085439129_2074589537_o.jpg

I know from this attempt that 80% of the shots were OOF and that technique counts for a lot. Having said that, the 40d wasn't great at AF tracking and I know that Canon and Nikon have worked hard on C-AF algorithms over many years to make their 'action' cameras as good as possible in this regard. To expect Oly to jump to this level in one hit is I think unrealistic.

However, this does bring me to an important point ... it's clear that AF tracking is as much to do with software as hardware and I'm really hoping that Oly keeps plugging away at improving the EM1 with firmware updates. The advances made by Fuji in AF on the XE1 in version 2 firmware were immense so it shows it can done. My fear is that Oly tend not to do long-term firmware upgrades though, leaving owners of older bodies to either buy the new gear or lump it with the old firmware (witness lack of an E-M5 upgrade to add persistent small focus points, assignable Mysets, Myset display on the EVF, focus peaking, ...).

I'm really tempted by the E-M1 and the potential to get competitive C-AF but like others I'm looking to see just how good it is is on m43 lenses first. I don't want to have to buy the E-M1mkii to get a system that really does match C/N systems.

Xenon
20th September 2013, 08:01 AM
That is extremely interesting to see that the AF focus has been tested using a high shutter speed on the entry to a hairpin and the exit of a chicane. In neither of these situations would the car have been moving particularly quickly. Even on the daylight shots of the impreza it is on the entry to what appears to be a left hand bend.

That is my conclusion too.
We still need to see some proper testing.

Ian
20th September 2013, 08:11 AM
I'm not heavily into BIF, but I do aviation stuff from time to time. I've done a bit of BIF with a 40d I had some years ago. For example, this taken with a 100-400:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/7085439129_2074589537_o.jpg

I know from this attempt that 80% of the shots were OOF and that technique counts for a lot. Having said that, the 40d wasn't great at AF tracking and I know that Canon and Nikon have worked hard on C-AF algorithms over many years to make their 'action' cameras as good as possible in this regard. To expect Oly to jump to this level in one hit is I think unrealistic.

However, this does bring me to an important point ... it's clear that AF tracking is as much to do with software as hardware and I'm really hoping that Oly keeps plugging away at improving the EM1 with firmware updates. The advances made by Fuji in AF on the XE1 in version 2 firmware were immense so it shows it can done. My fear is that Oly tend not to do long-term firmware upgrades though, leaving owners of older bodies to either buy the new gear or lump it with the old firmware (witness lack of an E-M5 upgrade to add persistent small focus points, assignable Mysets, Myset display on the EVF, focus peaking, ...).

I'm really tempted by the E-M1 and the potential to get competitive C-AF but like others I'm looking to see just how good it is is on m43 lenses first. I don't want to have to buy the E-M1mkii to get a system that really does match C/N systems.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Fujifilm X-Pro 1 system started off with pretty unimpressive AF to start with and so it desperately needed improving. And there is no PDAF supprt. Fujifilm X-Pro is basically no relevant to this topic.

Ian

Zuiko
20th September 2013, 08:24 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but the Fujifilm X-Pro 1 system started off with pretty unimpressive AF to start with and so it desperately needed improving. And there is no PDAF supprt. Fujifilm X-Pro is basically no relevant to this topic.

Ian

To be fair I think Paul was using Fuji as an example of what can be improved by firmware update and making the point that Olympus do not always appear to release firmware updates to enable possible improvements in existing models. On the other hand Olympus do have an excellent track record of including improvements pioneered in high end models in subsequent budget models.

Even at this relatively early stage I think it is plain that the E-M1 focus system is in a different class to all other current CSCs, the question is not "is it good" but "how good?"

Zuiko
20th September 2013, 08:40 AM
That is extremely interesting to see that the AF focus has been tested using a high shutter speed on the entry to a hairpin and the exit of a chicane. In neither of these situations would the car have been moving particularly quickly. Even on the daylight shots of the impreza it is on the entry to what appears to be a left hand bend.

That is fair comment, but I still think the results are impressive compared to how my E-M5 would have handled it. I just get the feeling that once more the camera hasn't been tested to it's full potential. In reality there are so many scenarios we would like to see covered that it is inevitable that the full answer to the question "how good?" won't be available until the cameras have been in the hands of early adopters for a while. I guess that is the risk you take for the privilege of being one of the first to own a new camera, but from what I have seen so far if my circumstances allowed me to be part of this group I would gladly take the risk!

ian p
20th September 2013, 09:26 AM
I didn't find the Damian McGillicuddy rally video useful. The background and foreground were in focus as well as the cars. The AF didnt have to be that precise. The only good thing was that they didnt go out and in focus again like the E-M5 does. (and like during the interview with Damian McGillicuddy) The took an easy task and dressed it up to look more than it was. Even as far as featuring art filters. BS all the way. I guess not aimed at people on this forum. (Just the poor gullible pros).

StephenL
20th September 2013, 09:33 AM
I didn't find the Damian McGillicuddy rally video useful. The background and foreground were in focus as well as the cars. The AF didnt have to be that precise.

I must say I wasn't impressed with this video. I used to take better with my Nikon FM in the '70s. Back then, all I did was pre-focus on a spot and shoot. Must have been OK - I sold dozens of the Manx Rally then!

But it's not managed to put me off the camera!

ian p
20th September 2013, 09:51 AM
No. I'd love to have an E-M1 too! Just not the obvious BS.

Chevvyf1
20th September 2013, 10:05 AM
I didn't find the Damian McGillicuddy rally video useful. The background and foreground were in focus as well as the cars. The AF didnt have to be that precise. The only good thing was that they didnt go out and in focus again like the E-M5 does. (and like during the interview with Damian McGillicuddy) The took an easy task and dressed it up to look more than it was. Even as far as featuring art filters. BS all the way. I guess not aimed at people on this forum. (Just the poor gullible pros).


