PDA

View Full Version : Verrry Interesting Discusssion


JohnI
3rd October 2012, 03:15 PM
Looks like I may not have to sell my 4/3rds lenses to the scrapper for the price of their metal, after all . . .

http://www.pekkapotka.com/journal/2012/10/2/discussion-with-mr-terada.html

John

Zuiko
3rd October 2012, 04:55 PM
Looks like I may not have to sell my 4/3rds lenses to the scrapper for the price of their metal, after all . . .

http://www.pekkapotka.com/journal/2012/10/2/discussion-with-mr-terada.html

John

Thanks, John, very interesting. :)

StephenL
3rd October 2012, 05:05 PM
An interesting discussion, which emphasises the constraints being put on development by Olympuses business shenannigans.

Ulfric M Douglas
3rd October 2012, 05:57 PM
Of all the danged-nabbin ; "...Because of confidentiality I can't write more on this."

Sufferin' sukkutash.

s4ean
3rd October 2012, 07:57 PM
I suppose I can wait a little longer and see what comes of this... maybe I'll rent an E-5 for my next wedding in June, or just rent some Canon equipment while the 35-100 sits on the shelf. Not particularly fond of anything shot over 400 iso with the E-30. A guy sure would have some business if by some magic he could swap a sensor out of an E-M5 into an E-5 or E-30.

Grumpy Hec
4th October 2012, 06:58 AM
All of the hints we see from various sources would seem to point to a body which will take 4/3 lenses and allow them to be fully effective. That is of course very good but reading between the lines I sense that the body itself will continue to comply with the mantra that small is best.

I for one would find that very disappointing indeed if that turns out to be the case. Whilst the OMD is a great camera in terms of what it does, for me it is simply way too small for comfortable handing even with the grip. Perhaps I am in a minority in this but for me the general trend, not just in this particular matter, towards smaller and smaller is starting to ignore simple ergonomic factors.

Not for the first time I plead with Olympus to make this new body bigger than the OMD, maybe E620 or E30 size at least, as for people like me the handling issue is starting to make me seriously consider that I should move away from Olympus. Clearly it is too early yet to make that call but it is now a consideration for me because of this specific matter. The OMD line could continue with that smaller size trend but the 4/3 biased body could stick with the larger body to great advantage, think of the tech you could cram in and great screen, for those of us who prefer something more substantial in their hands but which is not as big as some of the Canikon behemoths.

Moan over

Hec

Roy Clarke
4th October 2012, 08:15 AM
I sense that the body itself will continue to comply with the mantra that small is best.

I for one would find that very disappointing indeed if that turns out to be the case. Whilst the OMD is a great camera in terms of what it does, for me it is simply way too small for comfortable handing even with the grip. Perhaps I am in a minority in this but for me the general trend, not just in this particular matter, towards smaller and smaller is starting to ignore simple ergonomic factors.



Hec
I don't think we are the minority on this issue. I need an E3/5 size body to be comfortable with fourthirds lenses.

How about a show of hands. Who wants a full sized camera?

Roy

csm1957
4th October 2012, 08:21 AM
+1 Hec and Roy


I haven't posted here in a while (work, degree study, blah, blah) but I always check on how everyone is doing when I can and when I saw Hec's post it actually encapsulated everything I have been thinking.
All my E cameras have battery packs on. My OM's had power winders. I have large hands and I just find anything smaller than an E-620 a little uncomfortable to use. I have tried the OMD with the grip and it is still a little too small and I don't want to have to buy m4/3 lenses.
I understand why Olympus is going the way it is going in terms of m4/3 etc, - understand, but selfishly don't agree.
I was hoping that there would be an E-7 or an E-50 ( I had even started saving up the pennies) but I honestly don't think there will be and for those of us who don't want to move the m4/3 way, we will be left with what we might consider a compromise in order to continue using Olympus or a move to another marque.
I have started thinking about the latter (even looking at cameras). If Olympus come out with a larger camera than the OMD for 4/3 before I make the jump, then I may stay. I love the Zuiko lenses. I know its stupidly emotive and immature, but I feel as let down by Olympus now as I did when the OM's bit the dust all those years ago.

art frames
4th October 2012, 09:33 AM
When I bought my E3 it was the result of Ian inviting members here to come along to some UK launch events. It was great marketing. At the session I also took the chance to try all of the big and expensive lenses and was captivated and the desire to own one was enormous.

I bought the E3 instantly. But the lenses were beyond me. That was then - money was tight.

