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Ian
30th August 2013, 05:23 PM
Yes, Birds in Flight - it's something the E-5, E-30 and E-3 are better, much better, at than any Pen or the OM-D E-M5, although Nikon and Canon are undoubtedly better at still (with some models at least).

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/511/P8300463.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65103)

It's all about autofocus and being able to continuously focus on a bird and not anything else in the frame, while shooting continuously at a reasonably high frame rate.

The E-5, E30 and E-3 DSLRs focus better for this type of photography than Olympus' Micro Four Thirds mirrorless cameras because DSLRs rely on phase detect (PDAF) or range-finding autofocus. PDAF is less likely to be confused while trying to establish focus on a subject that is not stable on the frame. If it gets a partial focus on a subject it knows immediately which way to focus and even to an extent how far it needs to change focus.

Four Thirds lenses are also geared (literally) for PDAF. The mechanical optimisations made for PDAF mean they don't work well with mirrorless Pen and OM-D contrast detect AF. So the general assumption is that Olympus will some how implement PDAF in the promised new camera which various Olympus statements have said will work normally with Four Thirds lenses.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/511/P8300450.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65102)

None of the above is new and has been discussed many times in many places. But what I would like to get to the bottom of is just how difficult BIF photography is. I have tried it many times with DSLRs and mirrorless cameras and I have come to the conclusion that you need to be highly skilled to be able to get a consistently high success rate - even if you have a high-spec. camera.

I have included a couple of my own BIF shots above and I am pretty pleased with them but I also have to admit that these are very much 'success by chance' shots :)

I believe that you simply can't just wave a camera and lens around at a flying bird in the vague hope of getting a great shot. I hope some of our esteemed bird photographers here can confirm that you need to do some advance planning, anticipating which direction the bird will be travelling in, establishing the right moment to start shooting and therefore locking focus and of course to use the correct camera modes and settings.

For example, C-AF requires continuous shooting in L-mode, not H-mode - which only focuses once at the beginning of the sequence. Using the correct selection of AF points is important, and steady tracking of your subject is also essential.

I'm personally keen to learn more about this so please do post hints and tips here if possible :)

Ian

snaarman
30th August 2013, 07:00 PM
Coo, I don't do BIF, but that second shot looks pretty good and must have been difficult to nail IMHO.

BTW: Do I smell a rat, or at least a pigeon, Ian

:)

Pete

Wee man
30th August 2013, 07:31 PM
I though you could not use the new camera until the end of the month? that second shot is great good timing.

PeterBirder
30th August 2013, 07:40 PM
Coo, I don't do BIF, but that second shot looks pretty good and must have been difficult to nail IMHO.

BTW: Do I smell a rat, or at least a pigeon, Ian

:)

Pete

Definite whiff of rat.;)

I never had any success with CAF on any of my previous cameras (E-410, E-510 and E-600) even though they used PDAF. This I put down to the Olympus PDAF algorithms being inadequate (plus of course my own limitations).
The E-M5 gives a different possibility which a number of other members have also found. The actual focus speed of the latest m4/3 cameras and lenses is very fast although the CAF algorithms seem little improved. By using SAF a single (usually small) focus box and continually "pumping" the half press focus while tracking the bird and then firing the shutter( either single shot or burst) when the right composition is obtained gives a much improved "keeper" rate.

Now, if Olympus have a new CDAF/PDAF sensor AND have been able to develop tracking algorithms to rival certain other manufacturers then it will be a whole new game.

Of course it could be something entirely different, we'll know soon I guess.:D

peak4
30th August 2013, 08:09 PM
I'm sure a lot of it is about practice; something in which I'm sadly lacking.
The best two I've managed of late came about completely accidentally whilst I was watching for something different and didn't get time to change the camera settings at all.

View the exif on this one for a chuckle.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7302/9080387168_60308de850_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/peak4/9080387168/)
Marsh Harrier - Circus aeruginosus (http://www.flickr.com/photos/peak4/9080387168/) by peak4 (http://www.flickr.com/people/peak4/), on Flickr

And I turned round casually and found a Redshank performing in front of me one evening as we were packing up.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/9053412114_be98f6d970_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/peak4/9053412114/)
Redshank - Tringa totanus (http://www.flickr.com/photos/peak4/9053412114/) by peak4 (http://www.flickr.com/people/peak4/), on Flickr

Both really more by good luck than pre-planning, but it does show the potential if one did actually set out for BIF; ideally with a gimbal mount or similar.

Chevvyf1
30th August 2013, 08:45 PM
Trying to oblige you Ian :D


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/Bif_P10101770.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65121)



http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/Bif_P10100743.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65120)



http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/Bif_P10102081.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65122)


*chr

Ian
30th August 2013, 08:56 PM
Nice pix Chevvy although rather large for online viewing; I can't see the whole image on my laptop screen. 800-900 pixels wide or 700 tall is what I recommend.

So what are your tips for favourable keeper rates?

Ian

StephenL
30th August 2013, 09:20 PM
My take on this, fwiw, rather echoes Ian. A lot of it is down to technique. Modern, fast-focussing cameras can help, but a knowledge of the subject and what it is likely to do is priceless. The great bird photography Eric Hosking was also a renowned ornithologist, and he was that before he was a photographer.

Zuiko
30th August 2013, 09:21 PM
Quite by coincidence, whilst clearing the loft out today (don't ask! :eek:), I found this info sheet, supplied by Andy Elliott (OlyOM) a while ago prior to a shoot at the Cambridgeshire Raptor Centre with my E-3.


http://www.e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/BIF_INFO.jpg

DerekW
30th August 2013, 09:57 PM
I have managed the odd BIF

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/X8142928.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/38307)

DerekW
30th August 2013, 09:59 PM
and

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/X8142922.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/38306)

Chevvyf1
30th August 2013, 10:03 PM
Nice pix Chevvy although rather large for online viewing; I can't see the whole image on my laptop screen. 800-900 pixels wide or 700 tall is what I recommend.

So what are your tips for favourable keeper rates?

Ian


Sorry about size ... rushed to oblige :)

A) Know your subject, location* & flight patterns & light conditions esp. sun position

1) check weather forecast for Red Kite SUN Day - when good light confirmed
2) pop into Butcher and request Chicken Wings for the friday before
3) collect chicken wings, break each into 2 or 3 pieces and roast for 25 mins - allow to cool, turning so they do not stick ... and leave outdoors to cool and get "high"
4) charge batteries and select chips and lenses, pack photo kit bag
5) leave in plenty of time with chicken wings for "Breakkers with Red Kites"

6) arrive and set out "Brekkers" in well lit, in focus reach locations* and settle self ready with camera kit nearby - take a few test shots and adjust settings/position as necessary

7) BEG IAN for TRIAL USE of new OM-D Pro ??? *chr *chr *chr*chr

8) get the gas on for sausages, bacon, eggs, mushrooms and Tea for 9am with fellow Bird in Flight mates :) to discuss the fun and then throw the English Springer Spaniel in the River Thames for a wash off of the mud before packing car for home :)

David M
30th August 2013, 10:08 PM
Having had a manually focused shot of a Common Swift in flight published in a mag 20 years ago I've never understood all the fuss about birds in flight.

David Morison
30th August 2013, 10:55 PM
I think that technique and understanding the characteristics of a particular species' flight pattern are key skills in BIF. However while it is possible to accurately track most birds, especially the larger species and some smaller ones, these are not the only factors you need for birds from the Swallow/Martin group. as they hunt on the wing and are very fast their flight track is almost completely unpredictable as they will instantly change direction to catch an insect that the photographer can't even see. In this case getting it in the viewfinder is difficult and keeping it there is even more so and mostly one shot is all you can get. A camera that can lock focus in a split second on a fast moving bird is vital, at least for me, and of all the cameras I have owned the one that does the business is the Canon 7D ( the 5D MkIII is even better). Olympus has never for me come anywhere near this performance, even though the IQ of the E-M5 matches the Canon. With the reported 81 AF points it is hoped that the new offering from Olympus can match the performance and hopefully exceed the Canon.

No apologies for these shots taken on the Canon with the EF 400mm f5.6 (no IS) as they illustrate the results I am hoping the new E-M1 can achieve:

Barn Swallow

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/IMG_73551.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65125)

Red Rumped Swallow

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/IMG_7444.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65126)

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/IMG_7445.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65127)

Note that the ISO value used for the Barn Swallow is 3200 as it was taken at dusk. All shots are large crops.

David

Zuiko
30th August 2013, 11:03 PM
Those shots throw down the gauntlet, David! :D

David Morison
31st August 2013, 05:01 AM
And here's another with the Canon - a Crag Martin:

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/IMG_7451.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65137)

With these birds having the camera set to H burst rate does give you a chance of getting more than one shot, with L the bird would be long gone before the shutter fired again.

David

Ian
31st August 2013, 06:58 AM
It should be pointed out that David's Canon 7D remains the only reasonably affordable Canon that can do BIF well.

David, what frame rate do you get in continuous AF mode?

Ian

shirley
31st August 2013, 08:15 AM
My recent attempts at BIF. Taken with EM5 and 75-300 lens on River Thames

http://www.e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P6230321-Edit.jpg

http://www.e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P6230319-Edit.jpg

...and one that got away

http://www.e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P6230248-Edit.jpg

The following was taken on Farne Islands

http://www.e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/Home_for_tea.jpg

Ian
31st August 2013, 08:43 AM
Super shots once again, Shirley - proving that while not as easy as a DSLR, the E-M5 is capable of BIF :)

Ian

Ian
31st August 2013, 08:45 AM
A better explanation of why PDAF is better than CDAF for birds is that PDAF can measure the approximate distance of a subject and so if the camera's AF system is smart enough it can concentrate on the closest subject it senses and ignore those that are more distant. A bird will usually be closer than the background.

Ian

shirley
31st August 2013, 08:49 AM
Super shots once again, Shirley - proving that while not as easy as a DSLR, the E-M5 is capable of BIF :)

Ian

...sort of. The gulls were gliding, making it relatively easy, puffins on the Farne islands were impossible, I just have blurry blobs, the tern pic is OK but not really as sharp as I would like. So I suppose it depends on what you want. I do not specialise on wildlife photography so these are fine for me but may not be good enough if you want to compete or exhibit.

timg
31st August 2013, 09:16 AM
The only decent (and rather fluky!) BIF shot I have, taken with an E1 and 14-54:

http://www.e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P3230331.jpg

Chevvyf1
31st August 2013, 09:35 AM
Having had a manually focused shot of a Common Swift in flight published in a mag 20 years ago I've never understood all the fuss about birds in flight.

