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View Full Version : E-5 JPEG versus RAW Colours


graham_jester
13th December 2010, 06:23 PM
I'm curious to hear of other E-5 users experiences in respect of colour comparison, JPEG vs RAW.
So far I've left WB on Auto and note that, when viewed in Lightroom 3.3, the JPEG images all seem to have a slight 'red' hue, compared to the RAW versions, which seem to be closer to the actual, seen with the eye.
Regards
Graham

theMusicMan
13th December 2010, 07:18 PM
But RAW files are always a bit 'plainer' than jpg's. The RAW file hasn't had anything done to it, the jpg has been processed either in camera or in PP.

Barr1e
13th December 2010, 07:58 PM
Noticed this on human hair this weekend.
Now Elements 9 has a RAW plugin - I shall just be shooting in RAW from now on.

Regards. Barr1e

Makonde
13th December 2010, 08:14 PM
I can't say I've noticed this hue. I am using ACR/Photoshop for RAW development. I think the out-of-camera jpegs from normal lighting situations are excellent (All settings especially Picture Mode natural/standard). Do you see the same thing in Viewer2, or is it the way Lightroom is interpreting the RAW?

Graham_of_Rainham
13th December 2010, 08:31 PM
One of the simplest explanations of why to shoot in RAW

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/u-raw-files.shtml

I shoot RAW + 1024x768 jpg that way I have thumbnails sized to match my laptop. I then "process" whatever RAW Files I like, having quickly selected them from the small jpegs.

Makonde
13th December 2010, 08:57 PM
I've reverted to shooting RAW + LSF instead of just RAW since I got the E-5 because the OOC jpegs much of the time are so good, my confidence in them is growing - getting the full size jpegs saves time. Whereas with the E520 I have not much confidence in the jpegs, so did nearly everything from RAW. For longer-term keepers, I save the RAW and a tif processed from it.

graham_jester
13th December 2010, 08:58 PM
Thanks for the various inputs.
Whilst I take the point that RAW files may be a bit plainer than JPEGs; with my previous E-30, when viewed in LR3, both JPEG and RAW images looked the same colour.
Interestingly, as suggested by Makonde, I've just checked some images in Viewer 2 and there both JPEG and RAW images look the same as each other and without the 'red' tint.
It seems, therefore, that LR3 is doing something to the colour of the JPEG image.
To Barr1e's point that 'he will be shooting in RAW from now on', does anyone know if the E-5's RAW image still takes some advantage of Olympus's investment in TruePic V+/Fine Detail Processor enhancements; i.e. E-5 RAWs have been enhanced, as well as JPEGs?
Regards
Graham

Makonde
13th December 2010, 09:14 PM
Another thought: have you got both camera and Lightroom set to the same colour space or is one in sRGB and the other in Adobe RGB? (with the E-5 you can change colourspace setting)

graham_jester
14th December 2010, 12:27 AM
Hi Keith
Thanks for the suggestion..............I think you're on the right track!
With the E-5 and E-30 before that, I had Colour Space set to Adobe RGB, along with my HP Printer, as I thought to align with LR3 Camera Profile = Adobe Standard. This setup worked fine with E-30 and associated prints. I also carry out monthly Monitor colour calibration checks.
So, as I've said, in LR3 JPEGs display 'red' tint, RAWs look natural.
On closer inspection in Viewer 2, both JPEG and RAW look the same and I can now see a slight 'red' tint in them.
However, if in Viewer 2, I change RAW colour space from Adobe RGB to sRGB, then 'red' tint disappears completely!
I've also now gone back and checked some E-30 JPEG/RAW images and can see, in Lightroom, that there is a difference between them, but it is nowhere near as pronounced as with E-5 images.
So thanks, it seems the problem(?) is colour space related, so I suppose one solution would be to go back to sRGB throughout. Although I think LR3 still remains as Adobe Standard (no optional profiles as per Canon and Nikon).
However, I'm not keen to do that because when using the E-30, I discovered that Adobe RGB throughout definitely showed more print detail.
Perhaps I need to sound out Adobe about this issue.
Regards
Graham

Makonde
14th December 2010, 09:17 AM
Interesting. Fits with my not noticing any difference in ACR/Photoshop where I always stick with sRGB