My position over the last couple of years has changed. I could now afford the top lenses but the desire has all but gone. I have lost interest and not bought what I assume would be highly profitable items for the company. But I would also say they lost interest in me first or at least - I feel that.

Having spent my working life in marketing and PR I continue to be horrified by the way that communication is now being handled. These leaks and 'off-the-record' chats are just not helping deliver a coherent, or believable message.

Olympus has my address, my email and probably my phone number from when I register products. They have a list of what I own. I am amazed that they don't use it to communicate (even basic things like we have upgraded your firmware to improve your camera). Talk to me regularly - not just to sell things. Rather than hoping I will read between the lines of a poorly translated rumour or two.

They also have in this site one of the most loyal and positive places to engage in a far more open discussion (within clear limits of course). The absence of good, regular conversation is obvious - in a vacuum people look for rumour or gossip. But that is a frustrating and in the end pointless exercise. Conversations become negative and the brand weakened.

And that is my point. I haven't bought the lenses I know I would love because of the vacuum, and resultant feelings of being ignored. So my lifetime value to Olympus is lessened, and so the spiral down continues.....

I ought to learn to avoid looking....

Ulfric M Douglas
4th October 2012, 11:02 AM
If I had those BIG SHG lenses I'd want a body to match ... but make mine an E-1/E-30, not an E-3/5 size.

StephenL
4th October 2012, 11:29 AM
I see room for both styles/sizes of body. The E-M5 for people like me who want an easily-portable kit, and a larger body, maybe just over E-620 size, perhaps E-30, for people who want to continue to use the larger weatherproofed lenses. Shouldn't be too hard to have the same sensor in both bodies.

Benedict
4th October 2012, 11:56 AM
Canon and Nikon have brought their nw FF offerings to market. Okay so Oly has had its share of internal politics,but the planning process doesn't or shouldn't stop because of problems within other areas of the Company. They are still not truly revealing their future plans; smokescreens and mirrors appears to be the order of the day.

I am beginning to convince myself that for too long Oly have rested on their laurels on past successes whilst not addressing the future demands facing us photographers,whilst their competitors have forged ahead.

Am I alone in this view?

benvendetta
4th October 2012, 12:02 PM
If I had those BIG SHG lenses I'd want a body to match ... but make mine an E-1/E-30, not an E-3/5 size.

It has been stated on this very forum recently that there isn't much difference in size between the pro E series bodies, so what gives?

Grumpy Hec
4th October 2012, 01:04 PM
Interesting response to my earlier post. I think it's fair to say that Olympus are at risk of losing the loyalty of some of it's existing devotee's. This is of course pre-judging the E7/EMD7 or what ever it will be but the general thrust judging by the reponses thus far is that some of us may defect depending on what this new body turns out to be.

I'm happy to state that, finances allowing, if the body is another small one I will begin look to move to another system which appears to have a commitment to reasonable sized camers bodies. This does not refect IQ and other such matters it's purely on handling. There would be no rush as my E3 would not suddenly stop taking good images and the limiting factor on quality would remain as me but I would then be able to consider all options available at the time at my leisure.

Hec

Chevvyf1
4th October 2012, 01:40 PM
If I had those BIG SHG lenses I'd want a body to match ... but make mine an E-1/E-30, not an E-3/5 size.

I am looking for a body to match ... my slim legs :)

Actually, I will look forwared to your comments not published here due to confidentiality :) ... with glee :)

I do not have big hands - but like a camera to "feel right" the E-5 feels "right" with every lens I put on it" ... I cannot cope with compac cameras - they are too small and fiddly and I do not have respect for them :)

Chevvyf1
4th October 2012, 01:44 PM
Interesting response to my earlier post. I think it's fair to say that Olympus are at risk of losing the loyalty of some of it's existing devotee's. This is of course pre-judging the E7/EMD7 or what ever it will be but the general thrust judging by the reponses thus far is that some of us may defect depending on what this new body turns out to be.

I'm happy to state that, finances allowing, if the body is another small one I will begin look to move to another system which appears to have a commitment to reasonable sized camers bodies. This does not refect IQ and other such matters it's purely on handling. There would be no rush as my E3 would not suddenly stop taking good images and the limiting factor on quality would remain as me but I would then be able to consider all options available at the time at my leisure.

Hec


Hear ! Hear ! ... There are a lot of OM-D users selling "previous kit" be it Oly or *aniko* and a lot more to follow when the new OM-D lenses flood into the market :) and those big kit prices will fall ...