I have tried Swifts & Swallows this summer and need more time to observe their flight patterns and more LENS :cool:

I had the ideal opportunity last week, the Garage phoned to say they have another nest at 6ft off the ground in their thatched roof ... GREAT you think ? ... nah! backdrop is either Thatch old and dark with wire over or dark blue walls :(

Chevvyf1
31st August 2013, 09:39 AM
Here is a close one ... Keeper Rate for Red Kites at Henley with 50-200 6 of 10 - with 300 lens 8 of 10

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P60845602.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/61475)

Chevvyf1
31st August 2013, 09:45 AM
Here is a keeper rate of 1 in 200 - but I only had 30 mins to observe and it is more a grabshot :( lucky though :)


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P9011418c.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/51425)

Chevvyf1
31st August 2013, 09:56 AM
This was a lucky, being in the right place, having the kit on ready and a fast eye to catch it


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P8012619.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/37583)



Trispacial coordination skills -

... as for Tennis - hand - eye - ball

... for Bif - hand/camera - eye - Bif :)

... for Golf - hand/Club - eye - ball

... for Slalom G ski racing - feet/skies - eye - terrain

... for showjumping - hands/legs/seat on horse - eye - course

and FAST, very FAST acting human - because without this element the action is missed :)

peak4
31st August 2013, 10:03 AM
Just as an aside, if folks are struggling with the E-M5, take heart and get more practice, and I guess expect a lower keeper rate.
I must admit my number of saved shots was quite (exeedingly) low, but this one was taken with a little Ricoh GX200.
It's a great point and shoot with a high quality lens, but does suffer from a bit of shutter delay, which makes panning rather tricky to say the least.
Sunset in Essaouira, Morocco.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6212/6345610956_8cf302f08c_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/peak4/6345610956/)
Gulls at Sunset (http://www.flickr.com/photos/peak4/6345610956/) by peak4 (http://www.flickr.com/people/peak4/), on Flickr

I'm still not sure if I should have cloned out some of the distant birds.

Zuiko
31st August 2013, 10:55 AM
Just as an aside, if folks are struggling with the E-M5, take heart and get more practice, and I guess expect a lower keeper rate.
I must admit my number of saved shots was quite (exeedingly) low, but this one was taken with a little Ricoh GX200.
It's a great point and shoot with a high quality lens, but does suffer from a bit of shutter delay, which makes panning rather tricky to say the least.
Sunset in Essaouira, Morocco.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6212/6345610956_8cf302f08c_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/peak4/6345610956/)
Gulls at Sunset (http://www.flickr.com/photos/peak4/6345610956/) by peak4 (http://www.flickr.com/people/peak4/), on Flickr

I'm still not sure if I should have cloned out some of the distant birds.

Hi Bill, that's a cracking shot, from a compact too! I like the inclusion of the distant birds, they add depth to the picture. :)

Chevvyf1
31st August 2013, 11:16 AM
Nice pix Chevvy although rather large for online viewing; I can't see the whole image on my laptop screen. 800-900 pixels wide or 700 tall is what I recommend.

So what are your tips for favourable keeper rates?

Ian

As you know, I am viewing anik for their CAF with focus lock - if this were not so useful (albeit, not essential) for Birds in Flight then those cameras would not have sold so high in volume to Bif Togs :cool:

Thus, the icing on the cake, for me would be PDAF and a lighter version of the 90-250 (the current 90-250 and 300 are terrific shg BUT so heavy and Bif are mostly handheld, whilst I am happy with the E-5 and not needing a lighter OM-D EM-5 yet :) I am not into weight training with 3Kg of SHG as it is sooo unbalanced :)

I do wonder if the ? 75-300 m4/3 lens would work with the E-5 but I think there is a tech reason thats a no-no ??? Ian can you help me there ? please

shirley
31st August 2013, 11:33 AM
Hi Bill, that's a cracking shot, from a compact too! I like the inclusion of the distant birds, they add depth to the picture. :)

I agree with John, lovely shot, I would probably lighten the bird just a tad to bring out a bit more detail and deintely keep the background birds.

Ian
31st August 2013, 11:55 AM
As you know, I am viewing anik for their CAF with focus lock - if this were not so useful (albeit, not essential) for Birds in Flight then those cameras would not have sold so high in volume to Bif Togs :cool:

Thus, the icing on the cake, for me would be PDAF and a lighter version of the 90-250 (the current 90-250 and 300 are terrific shg BUT so heavy and Bif are mostly handheld, whilst I am happy with the E-5 and not needing a lighter OM-D EM-5 yet :) I am not into weight training with 3Kg of SHG as it is sooo unbalanced :)

I do wonder if the ? 75-300 m4/3 lens would work with the E-5 but I think there is a tech reason thats a no-no ??? Ian can you help me there ? please

You can use Four Thirds lenses on Micro Four Thirds cameras using an adapter, which is fundamentally a spacer tube, but not the other way around because a Micro Four Thirds lens has to be closer to the sensor than a Four Thirds body permits.

Ian

Ross the fiddler
31st August 2013, 12:18 PM
I do wonder if the ? 75-300 m4/3 lens would work with the E-5 but I think there is a tech reason thats a no-no ??? Ian can you help me there ? please
Unfortunately, no M4/3's lenses can be used on any of the E DSLR's with a 'flappy' mirror in between because M4/3's lenses sit much closer to the sensor (by 19mm) which can't happen on your E5.

catkins
31st August 2013, 12:20 PM
I think that technique and understanding the characteristics of a particular species' flight pattern are key skills in BIF. However while it is possible to accurately track most birds, especially the larger species and some smaller ones, these are not the only factors you need for birds from the Swallow/Martin group. as they hunt on the wing and are very fast their flight track is almost completely unpredictable as they will instantly change direction to catch an insect that the photographer can't even see. In this case getting it in the viewfinder is difficult and keeping it there is even more so and mostly one shot is all you can get. A camera that can lock focus in a split second on a fast moving bird is vital, at least for me, and of all the cameras I have owned the one that does the business is the Canon 7D ( the 5D MkIII is even better). Olympus has never for me come anywhere near this performance, even though the IQ of the E-M5 matches the Canon. With the reported 81 AF points it is hoped that the new offering from Olympus can match the performance and hopefully exceed the Canon.

No apologies for these shots taken on the Canon with the EF 400mm f5.6 (no IS) as they illustrate the results I am hoping the new E-M1 can achieve:

David

Having just tried to take some photos of swallows before they depart back to Africa, all I can say is 'wow, great shots' - swallows really are a great test of all the skills that you mention. And I can rank them along with bees for testing the ability of the photographer and his/her camera gear!

A lot of birds do have a regular pattern to their flight, so recognising this can help pre-predict where to focus the camera and how to track the bird.
A large number of tracking focus points will then back up the pre-prediction to enhance and ensure the best tracking of the bird.
And backing up the camera with good focus lock is the need for the photographer to be able to clearly see and visually track the bird in flight whatever the weather conditions, which is where a good optical viewfinder tends to be preferred - the latest electronic viewfinders may be getting there but Live View on the LCD screen is not the ideal in bright sunlight!
And mention of the Live View / electronic viewfinders leads on to the next concern, speed of shutter button reaction - no way can I rely on Live View for a speedy reaction, hopefully this is a non-existant issue on the latest electronic viewfinders but, in the interaction between brain, subject's flight pattern, electronics, and shutter release, any delay has to be minimal.
A big zoom photographing a bird 'close up' against a smaller HQ fixed focal length lens photographing a bird further away, can be counter-productive as the ability of the photographer to turn swiftly while continuously tracking the bird to then get a good shot, should be weighed up against the ability to react with less speed and then later crop during editing. Tracking a swallow is the best test of either approach as I know how quickly they jink, twist and turn and I admire anyone who can 'grab' a shot of them using the full frame of a big telephoto!
And whichever lens used, cropping during post shoot editing will be a factor that highlights the quality of the camera and its focusing, the ability of the software to ensure or recover detail in the cropped shot, and the ability of the photographer in how many 'keepers' there are.
With the faster moving or smaller subjects such as swallows or bees, there almost inevitably will be a large proportion of 'binned' images, but surprisingly even with larger objects, such as low level aircraft, I am surprised how often my E-30 and telephoto zoom lens combo can lose focus (often at the critical moment of the 'star shot' of the day moment!!). Certain environmental factors such as bright light reflecting off the aircraft or haze seems to be possible key factors in these cases.

So, the reason for many four thirds users interest in how well the new camera focuses and reacts is hopefully something that the new camera will address and answer. The focus and exposure capabilities of the Canon enthusiast/pro cameras are something that I come across regularly in my interests, but I do feel that my E-30/Sigma 70-200mm APO combo has held its ground because I have to use my wits to pre-predict, plan and think before taking the shots.
Aviation, sports and wildlife photography is not necessarily the 'bee all and end all' (sic) for most of us, but it is a key part of why the DSLR has a future as technology stands at the moment - but will the new Olympus challenge that?
And here's my shot

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/OL315550_resize.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/21001)

Regards
Chris

Chevvyf1
31st August 2013, 12:25 PM
Chris that is a STUNNING IMAGE :) WoW ! :)

birdboy
31st August 2013, 03:31 PM
Ian I think you are baiting us so take this.
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/506/P4197685.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65166)

There are some stunning BIF here. It is a shame that some of the most difficult are not taken with an Olympus.

I agree with Ian and what others are saying that there is a skill as with all types of photography. Itís about having the eye watching the light. But for BIF the first thing you need is location ,then you need to get close, then you need the right equipment and skill to use it and finally you need to watch study the movements and loads of time and patience. Birds have different types of flying patterns different sizes some fast some slow some flap like the clappers others hardly flap at all. So for me there is a lot to try and capture. I have said that location is important and I try to visit places that cater for birdwatching photography. The one thing I have noticed is that when I go to such events I have never seen another Oly E system user.:(:(:( It does suggest to me that Oly is not up to the mark for BIF. I would love to see the others output but never do.

Here are a few I have taken. There are some more in my gallery.

This one worked because of AFC. I had been watching this heron but missed its strike. I heard it splash, I turned round saw and held the shutter button down and got a whole set of pictures.
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/506/P5242384.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65168)

You need to get close. Its not always about long telephoto lenses this one used a 12-60mmswd at 12mm AFC. Just held the camera out paparazzi stile
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/506/P6269109.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65179)

Not all BIF need AFC this was take using MF.
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/506/P3041866.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65159)

Do you want singles
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/506/P6260325.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65172)

Doubles
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/506/P6260060.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65171)

Trebles
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/506/P5312570.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65170)

or flocks.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/506/PA116458.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65185)

birdboy
31st August 2013, 03:36 PM
No apologies for these shots taken on the Canon with the EF 400mm f5.6 (no IS) as they illustrate the results I am hoping the new E-M1 can achieve:

David

This is what Olympus need to do to keep me giving them more money. These are great shots David I wish they were taken on an E System.

The best I can offer is this one.

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/506/P4034725.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65160)

John

David Morison
31st August 2013, 05:16 PM
Ian, I have no way of accurately measuring the actual burst rate on the Canon using CAF (Servo) but I set it at H which is officially 8fps and it seems to be about that, slows down after about 10-12 RAW shots. Interestingly the 7D has a function which apparently maintains AF during H burst setting.

Another important point about BIF is that it is sometimes worth using a shorter focal length than the 300mm we seem to aspire to - much easier to track and AF, and most modern camera images can stand the extra cropping.

David

birdboy
31st August 2013, 06:54 PM
Another important point about BIF is that it is sometimes worth using a shorter focal length than the 300mm we seem to aspire to - much easier to track and AF, and most modern camera images can stand the extra cropping.

David

David I totally agree. We tend to think because we have 300mm zoom lens we should use it full zoom. I think you are best to take a wider angle view with BIF and only when you consistently hit the bird in the frame to slowly start to zoom in. BIF are all about practice in panning.

John

Ulfric M Douglas
31st August 2013, 07:06 PM
I did hear the E-5 was Olympus' best C-AF Tracking camera but it required some rather exact settings to get it to work,
settings found by trial-and-error and not really specified in the proper manual.

Someone has a site with it all, but it cropped up on a DPReview thread and there's no way I could find it now...

Chevvyf1
31st August 2013, 07:39 PM
David I totally agree. We tend to think because we have 300mm zoom lens we should use it full zoom. I think you are best to take a wider angle view with BIF and only when you consistently hit the bird in the frame to slowly start to zoom in. BIF are all about practice in panning.