Ian
14th December 2010, 09:27 AM
Thanks for the various inputs.
Whilst I take the point that RAW files may be a bit plainer than JPEGs; with my previous E-30, when viewed in LR3, both JPEG and RAW images looked the same colour.
Interestingly, as suggested by Makonde, I've just checked some images in Viewer 2 and there both JPEG and RAW images look the same as each other and without the 'red' tint.
It seems, therefore, that LR3 is doing something to the colour of the JPEG image.
To Barr1e's point that 'he will be shooting in RAW from now on', does anyone know if the E-5's RAW image still takes some advantage of Olympus's investment in TruePic V+/Fine Detail Processor enhancements; i.e. E-5 RAWs have been enhanced, as well as JPEGs?
Regards
Graham

The appearance of a RAW file is entirely dependant on the defaults that your RAW conversion software applies. If you are using Olympus software (like Master, Studio, or Viewer 2) then the RAW file will be indistinguishable from the camera JPEG because the RAW converter starts off with the same settings as the camera used to create the JPEG. But use Lightroom, for example, and the RAW preview will look different.

All said and done, you do raise some good points about the contribution of the TruePic image processor. In theory, it shouldn't have any effect on a RAW file, but the evidence suggests that the quality of RAW files is constantly improving with new models. so it's certainly a mystery. I will try to get an answer out of Olympus' Toshi Terada when I see him at the end of the week.

Ian

Makonde
14th December 2010, 09:37 AM
When you first open a RAW in Viewer, for a few moments you seem to get a default setting before the camera settings are applied.

Could you also ask him what exactly is lost when an ORF is converted to a DNG?

Also, do *any* camera settings (other than those controlling the amount of light and sensitivity, and the noise reduction operation, and the IS presumably) affect how the information is recorded in the ORF?

Barr1e
14th December 2010, 09:46 AM
When you first open a RAW in Viewer, for a few moments you seem to get a default setting before the camera settings are applied.

Could you also ask him what exactly is lost when an ORF is converted to a DNG?

Also, do *any* camera settings (other than those controlling the amount of light and sensitivity, and the noise reduction operation, and the IS presumably) affect how the information is recorded in the ORF?

I was just pondering over the same question in my mind walking back from the sorting office this morning - I too would like to know whether camera settings have a bearing on ORF files.
I was about to return the camera to Factory Settings, but will wait to see if Ian gleans any info from Toshi Terada.

Regards. Barr1e

Ian
14th December 2010, 09:54 AM
When you first open a RAW in Viewer, for a few moments you seem to get a default setting before the camera settings are applied.

Could you also ask him what exactly is lost when an ORF is converted to a DNG?

Also, do *any* camera settings (other than those controlling the amount of light and sensitivity, and the noise reduction operation, and the IS presumably) affect how the information is recorded in the ORF?

I don't expect Toshi will be able to answer the question about DNG as Olympus don't support DNG. But I could ask someone at Adobe.

Ian

OlyPaul
14th December 2010, 10:05 AM
One thing to bear in mind is that Lightroom works on self generated previews and LR previews are proberly srgb and indeed any embedded previews in the file itself or DNG embedded previews are indeed in the srgb space.

Zuiko
14th December 2010, 10:19 AM
Going slightly off topic, Ian, could you ask Toshi if Olympus are surprised by the enthusiasm and demand for the E-5 and if this is likely to influence future development of DSLRs?

Thanks

graham_jester
14th December 2010, 10:25 AM
Many thanks for everyone's inputs, it's great to receive such support.
Could I just ask all of you that have responded whether you use sRGB or Adobe RGB as your default camera setting (Keith has already answered this point). Also, if using LR3, what Export setting: sRGB or Adobe RGB?
Thanks
Graham

Ian
14th December 2010, 10:30 AM
One thing to bear in mind is that Lightroom works on self generated previews and LR previews are proberly srgb and indeed any embedded previews in the file itself or DNG embedded previews are indeed in the srgb space.

Interesting point. The default working space for Lightroom is ProPhoto RGB, which is substantially wider than Adobe RGB, but I don't know if what you see on the screen is resampled using a different space - I will try to find out!

Ian

graham_jester
14th December 2010, 11:13 AM
I'm now wondering whether this 'red tint' difference between sRGB and Adobe RGB is actually an Olympus quirk, rather than an Adobe LR3 one.
When I first got the E-5, I left settings on Factory default, which meant I was using sRGB; it was only more recently that I moved to Adobe RGB.
I've now been experimenting, using Viewer 2 and find the following:
- if I change the colour space of an sRGB RAW image to Adobe RGB, it goes redder.
- if I change an Adobe RGB image to sRGB, then the converse happens and the image goes less red.