It never ceases to amaze me that no matter how MASSIVE the Company, they do not LISTEN and seem to believe themselves IMMUNE from losing 30% of their Loyal Market when Negative Press issues leak and flood their markets ! :) Olympus LISTEN and Watch out :) .. please :eek:

crimbo
4th October 2012, 04:48 PM
So.... assuming the new body for the 4/3 lenses does appear.... where should it try to position itself in the market. It cannot just be for the subset of users who get the money together to have a more modern body for the lenses they already have...

Ulfric M Douglas
4th October 2012, 05:45 PM
Chris you've hit the nail on the head : that's exactly why Olympus haven't updated their 620, they really want to sell micro-4/3rds stuff and maybe want to drop the manufacture of 4/3rds lenses ...

JohnI
4th October 2012, 06:16 PM
I have a certain amount of sympathy – bordering on true respect – for Terada. Consider where Olympus was, and is still in the process of attempting to overcome. A potentially company-breaking financial scandal. Terribly behind in sensor technology. Losing market share. And, from the comments he made, out of money, which is to say that no help was forthcoming from the medical division.

So. Strategy. First he comes out with a truly game-changing mirrorless enthusiast system. It put Olympus on more front pages than anything else they’ve done since the E-1 and I would like to think it is highly profitable. It is definitely a top competitor in its segment for market share.

Thus, Olympus is still capable of leading the pack with a model that goes outside the commonly accepted box.

Next, if you were in his position and had to re-invent the DSLR to compete with all the FF and APSC battlewagons out there, would you settle for a weatherproofed E-30 with as many bits and bobs from the EM-5 you could stuff inside it? I think not. Such a model would be a failure before it ever hit the market and do absolutely no good for The Future of Olympus or its profitability.

Nope. Need another demonstrable game-changer, if you’re gonna go up against the Canikon machine and win back market share. As much as I hate to say it, I think this means a “full-sized” mirrorless with EVF/OVF capability and a next-gen Sony sensor. All in a completely re-designed body.

Which takes time and money.

And Mr. Terada? He would be out of his ever-lovin’ mind to give anything, any hint, away concerning the new flagship body. The competition would love it to death, yes? Despite the fact that it will create turmoil and furor and despair among the Olympus loyal – along with a certain amount of animosity directed squarely at his generalship of the battle – he’s best to launch as many smokescreens and deliver as many messages which imply but never directly state just what Olympus is up to. His battle at the moment is for time, precious time-to-market, with no real weapons to hand.

The baseline of this analysis is optimistic, reflecting my sense that Olympus, though they have done some pretty idiotic things over the last few years, ain’t all stupid by any means.

Meanwhile, I’m going to relax and continue with what gear I have. It has plenty of capability I haven’t fully explored, and there are still plenty of holes in my knowledge of the craft which I need to fill.


John

Grumpy Hec
5th October 2012, 06:45 AM
This debate is getting to the core questions in my view albeit deviating slightly from my point even if it is part of the issue.

Various comments have been correctly made about what market niche Olympus will go for with the new camera and the cost of development. This then brings in the revenue generated verses cost etc, etc.

I think that this quote goes some way, in my view, to answer that as well as pick up on my point about my own position, seemingly shared by others, on body size and usability


Need another demonstrable game-changer, if you’re gonna go up against the Canikon machine and win back market share. As much as I hate to say it, I think this means a “full-sized” mirrorless with EVF/OVF capability and a next-gen Sony sensor. All in a completely re-designed body.
John

YES

Olympus needs another game changer which distinguishes it from the rest. Continue developing the m4/3 line with the PEN and OMD but alongside that compete in the "full size" market with high quality sensors, fast accurate focuing, big ISO range as well as in camera stuff like wifi, remote control via wifi, GPS for geo tagging, hyper focal distance displays and controls etc.

In short a high quality build, weather proof, with superb IQ, brilliant screen, mirrorless and best of breed EVF and some excellent, useful, facilities built in. Something to set it apart whilst using the high quality 4/3 glass which already exists.

Easy really !

Hec

Chevvyf1
5th October 2012, 07:42 AM
...


YES

1. Olympus needs another game changer which distinguishes it from the rest. Continue developing the m4/3 line with the PEN and OMD but alongside that compete in the "full size" market with high quality sensors, fast accurate focuing, big ISO range as well as in camera stuff like wifi, remote control via wifi, GPS for geo tagging, hyper focal distance displays and controls etc.

2. In short a high quality build, weather proof, with superb IQ, brilliant screen, mirrorless and best of breed EVF and some excellent, useful, facilities built in. Something to set it apart whilst using the high quality 4/3 glass which already exists.