John

I found this for sure when I hired a 300 from Ian a few months ago :)

I am wondering what the 75-300 will be like on the new OM-1 for Bif :) sounds like a veritable bargain to me :) if it works ...

shirley
31st August 2013, 07:45 PM
I found this for sure when I hired a 300 from Ian a few months ago :)

I am wondering what the 75-300 will be like on the new OM-1 for Bif :) sounds like a veritable bargain to me :) if it works ...

All mine were with 75-300 and this was the first time I tried doing BIF. I suspect somebody with more skills could do well with it.

Chevvyf1
31st August 2013, 07:53 PM
All mine were with 75-300 and this was the first time I tried doing BIF. I suspect somebody with more skills could do well with it.

ahh! Shirley thanks for that :) ... I wonder how that 75-300 lens is made up ... and if it shall be capable of whizzing more on the new OM-D EM-1 :confused: :confused: :confused: and maybe it can operate on a Telephoto extender ???

Does that 75-300 work at full sharp end (unlike the 70-300 4/3 which worked to 220 max) :confused: :confused: :confused:

Ian ? do you know ?

shirley
31st August 2013, 07:59 PM
Sorry, but I don't know the answers to the techie stuff, all I can tell you is that the first pic was at 75mm, second at 220 and the farne island one at 300. Perhaps somebody who knows the definitive answer can get back to you.

Chevvyf1
31st August 2013, 08:04 PM
Sorry, but I don't know the answers to the techie stuff, all I can tell you is that the first pic was at 75mm, second at 220 and the farne island one at 300. Perhaps somebody who knows the definitive answer can get back to you.

Thank you for that Shirley :) ... I shall look forward to more Techie info from ... our Ian ? maybe :)

ian p
31st August 2013, 08:45 PM
.............

birdboy
31st August 2013, 08:48 PM
For me the solution to BIF is a lens that you can pan comfortably and one with a good enough reach. Originally I was critical of Olympus for not making 300mm + lenses, but after many thousands of binned shots I have come to the conclusion that 200mm (not forgetting that this has an efl of 400mm) is about as manageable as you can use. In the end all the best BIF shots have come about because the photographer got close, its all down to field craft and knowing your subject.

So for me the best test of any new camera will be using the 12-60SWD and 50-200SWD lenses. My E3 worked ok with these the E5 was better now all I need is a body with a very good low light sensor so I could use IS0 6400 to get the faster shutter speeds for BIF at f3.5/5.6. A combo less than 2kgs. I brought into FT because of size/performance. Oly does need to produce a product to challenge Cannon in BIF / sports action field. I remain excited and hope that this is not another Olympus over the top sales statement.

"Thereís something big on the horizon.
A new OLYMPUS flagship camera with interchangeable lenses.
Itís set to herald a whole new world of photography."

PeterBirder
31st August 2013, 10:19 PM
ahh! Shirley thanks for that :) ... I wonder how that 75-300 lens is made up ... and if it shall be capable of whizzing more on the new OM-D EM-1 :confused: :confused: :confused: and maybe it can operate on a Telephoto extender ???

Does that 75-300 work at full sharp end (unlike the 70-300 4/3 which worked to 220 max) :confused: :confused: :confused:

Ian ? do you know ?

Chevvy.
Not quite sure what "capable of whizzing more" means but all m4/3 lenses focus faster than their 4/3 predecessors as they have less mass (weight) to be moved by the focus motor.

There are, as yet no m4/3 teleconverters available.

I think you have over simplified comments you have read about the 4/3 70-300mm lens. I don't think anyone said it "only worked to 220mm". Because of the compromises involved in designing a zoom lens all zooms tend to be less sharp at the "long end". I never found the 4/3 70-300 "unusable" at 300mm.

I have been using the 75-300 with the E-M5 for a couple of months now and am delighted with it.

Here's a butterfly shot taken with it at 300mm f8. This is the full (4608X3456 pixel ie. 16 megapixel) frame re-sized for the gallery.
http://www.e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P8210007_DxO_2-e.jpg

This is the same shot as I posted it in an earlier thread, cropped to 1507 X 1130 pixel ie 1.7 megapixels and re-sized. I would say that's sharp.
http://www.e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P8210007_DxO_1-e1.jpg

Regards.*chr

David Morison
1st September 2013, 05:46 AM
One noticeable issue with CDAF cameras is that they have great difficulty in locking focus on a dark bird against a light sky which is strange since the subject is high contrast and the mode is "Contrast detect". PDAF systems have no problems with this type of subject so if the new camera has Hybrid AF then it should be at least as good as the E5 considering advances in sensor technology. Tracking with CAF was not as good with the E5 as it is with the Canon 7D so whether any future offering will improve on this remains to be seen. Perhaps this is an over-simplyfication of the problem but that is how I see it.

David

art frames
1st September 2013, 10:19 AM
No idea whether this subject was started by Ian to create interest in capabilities that the new camera actually has or to remind me of the frustration I and several others have with the EM5. Which is undoubtedly good for some things but very bad for others.

I cannot believe Olympus has matched the capabilities of other makers in tracking and discriminating focus. All of the deliberate leaks so far have been to try and convince everyone that they shouldn't be unhappy at not getting a new 4/3 camera (despite all of the hints and promises). Rather than about what it can actually do.

To solve the issue of focus tracking they would need to have spent years of development time moving the capabilities of the E5 on a long way (to where many would say it should have been several years ago). They would have been redesigning the whole focus system - which needs to be created with tracking a moving object in mind from scratch. I imagine tracking and prediction is a major challenge especially in a very small body with antishake on the sensor rather than on the lens.

And if they had they would need to be working to create market acceptance from wildlife/bird photographers who are very specific in their photographic needs. In general for wildlife the issue of getting it in focus is a given, rather than the ultimate objective.

...because after you have travelled to a specific location, tracked and found a specific bird/animal/insect, watched for the particular behaviour or actions got into a good shooting position etc ....you don't always have the chance to take a hundred pictures to hopefully get one or two that are sharp. I know that to my cost as do many others.

But I would be surprised if this was high up the list of issues Olympus are truely concerned about. The amount of prime lenses available at 200mm and 300mm speaks volumes.

But not long to wait for the actual facts rather than the hype.

Chevvyf1
1st September 2013, 10:42 AM
Chevvy.
Not quite sure what "capable of whizzing more" means but all m4/3 lenses focus faster than their 4/3 predecessors as they have less mass (weight) to be moved by the focus motor.

There are, as yet no m4/3 teleconverters available.

I think you have over simplified comments you have read about the 4/3 70-300mm lens. I don't think anyone said it "only worked to 220mm". Because of the compromises involved in designing a zoom lens all zooms tend to be less sharp at the "long end". I never found the 4/3 70-300 "unusable" at 300mm.

I have been using the 75-300 with the E-M5 for a couple of months now and am delighted with it.



Regards.*chr

Hi Peter, YES :) I have oversimplified ... I myself and many others have found that the 70-300 was really no capable of keepers at more than 220 - there are many threads on here about that and other forums too :)

I am very pleased to see your 75-300 m4/3 images - GREAT IMAGES too :) WoW ! BUT have you tried it with Bif ? if yes I would lurve to see your images :)

I wonder if the NEW KIT will contain a Tele Con ?

Chevvyf1
1st September 2013, 10:45 AM
One noticeable issue with CDAF cameras is that they have great difficulty in locking focus on a dark bird against a light sky which is strange since the subject is high contrast and the mode is "Contrast detect". PDAF systems have no problems with this type of subject so if the new camera has Hybrid AF then it should be at least as good as the E5 considering advances in sensor technology. Tracking with CAF was not as good with the E5 as it is with the Canon 7D so whether any future offering will improve on this remains to be seen. Perhaps this is an over-simplyfication of the problem but that is how I see it.

David

David, Hear! Hear ! some of the overtly Techie replies are too mindboggling :cool: so I much appreciate your help here :)

Chevvyf1
1st September 2013, 10:48 AM
No idea whether this subject was started by Ian to create interest in capabilities that the new camera actually has or to remind me of the frustration I and several others have with the EM5. Which is undoubtedly good for some things but very bad for others.

I cannot believe Olympus has matched the capabilities of other makers in tracking and discriminating focus. All of the deliberate leaks so far have been to try and convince everyone that they shouldn't be unhappy at not getting a new 4/3 camera (despite all of the hints and promises). Rather than about what it can actually do.

To solve the issue of focus tracking they would need to have spent years of development time moving the capabilities of the E5 on a long way (to where many would say it should have been several years ago). They would have been redesigning the whole focus system - which needs to be created with tracking a moving object in mind from scratch. I imagine tracking and prediction is a major challenge especially in a very small body with antishake on the sensor rather than on the lens.

And if they had they would need to be working to create market acceptance from wildlife/bird photographers who are very specific in their photographic needs. In general for wildlife the issue of getting it in focus is a given, rather than the ultimate objective.

...because after you have travelled to a specific location, tracked and found a specific bird/animal/insect, watched for the particular behavior or actions got into a good shooting position etc ....you don't always have the chance to take a hundred pictures to hopefully get one or two that are sharp. I know that to my cost as do many others.

But I would be surprised if this was high up the list of issues Olympus are truely concerned about. The amount of prime lenses available at 200mm and 300mm speaks volumes.

But not long to wait for the actual facts rather than the hype.


Peter, You and I are sitting on that fence together eh ? maybe our Christmas Prezzies to ourselves shall be ... Oly or *anon*ikon Body & lenses ... it shall be a HUGE JUMP for me ... BUT I have the Budget as I have been waiting for this for years ... and I saved my street money and pub money all in the jar for this ...

We shall of course lose a fortune on our 4/3 lenses but ... thats life if this Oly has not got IT and its not GREAT the derriere shall fall out of the SHG Oly market rapido :eek:

birdboy
1st September 2013, 10:57 AM
Chevvy.
Not quite sure what "capable of whizzing more" means but all m4/3 lenses focus faster than their 4/3 predecessors as they have less mass (weight) to be moved by the focus motor.

There are, as yet no m4/3 teleconverters available.

I think you have over simplified comments you have read about the 4/3 70-300mm lens. I don't think anyone said it "only worked to 220mm". Because of the compromises involved in designing a zoom lens all zooms tend to be less sharp at the "long end". I never found the 4/3 70-300 "unusable" at 300mm.

I have been using the 75-300 with the E-M5 for a couple of months now and am delighted with it.

Here's a butterfly shot taken with it at 300mm f8. This is the full (4608X3456 pixel ie. 16 megapixel) frame re-sized for the gallery.
http://www.e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P8210007_DxO_2-e.jpg

This is the same shot as I posted it in an earlier thread, cropped to 1507 X 1130 pixel ie 1.7 megapixels and re-sized. I would say that's sharp.
http://www.e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P8210007_DxO_1-e1.jpg

Regards.*chr

Hi Peter I think you may have misunderstood BIF your have provided pictures of Butterflies in Flowers:):):)
*chrJohn

David M
1st September 2013, 11:11 AM
Not having tried an EVF the only issue I can see is if it's good (fast) enough for follow focusing BIF. All my wildlife lenses are MF although I did use my 50-200 and EC14 a couple of times after getting the EC14. My 50-200 is now a landscape lens.

Floribunda
1st September 2013, 11:43 AM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-29/photographer-says-perfect-near-miss-three-years-in-the-making/4922330

Chevvy asked me to post this link here. This has received a lot of press in Oz.