Spoken like an honest Gentleman :cool:

I agree *zzz

Ian
20th September 2013, 10:13 AM
I didn't find the Damian McGillicuddy rally video useful. The background and foreground were in focus as well as the cars. The AF didnt have to be that precise. The only good thing was that they didnt go out and in focus again like the E-M5 does. (and like during the interview with Damian McGillicuddy) The took an easy task and dressed it up to look more than it was. Even as far as featuring art filters. BS all the way. I guess not aimed at people on this forum. (Just the poor gullible pros).

How do you know that the focus was reliable? :) I skipped through the video but we were only shown selected shots on the back of the camera.

Ian

bilbo
20th September 2013, 10:19 AM
How do you know that the focus was reliable? :) I skipped through the video but we were only shown selected shots on the back of the camera.

IanI totally agree. I was waiting and waiting for them to show sequential shots but as you say we were just shown a few selected shots, and in some of them the point of focus was dubious anyway. I guess I'll just have to do my own tests when I get the camera...

Xenon
20th September 2013, 10:22 AM
The reason I posted the video was that this was touted as evidence of the E-M1's tracking abilities, but as others have suggested this could have been achieved without relying on C-AF.

I'm looking forward to our resident experts on here providing some useful experience of the new body with a mixture of both lenses and experience levels/background :)

Still looks like an amazing new camera, but time will tell.

Fingers crossed!

ian p
20th September 2013, 10:34 AM
I presume the video they showed of the cars passing was created on the E-M1. Otherwise we'd just be looking at cars.

pvasc
20th September 2013, 10:51 AM
I presume the video they showed of the cars passing was created on the E-M1. Otherwise we'd just be looking at cars.

Yes I wondered that myself, we don't really know do we?

ian p
20th September 2013, 11:00 AM
We don't. But that was the whole point of the video.

Ross the fiddler
20th September 2013, 11:22 AM
Actually, I do wonder how the Dealers will feel about this ! The potential mass of returns :eek:


Lucky :D on-line sales qualify for Sales of Goods (Distance Selling) and we get *chr the statutory 14 days approval :cool:

You could be nice & generous & just ship it to me knowing it will be genuinely really appreciated & with no thought of returning it at all. I would certainly love this E-M1 & to double with the E-M5.

Ross the fiddler
20th September 2013, 11:44 AM
Yes, I think it took me around two months before I could get the results that my friend did on the 7D - quite a bewildering set of options for AF. Another point is that for static subjects I think the E5 is the equal of the 7D and the EM5 is probably better.

David

The same goes for macro photos. Some people can turn out such fantastic images & it can be so frustrating having equipment designed for it & still the shots are not anywhere like the others seen. I guess it all takes practice, perseverance, patience & a lot of skill & the same would apply to BIF too, I would think.

Jetset95
20th September 2013, 04:54 PM
Just found this post from Robin Wong on his test of the C-AF with the new M4/3 lens - check his third test with the roller skater - they can move pretty fast coming down that ramp!

http://robinwong.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/olympus-om-d-e-m1-review-image.html#more

pdk42
20th September 2013, 05:57 PM
To be fair I think Paul was using Fuji as an example of what can be improved by firmware update and making the point that Olympus do not always appear to release firmware updates to enable possible improvements in existing models. On the other hand Olympus do have an excellent track record of including improvements pioneered in high end models in subsequent budget models.

Even at this relatively early stage I think it is plain that the E-M1 focus system is in a different class to all other current CSCs, the question is not "is it good" but "how good?"
Thank you John, that's exactly what I meant. Of course I expect the E-M1's C-AF to be better than anything on the Fuji X cameras - whatever their firmware versions.

My point is that good C-AF is as much about predictive tracking algorithms as the hardware and that I would expect improvements to be possible by new firmware in the light of real-world experience. My concern is whether Oly do in fact update the firmware rather than just put improved algorithms in new models.

Zuiko
21st September 2013, 12:57 AM
One thing that occurs to me is that we've found plenty to critisize about the focus tests applied to the E-M1 so far, but little to critisize how the camera has performed in those tests. This is good, because at least we know that it doesn't have a low threshold for failure, there just hasn't been a sufficiently challenging test to catch it out so far. *chr

Bikie John
21st September 2013, 07:45 AM
And we've spent so much energy looking at focus performance that we haven't really discussed how good/bad it is at other things :)

John

Chevvyf1
21st September 2013, 07:56 AM
And we've spent so much energy looking at focus performance that we haven't really discussed how good/bad it is at other things :)

John


YEAH! John & John - like the Wifi remote Shutter operation :) now thats BRILLIANT :)

and Wifi instant uploading to various ... :cool:

Zuiko
21st September 2013, 09:22 AM
And we've spent so much energy looking at focus performance that we haven't really discussed how good/bad it is at other things :)

John

Seems we're taking for granted that the rest of it is the mutt's nuts. *yes

Jetset95
21st September 2013, 09:31 AM
The C-AF performance when I had a to at the Brick Lane event was streets ahead of my E-M5 on M4/3 lenses, but nothing so challenging as BIF, so if that's all you want it for then you're better off waiting to get your hands on one at a dealer and try it out yourself, or wait for a while for the early adopters to confirm in real world tests. Of cours if Ian or Oly can set us up with a an afternoon with the red kites and robins then we'll know for sure.

As much as I'd love one I think I'll wait for the real world data to build up, and hopefully the next offer from Oly which includes the grip or the 12-40 f/2.8 as part of the package