Easy really !

Hec


?1. So estimate, how much £ or $ will such a ... full size ... " be priced at ?

?2. But, and I am not Tecnical here ... I understood that they "Technology of the M4/3 cannot operate the lenses of 4/3 as the E-5 does to get max IQ becuase of deign incompatability ? "

?3. Who would buy this "... full size ..." ? What chance is there of gaining Majority Market Share ?

?4. Are the aforementioned "market gaps" not filled by *anikon ?

Grumpy Hec
5th October 2012, 11:42 AM
Iintersting and valid points to which I do not have definitive answers but why should that stop me having a go......


?1. So estimate, how much £ or $ will such a ... full size ... " be priced at ? On past history it would be £1200 plus
?2. But, and I am not Tecnical here ... I understood that they "Technology of the M4/3 cannot operate the lenses of 4/3 as the E-5 does to get max IQ becuase of deign incompatability ? "
Indeed; which is why Olympus are apparently looking at the issue.
?3. Who would buy this "... full size ..." ? What chance is there of gaining Majority Market Share ? For full size read mid size as in the E series which is different to Canikon etc which tend to be larger. The market would be those wanting the smaller size of 4/3 but not as small as m4/3. To be precise those of us who have been making these comments. This is not going to be a majority market share so only Olympus can decide if it is worthwhile for them
?4. Are the aforementioned "market gaps" not filled by *anikon ?I personally do not believe so for the size reasons mentioned above. Also if the offering is sufficiently innovative, as the OMD for instance, it could be unique and thus carve out it a wider market gap. If the will/ability to invest is there it can be done.

In the final analysis it's up to Olympus if they want to, or indeed can, invest enough to go for it. The easier option would be a smaller OMD style body to join that product line. However that brings us back to my very original point that for me that is not want I want and so I could/would take my custom elsewhere. If Olmpus decide that E system users are not to be supported with similar size bodies then so be it and we have the option of switching to smaller bodies or going to another marque altogther. I am most likely to do the latter as already stated for reasons also already stated.

cheers

Hec

Chevvyf1
5th October 2012, 11:56 AM
G Hec, just popped in to read your admirable replies :) ... now going to digest them over lunch :)

yorky
5th October 2012, 12:42 PM
+1 Hec and Roy


I haven't posted here in a while (work, degree study, blah, blah) but I always check on how everyone is doing when I can and when I saw Hec's post it actually encapsulated everything I have been thinking.
All my E cameras have battery packs on. My OM's had power winders. I have large hands and I just find anything smaller than an E-620 a little uncomfortable to use. I have tried the OMD with the grip and it is still a little too small and I don't want to have to buy m4/3 lenses.
I understand why Olympus is going the way it is going in terms of m4/3 etc, - understand, but selfishly don't agree.
I was hoping that there would be an E-7 or an E-50 ( I had even started saving up the pennies) but I honestly don't think there will be and for those of us who don't want to move the m4/3 way, we will be left with what we might consider a compromise in order to continue using Olympus or a move to another marque.
I have started thinking about the latter (even looking at cameras). If Olympus come out with a larger camera than the OMD for 4/3 before I make the jump, then I may stay. I love the Zuiko lenses. I know its stupidly emotive and immature, but I feel as let down by Olympus now as I did when the OM's bit the dust all those years ago.

I totally agree with the above, I find it difficult to understand the attitude of the company that can consider making all their fomer customers cameras obsolete and expect them to invest in a completly new system. I was very happy with my E5 and lenses but unless there is a a change of company attitude to former customers I shall probably revert at great financial loss to Nikon et al. They at least keeep faith with users.

paulthomas
5th October 2012, 12:56 PM
I long ago gave up believing anything Terada says. I well remember his assurances that the introduction of m4/3rds would in no way threaten 4/3rds. We all now know otherwise. The technical solution to 4/3rds lenses is clear and simple. It's called a DSLR. Perhaps Terada and his cronies should spend less time in their ivory tower with their heads where the sun never shines and more time trying to understand the needs, and the anger, of customers such as me who have invested a very large amount of money, money for which we have had to work hard and save long, into 4/3rds only to have the system scrapped and "replaced" by a toy. Olympus I HATE YOU :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Grumpy Hec
5th October 2012, 02:44 PM
G Hec, just popped in to read your admirable replies :) ... now going to digest them over lunch :)

Hope they don't give you indigestion :D
Hec

Chevvyf1
5th October 2012, 03:19 PM
Hope they don't give you indigestion :D
Hec

NOPE ! I whizzed out meet up with a Gundog trainer Lady for Session on Sunday early am with puppy :eek: ... then had to collect my Duc Monster from the Bike service, Mot & new cambelts and then shoot over to pick up from school :) shattered now - cannot read too *zzz *zzz

JohnI
5th October 2012, 03:29 PM
. . . and a couple of cents more to Hec's perceptive commentary . . .