Chevvyf1
1st September 2013, 12:54 PM
Thanks Lyn :D

This article Lyn posted, just proved KIT is critical :) esp. Focal REACH :)


I have to say, from what I have read on the two new Pro lenses Oly are to release in Sept with the new Camera ... 150 is nowhere near focal reach for me ... no matter how light :)

and so I am off to Park this week to view a rather nice *anon and piece of SHG with all the money I had put by for the OM-D EM-5 I pre ordered and let go to someone else ... and the money I have been saving since :D to my new Bif Kit :)

OM USer
1st September 2013, 03:30 PM
For BIF it seems like the rumoured 40-150 is the only lens on the table other than the existing 75-300. Even if you don't shoot wide open will the extra aperture of the former give a speedier focus response?

Ulfric M Douglas
1st September 2013, 07:40 PM
I think the modernity of any new Olympus lens is likely to give that really quick focus response, regardless of aperture.
The miserly-apertured collapsible kit zooms have very impressive focus speed even in dimly lit currys/PCWorld : as is their intention!

David Morison
1st September 2013, 08:59 PM
Not having tried an EVF the only issue I can see is if it's good (fast) enough for follow focusing BIF. All my wildlife lenses are MF although I did use my 50-200 and EC14 a couple of times after getting the EC14. My 50-200 is now a landscape lens.

The EVF of the EM5 is a pretty poor substitute for an OVF IMO. Even the faster refresh rate doesn't change the problem of the subject appearing as a series of still images when using the H burst rate setting instead of a moving bird. At a lower rate this is made worse by these stills being interspersed by momentary black outs. Fast or slow burst rates on the E5 give almost uninterrupted view of the moving subject, perhaps another reason why mirror less cameras will never cut it with sports/wildlife professionals.

Another unconnected issue is the report (by Ian) some while ago that the diaphragm of the Panasonic 100-300mm did not respond fast enough to keep up with the 9fps of the EM5, I would imagine that this could be an even bigger problem with 4/3 lenses.

David

PeterBirder
1st September 2013, 09:19 PM
Hi Peter, YES :) I have oversimplified ... I myself and many others have found that the 70-300 was really no capable of keepers at more than 220 - there are many threads on here about that and other forums too :)

I am very pleased to see your 75-300 m4/3 images - GREAT IMAGES too :) WoW ! BUT have you tried it with Bif ? if yes I would lurve to see your images :)

I wonder if the NEW KIT will contain a Tele Con ?

Hi Chevvy.
I posted the Butterfly shot to address your concern about "sharpness at the long end".

BIF is not a particularly important subject for me photographically as I prefer to watch them "live" as it were and enjoy their flying displays rather than "catching that one special moment".
However on the day I received the 75-300mm I tried it out in a number of different situations one of which was BIF. This shot is the 10th shot taken with the lens and the very first shot I tried of a BIF. This was taken at 300mm/f8 and is the "full frame"
http://www.e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P7030010_DxO_2-e.jpg

I posted this cropped version on here the same day.
http://www.e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P7030010_DxO_1-e.jpg

On the basis of this very simplistic test and my limited skills I concluded it would meet my personal needs for BIF. Others may have different needs and opinions.

Re. Teleconverters I seem to recall one of those "Interviews with someone from Olympus" where it was stated that this was possible in the future. I wouldn't hold your breath this time round.

Regards.*chr

PeterBirder
1st September 2013, 09:28 PM
Hi Peter I think you may have misunderstood BIF your have provided pictures of Butterflies in Flowers:):):)
*chrJohn

:D:D:D:D:D Drat, didn't think anyone would notice.

I have now corrected my error.:D

Regards.*chr

David M
1st September 2013, 10:46 PM
Thanks David, useful info on using an EVF.

Ian
2nd September 2013, 07:28 AM
I honestly don't know if the new camera that has been promised can do BIF as well as or better than an E-5. I was simply pointing out that this is something that Four Thirds and many Pen/OM-D Micro Four Thirds photographers are hoping for. In this light am optimistic that the new camera will be at least as good as an E-5. It's something Olympus is acutely aware so I am sure they would have worked on this area.

I also wanted to highlight the fact that while some other brand DSLRs, like the Canon 7D, are particularly good for this type of photography, many DSLRs aren't; try BIF on a 5D Mark II, for example - the AF system on that camera and many other Canons apart from the very top models are not up to the job. So the contextual point I am making is that while the E-5 is so-so at BIF photography demands it's far from being alone.

Ian

No idea whether this subject was started by Ian to create interest in capabilities that the new camera actually has or to remind me of the frustration I and several others have with the EM5. Which is undoubtedly good for some things but very bad for others.

I cannot believe Olympus has matched the capabilities of other makers in tracking and discriminating focus. All of the deliberate leaks so far have been to try and convince everyone that they shouldn't be unhappy at not getting a new 4/3 camera (despite all of the hints and promises). Rather than about what it can actually do.

To solve the issue of focus tracking they would need to have spent years of development time moving the capabilities of the E5 on a long way (to where many would say it should have been several years ago). They would have been redesigning the whole focus system - which needs to be created with tracking a moving object in mind from scratch. I imagine tracking and prediction is a major challenge especially in a very small body with antishake on the sensor rather than on the lens.

And if they had they would need to be working to create market acceptance from wildlife/bird photographers who are very specific in their photographic needs. In general for wildlife the issue of getting it in focus is a given, rather than the ultimate objective.

...because after you have travelled to a specific location, tracked and found a specific bird/animal/insect, watched for the particular behaviour or actions got into a good shooting position etc ....you don't always have the chance to take a hundred pictures to hopefully get one or two that are sharp. I know that to my cost as do many others.

But I would be surprised if this was high up the list of issues Olympus are truely concerned about. The amount of prime lenses available at 200mm and 300mm speaks volumes.

But not long to wait for the actual facts rather than the hype.

Chevvyf1
2nd September 2013, 07:49 AM
One of the Rumours was 81 focal points for AF thats +30 over the Nikon :D

so it could be true ... :rolleyes:

Zuiko
2nd September 2013, 10:54 AM
One of the Rumours was 81 focal points for AF thats +30 over the Nikon :D

so it could be true ... :rolleyes:

Chevvy, it's not how many that counts, it's how well they work! I think 80 focus points against 50 focus points is a bit of a red herring. :)

gazza95
2nd September 2013, 11:11 AM
and 80 focus points only really makes sense for BIF, and other C-AF subjects, if new camera does some form of focus point passing. So as bird moves in frame so the main focus point moves as well.

Gary

David Morison
2nd September 2013, 11:19 AM
Chevvy, it's not how many that counts, it's how well they work! I think 80 focus points against 50 focus points is a bit of a red herring. :)

Agreed, the E-M5 has 35 focus areas whereas the 7D has only 19 and is a league ahead for BIF. However the reported 81 points may enable the camera to acquire the bird better initially, which the E-M5 has difficulty with - lets hope!

David

art frames
2nd September 2013, 11:40 AM
I honestly don't know if the new camera that has been promised can do BIF as well as or better than an E-5. I was simply pointing out that this is something that Four Thirds and many Pen/OM-D Micro Four Thirds photographers are hoping for. In this light am optimistic that the new camera will be at least as good as an E-5. It's something Olympus is acutely aware so I am sure they would have worked on this area.

I also wanted to highlight the fact that while some other brand DSLRs, like the Canon 7D, are particularly good for this type of photography, many DSLRs aren't; try BIF on a 5D Mark II, for example - the AF system on that camera and many other Canons apart from the very top models are not up to the job. So the contextual point I am making is that while the E-5 is so-so at BIF photography demands it's far from being alone.

Ian

It is kind of you to respond.

I am reluctant to change, but also reluctant to re-commit. Like others I have the funds and want to make the best choice I can.

I bought the E3 as a direct result of the launch event which you organised for us and would hope that something similar will happen this time. I would like to try out the new camera with some of my stubborn big lenses (like my bigma and 135-400) and then really weigh up the options.

Both of these lenses have given me their share of joy and annoyances and are not good choices for BiF either. I have always wanted Olympus to deliver a few more long lens choices...but that seems very unlikely now too.

I had thought the Canon 7D mark 2 would be launched on a similar timescale to the E5 replacement but that is now apparently ruled out. And good as it is for BiF the 7D isn't good for all of my needs... and I want to avoid running two systems.

If you have any pointers to where I shoul look then I am listening.

Chevvyf1
2nd September 2013, 12:08 PM
It is kind of you to respond.

I am reluctant to change, but also reluctant to re-commit. Like others I have the funds and want to make the best choice I can.

I bought the E3 as a direct result of the launch event which you organised for us and would hope that something similar will happen this time. I would like to try out the new camera with some of my stubborn big lenses (like my bigma and 135-400) and then really weigh up the options.

Both of these lenses have given me their share of joy and annoyances and are not good choices for BiF either. I have always wanted Olympus to deliver a few more long lens choices...but that seems very unlikely now too.

I had thought the Canon 7D mark 2 would be launched on a similar timescale to the E5 replacement but that is now apparently ruled out. And good as it is for BiF the 7D isn't good for all of my needs... and I want to avoid running two systems.

If you have any pointers to where I shoul look then I am listening.

Peter, I think I shall be running two systems - I am over the moon with my E-5 for most of my subjects :) (just as well as I have two) :cool:

But I am now favoring Canon 7D as David M uses and captures his GREAT Bif images and a rather nice 400 piece of SHG (this lens is soo much lighter than the Oly Zuiko 300 or 90-250 - one third of the Oly weight !)

AND Park are offering me £200 Canon cashback off body and lens :) coincidentally until end of October ... which must be when the new Oly comes into stock :)

Zuiko
2nd September 2013, 12:31 PM
Agreed, the E-M5 has 35 focus areas whereas the 7D has only 19 and is a league ahead for BIF. However the reported 81 points may enable the camera to acquire the bird better initially, which the E-M5 has difficulty with - lets hope!

David

I've got my fingers crossed for you David, I really have! *yes

birdboy
2nd September 2013, 01:47 PM
Chevvy, it's not how many that counts, it's how well they work! I think 80 focus points against 50 focus points is a bit of a red herring. :)

I think that I agree with you on this one John. The E5 has only a max of 11 AF points and the 7d 19. I have often wanted more AF points because that what others offer. But if you think about it to get good focusing you need to be close to your subject and that means filling the sensor with as much of the bird (for BIF) as possible. Ideally you will need that focus point tracked on the eye. I mainly use single point AF and may select a point other than the centre point. For BIF / sports action it is the ability of the camera to detect that phase difference using cross type AF sensors, and I would think it works best when it is only considering one point

Chevvyf1
2nd September 2013, 02:51 PM
I think that I agree with you on this one John. The E5 has only a max of 11 AF points and the 7d 19. I have often wanted more AF points because that what others offer. But if you think about it to get good focusing you need to be close to your subject and that means filling the sensor with as much of the bird (for BIF) as possible. Ideally you will need that focus point tracked on the eye. I mainly use single point AF and may select a point other than the centre point. For BIF / sports action it is the ability of the camera to detect that phase difference using cross type AF sensors, and I would think it works best when it is only considering one point

I do not disagree - the Nikon have 51 Focus points but I am thinking that the Canon is better at the job with 19 - only the Nikon UG disagree *zzz

Chevvyf1
2nd September 2013, 02:53 PM
The WORST thing about CHANGE is when it is ENFORCED ON YOU !

and i feel that Oly are forcing me to Canon because they are not interested in the Bif market! That may be a fact now and they have given up on that Market Share as it would cost too much to capture a dramatic share to cover all the engineering etc costs to Stock/sales - sensible business plan ...

birdboy
2nd September 2013, 03:29 PM
The WORST thing about CHANGE is when it is ENFORCED ON YOU !

and i feel that Oly are forcing me to Canon because they are not interested in the Bif market! That may be a fact now and they have given up on that Market Share as it would cost too much to capture a dramatic share to cover all the engineering etc costs to Stock/sales - sensible business plan ...