Ian, do you have an E-5 technical contact point in Olympus where I could report this issue and anticipate a reasonably quick response?
Thanks
Graham

Ian
14th December 2010, 11:33 AM
I'm now wondering whether this 'red tint' difference between sRGB and Adobe RGB is actually an Olympus quirk, rather than an Adobe LR3 one.
When I first got the E-5, I left settings on Factory default, which meant I was using sRGB; it was only more recently that I moved to Adobe RGB.
I've now been experimenting, using Viewer 2 and find the following:
- if I change the colour space of an sRGB RAW image to Adobe RGB, it goes redder.
- if I change an Adobe RGB image to sRGB, then the converse happens and the image goes less red.

Ian, do you have an E-5 technical contact point in Olympus where I could report this issue and anticipate a reasonably quick response?
Thanks
Graham

There isn't any such thing as an sRGB or Adobe RGB RAW image. A RAW image has no colour space applied to it. The colour space is applied during the conversion of the RAW file, by which time it's no longer RAW.

The first question is - is your monitor calibrated and is the colour space configured correctly and the driver loaded in the video card?

If your display is calibrated correctly, you shouldn't see a shift in colour between sRGB and Adobe RGB renditions of the same image processed from a RAW file, as long as you are viewing in a colour managed environment.

Remember that many web browsers are not colour managed, and the ones that are, like FireFox, may not be configured to respect colour spaces by default.

The reason I'm explaining this is that it seems that the colour shifting you are describing are classic symptoms of colour management problems.

Ian

graham_jester
14th December 2010, 12:45 PM
Hi Ian
Many thanks for your informative response.
Yes, I calibrate my monitor every month using Eye-One and have just checked that it is using the latest profile I created. Indeed, until now, I've been very pleased with how close the prints from my HP printer match what I see on the screen!
I take the point about RAW not having any colour space applied, but what I was describing was what I see when I view RAW images in Viewer 2's RAW Development window. As you know there, under Basic2 Tab, you can alter certain parameters; one of which is Colour Space.
So when I toggle sRGB to Adobe RGB, or vice versa, that's when I see the colour change.
Interestingly, performing the same test with E-30 RAW images produces no change in colour, whether they are sRGB or Adobe RGB.......it's only happening with the E-5 images.
Perhaps the time has come for me to 'surrender', settle on sRGB and concentrate on taking pictures!
Seriously, many thanks for your patience, help and support.......and that goes for everyone else that's given me feedback.
Regards
Graham

Ian
14th December 2010, 03:18 PM
Graham, I owe you an apology. I have done exactly as you have in Viewer 2 and I can now see the additional red you see when toggling colour space in RAW development mode.

I must say, though, that I see this with E-30 RAW files too - now that I have tried it.

Where I don't see a visual difference is when loading an Adobe RGB file (in the case I tested just now, an EXIF-TIFF exported from Viewer 2, into Photoshop, and then converting the profile from Adobe RGB to sRGB.

Clearly some of the camera's red space is clipped by the restrictive nature of sRGB compared to Adobe RGB, or better described is that Adobe RGB includes red space that would be lost in sRGB.

When converting from Adobe RGB to sRGB, it would seem that Adobe's algorithm in Photoshop is able to maintain a balance that avoids one hue dominating after the conversion.

Ian

graham_jester
14th December 2010, 03:51 PM
Hi Ian
Thanks, but absolutely no apology required...........I'm just relieved that I'm not alone in 'seeing red'!
I am interested in your view, though, as to the best way forward.
As I think I explained earlier, on the positive side, using Adobe RGB (with my E-30) through to the print process certainly has showed greater detail in the printed image.
Now on the downside, my 12 month old grandson just doesn't have 'red' hair!
Do you think it's a question for Olympus, or just accept, ignore and go sRGB?
Many thanks.
Graham

OlyPaul
14th December 2010, 04:13 PM
Hi Ian

I am interested in your view, though, as to the best way forward.
As I think I explained earlier, on the positive side, using Adobe RGB (with my E-30) through to the print process certainly has showed greater detail in the printed image.
Now on the downside, my 12 month old grandson just doesn't have 'red' hair!
Do you think it's a question for Olympus, or just accept, ignore and go sRGB?
Many thanks.
Graham

Hi Graham, I'm not sure what you mean by that statement as colour space has no effect on detail or sharpness , even in LR3 the detail tab allows viewing as a greyscale image so adjusting detail and sharpness can be done without the distraction of colour.