John

Iintersting and valid points to which I do not have definitive answers but why should that stop me having a go......


?1. So estimate, how much £ or $ will such a ... full size ... " be priced at ?On past history it would be £1200 plus

Agreed (shudder, whimper!)
?2. But, and I am not Tecnical here ... I understood that they "Technology of the M4/3 cannot operate the lenses of 4/3 as the E-5 does to get max IQ becuase of deign incompatability ? "Indeed; which is why Olympus are apparently looking at the issue.

The somewhat astonishing thing to me - given the intensity of the 4/3rds micro 4/3rds uproar - is that the ONLY essential difference in design is that the distance from the lens mount to the sensor is shorter on the micro 4/3rds than it is on the 4/3rds, thus allowing a more compact body. It is still a 4/3rds sensor, the lens alignment is still telecentric as far as I know, etc., etc.. My understanding is the real problem that micro 4/3rds has with most 4/3rds lenses is that they are PDAF rather than CDAF (all micro 4/3rds specific lenses are CDAF) and m4/3rds cannot manage competitive autofocus speed for PDAF lenses. The distance-to-sensor problem has already been addressed with the 4/3rds lens adapter.
?3. Who would buy this "... full size ..." ? What chance is there of gaining Majority Market Share ?For full size read mid size as in the E series which is different to Canikon etc which tend to be larger. The market would be those wanting the smaller size of 4/3 but not as small as m4/3. To be precise those of us who have been making these comments. This is not going to be a majority market share so only Olympus can decide if it is worthwhile for them

Here's where we get into the "big fast glass" problem. Have you noticed that the lens lineup for m4/3rds is very nearly nothing but primes? One advantage of a prime lens is that you can make a very fast prime which is at the same time very small and light. Not so with zooms, unfortunately, which is why the fastest zooms (no matter which manufacturer you choose) are also proportionately their largest and heaviest lenses. There is no magic bullet which will shrink the 4/3rds 7-14, 12-60, 50-200 lineup to sizes ergonomically compatible with the EM-5: they require that much glass to be as fast and sharp as they are. An equally important factor in this equasion is handling. Big glass balances and handles best with a fullsized body. Can you imagine attempting quickly acquiring your image target with an EM-5/90-250 combination? 'Twould be like trying to align a pimple on an elephant's butt by aligning the elephant. Last but not least is that a preponderance of professional photographers demand fast zooms for their work (rather than a bagful of primes) and a body which can be rather seriously "abused" daily.


?4. Are the aforementioned "market gaps" not filled by *anikon ?I personally do not believe so for the size reasons mentioned above. Also if the offering is sufficiently innovative, as the OMD for instance, it could be unique and thus carve out it a wider market gap. If the will/ability to invest is there it can be done.

Once again, agree with Hec. Being in the position to offer the smallest and lightest system which meets professional demand - exactly the platform the "new E" and the SHG lenses would offer - would be a game changer. Because the pros would like nothing better than big fast glass in a package you could drop into your coat pocket . . . not to mention a myriad of enthusiasts.

Not only that, but has it occurred to anyone that - if and when Oly solves the PDAF/CDAF conundrum - one could create an entirely new lineup out of the "legacy" SHG glass by
simply building the lens-to-sensor distance now provided by the camera mounted adaptor into the lens itself?

Remember also that mirrorless is potentially a much sturdier design than the traditional mirrored SLR, as you do not have the delicate mechanism for rotating and positioning/repositioning the mirror.

In the final analysis it's up to Olympus if they want to, or indeed can, invest enough to go for it. The easier option would be a smaller OMD style body to join that product line. However that brings us back to my very original point that for me that is not want I want and so I could/would take my custom elsewhere. If Olmpus decide that E system users are not to be supported with similar size bodies then so be it and we have the option of switching to smaller bodies or going to another marque altogther. I am most likely to do the latter as already stated for reasons also already stated.

cheers

Hec

crimbo
6th October 2012, 04:53 PM
Well one game changer would be 4k video

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution

It will be a m4/3 body with appropriate adaptation to run 4/3 lenses

It had better have a good battery with battery grip... for longevity and power for the lenses....


....if it ever emerges.....