Chevvyf1 do not underestimate the power of the E5 which you have. I understand your frustration which I suspect has more to do with Oly appearing to drop FT users. From what I have seen of your BIF pictures I think you are getting fantastic results.*chr You would have to ask yourself would you get £2,000+ worth of better pictures than the E5. If you have intentions of a business then it becomes a business decision. Those that have the 7D and post great BIF have got great skill also. Part of the fun for me as an enthusiast is to try and use what I have to the best ability. If I had a camera that required no skill to take BIF I would probably lose interest.

Hype does not take good pictures. Don't buy into a system on the word of others. Such expensive conversions requires a measured response.

Here's hoping for FT support.

Ian
2nd September 2013, 03:46 PM
I've got my fingers crossed for you David, I really have! *yes

You can't really compare PDAF focus points as like for like with contrast detect focus points.

Ian

Chevvyf1
2nd September 2013, 03:48 PM
Chevvyf1 do not underestimate the power of the E5 which you have. I understand your frustration which I suspect has more to do with Oly appearing to drop FT users. From what I have seen of your BIF pictures I think you are getting fantastic results.*chr You would have to ask yourself would you get £2,000+ worth of better pictures than the E5. If you have intentions of a business then it becomes a business decision. Those that have the 7D and post great BIF have got great skill also. Part of the fun for me as an enthusiast is to try and use what I have to the best ability. If I had a camera that required no skill to take BIF I would probably lose interest.

Hype does not take good pictures. Don't buy into a system on the word of others. Such expensive conversions requires a measured response.

Here's hoping for FT support.


Well, You are so VERY RIGHT ! in all respects :) *chr

I may have to hire that 90-250 lens off Ian & Julia very soon :) ... with a view to buying one (if I can develop the MUSCLE power to manage it, overhead and ahead :D but it is SO VERY VERY HEAVY and I am old, very old ... and wilting

David Morison
2nd September 2013, 03:54 PM
Chevvyf1 do not underestimate the power of the E5 which you have. I understand your frustration which I suspect has more to do with Oly appearing to drop FT users. From what I have seen of your BIF pictures I think you are getting fantastic results.*chr You would have to ask yourself would you get £2,000+ worth of better pictures than the E5. If you have intentions of a business then it becomes a business decision. Those that have the 7D and post great BIF have got great skill also. Part of the fun for me as an enthusiast is to try and use what I have to the best ability. If I had a camera that required no skill to take BIF I would probably lose interest.

Hype does not take good pictures. Don't buy into a system on the word of others. Such expensive conversions requires a measured response.

Here's hoping for FT support.

Chevy,
I have to be honest and say that my move to the 7D was because of the difficulties I had with the EM5, if I hadn't sold the E5 and my long SHG glass I may not have made that move.

May I say that I think you would be best waiting for a while to see what the new camera has to offer - I myself am not making any commitments in any direction until a full assessment of it's capabilities is available.

Regards

David

Chevvyf1
2nd September 2013, 04:46 PM
Chevy,
I have to be honest and say that my move to the 7D was because of the difficulties I had with the EM5, if I hadn't sold the E5 and my long SHG glass I may not have made that move.

May I say that I think you would be best waiting for a while to see what the new camera has to offer - I myself am not making any commitments in any direction until a full assessment of it's capabilities is available.

Regards

David


:eek: :eek: :eek: david did you find that Oly SHG very heavy and difficult to manage ... vis birds overhead and turning to focus ? I find my arms just are not up "to that weight" there for any length of time and a tripod just does not permit fast and flexible to focus :(

Ian
2nd September 2013, 04:53 PM
Ask David how heavy his Canon EF 400mm f/4 is compared to the 50-200 f/2.8-3.5 SWD :)

Ian

David Morison
2nd September 2013, 05:01 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek: david did you find that Oly SHG very heavy and difficult to manage ... vis birds overhead and turning to focus ? I find my arms just are not up "to that weight" there for any length of time and a tripod just does not permit fast and flexible to focus :(

The 300mm f2.8 yes but the 50-200mm + EC14 was a nice package, and about the same weight and reach as the EF400mm f5.6. It's just the camera that makes the difference. If the E-M1 works out well then, as I still have the EC14, I will be looking for a 5-200mm.

David

catkins
2nd September 2013, 05:53 PM
What does a sparrowhawk do when it sees a rival on its territory? Well, in this case, when the rival is a reflection in a large window, it either wants to attack or to show off its wonderful feathers!

Well, in all the talk about the capabilities alleged or in reality of the impending OM-D E-M1, it was interesting to capture this image with the compact Olympus XZ-1 - a true grab shot, that I thought had missed the action!
A case of a few warning swoops, a patient wait for it to assert itself again, and woosh, that was it, gone in a second. Could I have caught this on my E-30? Yep, but its good to see what even the little camera will do, so maybe I should give the new E-M1 a workout?!!

This is quite unusual behaviour from a sparrowhawk and I'm amazed at how well the little camera has caught the action (despite reflections from inside the room).

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P8315896_resize_1200ps_wm.JPG (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65255)

brian1208
2nd September 2013, 06:26 PM
I believe that you simply can't just wave a camera and lens around at a flying bird in the vague hope of getting a great shot. I hope some of our esteemed bird photographers here can confirm that you need to do some advance planning, anticipating which direction the bird will be travelling in, establishing the right moment to start shooting and therefore locking focus and of course to use the correct camera modes and settings.

For example, C-AF requires continuous shooting in L-mode, not H-mode - which only focuses once at the beginning of the sequence. Using the correct selection of AF points is important, and steady tracking of your subject is also essential.

I'm personally keen to learn more about this so please do post hints and tips here if possible :)



I'm not sure about the "Esteemed" bit but you may find something of interest in my blog on shooting BIF with the EM-5

http://imagesfromnature.foliopic.com/article/my-experiences-using-the-olympus-om-d-for-shooting-birds-in-flight-4173

Ian
2nd September 2013, 06:27 PM
The 300mm f2.8 yes but the 50-200mm + EC14 was a nice package, and about the same weight and reach as the EF400mm f5.6. It's just the camera that makes the difference. If the E-M1 works out well then, as I still have the EC14, I will be looking for a 5-200mm.

David

Ah - my mistake, I thought you had a 400 f/4 (they are twice the weight of a 50-200 SWD..

Ian

Olybirder
2nd September 2013, 06:29 PM
That is a remarkable shot of the Sparrowhawk, Chris. You and the XZ-1 did a great job.

I wanted to give my E-30, which I raised from the dead on Friday, a test this evening, so I went out into the garden to see if there was anything to photograph in the evening light. The only thing on the move was this Lesser Black-backed Gull which flew overhead.

With all 11 AF points active and using S-AF mode I found that it focused quite well first time, allowing me to focus and take the shot instantaneously. It is reasonably easy when the bird is big, close and filling most of the frame. It is a pity that this never applies to birds which I want to photograph, such as Marsh Harriers!


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/1175/Evening_LBBG_1a.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65284)


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/1175/Evening_LBBG_2a.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65285)


http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/1175/Evening_LBBG_3a.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65286)


Ron

brian1208
2nd September 2013, 06:54 PM
A few random shots from my files, using the techniques described in my blog

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/oldcanon/EM-5%20flight%20shot%20sharpness/sharpnessinflight6100crop.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/oldcanon/EM-5%20flight%20shot%20sharpness/sharpnessinflight4.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/oldcanon/EM-5%20HCT/75-300vulture4-12-12.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/oldcanon/EM-5%20HCT/75-300snowy4-12-123.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/oldcanon/EM-5%20HCT/75-300lanner4-12-12.jpg

StephenL
2nd September 2013, 07:00 PM
That Owl is magic!

birdboy
2nd September 2013, 07:06 PM
I may have to hire that 90-250 lens off Ian & Julia very soon :) ... with a view to buying one (if I can develop the MUSCLE power to manage it, overhead and ahead :D but it is SO VERY VERY HEAVY and I am old, very old ... and wilting

Why do you want the 90-250mm f2.8 at 3.270kg and hand hold it? The 50-200mm f3.5 at 1000kgs is more manageable hand held. I few careful steps forward could produce just as good result. The SHG glass requires sturdy expensive tripods and gimbal heads IMHO.

Phill D
2nd September 2013, 07:15 PM
Brian I really enjoyed reading your articles, there are some really good tips there. One day I'll look forward to trying them out myself. The images everyone is posting here speak for themselves, really brilliant.

Chevvyf1
2nd September 2013, 07:22 PM
Why do you want the 90-250mm f2.8 at 3.270kg and hand hold it? The 50-200mm f3.5 at 1000kgs is more manageable hand held. I few careful steps forward could produce just as good result. The SHG glass requires sturdy expensive tripods and gimbal heads IMHO.

I have used the 300 (on hire from Ian) and just about managed it hand held and did get some great images :) ... the 50-200 even with the Tele Extn does well ... but not enough 'reach' for Hobbies and Eagles etc (in the wild) .

I think I would prefer the 90-250 because I prefer telephoto for Bif to prime :) IF I STICK with Oly :) and my E-5's :) for Bif

Phill D
2nd September 2013, 07:27 PM
I'm waiting to see what the EM-1 does for the old 70-300 lens. My hope is it will revitalise it making a good lightweight long range birding kit.

pvasc
2nd September 2013, 07:37 PM
I have used the 300 (on hire from Ian) and just about managed it hand held and did get some great images :) ... the 50-200 even with the Tele Extn does well ... but not enough 'reach' for Hobbies and Eagles etc (in the wild) .

I think I would prefer the 90-250 because I prefer telephoto for Bif to prime :) IF I STICK with Oly :) and my E-5's :) for Bif

Then the 90-250 won't work, it is shorter than the 50-200, and 1.4TC. 200x1.4=280. It's got to be just as heavy as the 300mm lens too.

Chevvyf1
2nd September 2013, 08:16 PM
I'm waiting to see what the EM-1 does for the old 70-300 lens. My hope is it will revitalise it making a good lightweight long range birding kit.

Phill, I did think about that one, BUT it has to be the 75-300 OM-D EM-5 lens ... as it is more compatible (with the build quality, I believe) ... not that I am into the Techie side of Kit :) ... iykwim :D

and as tele con or ex tubes are out (due to the the techie design of the "range" ... see Ian's post about no possibility because ... ? I forget ... in another That Camera thread ...

David Morison
2nd September 2013, 09:09 PM
What does a sparrowhawk do when it sees a rival on its territory? Well, in this case, when the rival is a reflection in a large window, it either wants to attack or to show off its wonderful feathers!

Well, in all the talk about the capabilities alleged or in reality of the impending OM-D E-M1, it was interesting to capture this image with the compact Olympus XZ-1 - a true grab shot, that I thought had missed the action!
A case of a few warning swoops, a patient wait for it to assert itself again, and woosh, that was it, gone in a second. Could I have caught this on my E-30? Yep, but its good to see what even the little camera will do, so maybe I should give the new E-M1 a workout?!!

This is quite unusual behaviour from a sparrowhawk and I'm amazed at how well the little camera has caught the action (despite reflections from inside the room).