I think I would be looking at your processing if shooting raw or camera settings if shooting jpeg with the E-5 rather than colour space. :)

Ian
14th December 2010, 04:21 PM
Hi Ian
Thanks, but absolutely no apology required...........I'm just relieved that I'm not alone in 'seeing red'!
I am interested in your view, though, as to the best way forward.
As I think I explained earlier, on the positive side, using Adobe RGB (with my E-30) through to the print process certainly has showed greater detail in the printed image.
Now on the downside, my 12 month old grandson just doesn't have 'red' hair!
Do you think it's a question for Olympus, or just accept, ignore and go sRGB?
Many thanks.
Graham

I would say adjust the colour settings until you get what you feel is a normal result. You may need to remember the general bias for colours you need to change and use those by default - a sort of profile. You might find it good to profile your camera too.

Ian

Kiwi Paul
14th December 2010, 04:45 PM
Here's an interesting article on sRGB vs Adobe RGB.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/adobe-rgb.htm

and another that confirms the first view.

http://www.jseaman.com/articles/srgb.html

Comments?

Paul

Ian
14th December 2010, 05:25 PM
Here's an interesting article on sRGB vs Adobe RGB.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/adobe-rgb.htm

and another that confirms the first view.

http://www.jseaman.com/articles/srgb.html

Comments?

Paul

Well, Ken Rockwell's point of view is well out of date. In a proper colour managed environment with a good quality screen and printer, Adobe RGB colour space can be accommodated visually and even exceeded in some cases. Web browsers, like Firefox and Safari can support standard colour spaces like sRGB and Adobe RGB. It's pointless banging the drum for sRGB as some kind of standard to aim for any more.

Ian

OlyPaul
14th December 2010, 05:31 PM
Well, Ken Rockwell's point of view is well out of date. In a proper colour managed environment with a good quality screen and printer, Adobe RGB colour space can be accommodated visually and even exceeded in some cases. Web browsers, like Firefox and Safari can support standard colour spaces like sRGB and Adobe RGB. It's pointless banging the drum for sRGB as some kind of standard to aim for any more.

Ian

I agree with Ian and if you are using Lightroom as it is meant to be used then its a moot point anyway as everything is in the largest colour space possible and you just choose the approriate colour space for the output/device as it is needed without compromising the original file or having to make multiple copies in different colour spaces.;)

graham_jester
14th December 2010, 06:46 PM
Hi Ian and Paul
Thanks, Ian, for your suggestion about the possibility of creating a suitable profile; it's something I'll now look into.
Paul, as to my comment about achieving greater print detail when using Adobe RGB..........
I've now been using Lightroom for about a year, about the same time as I upgraded to the E-30. Initially I used sRGB and was happy with the results.
As I've said elsewhere I do calibrate my monitor each month, primarily in pursuit of obtaining correct colours and matching screen with printer results.
My HP Printer is not too sophisticated and does not allow 'colour management by LR3'. However, it does allow the choice of sRGB or Adobe RGB (1998) and it was when I was experimenting with some Macro flower shots that I noticed that setting the printer to Adobe RGB produced more detail in the plants than sRGB did. As to why this is the case, I don't really know.
So, given that for Olympus RAW, LR3 only offers the Adobe Standard camera profile, it was at that point that I decided to adopt the 'Adobe' trail: camera>>LR3>>printer and it has worked well for the E-30.
Now, hopefully with this group's help, I'll do even better with the E-5!
Regards
Graham

OlyPaul
14th December 2010, 08:23 PM
Graham are you sure your printer does not allow LR3 to manage the printer, I've not yet come across a photo printer that could not be colour managed by a Adobe product.

It's sometimes a little difficult to suss out where the settings are in LR3 if you are not familer with it.

Where it says managed by printer which is default click on "other" and this will bring up a list of printer profile if you have them for LR3 to manage the printer by.
http://olypaul.smugmug.com/photos/1126432987_Xrodt-XL.jpg

graham_jester
14th December 2010, 09:13 PM
Hi Paul
Thanks for your interest and feedback; but, no, my HP printer does not allow for this function.
In actual fact it's a Printer/Scanner/Copier All-In-One type and, somewhat strangely, the previous model I had did actually have that feature.
Anyway, I have an E-mail from HP confirming that I can only choose sRGB or Adobe RGB, but I haven't found this to be a problem; in fact I get very good quality prints.
To help with this, I do only use HP Genuine inks and HP Premium Plus quality photo paper.
Best Regards
Graham