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/P8315896_resize_1200ps_wm.JPG (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65255)

My dear Wife was recently dozing on the sofa in the conservatory (this happens frequently to both of us) with the doors open. She was aroused by a loud flapping noise to see a female Sparrowhawk take off from the back of the sofa, 12 inches from her head, and exit the conservatory in a panic. A few seconds later she heard a scuffle from behind the sofa and on inspection found a frightened but unharmed male Blackbird cowering on the floor, it eventually flew off into the bushes in the garden!

David

David Morison
2nd September 2013, 09:36 PM
I think to a certain extent my requirements are probably different most as far as BIF is concerned. While it's always rewarding to get a first class image of BIF, I tend to use my camera as a bird recording tool. On one local reserve I am responsible for keeping monthly records for all species and this means definitive ID of all birds I see even those at some distance. If there is a bird at distance that I can't ID with the binocs then I take a photograph that can be digitally magnified to assist me, if it is a bird in flight I might only have a few seconds to get the shots in and this is where instant acquisition and accurate tracking is vital. If it's a small fast bird at 100 metres the EM5 will likely only get the background whereas the Canon 7D does the job. I hope this explains why I am more critical than most of the BIF capabilities of the EM5.

David

brian1208
2nd September 2013, 09:54 PM
David - If it's a small fast bird at 100 metres the EM5 will likely only get the background whereas the Canon 7D does the job. I hope this explains why I am more critical than most of the BIF capabilities of the EM5.
makes perfect sense to me as I came from shooting BIF with the 7D + fast L glass, then latterly the 5Dmk2 and 60D BUT, for me the compromise to EM-5 had to be made as I was becoming unable to physically cope with the weight of the canon system

Compromises had to be made as I got older and more arthritic and better to have a 70% solution, always with me than a 90% one that spent most of the time on the shelf

I'm hoping the "EM-1" may reduce the gap further but I am discovering new / different techniques for BIFing with the EM-5 which are increasing my success rate, even with the small birds at distance (pre-focus and rediscovering the use of full-time MF being but two :) )

Ross the fiddler
2nd September 2013, 10:46 PM
I'm waiting to see what the EM-1 does for the old 70-300 lens. My hope is it will revitalise it making a good lightweight long range birding kit.

While the 70-300 lens produces nice images, the slow (& noisy) motor drive is not as good as the speed & lightness of the M75-300 lens & I'm keen to know how well it will perform in PD-AF mode on the E-M1. One of the annoyances of using it (M75-300 lens) for photographing birds, especially when they are closer perched somewhere, the lens zooms right past the bird in the foreground & hopefully the PD-AF of the E-M1 would have the reverse effect & focus on the foreground first. I believe (& hope) there will be the option to be able to select either PD-AF or CD-AF if the lens is capable of performing with both & the rumours seem to indicate the M75-300 will benefit from that.

Graham_of_Rainham
2nd September 2013, 11:50 PM
I don't do BIF, but I do appreciate good images of this subject when they are well produced.

I also have a genuine question. How was it done before auto focus and why can't it still be done that way *???

David M
3rd September 2013, 12:01 AM
It was done by learning to follow focus manually which is the way I still do it. Although I don't do as much bird photography these days as publication rates are so low.

Zuiko
3rd September 2013, 12:30 AM
It was done by learning to follow focus manually which is the way I still do it. Although I don't do as much bird photography these days as publication rates are so low.

Best to keep your hand in though, in case rates ever rise again. :rolleyes:

David M
3rd September 2013, 12:49 AM
John, I can only see rates continuing to drop. Having had a web site since '97 I closed it down in '09 as I was tired of dealing with people who expected me to give my work away.

Of course, rates were already dropping in the 90's. One of the British birding mags reduced their rates because they had readers photos they could use cheaply if their contributors didn't agree to the lower rates.

Zuiko
3rd September 2013, 01:50 AM
John, I can only see rates continuing to drop. Having had a web site since '97 I closed it down in '09 as I was tired of dealing with people who expected me to give my work away.

Of course, rates were already dropping in the 90's. One of the British birding mags reduced their rates because they had readers photos they could use cheaply if their contributors didn't agree to the lower rates.

Yeah, it seems to be a consequence of the digital age that now everybody is a photographer and having one of your pictures selected for publication is considered payment enough. :(

Ross the fiddler
3rd September 2013, 01:56 AM
I don't do BIF, but I do appreciate good images of this subject when they are well produced.

I also have a genuine question. How was it done before auto focus and why can't it still be done that way *???

It was done by learning to follow focus manually which is the way I still do it. Although I don't do as much bird photography these days as publication rates are so low.

It was probably easier with mechanically linked focus rings too & not 'focus by wire'.

birdboy
3rd September 2013, 08:11 AM
It was probably easier with mechanically linked focus rings too & not 'focus by wire'.

and that's where the 12-60mmswd and 50-200mm swd lenses score highly IMHO. They even have a distance scale.:) Oly needs a camera body that can get the best out of these lenses, they are a winner. I would still love to use MF but need a real time viewfinder that will assist in that use.

Chevvyf1
3rd September 2013, 08:16 AM
My dear Wife was recently dozing on the sofa in the conservatory (this happens frequently to both of us) with the doors open. She was aroused by a loud flapping noise to see a female Sparrowhawk take off from the back of the sofa, 12 inches from her head, and exit the conservatory in a panic. A few seconds later she heard a scuffle from behind the sofa and on inspection found a frightened but unharmed male Blackbird cowering on the floor, it eventually flew off into the bushes in the garden!

David

THAT is soo VERY amazing :) I think I would have feinted ... :D

Ian
3rd September 2013, 09:19 AM
Interesting - I had always assumed that C-AF in high speed continuous shooting mode slowed an E-5 down to about 3fps (from max 5fps) but I have learned that is not the case and any noticeable slow down is lens-specific (the speed of the iris mechanism is the limiting factor in some lenses).

Ian

Ian
3rd September 2013, 09:24 AM
Then the 90-250 won't work, it is shorter than the 50-200, and 1.4TC. 200x1.4=280. It's got to be just as heavy as the 300mm lens too.

This is correct - they weigh about the same and are physically very similar in size, too.

Another lens worth considering if you can find a second hand one is the Bigma (Sigma) 50-500 f/4-6.3. It is commendably light if quite long.

Ian

Ross the fiddler
3rd September 2013, 11:24 AM
and that's where the 12-60mmswd and 50-200mm swd lenses score highly IMHO. They even have a distance scale.:) Oly needs a camera body that can get the best out of these lenses, they are a winner. I would still love to use MF but need a real time viewfinder that will assist in that use.

I would have loved those lenses & maybe, just maybe... if the E-M1 can prove to be excellent with those lenses, then maybe..... oh well, I'm going to try & save up my cash before I ask my wife again. :rolleyes: ;)

Actually, the Sigma 150 macro lens has full time mechanical focus control too & I like that lens for that.

Grumpy Hec
3rd September 2013, 11:34 AM
and that's where the 12-60mmswd and 50-200mm swd lenses score highly IMHO. They even have a distance scale.:) Oly needs a camera body that can get the best out of these lenses, they are a winner. I would still love to use MF but need a real time viewfinder that will assist in that use.

and that's exactly what I'm hoping for. Along with my Sigma 150 and 140-400 I hope to be set. As long it handles with these large lenses I'll be a probable buyer if the spec looks good. I've even got cash earmarked. If the LCE Colchester branch has the body to view during their 21 Sept Olympus event it will be a key part of the decision making process.

Hec

Graptolite
3rd September 2013, 10:00 PM
I did hear the E-5 was Olympus' best C-AF Tracking camera but it required some rather exact settings to get it to work,
settings found by trial-and-error and not really specified in the proper manual.

Someone has a site with it all, but it cropped up on a DPReview thread and there's no way I could find it now...

I saw that on DPReview a while back and bookmarked it for future reference Ulfric. Here you go:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3285464#forum-post-50099629

Olybirder
3rd September 2013, 10:37 PM
I saw that on DPReview a while back and bookmarked it for future reference Ulfric. Here you go:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3285464#forum-post-50099629
That is very interesting but what is 'CAF Lock' and do I have it on my E-30?

Edit. Found it and it was already set as recommended.


Ron

Ross the fiddler
3rd September 2013, 10:50 PM
That is very interesting but what is 'CAF Lock' and do I have it on my E-30?

Ron

Yes. It's the 3rd one down in spanner A & turn off the
C release under spanner C.

Olybirder
3rd September 2013, 11:06 PM
Yes. It's the 3rd one down in spanner A & turn off the
C release under spanner C.
Thanks Ross. :) I had just edited my post above to say that I have now found it.

Ron

Olybirder
3rd September 2013, 11:24 PM
I am thinking of registering a 'My Mode' setting for BIF shots, using settings which stand a chance of getting a successful BIF shot in a hurry.

Off the top of my head it would comprise:

C-AF
NDynamic-single target AF mode
ISO 400 (?)
IS Off
Spot metering
+.7 EV (?)

Does anybody have any thoughts on those settings or any other suggestions?

Ron

Graptolite
4th September 2013, 10:55 AM
I am thinking of registering a 'My Mode' setting for BIF shots, using settings which stand a chance of getting a successful BIF shot in a hurry.

Off the top of my head it would comprise:

C-AF
NDynamic-single target AF mode
ISO 400 (?)
IS Off
Spot metering
+.7 EV (?)

Does anybody have any thoughts on those settings or any other suggestions?

Ron

Maybe also Continuous shooting L-mode as suggested by Ian at the very start of this thread?
Personally I'd also use a higher ISO to get a faster shutter speed, although I seldom go above ISO 800.

Olybirder
4th September 2013, 11:36 AM
Maybe also Continuous shooting L-mode as suggested by Ian at the very start of this thread?
Personally I'd also use a higher ISO to get a faster shutter speed, although I seldom go above ISO 800.
Thanks David. I always have 'Sequential L' set as the default. When I had a My Mode 'BIF' setting before I used ISO 800 but it often seemed a little high as these settings are for photographing birds against a plain sky which is usually quite bright. They won't work when the bird is against a backdrop such as trees or reeds, as that requires the single AF point mode in order to focus on the bird rather than the background.

Unless I have missed something, it is not possible to edit the My Mode settings, which is a pity. As I understand it, you have to get all the settings how you want them and then assign them to My Mode 1 or My Mode 2. There doesn't appear to be a way to call up those settings, change one item and save the change. You have to start from scratch again. Is this correct?

Ron

StephenL
4th September 2013, 11:40 AM
Unless I have missed something, it is not possible to edit the My Mode settings, which is a pity. As I understand it, you have to get all the settings how you want them and then assign them to My Mode 1 or My Mode 2. There doesn't appear to be a way to call up those settings, change one item and save the change. You have to start from scratch again. Is this correct?

Ron
Surely all you have to do is re-save that "My mode" as it is in the camera.

bilbo
5th September 2013, 09:37 AM
Here are a couple of gannet shots from Bempton. The exif is in the images.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/brianfarrell/P5268027efss11.jpg (http://s197.photobucket.com/user/brianfarrell/media/P5268027efss11.jpg.html)

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/brianfarrell/P5268024ess.jpg (http://s197.photobucket.com/user/brianfarrell/media/P5268024ess.jpg.html)

And an easier one:

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/brianfarrell/P5268153ess.jpg (http://s197.photobucket.com/user/brianfarrell/media/P5268153ess.jpg.html)

All taken using E3, SWD 50-200 with EC14.

birdboy
5th September 2013, 12:54 PM
Great shots Bilbo. Beautiful birds with some of the best face makeup around. My fav is the first one. It looks like you had a fantastic day and really good light as well. We went to Bempton Cliffs back in 2008 then I had an Olympus c765UZ. I got very frustrated trying to take pictures of ganets and puffins in flight. 3 months latter I brought the E3 and the two swd lenses. Last year I brought the E5 and remain hopeful that the solution of a new body will improve the AF tracking for BIF. I think that the main difference between the Canon 7D and the E5 for BIF is the sensor size 12 megapixels cf with 18 megapixels. The need to crop BIF should not be underestimated and for that you need more pixels.

You must be hoping for a body that outperform your E3.

bilbo
5th September 2013, 01:27 PM
Great shots Bilbo. Beautiful birds with some of the best face makeup around. My fav is the first one. It looks like you had a fantastic day and really good light as well. We went to Bempton Cliffs back in 2008 then I had an Olympus c765UZ. I got very frustrated trying to take pictures of ganets and puffins in flight. 3 months latter I brought the E3 and the two swd lenses. Last year I brought the E5 and remain hopeful that the solution of a new body will improve the AF tracking for BIF. I think that the main difference between the Canon 7D and the E5 for BIF is the sensor size 12 megapixels cf with 18 megapixels. The need to crop BIF should not be underestimated and for that you need more pixels.

You must be hoping for a body that outperform your E3.Thanks. Yes - the light was great (that's the beautifully blue North Sea there!) and I got sunburn... I held off from buying the E-5 because I couldn't see much of an improvement over the E-3. My main grouse, slightly off topic for this thread, has to do with high ISO performance and, well, I couldn't justify spending another grand for the improvements which the E-5 gave. So yes, I'm very interested to see what Oly can do for me this time.

Chevvyf1
5th September 2013, 02:02 PM
Bilbo - that first image is STUNNING ! so sharp :)

I have just FINALLY captured Swallows and Swifts in flight :EEK:

followed settings Ulfric posted a hotlink to ... Great stuff Ulfric :) shall post a few frames later on ...

Ulfric M Douglas
5th September 2013, 07:26 PM
...followed settings Ulfric posted a hotlink to ... Great stuff Ulfric :) shall post a few frames later on ...
Err, I mentioned it,
Graptolite dredged it up for us all ;
I saw that on DPReview a while back and bookmarked it for future reference Ulfric. Here you go:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3285464#forum-post-50099629
but the interesting thing is, that wasn't the thread/link I remembered at all!

There was a link to further tweaks involving the focus-point selection being centre+one rather than just centre or the whole diamond, and it intrigued me that the E-5 was the only camera from Olympus to have such varied selections.
(I didn't investigate if the E-30 had such also)

Ian
5th September 2013, 09:43 PM
The E-3, E-30 and E-5 have the same AF sensor and so the same sensor points and patterns, but the E-5 does seem to have a higher-performance, possibly because of improved algorithms or processing power or a combination of both.

Ian

birdboy
5th September 2013, 10:12 PM
The E-3, E-30 and E-5 have the same AF sensor and so the same sensor points and patterns, but the E-5 does seem to have a higher-performance, possibly because of improved algorithms or processing power or a combination of both.

Ian

If the new camera is aimed at using the FT glass utilizing the faster PDAF does it mean that the new body will be thicker than the OMD and incorporating a flappy mirror for the autofocus sensor, or has Oly found a way of PDAF through the main sensor? Answer to be revealed in 6 days and counting.:D

Ian
6th September 2013, 04:59 PM
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/511/P9060605.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65395)

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/511/P9060606.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65396)

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/511/P9060607.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65397)

Taken with... m.Zuiko 75-300 @300mm

Ian

Chevvyf1
6th September 2013, 05:51 PM
Ian that is pretty good. In fact, excellent for the lens and the focal length - I have no idea of the lens cost ? what were your other settings ? S ? and f ?

However, Fat collared doves/pigeons are not comparable with Red Kites - who are lean and FASSSST and fly much higher ... except for dropping down at food when the speed is inestimable :)

Ian
6th September 2013, 05:59 PM
C'mon Chevvy :) - pigeons are relatively small and often very fast. Big red kites are, in my experience, much easier to catch on camera. Mind you a wood pigeon wasn't fast enough to avoid the top of my car's windscreen yesterday :(

Ian

PS These are crops of just 14% of the original frame (about 2.2MP), ISO 640, f/7.1, 1/1600th
PPS 75-300 list price is, I think, £499 these days?

StephenL
6th September 2013, 06:10 PM
SRS have it for £395.

David Morison
6th September 2013, 06:17 PM
Wood pigeons are pretty fast flyers but usually fly in fairly straight lines so good for panning practice. Red kites are much slower and although less predictable they change direction in a more stately fashion. I find one of the more difficult subjects is a Wood Pigeon that suddenly bursts from cover only to reach the next tree in what seems like nano seconds.

David

Chevvyf1
6th September 2013, 07:40 PM
C'mon Chevvy :) - pigeons are relatively small and often very fast. Big red kites are, in my experience, much easier to catch on camera. Mind you a wood pigeon wasn't fast enough to avoid the top of my car's windscreen yesterday :(

Ian

PS These are crops of just 14% of the original frame (about 2.2MP), ISO 640, f/7.1, 1/1600th
PPS 75-300 list price is, I think, £499 these days?


oooh ! Ian, it is a MAYBE then :) ...

help me please ... can the m43 lens go on the E5 ? and does it need an adapter ? and ??? BIG Q can I put a Tele Con to extend the focal length ???

StephenL
6th September 2013, 07:43 PM
No, no, and no.

It is a m4/3 lens which requires an m4/3 camera.

PeterBirder
6th September 2013, 08:46 PM
No, no, and no.

It is a m4/3 lens which requires an m4/3 camera.

But the E-PL5 and OMD E-M5 have a Digital Teleconverter which appears to work quite well. See this thread. http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28601

Maybe you should re-consider micro four thirds Chevvy.:eek:

brian1208
6th September 2013, 10:03 PM
it must be me but I have never been able to get what I consider an acceptably sharp result using the digital TC on my EM-5,

I'd love to know how others manage it as I have seen some excellent results but mine always have visible artefacts and look blurred compared to a 50% crop of the same shot without the TC

Ross the fiddler
7th September 2013, 12:40 AM
oooh ! Ian, it is a MAYBE then :) ...

help me please ... can the m43 lens go on the E5 ? and does it need an adapter ? and ??? BIG Q can I put a Tele Con to extend the focal length ???

I think you need to go to one of the events & have a good play with the new (& last year's) OM-D & PEN's & get the feel for what they are & actually how nice they are with the lenses that benefitted in being reduced in size. Also to get a clearer understanding of the Micro 4/3's mount in comparison to the original 4/3's mount (with a flappy mirror behind it).

*chr

Ross the fiddler
7th September 2013, 12:47 AM
it must be me but I have never been able to get what I consider an acceptably sharp result using the digital TC on my EM-5,

I'd love to know how others manage it as I have seen some excellent results but mine always have visible artefacts and look blurred compared to a 50% crop of the same shot without the TC

Maybe the shutter speed could have been causing the issue. There can be an odd 'shutter shock' situation around 1/80 sec & if that is the case then using a 1/8 sec shutter delay would be sufficient to get around that in those circumstances. You can leave that value set for shutter delay (anti-shock) & select it from the 'drive mode' selection, if & when needed. But, also there is a usable minimum shutter speed to focal length to be considered too, which is better with the 5 axis IS of the E-M5 & E-P5 (& soon to be announced E-M1), but still has its limits for hand holding.

pvasc
7th September 2013, 07:41 AM
it must be me but I have never been able to get what I consider an acceptably sharp result using the digital TC on my EM-5,

I'd love to know how others manage it as I have seen some excellent results but mine always have visible artefacts and look blurred compared to a 50% crop of the same shot without the TC

I used to notice that too, until the new firmware update in June. So it was either that or I started paying more attention to the histogram and exposing more to the right side that cleared the artifacts out of the dark areas. If you are using the 40-150, stop it down to F8, I find it is not that great wide open in some situations, and it is noticeable with the TC.

bilbo
7th September 2013, 08:47 AM
it must be me but I have never been able to get what I consider an acceptably sharp result using the digital TC on my EM-5,

I'd love to know how others manage it as I have seen some excellent results but mine always have visible artefacts and look blurred compared to a 50% crop of the same shot without the TCWhich one are you using? 1.4x or 2x?

EDIT: Just noticed that you have the OMD which I don't know so my question might be irrelevant...

pvasc
7th September 2013, 09:41 AM
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/511/P9060605.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65395)

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/511/P9060606.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65396)

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/511/P9060607.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65397)

Taken with... m.Zuiko 75-300 @300mm

Ian
Nice shots, that 75-300mm is a good lens, was this with the OMD E-M5???

Ian
7th September 2013, 09:46 AM
Nice shots, that 75-300mm is a good lens, was this with the OMD E-M5???

Do you think this sequence of shots would have been possible on an E-M5?

Ian

birdboy
7th September 2013, 09:52 AM
I would have been more impressed if these had been shot with a 50-200mm swd lens. I presume you chose pigeons as that is what is around Leicester Square:D

pvasc
7th September 2013, 09:52 AM
Do you think this sequence of shots would have been possible on an E-M5?

Ian
Oh my. Is that one sweep of the wings? I only have the E-PL5 and it can't do that, so my answer is no. Time to start saving my pennies.

Zuiko
7th September 2013, 09:55 AM
I would have been more impressed if these had been shot with a 50-200mm swd lens. I presume you chose pigeons as that is what is around Leicester Square:D

Ah, but we know a 50-200mm can do that but we didn't know a 75-300mm could. Now, what if there was a camera that could do this with either lens? *chr

birdboy
7th September 2013, 10:23 AM
Ah, but we know a 50-200mm can do that but we didn't know a 75-300mm could. Now, what if there was a camera that could do this with either lens? *chr

We know it can do it on an E5. Isn't this supposed to be a solution for FT lenses? Shame about no exif can't understand why.:D

Ross the fiddler
7th September 2013, 11:17 AM
Do you think this sequence of shots would have been possible on an E-M5?

Ian

Do you mean I will have to start saving that cash & convince my wife that it is essential I buy _______ to go with my M75-300 lens & to use the other 4/3's lenses on? :eek:

pvasc
7th September 2013, 07:39 PM
Oh my. Is that one sweep of the wings? I only have the E-PL5 and it can't do that, so my answer is no. Time to start saving my pennies.

After more thought, I think your point is what ever camera you're using is tracking the pigeon quite well, with a m4/3 lens, that is CDAF. I was thinking a higher FPS sequential rate at first.

timmypreston
7th September 2013, 08:08 PM
The WORST thing about CHANGE is when it is ENFORCED ON YOU !

and i feel that Oly are forcing me to Canon because they are not interested in the Bif market! That may be a fact now and they have given up on that Market Share as it would cost too much to capture a dramatic share to cover all the engineering etc costs to Stock/sales - sensible business plan ...

Being forced or looking for an escape route?

I am sorry Chevvy but I haven't seen consistently high quality images produced by you to suggest that your ability now outweighs the capabilities of your camera. I get the impression you are perhaps more interested in owning the latest greatest equipment rather than actually practicing techniques and learning what your camera can do in each situation?

This is my personal opinion, it frustrates me when people question a cameras capability before actually looking at their own techniques or methods. There are many fantastic images in this thread which contradict the fact that Olympus are not interested in the BIF market......

Oh by the way I'm quite pleased with BIF from my basic old E400/420

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7381/9086666531_339c159927_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33153464@N07/9086666531/)
Common Buzzard Dothill 19062013 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33153464@N07/9086666531/) by Tim J Preston (http://www.flickr.com/people/33153464@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2875/9561066937_dc9b305022_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33153464@N07/9561066937/)
Canada Goose Takes flight Dothill 21082013 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33153464@N07/9561066937/) by Tim J Preston (http://www.flickr.com/people/33153464@N07/), on Flickr

It's been known to do Kites too
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8532/8482518659_d36b832c32_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33153464@N07/8482518659/)
Red Kite Bwlch Nant yr Arian (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33153464@N07/8482518659/) by Tim J Preston (http://www.flickr.com/people/33153464@N07/), on Flickr

David M
7th September 2013, 11:54 PM
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/4270305.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/39672)

Manually focused shot taken with an E-3 and the legacy OM 350mm plus a 1.4x TC.
70% of the frame.
ISO 100
1/500 second shutter speed.
Aperture priority, either f/4 or 5.6
Tripod mounted using a ball head.
The Osprey's not flying straight and level, it's being harassed by a Herring Gull trying to steal the White Sucker. There's a shot of the Herring Gull with the fish in my gallery.

David Morison
8th September 2013, 06:13 AM
Being forced or looking for an escape route?

I am sorry Chevvy but I haven't seen consistently high quality images produced by you to suggest that your ability now outweighs the capabilities of your camera. I get the impression you are perhaps more interested in owning the latest greatest equipment rather than actually practicing techniques and learning what your camera can do in each situation?

This is my personal opinion, it frustrates me when people question a cameras capability before actually looking at their own techniques or methods. There are many fantastic images in this thread which contradict the fact that Olympus are not interested in the BIF market......


I think Chevvy is looking to upgrade from the E5 to an OMD type sensor which is a reasonable and understandable desire. However as she has had some success with the E5 and BIFs she is concerned that she doesn't take a backward step with an upgrade and has keenly watched the debate on the possible capabilities of the new OMD. Emphasising the option of moving to another make that is acknowledged, hitherto, as giving superior results in BIF autofocus is not looking for an escape route but just for a way forward, she wants to obtain the best kit she can afford for her needs.

I myself went through the same scenario and purchased a Canon to satisfy the BIF needs, that was not an escape but a rational move IMO and was indeed the right choice - it is a league ahead. However I still have the OMD and appreciate it's finer points - if a new OMD camera satisfied my BIF needs then I may choose to investigate that option. None of us are physically trapped into only using one make of camera, although some may be psychologically or financially restricted to one, but a move to another can never be termed an escape.

Just my opinion.

David

timmypreston
8th September 2013, 10:15 AM
I think Chevvy is looking to upgrade from the E5 to an OMD type sensor which is a reasonable and understandable desire. However as she has had some success with the E5 and BIFs

Just my opinion.

David

My point exactly, the camera is capable. If there is something wrong with the fundamental technique of the user then a new body will make minimal difference to the outcome of future images but it will certainly lead to more frustration long term for the user.

Birds in flight are moving, very often fast but also erratically. You have the wing motion, the body moving up and down, the head moving the forward propulsion and if you consider the distance they are away from you there are a lot of things to go wrong in the time it takes to press the shutter.

If your panning technique is not spot on you will get focusing issues and blur, don't forget camera shake, they are often against a bright sky or a busy background making it hard to track your subject, If your shutter speed is too slow you will not only miss the shot but the opportunity, a bird isn't likely to come back for a second lap while you make a couple of adjustments.

Chevvyf1
8th September 2013, 08:42 PM
Being forced or looking for an escape route?

1. I am sorry Chevvy but I haven't seen consistently high quality images produced by you to suggest that your ability now outweighs the capabilities of your camera. I get the impression you are perhaps more interested in owning the latest greatest equipment rather than actually practicing techniques and learning what your camera can do in each situation?

2. This is my personal opinion, it frustrates me when people question a cameras capability before actually looking at their own techniques or methods. There are many fantastic images in this thread which contradict the fact that Olympus are not interested in the BIF market......

3. Oh by the way I'm quite pleased with BIF from my basic old E400/420





1. ERRR :rolleyes:

a) I am not sorry you have not seen My FAV/BEST Bif images :D Perhaps if YOU LOOK you may *chr

1. b) IF YOU SURMISE I THINK "my ability now outweighs the capabilities of my E-5 camera" you are NOT ON HERE ENOUGH or UP TO DATE with MY opine of the E-5 AT ALL - I would suggest you READ MORE ! THEN COMMENT :D

1. c) IF YOU " ... get the impression you are perhaps more interested in owning the latest greatest equipment rather than actually practicing techniques and learning what your camera can do in each situation?" again, READ MORE - I have been trying a friends old I REPEAT OLD Nikon D300 and 200-500 lens :rolleyes: and considering the CANON 7D and OLD lens ... :rolleyes:

... and I have E-1 x 3 which I do regularly USE :) OLD KIT ! Vintage *chr

1. d) ... again READ MORE ... As I have been in communication on HERE about the E-5 and recently commented/thanked/tried various with my E-5


2. a) ... It frustrates me when others makes a "handful of comments as above - putting their head above to be shot down - with little real knowledge of facts in the case ... " :eek:

2. b) HAVE YOU USED ? READ REVIEWS ? OR EVEN READ OUR IANs comments here on the E-5 ??? obviously not, or you would not have written this :rolleyes:


2. c) ... Well if Olympus is so good at Bif - WHY ? not more sales to Olympus E-5 (even E400; E420 ?) and why are Canon and Nikon doing so well in Bif and other Sports markets ? (errm MY FACTS can be substantiated - can yours ?)


3. I am so very pleased for you ;)


It is NOT my opinion that those seeking "the latest, greatest kit" only want to own it

Chevvyf1
8th September 2013, 08:54 PM
http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/511/P9060605.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65395)

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/511/P9060606.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65396)

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/511/P9060607.jpg (http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/65397)

Taken with... m.Zuiko 75-300 @300mm

Ian



Ian, is the 75-300 equiv of 150-600 - thus these were 600 ?

timmypreston
8th September 2013, 09:53 PM
I have seen your images Chevvy, I have been a member since 2009. I visit the forum daily. I tend not to make comments for the sake of commenting. I look at every single thread in Foto Fair and looking for improvement.

I have no intentions of being shot down and when you have finished ranting and read it properly you may realise the point i am trying to get across is that there is more to BIF than the kit as "our Ian" states in the opening of this very thread!

You use Flickr, search Olympus E5 bird in flight

Is there really any need for the use for capitals?

Zuiko
9th September 2013, 12:37 AM
OK Tim and Chevvy, I can sense friction developing between you and experience tells me that by the nature of photo forums this will not end well. I'm sure if you were having a chat in a pub with something nice in your glass and was able to see each others facial expressions you would get a better context of each other's remarks and you'd simply grin and offer to buy each other another drink.

That's not possible on the forum, so I suggest that you both pause, take a deep breath and allow the thread to change course. :)

Thank you. *chr

Ian
9th September 2013, 07:37 AM
Ian, is the 75-300 equiv of 150-600 - thus these were 600 ?

That is correct - 600mm equivalence.

Ian

Chevvyf1
9th September 2013, 10:05 AM
That is correct - 600mm equivalence.

Ian


WoW !


That could be the VERY ANSWER *chr


Ian, Do m4/3rd lenses work on E-5 ? :eek:

and Stephen L says £395 at SRS :)

Ian
9th September 2013, 10:25 AM
WoW !


That could be the VERY ANSWER *chr


Ian, Do m4/3rd lenses work on E-5 ? :eek:

and Stephen L says £395 at SRS :)

Chevvy, you need another cuppa! You've asked about lens compatibility how many times? :)

The answer won't change: Micro Four Thirds lenses can only work on Micro Four Thirds bodies but Four Thirds lenses can be fitted to Micro Four Thirds bodies via an adapter.

Ian

PS Just to be very sure, the 150-600 equivalence is compared to Full Frame cameras. 300mm on an E-5 (Four Thirds) is exactly the same power as 300mm on Micro Four Thirds.

PeterBirder
9th September 2013, 10:25 AM
Ian, Do m4/3rd lenses work on E-5 ? :eek:

Chevvy you asked this question in post #129 of this thread. The answer was given in post #130 and is still the same, unfortunately no.:)

Regards.*chr

Oops, shouldn't answer for other people.:o

Ian
9th September 2013, 10:29 AM
And it's not Olympus sneakily forcing you to buy Micro Four Thirds; one of the technical advantages of Micro Four Thirds is that the lens mount can be much closer to the sensor (slimmer body design). This enables the optics of many lenses, especially wide angle lenses, to be more compact in design. The Micro Four Thirds adapter is basically a spacer to restore the distance required to mount and focus a Four Thirds lens on a Micro Four Thirds body.

Ian

Chevvyf1
9th September 2013, 10:46 AM
Chevvy, you need another cuppa! You've asked about lens compatibility how many times? :)

The answer won't change: Micro Four Thirds lenses can only work on Micro Four Thirds bodies but Four Thirds lenses can be fitted to Micro Four Thirds bodies via an adapter.

Ian

PS Just to be very sure, the 150-600 equivalence is compared to Full Frame cameras. 300mm on an E-5 (Four Thirds) is exactly the same power as 300mm on Micro Four Thirds.

... sorry ;)

DerekW
9th September 2013, 11:15 AM
Micro Four thirds lenses are taking us back to the era of the 35mm rangefinder cameras, when the lens was close to the film plane.

When the SLR came along, the lens had to be moved further away from the film to allow the mirror to flap about. This required all the lenses for SLRs to be redesigned, to much moaning from the users of 35mm range finder cameras who lost their favourite lenses if they transferred to SLRs. Fortunately the number of people using cut film and plate cameras was small and so their opinions could be ignored in the move to SLRs as well as 35mm rangefinders. They just continued taking excellent clear well composed images at the rate of about one or two a day and probably achieving a better hit rate than the DSLR user. <g>

Chevvyf1
10th September 2013, 07:19 PM
Ian, I have had my mind elsewhere these two days - apologies for repetition, not much has been sinking in :(


I have just seen this - the 75-300 and Owl Bif


http://www.olympus.co.uk/site/en/c/cameras/om_d_system_cameras/om_d/e_m1/index.html?f=feature3



I have to say THANK YOU for this thread - and yes :) I did pre order with a few lenses this morning :) :cool: so thats good news for Olympus and this 4M

as the many other pre orders from here today :)

Phill D
10th September 2013, 07:43 PM
Is it better to order from Oly or go through a local supplier?
Are the offers the same? and will the availability be the same?

brian1208
10th September 2013, 08:30 PM
I've pre-ordered mine through Wex, mainly because they are my supplier of choice. I couldn't see any difference in the offers, you still have to register with Olympus to be in the running for the free grip / MMS (for existing E owners only if I understand correctly). On the Olympus site the grip is said to be fist come, first served with limited supply

Chevvyf1
10th September 2013, 08:56 PM
I've pre-ordered mine through Wex, mainly because they are my supplier of choice. I couldn't see any difference in the offers, you still have to register with Olympus to be in the running for the free grip / MMS (for existing E owners only if I understand correctly). On the Olympus site the grip is said to be fist come, first served with limited supply

someone :cool: said SRS offer grip; mms & backpack *chr